Garda on Primetime

Victor

Originally posted by gandalf
now correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the Gardai a investigative force?

Actually no, gardaí police, detectives (sometimes) investigate.

Originally posted by Camille
Scary premonition....Pat Byrne as new Garda Ombudsman

Ah sure he has the Taxi Regualtor Board chairmanship already.

Originally posted by sovtek
In America the idea of a citizens review board is often proposed, usually after some idiot cop kills an innocent person. Although it is usually rejected and I'm not aware of any one force that has one, I still think it's a good idea. I see no reason why that wouldn't work here.

The difference there is Concress can watch the Justice Department. The Justice Department can watch the FBI. The FBI can watch the state cops. The state cops can watch the county cops. If only they could do soemthing about Congress

vasch_ro

Originally posted by Victor
Actually no, gardaí police, detectives (sometimes) investigate.
Ah sure he has the Taxi Regualtor Board chairmanship already. The difference there is Concress can watch the Justice Department. The Justice Department can watch the FBI. The FBI can watch the state cops. The state cops can watch the county cops. If only they could do soemthing about Congress

sorry victor i will have to correct you here
all Gardai are trained to investigate crime it is one of their primary functions
generally detective Gardai would investigate more serious crime in their area
like murders , robberies etc etc

It was for me interesting to read in the papers today particularly the Sunday Indo piece by Jim Cusack about the the lack of balance of the prime time programme
and that one of the people portrayed on the piece who accused the Gardai of Brutality was in fact himself involved in what the paper calls one the the most horrific racially motivated assaults ever in this country whereby a mixed race couple were attacked and called ****** lovers in the city centre in 2000
Philip Uzell got 9 months in March 2002 for his part in this racist attack ,conviently left out of the programme

Victor

Originally posted by vasch_ro
sorry victor i will have to correct you here

Sorry I was being somewhere between humourous and sarcastic. There are very real lines between uniformed and plain clothes Gardaí.

Originally posted by vasch_ro
It was for me interesting to read in the papers today particularly the Sunday Indo piece by Jim Cusack about the the lack of balance of the prime time programme

Probably a fair point and while I've only met Jim once and he seemed like a nice guy a lot of his writing seems aimed at protecting his sources for scoops.

Video (not gardaí)
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=1315173#post1315173

spanner

yea i would agree its a disgrace the way the gardai act. there has to be proper gardaì complaints proceedure because the gardaì should not have to police itself and i think that most gardaì privately dont want to police themselves. If they know they cant get away with it they wont do it.
but i would not be as quick to jump on the band wagon and start to critizes the gardaì themselves. since the gardaì was established this is how they deal with things, by all accounts in the the 70s the situation was way worse. i have heard stories of gardaì recriuting locals to go sort out troublesome dublin holiday makers. if you are a gard coming into a force you have to look to the older gardaì as a role model on how to behave because whatever crap they teach in templemore goes out the window when the hit the mean streets and they have to copy their colluegues.
we have also got to remeber how rough the streets of our cities are, and the pure scum that are out there but they get roughed up by the gardaì butter wouldnt melt in their mouth and the are claiming for thousands. it puts alot of pressure on them and the fact that like the health service they are also under resourced.
the government need to get the finger out and solve this problem because by the look of the figure that they are handing out in compensation they will probably save money and also i think it would be good for the average gard changing their envoirnment knowing that such behaviour is unacceptable and they wont get away with it

projectmayhem

we need an ombudsman who's indipendant from the gardaí. though knowing this country that wont happen until we have a commission to look into it, a few tribunals, some scandals and then right before an election an ombudsman will be brought in.

Victor

Hmmm, things start coming out of the cracks.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/2333038?view=Eircomnet

Solicitor who sued gardai not told of appeal
From:ireland.com
Monday, 12th January, 2004

The Law Society will be asked to intervene today by the solicitor who successfully sued the Garda Síochána for libel. This follows the revelation that one of the gardaí at the centre of the case successfully appealed a disciplinary finding against him.

Ms Grainne Malone's solicitor will also be seeking an explanation from the Garda Síochána.

Ms Malone told The Irish Times that she learned of the successful appeal from last week's Prime Time programme. One of the cases described in the programme was hers, where she brought a libel action against the State for comments made about her to one of her clients during questioning by two members of the force, Garda William Dempsey and Garda Eddie Brennan, in Tallaght.

These comments, as well as threats to the client that he would be sexually assaulted in Mountjoy, were recorded on the Garda video camera. The case was settled out of court for a substantial sum, and a statement from the Garda upholding her professional integrity.

Ms Malone said that when she became aware of the contents of the video in April 2002 she wrote to the then Garda commissioner, Mr Pat Byrne, asking him to investigate the threats to her client and the comments about her. In July that year Supt Malachy Mulligan took a statement from her, and said he would keep her informed about the investigation. She heard nothing until a few weeks before the High Court libel action, when she was summoned to appear as a witness at the disciplinary hearing in June 2003. But the night before the hearing she was telephoned by an inspector from Tallaght Garda station saying she would not be required. She was not given a reason.

The next information she received was during the High Court action, when she was told the two gardaí had been fined, and that one had lodged an appeal. She was not called as a witness for this appeal, nor was she informed of its outcome.

"The first I heard of the overturning of Garda Dempsey's conviction was the Prime Time programme," Ms Malone said. "At no stage was I called as a witness. In a criminal case either the accused pleads guilty, or there is a full hearing."

If there is a guilty plea in a criminal case, the accused cannot then appeal the conviction. Ms Malone is in the dark about what happened during this disciplinary process, despite having said in her statement to Supt Mulligan: "I understand that I will be informed of the progress and outcome of the investigation."

"If the State has to pay out substantial compensation, and costs, how does that not constitute a breach of discipline?" she asked.

The Irish Times asked the Garda Press Office yesterday if complainants were normally called as witnesses for disciplinary hearings and informed of their outcome, along with other questions, but was told it would be today at the earliest before they could be answered.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/topstories/2339477?view=Eircomnet

Gardai facing new disciplinary measures
From:ireland.com
Tuesday, 13th January, 2004

The Minister for Justice will provide for new disciplinary procedures within the Garda Síochána in the new Garda Bill, which will be published in the coming weeks, The Irish Times has learned.

They will address many of the concerns raised in last week's Prime Time programme, the statement from the DPP about the difficulty in taking prosecutions against Gardaí accused of misconduct because of delays in complaints being finalised by the Garda Complaints Board and other concerns arising from various controversies concerning the Garda. The new disciplinary regime will provide for regulations, to be issued by the Minister, with the approval of the Government. Both the Law Society and the Bar Council are likely to make submissions to Mr McDowell on the matter, as both will be discussing the issue later this week.

The Law Society is also expected to seek a meeting with the Garda Commissioner to raise its serious concerns about the case involving a solicitor, Ms Grainne Malone, who successfully sued the State for libel arising out of the actions of two members of the force based in Tallaght.

Both were disciplined and fined, but the verdict against one of them was overturned on appeal. She told The Irish Times at the weekend that she was not informed of the appeal, or asked to give evidence, and learned of the successful appeal only through the Prime Time programme. A Garda spokesman said appeals against decisions of disciplinary tribunals are dealt with on transcripts.

They are heard by a three-man panel, consisting of a senior member of the force, a representative of the representative body to which the accused Garda belongs, and a solicitor or barrister.

The criminal law committee of the Law Society discussed the Grainne Malone case at its meeting last night, and will table a resolution to the Council of the Law Society on Friday, asking the society's president to seek a meeting with the Commissioner to discuss the case. This meeting is also likely to discuss the broader issues raised, and the Minister's pending legislation.

The issues raised on the programme, and in particular the allegation by a retired Circuit Court judge, Judge Anthony Murphy, that members of the Garda Síochána have committed perjury, will also be discussed within the Bar Council later this week.

While many of the matters highlighted by the Prime Time programme were previously in the public domain, the intervention of Judge Murphy, and the revelations surrounding the Grainne Malone case, brought concern about the internal discipline to a new level. The Labour Party and the Irish Council for Civil Liberties have both called for urgent action on the issues raised.

Victor

Once more, Jim cusack defends his inside contacts.

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/2367142?view=Eircomnet

Gardai want cases put back due to Prime Time on force
From:The Irish Independent
Sunday, 18th January, 2004

JIM CUSACK

LAWYERS representing six Dublin gardai facing charges arising from the 2002 May Day anti-globalisation demonstration in Dublin city centre are to seek adjournments of their cases on the grounds that the RTE Prime Time programme on alleged Garda brutality has prejudiced their trials.

The Prime Time programme, last Thursday week, made a number of allegations that gardai were involved in violent behaviour and included video footage made by protestors of gardai wielding batons at the anti-globalisation demonstration in Dame Street, Dublin.

The trials of three gardai on assault charges which were to have begun in the Dublin Circuit Court on Tuesday were adjourned after lawyers argued that their clients' cases had been compromised by the programme.

An application is to be made in the High Court tomorrow to have the cases of all six gardai put back for at least nine months because of the likely prejudicial effect of the programme on the gardai.

Gardai in Dublin said yesterday that the Prime Time programme has already had an impact in placing doubts in people's minds about gardai behaviour.

On Friday, a jury acquitted a man accused of threatening to kill a garda, in the face of what was believed to be overwhelming evidence from witnesses and gardai.

The six gardai involved in the Dublin May Day anti-globalisation demonstrations, who were filmed by demonstrators using their batons in Dame Street, are all mounting defences that they wereacting within their powers to break up an unlawful gathering.

It is understood their lawyers will argue that RTE's broadcasting of video footage taken by the demonstrators may have fatally prejudiced the gardai's chances of a fair trial at least within the coming weeks or months.

Gardai say that the inclusion of the May Day demonstrators' video footage alongside claims by a number of people to have been assaulted by gardai was seriously prejudicial against the young gardai facing trial.

vasch_ro

Victor
every one in the country is entitled to a fair trial, surely even you can agree with that ?

bonkey

Originally posted by vasch_ro
every one in the country is entitled to a fair trial, surely even you can agree with that ?

Everyone is indeed entitled to a fair trial.

If, as a matter of interest, it had been a case of protestors allegedly attacking gardai which was being brought to court, do you believe a 9-month delay would also be appropriate?

If not, then why not?

jc

Sparks

And they're at it again over the last few days:

A statement by Eoin Rice:

Today, Saturday the 17th of January, in Galway at around 8.30 am myself and two friends were assaulted and harassed severely by several men, some of whom wore the uniform of the Gardai Siochana.

Our conversation with some EU delegates in the market in Galway was broken up. A uniformed man pushed me across the street saying "you have no business talking to that man", this man being a Dutch EU delegate.

I was pushed up against a wall by the gardai who then tied to search me saying something about the drugs act and tried to take a dictaphone from my pocket. I said "Are you on drugs or off your head, keep away from me".

Within 10 minutes of this incident I was assualted again by two plain clothes gardai. I took photos of the two men who then stopped me, demanding to know what it was I took a photo of. These men refused to identify themselves and then proceeded to bundle me into an unmarked car apparently just for asking their names. I was handcuffed behind my back and pulled into the car by my hair. I protested loudly and resisted and when in the car pressed the horn with my toe. I was taken to Mill Street Garda sation.

I was taken out of the car, by the hair, by Garda XXXXXX XXXXXX, the unlawfully arresting officer, and pulled into the station. On the way in he said to me "You've had your fun, now we're going have ours, and there's no-one here to see you now".

I was taken into the non-public area of the station. As soon as I passed in through the next door, XXXXXX XXXXXX swung me in a wide arc using my hair as a slingshot to accelerate me backwards into a concrete wall. The wall connected with the back of my head, smashing it, and I fell to the ground. Several plain clothes people then attacked me while I lay on the ground including XXXXXX XXXXXX and others who I had seen on the streets earlier.

One man stood on my neck as I lay on the ground while several others kicked at me and one man struck me across the legs repeatedly with a telescopic baton which had a large ballbearing on the end. At least a dozen uniformed Gardai stood by watching this scene.

After about a minute the beating subsided but the man on my neck stayed there for another minute using a door frame to balance himself. He kept asking me "have you had enough".

He was cutting off my breath and I could feel my head swelling with the pressure.

I was then allowed to stand up. I was prevented from calling a solictor or my family and was searched and thrown into a cell. I fell to the ground demanding a doctor.

About 30 minutes later a doctor arrived, examined me and told the police to take me to the hospital immediatly and to have my head stitched as the wound was still bleeding. I was taken to the hospital and I had my scalp glued at the back, my arm x-rayed and bandaged, and painkillers and anti-inflammatories were prescribed for a splitting head (no pun intended).

I was then taken back down to the station and told I was being released, at this stage I insisted on speaking to my solictor before signing the bail bond and this was the only way in which they allowed me see a solictor. I was bailed until the 2nd February to Galway District Court.

When my camera was returned to me I could see immediatly that it had been tampered with. The film had been stolen by the gardai as had two others which had been in my jacket. I was released into the hands of a local solictor who registered the state of the camera and took my statement.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Sparks

Originally posted by daveirl
Where is this statement taken from Sparks?

Seen on P45 and retrieved from indymedia. It's also up on the IAWM's site and other places.
And yes, I know, indymedia. But in this case, the S/N ratio is rather high.

regi

I could well imagine this kind of behavior occuring behind closed doors within Garda stations.

Several months ago, a window in my girlfriend's car was broken by vandals. We got to the car perhaps a minute after the window was smashed, and we saw a Garda with two young boys, aged maybe 13 or 14 against a wall.

We spoke to the Guard, who said that those boys had smashed the window and that he had called in for a car to take them to the station. When we asked what would happen to them, he made it clear that he doubted any charges would be brought, but 'if it made us feel any better, they'd get a few digs down at the station'.

I think I found the Garda's casual promise more shocking than the senseless vandalism of the boys.

Victor

The ironing is delicious.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/01/19/story130327.html

Trial dates set for 'Reclaim the Streets' gardaí
19/01/2004 - 5:25:37 pm

The Dublin Circuit Criminal Court trial for three gardaí who face charges of assaulting protesters at the 2002 'Reclaim the Streets' protest has been set.

Judge Michael White has set the trial of gardaí Thomas Victory, Paul Daly and Ronan Judge for October 5 .

Trial dates on February 23 for Gda Fergus Hogan, March 1 for Gda Donal Corcoran and March 22 for Gda Paul Tallon were set down previously. All the accused are remanded on continuing bail.

vasch_ro

I believe it is every bodies fundamental right to a Fair trail be they protester
or Garda whatever, thus I also agreed with Charles Haughey action on the grounds he would never receive a fair trial.
there had been so much media comment re prime time how could any of the accused Gardai get a Fair Trial ???

I'm sure if any of us were to indulge ourselves in momentary role reversal , wouldn't we also wish to receive a fair trial ?? I know I would.

It is wrong to call it a 9 month delay , it is an adjournment for the sake of justice.

Thats my two european cents worth

sceptre

Originally posted by vasch_ro
there had been so much media comment re prime time how could any of the accused Gardai get a Fair Trial ???

You honestly think they couldn't find 12 people who could walk into the court with no prior ideas (or few prior ideas with nothing concrete in their mind) about the certainty of their guilt or innocence? I'm relatively certain that we could find 12 people who post to the Politics forum who could fall into such a category.

Victor

Originally posted by sceptre
You honestly think they couldn't find 12 people who could walk into the court with no prior ideas (or few prior ideas with nothing concrete in their mind) about the certainty of their guilt or innocence? I'm relatively certain that we could find 12 people who post to the Politics forum who could fall into such a category.

Yeah, but the defence solictor would have us all challenged and removed from the case

vasch_ro

your dead right the defence would correctly challenge the situation

redflaremist

Originally posted by redflaremist
There is a street theatre performance/action called "No Justice, No Peace" which is focusing on Garda and State violence, taking place at the gates of Dublin Castle on Thursday January 22nd, to coincide with the EU Justice Ministers meeting. Everyone is welcome to come along and watch or even participate.
If you're looking for more information click here: http://www.indymedia.ie/newswire.php?story_id=62878

This is happening TODAY. We are meeting up at the Central Bank on Dame Street at 5pm. Come down if you want to watch or join in. Should be interesting... there are already ten million cops there right now...

Zappa

Well things are not as bad as they are in greece, wheree I come from.Police have a long story of frameing activists(e.g. in thessaloniki during the anti eu rallies), atacking protesters,murdering foreigners and getting away with it, and of course dealing with neo nazis........