The Mega **Management Company** thread

jd

mfodonnell wrote: »

Hi Paul and Mark,

Thanks a mil for your advice and feedback. I'll check out the website you mentioned. Thanks as well for the heads-up about the Bills being processed by the government. There'll still be a long way to go, but at least the process has started.

Cheers,
Mike

You were looking for all this information from people and you didn't know all this??!??

The_Conductor

Guys- lets keep this ontopic please.

S.

pm25

how do i complain about a management company?

Paulw

Complain about what?

Complain about the management agent, or the management company?

Your ultimate point of complaint would be to the directors of the management company, and their details can be found on the CRO website.

spirityboy

we recently changed management agents. We changed because to be honest the other guys are useless, the company was getting further into debt and the money owed by shareholders was constantly increasing. The old agent would not accept any responsibility for their part in the failure to recover the debt and kept saying that “it’s not our Job to collect the money” when it clearly was. so we felt a change of agent would help us resolve our continuing problems.

The problems we face ate these:
Collecting the debt when people have been allowed to accumulate years of bad debt. I feel that people should be immediately taken to court for repayment after all they have had years to pay and flatly refuse to do so when the old agen wrote to them. Obviously those that are paying by the month or whatever are ok for because they are clearing their debt. But there are a few that owe multiple years fees that are paying €20 here and €50 there by cheque and from looking at it they will not even cover 50% of this year’s fees never mind what they actually owe by the end of the year.

Service providers pulling services. First the waste management company pulled out because of what was owed to them, I fully understand their position. We did try discuss with them but they gave unrealistic terms (50% of debt by Friday and the rest over 3 months or something like that) and there was no way we could agree to it because we would never have met those obligations. Then the landscaping company pulled out because we owed him money. Luckily we got someone else in to cover these services and they have agreed to withhold invoicing for a few months but obviously they need paying soon. The old providers are also turning up in the estate and hassling our new agents and telling the new vendors to watch their backs and that they won’t get paid and so on.
Shareholders complaining that firstly the bins were not collected, ok a week and a half maybe two went by before we got someone in and maybe a month on the landscaping. Now they are complaining that the internal common areas haven’t been cleaned in over a month. but obviously they want it done now.
In the past the company allowed people to pay by the month over the space of a year, this worked for the small percentage do that actually pay their service charges. But those with long term debt didn’t utilize it to reduce what was owed. They just ignored it. So now I’m thinking to hell with offering credit, it didn’t work because we are not guaranteed cash when we need it for insurance etc so I want to stop offering credit for next year. Or at the most offering a plan whereby all service charges must be paid in three or at the most four instalments. The other directors disagree with me and think we should leave it as it is and allow people to pay over the 12 months but that makes no sense because there just about enough cash to make insurance and electricity payment each month.

What are your views or thoughts on how to approach things? We’ve prioritised service as Insurance first, then waste then electricity (all on direct debit) then landscaping and clearing the company debt anything else can wait as far as i'm concerned

Paulw

Debt is always the biggest issue for most management companies.

For those who do pay monthly, I'd recommend leaving those people on that option.

For those who don't already pay monthly, I wouldn't give them the option. Maybe get them to pay quarterly, or stick to the payment in full option.

Your development will have to find the best way to recover debt. There is no simple answer, and no one stop fix.

There are debt collection solicitors, you could bring the offenders to court, you could start adding interest to their fees (depending on the lease contract clauses), you could deny them the services that they are not paying for, you could seek to remove their units from the block insurance, if you have vehicle clamping you could not issue parking permits until all fees have been paid in full. And, of course, you can use a combination of any of the above.

You should send a letter to all unit owners. Give them a breakdown of the current financial status of the management company, and give them a list of those with ourstanding debt. Let everyone know that those who are not paying their fees are the ones who are causing the problems.

Best of luck with whatever you have to do.

robodonkey

spirityboy wrote: »

Or at the most offering a plan whereby all service charges must be paid in three or at the most four instalments. The other directors disagree with me and think we should leave it as it is and allow people to pay over the 12 months but that makes no sense because there just about enough cash to make insurance and electricity payment each month.

I'll be honest, the chances of recieving funds in "lump sums" are smaller as people end up with less and less cash in their pockets (not excusing the legal obligation, just being realistic). We made it possible to pay in any way they liked, monthly/quarterly/lump sum/provided info on bank loans/emphasised the legal requirements/denied services/introduced clamping & tag based access to car park/developed a debt collection process (with rigid adherence to this).

A zero tolerance policy on "this years payments" being up-to-date and a policy of engagement for arrears (ie you MUST contact us and arraneg an arrears schedule of payment or we will send the debt collectors in).

The legal route is almost pointles as the Judicial system is almost powerless for this type of problem. Get a Debt collection agency on board who's sole purpose is getting people to pay their legal obligation.

Make everyone aware of the debt collection process.

Just some random musings......we are on the same road.

It still bugs me that some folks don't think they should pay because the "services are too expensive" or they don't agree with the services provided for some reason. :mad:

Best of luck it!

Arrange monthly instalments with your providers too - most of them would rather see some money incoming than potentially none.....

spirityboy

Paulw wrote: »

For those who don't already pay monthly, I wouldn't give them the option.

That's how i feel, to hell with them at least those that pay by installments are paying.

Paulw wrote: »

There are debt collection solicitors,... bring the offenders to court,.. adding interest to their fees .... deny them the services .... remove their units from the block insurance, ..

we've already started discussing the need for debt collection companies and will be issuing notice within the next 2 weeks.

I'm thinking of changing the locks on the binshed doors but that might lead to illegal dumping or them just kicking in doors which will lead to more expense. One thing we have done is that if any outstanding insurance claims are settled all outstanding fees are deducted from the settlement. annoys people but to hell with them. we've also decided not to allow any claims for anyone that owes monew and is not in a payment plan i.e. those with long term debt. can we legally remove them from insurance policies? that would cause problems for their mortgage? how could we apply pressure through their lender if at all?

Paulw wrote: »

Let everyone know that those who are not paying their fees are the ones who are causing the problems.

would that not be a breach of confidentiality? but then maybe naming and shaming is what people need.

robodonkey wrote:

It still bugs me that some folks don't think they should pay because the "services are too expensive" or they don't agree with the services provided for some reason.

what we get is "why should i pay when i don't recieve any services" can't for the life of me understand that logic. how can they expect a service if they don't pay. of course i can understand the frustrations of those that do pay because obviously I share them.

robodonkey

spirityboy wrote: »

would that not be a breach of confidentiality? but then maybe naming and shaming is what people need.

Publish a list of Paying Units.
Leave gaps between paying units on the list.
Get creative as to why you would publish the paying units in a list - a competition perhaps?

eg:

Unit 1
Unit 2

Unit 4
Unit 5

spirityboy

robodonkey that's still listing those that don't pay by omission. hell if we can do it why not but i do thing there would be some legal complications around confidentiality

markpb

spirityboy wrote: »

robodonkey that's still listing those that don't pay by omission. hell if we can do it why not but i do thing there would be some legal complications around confidentiality

As long as you don't list their names, you're simply disclosing the state of the company to other shareholders in the company. They're entitled to know that information. A lot of management companies publish their defaulters list in the annual accounts at the AGM.

robodonkey

I guess the more desperate the company becomes the more you'd accept the risk of a legal challenge if you know what I mean? To be honest, we got more ruthless and cunning as the stakes got higher, in the interest of the development and the paying members.

I think the phrase "grow some balls" really needs to become a mantra for the committees and management companies in their dealings with both managing agents and non-paying members.

Things that got our non-paying members attention were denial of services and the debt collection policy. Strike there aggressively and you should see rewards.

Paulw

Each member of the management company is legally entitled to a list of company members.

Each member of the management company is legally entitled to a full set of account.

If you match up the list of company members, with the list of outstanding management fees, then you are not doing anything wrong at all.

At our AGM, we give out a list of units, the amount they have paid and the amount due. If any member wants a list of the other shareholders, then we have that already printed and can hand it out. All well within what is permitted.

spirityboy

cheers guys.

the fear I have is we're new directors with a new agent and the shareholders already complained there was no consultaion about the change of agent (it's not required under our M&A) we discussed it a lot as directors and honestly felt that it was the best solution, the old agent had no interest, i mean after 3 years only starting debt collection proceedings against people is a joke especially when they only did it for a handful and not everyone that owed long term debts, in my view if the first year was not paid then something should have been done along the lines of a guaranteed payment plan in writing or something. the old agent never changed vendors either so we never got competitive rates for other services,

hopefully the changes we have made will start to reduce our costs soon. either that or next year we'll by strung up by the shareholders LOL

markpb

spirityboy wrote: »

the shareholders already complained there was no consultaion about the change of agent (it's not required under our M&A) we discussed it a lot as directors and honestly felt that it was the best solution, the old agent had no interest

Don't worry about that. You were dead right to do what you did - you're the people who have to deal with the agent and you're the ones taking the blame if the agent doesn't do their job. No matter how good you are, people will always complain

Have a look at the Apartment Owners website - we've put some articles there about dealing with debt collection and we'll be adding more soon for directions in your position.

Paulw

Next time you have an AGM and someone is more mouthy than others about how things are run, nominate them to be a director. That usually shuts them up quickly.

We did similar (changed MA without consulting the members), but at the AGM we asked for a vote anyway, and it was passed without reservation.

People need to trust their directors, or else they need to step forward.

robodonkey

Yes - we had the same thing. Some people have no idea, just want to vent!

Owner: "We were never consulted about the change of MA :mad:"

Directors:"Were you at the AGM?"

Owner:"Eh, no"

Directors:"Were you at the EGM?"

Owner:"Eh, no"

Directors:"Are you on the Residents Committee?"

Owner:"Eh, no"

Directors:"Have you contacted the Residents Committee?"

Owner:"Eh, no"

Directors:"Have you paid up-to-date service charges?"

Owner: Silence on the line.........

CluelessGirl

I am looking for 'the best' solicitor that specialises in dealing with Management Companies and Managing Agents.

PM if you like.

Thanks in advance.

bobmock2010

cardigan wrote: »

I guess you have to pay for the lights in the carpark and the car park gate - it wouldn't be fair for people who didn't have a space to pay for it....but then why do those people complain when they are clamped for using the car park - anyway, after 3 yrs of fighting with KPM I have given up, most of us have. We are not in a position to fire KPM as the developer has not handed over full ownership yet we have been told. The develpement has been finsihed a long time now but it takes 10 years to handover, that's what they said. KPM couldn't give a rats if we fired them anyway, sure they will have another Danninger develpment the very next day - I am of the opinion that Danninger (Zoe) and KPM are in cahoots.

Also the window cleaning (€3000 per year on the accounts) has never taken place, never ever - I too have my name in dirt on the outside of my window and only the rain has faded it.

The Management Company is owned by the APT OWNERS. The Management Agent works for The Management Company. Each owner has a vote on the Board of Directors of the Management Company. Take control of the Management Company by voting in your on Board. Do this by making sure you have a slate of candidates for the Board at the AGM & vote them in!

Then FIRE the Mnagement Agent & run it yourselves. It makes no difference if the common areas have been turned over or not. The Management Company is a legal entity recognized by the CRO (Companies Registartion Office) & only answers to its Board of Directors.

Good Luck! Get in there & fight!

LabourBteer

This event might be of interest to anyone having difficulty with their management company.


Cllr Aidan Culhane of the Labour Party is hosting a public meeting on the important topic of ‘Living with Management Companies’ on Wednesday, 22nd September 2010 at 8pm. This meeting will be particularly useful for anyone living in an apartment block, a gated community or any community that comes under a management company. The meeting will take place at Ballinteer St Johns GAA Club on Grange Road (beside Marley Park).

Joan Burton will provide a political perspective on the issue. This will be followed by an update on current and future legislation from Gillian Cahill, and discussions with experienced management company directors about how to make the best of the current situation.

If you are a Facebook user, you will find more details on the Facebook event page at http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=122611967789064. Please get in touch if you have any queries.

Aidan Culhane

Cllr Aidan Culhane
aidan.culhane@votelabour.ie
087-6885172

Lantus

We are an estate of around 170 houses and 30ish apartments in the country. (So we must have a management company.)

It seems to me that the process of being a director will be an unpaid thankless job requiring lots of work while being moaned to by all the residents. What if no one becomes a director? What happens then?

Could all the houses seperate themselves from the apartments, after all, all we need doing is the occasional grass cutting. They have lifts, common areas, lights etc. Selfish but then who cares.

There is a massive issue with non payment of the service charge currently. How on earth would you get even a quarter of people to pay it if we took it over ourselves? I don't fancy having bricks come through my window because I brought a debt collection agency in on someone.

It's such an unfair system that required residents to invest so much time and effort in something that couold of easily of been designed out in many situations.

Paulw

When management companies are properly run, they tend to run very well. Being a director may be a thankless task, but it means you control how and when the money is spent and what direction the company takes.

It shouldn't require a whole lot of time either, if done properly.

I was a director of our management company for 4 years and never had a brick through my window, nor anything else. A few complaints, but nothing more, and in general, those who complained were the ones who didn't pay their fees on time.

It is far from unfair, it actually works. People have a direct interest in making sure that their development is properly run.

SerialComplaint

Lantus wrote: »

It's such an unfair system that required residents to invest so much time and effort in something that couold of easily of been designed out in many situations.

What's the alternative? How do you design it out?

silja

SerialComplaint wrote: »

What's the alternative? How do you design it out?

Ours is an apartment block, no houses, but what our management company does is we have a management agent. The directors arrange the AGM and any major decisions- everything else (payment of caretaker, arranging of painting common areas, collecting of fees, making copies of keys, dealing with complaints etc) is done by the management agent.

Lantus

SerialComplaint wrote: »

What's the alternative? How do you design it out?

Dont build a predominantly all housing estate and bolt on a few apartments under the holy banner of 'mixed development' and then legally enforce a management company that none of the houses really need to pay into.

That said for apartment only blocks it's pretty unavoidable (never disputed.) but where I take offence it when you try to lump it on home owners of houses.

Flimbos

Bit of advice needed here folks.

I am an owner-occupier, living in an apartment, in a large development. I have always paid my management fees. Our management company has been having trouble with non-payment for a while now and recently, we all received a letter basically saying the situation was critical.

They no longer have money to pay all their maintenance contractors and now "all essential day to day maintenance work is under threat". This has not affected my apartment building yet.

They have more or less stated that they can no longer afford to pursue non-paying owners in court.

My main concern, however, is that they are also saying they cannot afford to pay the insurance for apartment buildings where owners don't pay (the cost of insurance is covered in the fee).

My query is how can I ensure that my apartment is insured? Can I take out insurance on the apartment itself, if the rest of the building is not insured?

mprop

Flimbos wrote: »

My main concern, however, is that they are also saying they cannot afford to pay the insurance for apartment buildings where owners don't pay (the cost of insurance is covered in the fee).

My query is how can I ensure that my apartment is insured? Can I take out insurance on the apartment itself, if the rest of the building is not insured?

One of the major problems at the moment is the cost of block insurance, its shot up over the last year with insurance companies blaming the severe winter and a raise in claims. (block insurance is a massive cost)

I would imagine that one of the first bills your property management company will pay is your insurance.... Your individual insurance will cover your property and its contents. My advice to you would be to ring your insurer and find out what exactly is covered in your policy but the block insurance is a separate issue and you cant do anything about it.

The letter you received, while it sounds serious, could just be a warning letter to try and scare the fee's out of the apartment owners who have not paid. If I was in your position I would just make sure that I have my own insurance paid and that you have paid your management fee's. You have fulfilled your responsibility for now.

Keep us updated.

The_Conductor

mprop wrote: »

Your individual insurance will cover your property and its contents.

Your individual insurance is normally contents only. As a leaseholder (albeit a 900 year (or however long) leaseholder), legally you are not considered to have an insurable interest in the building (yes, I know its a load of bull- but this is what they normally say).

In the absence of block insurance- it is critical that you contact your insurance broker immediately to see what alternate arrangements can be put in place.

sunflower27

I'm paying 2,300pa for a 2-bed duplex in the south east. I am above a big shopping centre and the complex is new (three years old). Get windows washed twice a year (only the back windows) and the small-ish green area is kept well but 200e on top of my mortgage every month seems absolutely ludicrous to me. As I'm about to be made redundnant I cannot afford these fees. Will read more of this thread as it seems it's full of great advice.

markpb

sunflower27 wrote: »

Get windows washed twice a year (only the back windows) and the small-ish green area is kept well but 200e on top of my mortgage every month seems absolutely ludicrous to me.

I hope you solve your financial problems out but just to point out that on top of your landscaping and window cleaning, you also get:
- structural insurance
- internal cleaning
- hall lighting
- lifts serviced
- electricity for lifts and lights
- fire systems maintained
- sinking fund for future work which could include repairs, lift replacement, external painting, etc