The Mega **Management Company** thread

anotherlostie

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

I presume you are talking about a management agent rather than a management company. (The management company is the company owned and run by the owners of the apartments, the agency is the company that does all the various tasks on their behalf)

I don't know much about your situation, but my suggestion would be that your management board begins the process now of selecting a management agent for the period 2010-2014.

To do this properly will take three or four months work anyway, between seeking agents, interviewing, checking references and visiting sites.

Your existing management company would be considered as one of the options.

Sorry for digging up an old post, but has anyone any pointers on how to go about selecting a new agent? How do you let agents know you are looking for tenders? Do you look up the golden pages and phone them, or is there an easier way of doing it? Just kicking off the process in our development now.

Paulw

anotherlostie wrote: »

Sorry for digging up an old post, but has anyone any pointers on how to go about selecting a new agent? How do you let agents know you are looking for tenders? Do you look up the golden pages and phone them, or is there an easier way of doing it? Just kicking off the process in our development now.

Asking around here is always a good step.

Other than that, checking places like neighbours.ie or golden pages works.

Well Hellooo

An apartment owner (Hitler 2) bully boy tactics expert - has made himself a sole trader so he's in charge all round. Owners in their leafy suburbs don't care but we're paying protection money. I'm not paying till the government !!! (ahem! too busy drinking their heads off in the Dail) bring out legislation.
If an owner takes over it is very difficult to get rid of this person. Some eijits will fall for the charm. You will pay double.
There is no law, anything goes now, they say this is illegal and that is illegal - rubbish. The Mafia are welcome here.
Get agency to give you in writing exactly what service they provide. Get owners to join commitee and always take turns getting three quotes for any jobs needed to avoid 'croneyism.' Do not allow the Agent to recommend someone. They might be getting backhander. Nitpick about accounts and make sure the accounts are transparent. If they're not - then don't pay.
The Auditors may say 'we have not received sundry, miscellaneous, payroll receipts so couldn't do a full audit.' The next line may say 'in our opinion the accounts are okay.' BIG PIECE OF BULL****.(scuse me)
We have to take a stand and say no more nonsense.

nohopengn

anotherlostie wrote: »

Sorry for digging up an old post, but has anyone any pointers on how to go about selecting a new agent? How do you let agents know you are looking for tenders? Do you look up the golden pages and phone them, or is there an easier way of doing it? Just kicking off the process in our development now.

You can request a quote from any Managing Agent - main thing to do is provide a good description of your complex, no. lifts, blocks, age of property. Some agents may want to see insurance claims history.

At our complex we've had a terrible MA. After asking some straight forward questions about invoices, there now seems to be over €250,000 not properly accounted for...

robodonkey

Right folks, some experiences from the coal face.
In all cases below, "you" is "the owners" where the "owners" are on the residents committee.

(1) Controlling the Management Company that runs the development is first on your agenda because without breaking this cosy company <-> agent relationship (they are all linked by years of coining it in the good old days!) you will not be able to (legally) cancel/terminate/renegotiate anything on behalf of the development.

EGM and propose additional directors such that you have voting majority, check CRO and Articles of association for YOUR company to see voting rights etc.

(2) Now you have a majority on the board of your development management company, you need to tender for managing agent. Laborious and time consuming BUT worthwhile. Negotiate their fee for their services based on normal list of criteria (available from the new managing agent governance body - there's a list of "what an agent does" there).
Get 4-5 agents to tender based on same criteria and compare the results!

(3) Now you should tender for all services in the complex. DO NOT LET THE AGENT DO THIS! They too recieve kick-backs (unconfirmed suspicions) and may/may not be acting in your best interest.

(4) Now you have agents pitching best price for their service, and services people doing the same, see if the agent can negotiate a better price on your chosen service/provider. At this stage they may assist the tendering for that service.

(5) Now you terminate contract with the encumbent agent (check your legal contract stuff - chances are the contract is not worth the paper its written on and they will have breached contract all over the place).

(6) Bring in the new agent and work with them, they will guide you along the way. Keep them in check and moinitor/control as much as you can.

(7) Cost reductions / savings on outgoing services in the order of 30-40%, funnel back into sink fund and reduce fees yr 2/3/4

(8) Job done.

(9) Be prepared to see legal posturing from all the incumbents, the cosy gravy train being at an end has them all pissed off. Stand up and get legal advice if you need it, but don's lose sight of the task at hand - taking control of YOUR development.

Thats pretty much it, huge efforts by a committed committe but the above is whats needed. Committee should control company (even if developers are still on board) and by splitting company/agent/services you will not get screwed over.

Call in favours from your residents (accounts/legal advice) and get control.
Wrestle it from the encumbent if you have to.......and good luck!

athtrasna

Well Hellooo wrote: »

I'm not paying till the government !!! (ahem! too busy drinking their heads off in the Dail) bring out legislation.
If an owner takes over it is very difficult to get rid of this person. Some eijits will fall for the charm. You will pay double.
There is no law, anything goes now, they say this is illegal and that is illegal - rubbish. The Mafia are welcome here.
Get agency to give you in writing exactly what service they provide. Get owners to join commitee and always take turns getting three quotes for any jobs needed to avoid 'croneyism.' Do not allow the Agent to recommend someone. They might be getting backhander. Nitpick about accounts and make sure the accounts are transparent. If they're not - then don't pay.
The Auditors may say 'we have not received sundry, miscellaneous, payroll receipts so couldn't do a full audit.' The next line may say 'in our opinion the accounts are okay.' BIG PIECE OF BULL****.(scuse me)
We have to take a stand and say no more nonsense.

Sounds like a one way ticket to ending up in court. You sign, you pay. Bottom line. If you've signed a lease that says you pay management fees, they are legally enforceable, regardless of any issues you may have. Pay first, fight next. Wrong but it's how it works.

If you're not happy with the directors of your management company, go on the board yourself. Nobody else will protect your investment better than you will.

Paulw

robodonkey wrote: »

(3) Now you should tender for all services in the complex. DO NOT LET THE AGENT DO THIS! They too recieve kick-backs (unconfirmed suspicions) and may/may not be acting in your best interest.

(7) Cost reductions / savings on outgoing services in the order of 30-40%, funnel back into sink fund and reduce fees yr 2/3/4

Point 3 - that takes a lot of work for the directors. Sometimes it's better to just let the agent do this.

Point 7 - You can't always get cost reductions, and can't always save large sums of money. Some large development costs have gone up in recent times (especially insurance). You may also need to invest more money in your development, depending on how well previous contractors did their work.

We removed the developers as directors and replaced their management agent about 4 years ago now. Our development is run much better now, but our management fees haven't really decreased at all. I've been one of the directors now for 3 of those 4 years. It can be a lot of work, and really does depend on how much time you can devote to it all.

It's not easy and you can't always expect your management fees to go down. Be realistic, and see where the money is being spent.

robodonkey

Fair points, just a couple of comments specifically from our case.

If you (as a committee) tender for all services and every quote recieved is 30-40% cheaper than the current charge, that indicates the services were either seriously over-priced and poorly cost managed over the existing contract duration OR that costs have come down over the contract duration. Granted I have limited experience here but, I would imagine most people are in a similar boat so will either have been over-charged OR can take advantage of downward moving prices.
Either way 30-40% savings.

Note that these savings do not necessarily transfer back as cheaper rates to members, there's the sink fund and other items to consider - for sure.

What I'm saying here is that perhaps it's best if you do the due diligence yourselves, to get the best prices. And from my experience there is substantial savings to be made by putting in this effort (again refer to point above - we could be "feeling" this cost reduction simply because we never did this exercise before!)

You are also spot on regarding Insurance - that did go up (~10% IIRC)

Also worth noting that in some cases, where we renegotiated cheaper contracts, we have got BETTER service for less!
I think the current climate has everyone sharpening pencils and refocussing on the customer again - long may that continue

Paulw

I agree with you there.

In our case, our costs didn't reduce at all. Some even increased, but, we were getting a much better quality of service and work. Our place was cleaner, brighter and better maintained, for practically the same price. We cut costs in some areas, but had to spend the money elsewhere.

It does pay off to control as much as you can directly. But that will also depend on your working relationship and agreements with your management agent.

anotherlostie

Thanks for the replies. The way our memo and arts are set out, we (the owners) aren't eligible to vote at meetings until all the units sold (and that's another story...), but when they are and THEY decide their directors will resign, we have 60 days before the EGM. So we need to be prepared ahead of time - meaning it could be well ahead of time depending on how they progress.

If anyone has a recommendation for a solicitor who is expert in this area, please PM me with details. Have heard some bad stories in relation to this part of the process so proceeding with caution.

robodonkey

Seriously - the articles state you have no vote until all units sold?
Sounds dodgy to begin with. I've heard of "golden votes" for developer directors and that sort of thing but not a denial of voting rights subject to a random point in the future that may never happen (ie last unit sold).
Either way, the new legislation rolling out will (when made law) force developer directors to cede control / handover common areas in timely manner. Worth getting your hands on a copy of that and asking your local TD when that's due for passing into law.

Well Hellooo

Can't wait to see legislation. I bet it still allows for fraud. We have a large number of Residents not paying and trying to get rid of Al Capone. Even though my car's been damaged, post taken, and lots more, fire away - I'm not giving in. Some people gave in because of intimidation. Can't wait to go back to court. What's the point in a 'Court of law' when there is no law.
Ireland is a big stupid joke on all its Citizens.
God grant me the serenity not to go loony

Paulw

Well Hellooo wrote: »

Can't wait to see legislation.

I'm also looking forward to the Multi Units Development Bill coming in. It will make it quick and easy for a management company to get an enforcement by the courts to make shareholders pay their management fees.

Well Hellooo

They'd better make sure to have absolute transparent copy of accounts so fees will be paid up and then and only then, there can be no excuse.
A phone bill is absolutely clear. We should know who did the jobs, were they skangers (therefore should cost less).

Paulw

As a shareholder, you are entitled to a copy of accounts. The actual content of same depends on what the directors agree to disclose, however, every cent must be accounted for. That's part of company law, and won't change with any new proposed legislation. Legally, they are only obliged to provide the copy of returns as submitted to the CRO.

But, remember, that every shareholder has a legal obligation to pay their management fees.

Also, if you don't pay your fees, then (in many cases) you have no power of vote at any company AGM/EGM.

People who don't pay their fees are, in most cases, the ones who moan most, but do the least. They are also the ones who cause more problems for the management company. Lack of fees is what cripples most management companies. I have no sympathy for those who don't pay their fees, and I look forward to seeing plenty of quick presecutions under the new legislation for those who have outstanding fees.

Me, as a management company director, will give the bare minimum assistance and information to those who haven't paid their fees, but for those who have paid in full, I will give all the assistance I can.

odds_on

Can anyone enlighten me as to why the management /service charges in apartment blocks in Ireland are so much more expensive than in the UK?
In Westport I found an apartment where the charges were €2,700 per year per apartment.
In Bundoran an apartment I was thinking of had €1,400 charges
In Tramore, an apartment service charge had €1,100 charges

I have found many apartments in the UK, which seem to be of better quality where the annual service charge is less than the equivalent of €800.

Seems to me someone is ripping someone off.

Paulw

odds_on wrote: »

Can anyone enlighten me as to why the management /service charges in apartment blocks in Ireland are so much more expensive than in the UK?

Probably because there are different prices and costs for everything, and Ireland (in general) is more expensive. Insurance in Ireland is so much more expensive than the UK, and insurance is generally one of the largest charges on any development.

I would bet that most items that the management company pays for is more expensive in Ireland, and hence management fees are dearer.

robodonkey

Yes - someone IS ripping someone off, or at least HAS been for the last 10 years!

Government never planned or legislated for the property boom, developers saw the gaps, chucked up apartments on every scrap of land, government never planned or legislated for any controls/overseeing of the legal vehicle (the management company) that runs these complexes.

Developers and cohorts start service companies, little or no legislation to protect the purchasers of the units from this cartel type of paradigm and we end up here, zero transparency, zero competition awaiting legislation to go through Dail Eireann.

Fortunately we are maturing as an economy and becoming wise to these routines. Costs can be lowered. Managing Agents can be brought to book.
This IS happening and it will change things for the better.

Apartments can and will be run by owners for the good of the development and not to line the pockets of the MA/Service Providers.

This can only be good for all the owners out there (lets just hope the planning people don't release permission for units/blocks EVERYWHERE which would just add to the over-supply).

robodonkey

Point here is that more competition and transparency with fewer barriers to entry* to the market will reduce prices/costs to a market appropriate level.
This is specifically in relation to the control Managing Agents have where they have falsely controlled the market with *cough* preferred suppliers.

*kick-backs and cosy relationships

And yes, insurance is a large cost and one of the few costs going up

Paulw wrote: »

Probably because there are different prices and costs for everything, and Ireland (in general) is more expensive. Insurance in Ireland is so much more expensive than the UK, and insurance is generally one of the largest charges on any development.

I would bet that most items that the management company pays for is more expensive in Ireland, and hence management fees are dearer.

Jennypops

Hi,

Obviously there is a need for regulation and controls within the industry, most definitely agree with that and hopefully it will make things a lot more transparent for everyone. I dont think all agents are guilty of kick backs or only giving jobs to companies with whom they have a cosy relationship. By members being involved, whether as owner directors or a residents committee and reviewing quarterly accounts, invoices etc etc on a regular basis and building up a good relationship with the agent then i think that is definitely a positive thing for any development. By being involved in things, from whats charged for site visits to pick up rubbish to the tendering process for the budgets then you will have a real input and it will be a lot harder for the wool to be pulled over anyones eyes. After all as a member of a management company it is in your own interests to ensure that your hard earned money is not being used incorrectly. I do think that when there are owner directors in place this makes things a lot better, as they too have a vested interest in keeping a development looking well and costs down as far as possible. Unless of course you have a builder who loves to spend time and effort in making sure its all being run properly...agents are only employed by the management company, therefore they need to be managed effectively.

emick

Paulw wrote: »

As a shareholder, you are entitled to a copy of accounts. The actual content of same depends on what the directors agree to disclose, however, every cent must be accounted for. That's part of company law, and won't change with any new proposed legislation. Legally, they are only obliged to provide the copy of returns as submitted to the CRO.

But, remember, that every shareholder has a legal obligation to pay their management fees.

Also, if you don't pay your fees, then (in many cases) you have no power of vote at any company AGM/EGM.

People who don't pay their fees are, in most cases, the ones who moan most, but do the least. They are also the ones who cause more problems for the management company. Lack of fees is what cripples most management companies. I have no sympathy for those who don't pay their fees, and I look forward to seeing plenty of quick presecutions under the new legislation for those who have outstanding fees.

Me, as a management company director, will give the bare minimum assistance and information to those who haven't paid their fees, but for those who have paid in full, I will give all the assistance I can.

This is a load of twaddle. Those who don't pay their fees usually do so out of a sense of total frustration with the lack of transparency surrounding Apartment Owners Management Companies (AOMC) and the lack of regulation governing them. Resident committees have vast sums of money at their disposal and the current system of circulating a neat set of accounts with expenditure explained in neat columns with no supporting documentation is not transparent enough. What should be circulated to all the owners are the bank statements of the residents committee. Each amount credited and debited should be backed up with a receipt. This is the only way that you will know where the money is going on. The AOMC is meant to be a 'residents committee'. When the owners on the residents committee start calling themselves 'Directors' then you know that you have problems.

Lack of regulation and poor company law have led the country to ruin. The fact that this same regulation is used to cloak the running of an apartment owners residents committee actually encourages corruption, greed and deception among the owners themselves.

All the information related to the expenses of your apartment block should be available to you to inspect at all times. The cleaning contract, the grounds contract, the waste costs, the electricity bill, the insurance premium paid, the cost of servicing the lifts should all be avalable to inspect at any time along with the bank statements of the residents committee.

The government need to overhaul the law in relation to this whole area. The use of company law to govern resident committees encourages deception.

athtrasna

emick wrote: »

This is a load of twaddle. Those who don't pay their fees usually do so out of a sense of total frustration with the lack of transparency surrounding Apartment Owners Management Companies (AOMC) and the lack of regulation governing them. Resident committees have vast sums of money at their disposal and the current system of circulating a neat set of accounts with expenditure explained in neat columns with no supporting documentation is not transparent enough. What should be circulated to all the owners are the bank statements of the residents committee. Each amount credited and debited should be backed up with a receipt. This is the only way that you will know where the money is going on. The AOMC is meant to be a 'residents committee'. When the owners on the residents committee start calling themselves 'Directors' then you know that you have problems.

Lack of regulation and poor company law have led the country to ruin. The fact that this same regulation is used to cloak the running of an apartment owners residents committee actually encourages corruption, greed and deception among the owners themselves.

All the information related to the expenses of your apartment block should be available to you to inspect at all times. The cleaning contract, the grounds contract, the waste costs, the electricity bill, the insurance premium paid, the cost of servicing the lifts should all be avalable to inspect at any time along with the bank statements of the residents committee.

The government need to overhaul the law in relation to this whole area. The use of company law to govern resident committees encourages deception.

Sounds like you don't quite get the whole Management Company thing...residents committees??? Owner directors of Management Companies are legally responsible for ensuring the development is run in keeping with companies legislation and that the best interests of all members of the management company.

Audited accounts are a legal requirement so talk of deception etc is very serious!

If you want to see all the figures you mention all the time, why don't you put yourself forward as a director? It's thankless work but nobody else is going to protect your investment better than you can!

Paulw

emick wrote: »

This is a load of twaddle. Those who don't pay their fees usually do so out of a sense of total frustration with the lack of transparency surrounding Apartment Owners Management Companies (AOMC) and the lack of regulation governing them. Resident committees have vast sums of money at their disposal and the current system of circulating a neat set of accounts with expenditure explained in neat columns with no supporting documentation is not transparent enough. What should be circulated to all the owners are the bank statements of the residents committee. Each amount credited and debited should be backed up with a receipt. This is the only way that you will know where the money is going on. The AOMC is meant to be a 'residents committee'. When the owners on the residents committee start calling themselves 'Directors' then you know that you have problems.

I think you lack understanding of what a management company is, and what law relates to it.

A management company is NOT a resident's committee. The directors are legal directors of a company (like any other legal company), and have legal responsibilities, as directors.

If you are not getting the documentation you want, my first question is - are you actually asking for that?

A Management company is a legal entity which owns the development and has responsibility for it's maintenance.

People's lack of understanding of company law, planning law, tenancy law, etc causes the vast majority of problems. People don't know what they are responsible for, what the management agent is responsible for, and what the management company is responsible for. Your post only highlights that.

If people have a problem with how the place is run, then the have routes for dealing with that. Non-payment of fees is the worst possible way to do it.

Faolchu

I've recently been appointed director of our management company. We are eager to get rid of our current agents.

Are there any agents you would strongly recommend?
Are there ones to be avoided like the plague?
Do you know any easy ways of getting out of the contract with the current agents in case we're tied in for a number of years?

Any hints or pitfalls to watch out for? I have the directors guide from the ODCE already.

Paulw

Faolchu wrote: »

I've recently been appointed director of our management company. We are eager to get rid of our current agents.

Do you know any easy ways of getting out of the contract with the current agents in case we're tied in for a number of years?

If there is no written contract with the management agent, then you can give them 1 week notice, or 1 month notice. Then make sure you have a new agent ready to take over. Make sure you get ALL documentation, and all the funds from your bank account. Make sure to cancel all direct debits and change who can authorise payments as soon as you can (even before removing the sitting agent).

The easiest way to get rid of them - send them a registered letter, stating that you are replacing them. Give them a date when their services will end, and let them know who will be taking over as the new agent.

Best of luck with it.

clone307

i have revice a civil omment over none payment of fees, the resident committee has broken up after 2 1/2 years and im not happy with the fees im payin did anyone have any luck in court fight the case the are not get what the payed for.

any help where should i start im losted in this mine field of the managemment company any laws that i can use to fight my case

ciaran76

Paulw wrote: »

If there is no written contract with the management agent, then you can give them 1 week notice, or 1 month notice. Then make sure you have a new agent ready to take over. Make sure you get ALL documentation, and all the funds from your bank account. Make sure to cancel all direct debits and change who can authorise payments as soon as you can (even before removing the sitting agent).

The easiest way to get rid of them - send them a registered letter, stating that you are replacing them. Give them a date when their services will end, and let them know who will be taking over as the new agent.

Best of luck with it.

Hi Paulw,

Would we need to have an AGM/EGM with Managment company and all shareholders before agreeing to change agents or would the Manangment company on its own be able to take this step?

markpb

ciaran76 wrote: »

Hi Paulw,

Would we need to have an AGM/EGM with Managment company and all shareholders before agreeing to change agents or would the Manangment company on its own be able to take this step?

We changed ours this year without an AGM - as far as I'm concerned, the managing agent is just another contract like window cleaning and refuse collection so the directors can change them at will.

I would suggest that you communicate extensively with the owners before, during and after the change to reduce any risk. We didn't do it properly and it caused some confusion.

athtrasna

clone307 wrote: »

i have revice a civil omment over none payment of fees, the resident committee has broken up after 2 1/2 years and im not happy with the fees im payin did anyone have any luck in court fight the case the are not get what the payed for.

any help where should i start im losted in this mine field of the managemment company any laws that i can use to fight my case

You have no chance!! The way fees go is you sign a legal document that you will pay them, you pay them and then you can query the budget at the next AGM. By not paying fees you have negatively impacted the financial position of your management company.

Management Companies have nothing to do with Residents Associations. Read back on this thread where people like PaulW have spent hours going over and over what a management company is and what the rights and responsibilities are of owners in managed developments.

Paulw

ciaran76 wrote: »

Hi Paulw,

Would we need to have an AGM/EGM with Managment company and all shareholders before agreeing to change agents or would the Manangment company on its own be able to take this step?

Technically, it only requires the directors to agree to hire a new agent.

However, best practice is to hold an EGM, infom everyone of your decision, and take a vote on it.