The Mega **Management Company** thread

pinkypinky

nohopengn wrote: »

I have heard of some MCs' where Board directors do not have to pay maintenance fees and this seems to work very well.

Do you mean as payment for their time and effort in managing the company?
Wow - what genius director came up with that? Wish mine was in a financial position to let us directors off our fees!!

nohopengn

pinkypinky wrote: »

Do you mean as payment for their time and effort in managing the company?
Wow - what genius director came up with that? Wish mine was in a financial position to let us directors off our fees!!

Yes payment for their time and effort. In many cases being a Director on a management company can be a thankless task.

Re:director nominations. I was mistaken about the nominations.

athrasna pointed out that notification must be given. That's absolutely correct.

Only existing directors can be re-elected without prior notification.

Generally speaking anything from 3 to 21 days notice is required in writing before a new director is appointed. That said, if a Director is elected at an AGM without any objections, the nomination will pass and it is very difficult to undo.

SerialComplaint

nohopengn wrote: »

Lastly, PaulW with regard to job creation. We have an MA that employs 50 people. They manage over 100 complexes. If the MA was removed and each complex employed two full-time people(could be owners) to replace the MA, that creates 200 jobs. 200 jobs is more that the current 50 employed by the MA.

If you move from 50 jobs to 200 jobs, then you quadruple the costs as well. The extra people will have be paid for, presumably through the management fees. Not sure that many owners will be voting for this.

nohopengn

SerialComplaint wrote: »

If you move from 50 jobs to 200 jobs, then you quadruple the costs as well. The extra people will have be paid for, presumably through the management fees. Not sure that many owners will be voting for this.

you haven't given enough thought to that response.... you are not quadrupling the costs. Each MCs' costs either stay the same or they are reduced.

example:
Our MC currently pay 550K per year to run the complex. Our MA costs are coming in around 150K (includes everything).

If we replaced the MA with 2 full-time or in our case possibly 3 full-time staff. Our costs don't increase and we'd get a better service.

Replicate that scenario across 100 developments and you've created jobs and improved the level of service.

p.s. Our complex has 300 units, I know of many where there are 500 plus units - in those cases the savings would increase and the no. of jobs created would also increase.


Yes some MAs' provide an adequate service, but do not be fooled the larger MAs' are making millions in profits....

How Strange

nohopengn wrote: »

IMHO H&S has been used in far to many instances to create issues where there aren't any. Once you've got decent insurance and act responsibly, you're fine.

When you become an employer even with just 1 member of staff you have legal obligations in terms of H&S. Yes, acting responsibly is important but you have to make sure you're fully aware of them of your legal obligations and you observe them in terms of manual handling, lone working, site safety, ppe, risk assessment to name just a few.

nohopengn wrote: »

I have heard of some MCs' where Board directors do not have to pay maintenance fees and this seems to work very well.

As a member of an MC, I'd definitely question the legalities of that arrangement. Each owner has a responsibility to pay their service charges.

nohopengn wrote: »

Yes payment for their time and effort. In many cases being a Director on a management company can be a thankless task.

Directorship in an MC should be voluntary. It is most definitely a thankless time consuming job but any renummeration should be voted, agreed on and paid completely separately to service charges.

nohopengn

How Strange wrote: »

When you become an employer even with just 1 member of staff you have legal obligations in terms of H&S. Yes, acting responsibly is important but you have to make sure you're fully aware of them of your legal obligations and you observe them in terms of manual handling, lone working, site safety, ppe, risk assessment to name just a few. /QUOTE]

True, but rather than focusing on the problems/issues I'm trying to focus on the solutions. Every issue can be resolved and in this case they have.

How Strange wrote: »

As a member of an MC, I'd definitely question the legalities of that arrangement. Each owner has a responsibility to pay their service charges.
/QUOTE]

There is no issue. It was agreed by all at the AGM. And as the Board rotates anyone who wants to get on the Board can.

How Strange wrote: »

Directorship in an MC should be voluntary. It is most definitely a thankless time consuming job but any renummeration should be voted, agreed on and paid completely separately to service charges.

As stated above, it is voluntary and the remuneration was agreed by all at the AGM.

All owners in the complex realise that it is better to encourage an active Board membership as this has removed the need for an MA. I thought the idea at the time was quite novel and that's over 10 years ago now. Since then, the complex has been painted every 2-3 years, the gardens look great, the security system is excellent, the maintenance has never increased and when I compare it to the place I'm in - there's no doubt in my mind that self management with active Board members is definitely the way to go.



Note:
Running a complex is not complicated. It requires good Admin/PM skills, access to good tradesmen (sparks, plumber, painter and maybe a roofer), a solicitor, an accountant and you can contract out the Company Secretary work for under 2K per year (if you want).

SerialComplaint

nohopengn wrote: »

you haven't given enough thought to that response.... you are not quadrupling the costs. Each MCs' costs either stay the same or they are reduced.

example:
Our MC currently pay 550K per year to run the complex. Our MA costs are coming in around 150K (includes everything).

If we replaced the MA with 2 full-time or in our case possibly 3 full-time staff. Our costs don't increase and we'd get a better service.

Replicate that scenario across 100 developments and you've created jobs and improved the level of service.

p.s. Our complex has 300 units, I know of many where there are 500 plus units - in those cases the savings would increase and the no. of jobs created would also increase.


Yes some MAs' provide an adequate service, but do not be fooled the larger MAs' are making millions in profits....

The only way the costs can stay the same is that the internal staff are doing work that was previously contracted out. So any increase in jobs for internal staff will be balanced out by loss of jobs for contracted staff. There is no net increase in jobs if the costs stay the same.

Apart from that, it is difficult to see how two internal staff could take on ALL the maintenance tasks that are normally contracted out, e.g. lift maintenance, fire extinguisher maintenance, plumbing, electrical, etc etc. It also means that the MC is now an employer, and has to deal with a huge raft of employment and safety legislation itself.

nohopengn

SerialComplaint wrote: »

The only way the costs can stay the same is that the internal staff are doing work that was previously contracted out.

exactly..... the internal staff are replacing the monies paid to the MA.

All other works continue and no jobs are lost (lift maintenance etc. etc....)

SerialComplaint

nohopengn wrote: »

exactly..... the internal staff are replacing the monies paid to the MA.

All other works continue and no jobs are lost (lift maintenance etc. etc....)

But the folks who are currently working for the MA lose their jobs - right? Any all the opportunities for 'economies of scale' that come with the MA are gone. Your negotiating power with external contractors shrinks to zero, because instead of negotiating for swathes of works across blocks, you are now down to a single block, and tradesmen have much less interest in keeping you sweet.

shadow10

Hi there

Does anyone know if the management of doors that face out to a courtyard for example are supposed to be managed by a management company or is it the landlord's responsibility?

The complex is about 3 or 4 years old and it's a wooden double glazed door that seems to have expanded and is catching on the frame.

Thanks!

markpb

Are the doors common to several apartments or specific to your own apartment? If they're specific to your apartment, you'd need to check your lease agreement and property conveyancing documents - it differs from place to place but I'd imagine they're your own responsibility. If they're shared doors, it's the management company's responsibility.

SerialComplaint wrote: »

Any all the opportunities for 'economies of scale' that come with the MA are gone. Your negotiating power with external contractors shrinks to zero, because instead of negotiating for swathes of works across blocks, you are now down to a single block, and tradesmen have much less interest in keeping you sweet.

I'm not disputing this is a possibility but in reality, I've never seen it happen. We switched from a very large managing agent firm and found that most of the prices fell when we started to negotiate ourselves or when our newer (and much smaller) agent negotiated. In fact, our last agent even told us that for most jobs, they have a list of preferred contractors (based on past, positive experience) and they give all their work to them.

mprop

nohopengn wrote: »

Yes payment for their time and effort. In many cases being a Director on a management company can be a thankless task.

Agreed! Its very hard to please everyone!

Mike

nohopengn

shadow10 wrote: »

Hi there

Does anyone know if the management of doors that face out to a courtyard for example are supposed to be managed by a management company or is it the landlord's responsibility?

The complex is about 3 or 4 years old and it's a wooden double glazed door that seems to have expanded and is catching on the frame.

Thanks!

If it's within an apt then it's the responsibility of the owner, otherwise it is the responsibility of the management company.

athtrasna

If it's just your door then it's your responsibility, if it's a shared entrance door it's a MC issue.

mfodonnell

Hi everyone,

If you would like to compare how your management company is doing against others, please get in touch with me directly.

I've a Benchmarking Report that can compare your costs with other Companies who have contributed. Obviously, the lack of transparency across the city is leaving owners worried and concerned that they're being ripped off, even in the Recession.

I managed a 60+ complex in south dublin for 4 years as a Board Director, with the usual hassles of chasing defaulting members, liaising with the management agent, deciding on fee levels, preparing next years budget, other project work and running AGM/EGMs.

The more people who contribute, the more accurate an up-to-date I can give you. While I can get most of your company's costs and expenses off the CRO website, I'd need a few other details to give you a decent comparison with others. I've a short questionaire that I'd send you.

You will be able to use these findings at your next AGM or if you are a Board member, discussions with your management agent.

You'll appreciate there is a small admin fee for this work, but given that I'm trying to help others across Dublin, it will only be a nominal amount.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Mike

bobmock2010

capistrano wrote: »

A lot of us now own appartments in Ireland and we pay annual service charges. However, as these increase every year it is hard to know whether or not we are getting value for money because there is no transparent list of the charges for the various appartment complexes.

I think it would be a good idea for people to say what they are paying in their complex and then we can build up a list so that people can see if they are getting good value or not.

I'll start off with my own case.

Complex: Tolka Vale, Finglas Road, D11
Appartment: 2 bed
Annual Service Charge: €1490 plus insurance of approx €670; total €2160

Please read my post at Management Company Info BOB

The management Company sets your Fees.

If you are an owner, you a member of the Management Company & have one vote at the AGM. This is held once a year by law & every owner must be notified 14 days in advance.

Get involved! Don't be bullied by Management Agent or Management Company. Find out the name of your Management Compay, get on the website of the Companies Registartion Office http://CRO.ie Download the documents that are available for your complex. They tell all!! Finances the members of the board Etc.

You can even get a group of owners together & take over the Board like we did & set your own fees based on REAL expenditues.

WARNING! This takes a dedicated group of owners but the rewards are immense.

mfodonnell

(Copied from another thread)

Further to the above, I'd a very helpful discussion with the moderator who was (rightly) concerned that I'd charge a fee to examine an apartment complex's accounts in order to compare it with others.

The objective is to examine your costs and compare them with others; giving you a cost per apartment.

If you have a copy of your most recent accounts already, I can go through them for FREE. I'd have a few additional questions which aren't detailed in the accounts.

Otherwise, the nominal amount I'd charge would be €7.50 to download your complex's accounts off the CRO website, covering the most recent accounts, B1 Annual Return and B10 Director changes Form showing who the legal contact is for your Management Company. (Each download costs €2.50). The amount would be repaid to me via Paypal.

Send me a private message with your contact email if you'd like to be part of this. After we've about 10-20 complexes examined, we'll post the results online here.

Best regards,

M.

athtrasna

As a director of our Management Company (with a healthy balance sheet) I would caution anyone against revealing sensitive information to a non-involved third party, with a potential commercial interest.

Paulw

athtrasna wrote: »

As a director of our Management Company (with a healthy balance sheet) I would caution anyone against revealing sensitive information to a non-involved third party, with a potential commercial interest.

Have to totally agree with you there.

athtrasna

Also bear in mind that any negative findings of such a survey would negatively impact on the resale values of any units in those developments in the short-medium term. If my unit was on the market and I knew a neighbour submitted the information to a public forum...I would NOT be happy.

mfodonnell

Can't argue with your points guys. But we're not owners of businesses in competition with each other - apart from the fact that we're trying to keep market-values better than everyone elses.

What's crucial to this entire debate is the lack of transparency. Some apartments have very low fees, but the place looks like a dump or they have nothing in their sinking fund. Others are paying higher fees, the place looks well, but the members feel they're being ripped off. Others are being charged higher insurance, cleaning, bin charges and lift maintenance, because they've no idea they could be getting better deals. How many of us have tried to renegotiate and heard the line, "You won't get it better than that." We need to be saying, "Well actually, we can."

At the back of your accounts, is a breakdown of your Income Statement, detailing what was spent on Cleaning, Bins, Repairs etc. Often, the breakdown is NOT sent in with the accounts to the CRO. From reviewing about a dozen companies, there isn't a standard format or breakdown for the accounts. The number of apartments in a particular complex is not given. As a member, you are entitled to get a breakdown from your Board.

Until we're able to benchmark ourselves, we've no idea who's paying above or below the odds. Comparing one complex against another, does paying €7,000 on insurance mean anything, if one complex has 20 units and another has 50 units? What's the charge per apartment on each expense. This is what we ought to be establishing, and then forcing our Boards to act.

Regarding vested interests: I'm an owner-occupier, an ex-director of my own complex's management company and don't work for a management agent or property-related company. My motivation is I'd like to get value for money and my home and surrounds to look well. Without intending to be disingenuous, I'd make the suggestion that those who wish to stiffle bringing transparency may have their own (albeit valid) reasons. But if they do not wish to take part in the survey, that's their choice.

Fees haven't gone down despite the Recession. It's up to each of us to make it better.

30kmph

mfodonnell wrote: »

(Copied from another thread)



Otherwise, the nominal amount I'd charge would be €7.50 to download your complex's accounts off the CRO website, covering the most recent accounts, B1 Annual Return and B10 Director changes Form showing who the legal contact is for your Management Company. (Each download costs €2.50). The amount would be repaid to me via Paypal.

Why in the name of God would someone pay you to do this when they can do it themselves from CRO.ie???

mfodonnell

Yes.

Paulw

I was an owner/resident/director of our management company (I stepped down this year, after 3 years of being a director).

Our fees, expenditure and all our financial details are shared with the shareholders. No one has ever come back asking for more of a financial breakdown, because we provide as much detail as we can.

Our CRO returns are just the basic information that the CRO require. We don't give a full breakdown on where our money goes.

Our fees are not too expensive, and our development is fairly well run. Nothing is perfect and no one wants to spend money they don't have to.

I would certainly not like to see our accounts being shared with anyone who doesn't have a direct involvement in it.

mfodonnell

Hi Paul,

Absolutely, there's no way that we'd show to the whole world what Management Companies A-Z were paying exactly for insurance and the like. However, we ought to be able to show the average amount contributors pay per apartment, and thereby highlight where we're falling short or ahead of each other. One can mention that some complexes will be north dublin, some south, some west, so there will be some skewing of some expenses depending on areas. However, the average though will give a reasonable indication despite being a small sample of the hundreds of companies out there.

The government have no clue, and I don't believe there is a Department actively monitoring this. So noone can produce trustworthy stats that show the true picture. There's no proper regulation either in place, and the government are unlikely to tighten legislation until there's a proper public outcry. So it's really up to ourselves.

Best,

Mike

SerialComplaint

Paulw wrote: »

I

Our fees, expenditure and all our financial details are shared with the shareholders. No one has ever come back asking for more of a financial breakdown, because we provide as much detail as we can.

Our CRO returns are just the basic information that the CRO require. We don't give a full breakdown on where our money goes.

I would certainly not like to see our accounts being shared with anyone who doesn't have a direct involvement in it.

If you have already given the detailed information to all shareholders, it is effectively in the public domain anyway.

markpb

mfodonnell wrote: »

we ought to be able to show the average amount contributors pay per apartment, and thereby highlight where we're falling short or ahead of each other.

I agree entirely. I accept that people are unwilling to share company information, especially to an untrusted third party on the internet, but there's definitely a deficit of information available to volunteer management company directors. It's something we (Apartment Owners Network - www.apartmentowners.ie) have been working on with our members but there's scope for a lot more).

the government are unlikely to tighten legislation until there's a proper public outcry.

Legislation has passed the Seanad and second stage in the Dail and will hopefully be passed into law in the Autumn. It won't fix all the problems but it will go a long way towards eliminating developer-led problems and giving owners more transparency into the running of their company.

Paulw

SerialComplaint wrote: »

If you have already given the detailed information to all shareholders, it is effectively in the public domain anyway.

No, the information is not in the public domain at all. It is with those who are entitled to the information - the shareholders.

As with any company, the shareholders have a right and entitlement to the information. This is provided to them each year for the company AGM. These details are not provided to the CRO nor are they published anywhere else.

There is really no direct way to compare management company charges. Every development is different - number of units, facilities, size of common area, type of buildings, etc

With insurance, this will also differ. It will depend on a lot of factors of the development, and also on previous claims.

I totally agree that more transparancy is needed. I think our management agent and management company do a good job at informing shareholders about our financial dealings. We do what we can. We have shopped around for many services, and tend to get a number of quotes from different suppliers for each. We get direct quotes from some and our MA gets other quotes.

We still struggle with our developer, who has still not handed over the common area. We also have a number of issues with the common area, that need to be resolved to our satisfaction. We're looking forward to legislation coming online that will help these things.

30kmph

Paulw wrote: »

No, the information is not in the public domain at all. It is with those who are entitled to the information - the shareholders.

Good point.

Also, it's bang out of order to be selling your wares on a public information forum like this. There's a section on boards called adverts.ie where you can tell us all about your proposal, and the very best of luck to you!

What I would say to others is this: the fact that this guy empathizes with the objections by repeatedly saying "absolutely" should in no way disguise the fact that he wants your cash.

mfodonnell

Hi Paul and Mark,

Thanks a mil for your advice and feedback. I'll check out the website you mentioned. Thanks as well for the heads-up about the Bills being processed by the government. There'll still be a long way to go, but at least the process has started.

Cheers,
Mike