The Mega **Management Company** thread

Jo King

The management companies pursue the service charge under the covenants in the lease, not on foot of a shareholder agreement. The Residential Tenancies Act states "Rent or other charges". It is not necessary that the service charges are rent merely that the are being sought pursuant to a lease. Are you aware of any cases in court where the owner has submitted to the court that the court does not have jurisdiction?

Milk & Honey

markpb wrote: »

We've never had a problem getting a court to accept it. I know you're trying to prove a loin here about management companies being landlords but you're riding solo on this one, the legal system doesn't agree with you.

It is clear the legal system does not agree with YOU

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/social-housing-clawback-ends-1708458.html

markpb

Milk & Honey wrote: »

It is clear the legal system does not agree with YOU

That's interesting, I wasn't aware of any court cases relating to this matter. Nevertheless, one judge does not make the law - plenty of other judges have previously accepted and ruled in court cases from management companies without recourse to the PRTB so obviously they disagree. It will be interesting to see what the outcome of this is.

Paulw

From this article, it is a reserved ruling, so may be appealed. Also, it seems that there is currently legislation going through the Oireachtas to remove apartment owners from the Residential Tenancies Act 2004.

Interesting time ahead, until this is passed.

Milk & Honey

You cannot cite any cases where the point has been argued before. This is a Circuit Court decision which is binding on the District Court. All judges of the District Court will be bound to follow this deciosion from now on. It is unlikely that any judge of the Circuit Court will ovwerturn this decision. The cases currently in the system will have to be dismissed. All management companies will have to register all of the apartments in their blocks. Any disputes will have to go through the PRTB.

Paulw

Milk & Honey wrote: »

All management companies will have to register all of the apartments in their blocks. Any disputes will have to go through the PRTB.

I actually can't see this happening in the near future, and if/when the new bill removes bought aparments from the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, then the courts will again have to hear these issues.

Between now and then, I can't see the PRTB getting involved nor want to get involved. Too much of a new workload on them for all that.

Milk & Honey

Paulw wrote: »

I actually can't see this happening in the near future, and if/when the new bill removes bought aparments from the Residential Tenancies Act 2004, then the courts will again have to hear these issues.

Between now and then, I can't see the PRTB getting involved nor want to get involved. Too much of a new workload on them for all that.

The PRTB is a statutary body. They have to do the work assigned to them by law. They cannot pick and choose what type of disputes they will deal with. In any case the Circuit Court can order them to deal with a dispute in some situations.

Paulw

Milk & Honey wrote: »

The PRTB is a statutary body. They have to do the work assigned to them by law. They cannot pick and choose what type of disputes they will deal with. In any case the Circuit Court can order them to deal with a dispute in some situations.

True, but they can drag their feet quite well in dealing with any disputes lodged with them.

I think most will wait for the new legislation to be passed, and then go back to the courts directly.

PIMPHO

Can a management company claim back Vat on purchases on services?

The_Conductor

PIMPHO wrote: »

Can a management company claim back Vat on purchases on services?

Only if they are registered for VAT- and in which case they would be obliged to charge VAT at the 13.5% on Management Charges........?

In short- no.

plasmaguy

Can residents choose who their management company are?

I mean can they put it out to tender each year?

And get a cheaper one if the current one is over-charging?

What does the competition authority have to say on this? Surely it's illegal for one management company to have a monopoly on a development.

The_Conductor

plasmaguy wrote: »

Can residents choose who their management company are?

I mean can they put it out to tender each year?

And get a cheaper one if the current one is over-charging?

What does the competition authority have to say on this? Surely it's illegal for one management company to have a monopoly on a development.

Residents have no say in their management company or management agent.
Owners of units are 'members' of their management company- and they can elect their management agent, as they see fit, at an annual AGM. It can be put out to tender each year. I would not automatically assume that if you get a cheaper tender that it implies the incumbent is overcharging- you'd be very surprised at what it costs to run a managed estate- but of course you will have the breakdown in your annual accounts.

I think you are confusing Management Companies and Management Agents. The entire complex or estate is vested in the Management Company. Normally it would have been a condition of the original planning application that a management company be formed- and that the entire development be vested in the company. There is nothing unusual or illegal about this- its entirely normal.

The problem is that in many cases developers have controlled Management Companies ad infinitum- and it has been very difficult to remove their nominated directors from the boards. This has been a combination of articles of association giving very favourable terms to the developer and the general apathy most people have for attending AGMs- so there simply isn't enough people present to get rid of them.

The new bill before the Oireachtas addresses many of these concerns (I haven't seen the final version?)

manchild

Got my bill for court costs seems i am being ripped off

Do i have any redress in this issue. dont wany to go into detail but lost a court case and have to pay costs so it seems i am being milked

The_Conductor

manchild wrote: »

Got my bill for court costs seems i am being ripped off

Do i have any redress in this issue. dont wany to go into detail but lost a court case and have to pay costs so it seems i am being milked

Without further information- its impossible to say.
Legal costs can be considerable- you can almost pull a figure out of thin air. You are enittled to a breakdown of what you're paying for of course- and should insist on it- but if you've lost, and had costs awarded against you- unless you appeal (which will increase the legal costs even more), you've been ruled against.......

Jo King

manchild wrote: »

Got my bill for court costs seems i am being ripped off

Do i have any redress in this issue. dont wany to go into detail but lost a court case and have to pay costs so it seems i am being milked

First off, who do you think is milking you? You can have costs taxed, those your own solicitor charges and those a third party is seeking to recover. Taxing will generally reduce your bill by a third.

manchild

Yes the bill is gone for taxing so lets hope the 1/3 rule is applied. It is more the opposition engineers reports that seem excessive to me.

cathi

Im paying in excess of 18oo for larch hill, santry
You would think with this fee you would not be left with a leaking roof over your head for months on end despite weekly phonecalls and promises it will be done asap. ..ridiculous

Paulw

cathi wrote: »

Im paying in excess of 18oo for larch hill, santry
You would think with this fee you would not be left with a leaking roof over your head for months on end despite weekly phonecalls and promises it will be done asap. ..ridiculous

Maybe you should increase that to daily phone calls? That, and write a registered letter to the directors of the management company (not management agent) demanding your problem be resolved.

markpb

Paulw wrote: »

Maybe you should increase that to daily phone calls? That, and write a registered letter to the directors of the management company (not management agent) demanding your problem be resolved.

And by luck, they already know :-) I have PM'd Cathi about this this morning.

LawnMower Man

The developer where we have an apartment had not handed over the management company to the apartment owners for years recently we all got together and had an EGM and voted him off the company and appointed new directors and since then we have appointed a good management company to tidy up the development.

Now not sure can anyone enlighten me on this but I got a letter yesterday from the CRO saying we are being fined and accruing penaltys for not filing annual accounts, now we literally just took over the company 10 weeks ago and was wondering are they looking for accounts from when the developer had control of the company? or looking for the few weeks of accounts we have since we took over? Any help appreciated on how to proceed with this.

The_Conductor

LawnMower Man wrote: »

The developer where we have an apartment had not handed over the management company to the apartment owners for years recently we all got together and had an EGM and voted him off the company and appointed new directors and since then we have appointed a good management company to tidy up the development.

Now not sure can anyone enlighten me on this but I got a letter yesterday from the CRO saying we are being fined and accruing penaltys for not filing annual accounts, now we literally just took over the company 10 weeks ago and was wondering are they looking for accounts from when the developer had control of the company? or looking for the few weeks of accounts we have since we took over? Any help appreciated on how to proceed with this.

Its previous years accounts that are missing. It is critical that these are filed as expediously as possible. If they are not- and the company is unlisted- it could mean that ownership of any assets may revert to the Minister for Finance- and it could take a High Court case to get it reinstated.

You need to contact a solicitor specialising in company law and get them to act on behalf of the Management Company as quickly as possible. They will also advise you on how to respond to the CRO.

Do not ignore the CRO and its requests- if the company is delisted- its no longer possible for anyone to buy or sell units in the development- and all owners would also be in breach of their mortgage covenents.

Shane

LawnMower Man

Thanks for the info much appreciated.

Dubsta

Our developement is going through something simular at the moment now that all of the units have been sold....

But like numerous posts on this thread the management company are useless and have "US" in bad debt by not chasing people to pay fees which has resulted in the place turning into a "Ghetto" :mad:

Thing is now there are some residents that want to keep the MGT company for a further 6 months to see if they change... But the same company has been mentioned here back as far as 2002 and it looks like nothing's gona change

What to do?????

antoinolachtnai

I presume you are talking about a management agent rather than a management company. (The management company is the company owned and run by the owners of the apartments, the agency is the company that does all the various tasks on their behalf)

I don't know much about your situation, but my suggestion would be that your management board begins the process now of selecting a management agent for the period 2010-2014.

To do this properly will take three or four months work anyway, between seeking agents, interviewing, checking references and visiting sites.

Your existing management company would be considered as one of the options.

Dubsta

Yeah I ment the people that are currently looking after the development, there a nightmare....

I personally have not opted to go on the com as I dont have the time but do like to pass on any info I can.

Thanks

merlynthewizard

What needs to happen is that the management company has to prove that the directors live on the development and are not connected to the developer then we would have a fair system. Residents/Owners then vote in a management team who in turn pick a management agent.

Spoke with all 3 main parties on this and the Joan Bruton said new legislation was coming in soon. She also expressed that the idea was what was needed.

Waiting to go to court so I can express my dissatisfaction with the Management agent as they won't let us meet the Directors,won't give and contact details and admitted they don't live on site.

I am sure they are the developers but I've got a petition going which I'm getting signed for all the apartments (312 of them) to take to the courts to express the dissatisfaction with the whole set-up.

Looking forward to it and am planning to go full-time on it for the next few months.

The_Conductor

As the owner of a unit- you are a member of the Management Company- and entitled to audited annual accounts, a list of directors with contact details, and a list of all other shareholders. If this is not supplied to you- the Management Company are in breach of Company Law, full stop.

Paulw

merlynthewizard wrote: »

What needs to happen is that the management company has to prove that the directors live on the development and are not connected to the developer then we would have a fair system.

Waiting to go to court so I can express my dissatisfaction with the Management agent as they won't let us meet the Directors,won't give and contact details and admitted they don't live on site.

Directors have generally no legal requirement to live in the development. Normally the only requirement is that they are shareholders.

As for where they live, those details must be registered with the CRO, so the information is available to the public (for a fee). Check the CRO website for more information.

Then you can write directly to the directors yourself, and bypass the management agent. That's what we did initially.

merlynthewizard

Paulw wrote: »

Directors have generally no legal requirement to live in the development. Normally the only requirement is that they are shareholders.

As for where they live, those details must be registered with the CRO, so the information is available to the public (for a fee). Check the CRO website for more information.

Then you can write directly to the directors yourself, and bypass the management agent. That's what we did initially.

That's what we are pushing to change. They also should not be linked to the developers.

merlynthewizard

smccarrick wrote: »

As the owner of a unit- you are a member of the Management Company- and entitled to audited annual accounts, a list of directors with contact details, and a list of all other shareholders. If this is not supplied to you- the Management Company are in breach of Company Law, full stop.

Do you have a reference to this law please..thanks