US Citizens fingerprinted entering Brazil

seamus

It's a few days old, but I didn't see it posted anywhere.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1114806,00.html

And damn right too. I hope someone gave Bush a dictionary for Christmas with the word 'irony' underlined.

oneweb

Oh my God, I like it so much This is wonderful!

Woden

i agree, seems fair enough to me.

vorbis

its been there for years. Brazil has made US citizens acquire visas for several years. A friend got a free trip to Brazil for New Years out of it. His American friend hadn't realised he'd need a visa. My friend being Irish didn't and so he gave him the ticket!

Sand

Good to hear, can only make that bit more likely theyll catch the odd crinimal or terrorist.

Geromino

Originally posted by seamus
It's a few days old, but I didn't see it posted anywhere.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1114806,00.html

And damn right too. I hope someone gave Bush a dictionary for Christmas with the word 'irony' underlined.

Personally, I agree with the Brazilian authorities. And personally, I believe every nation should require visas for port of entry no matter what the policial climate between the two are. Surprised!

sovtek

This is not about getting a visa. It is fingerprinting and taking a photo. Getting a visa is a different process altogethe as well serves a different purpose.
This essentially is to (in with the new "transit visa") to track non-Americans travels. It's invasive, in-efficient and ineffective for purposes of preventing terrorism.
The hijackers of the planes involved in 11/9 actually had visas.
I agree that it's a good way to make Americans realize what it's like and how it makes those wanting to come to the states less likely to do so.
Fair play to them.

Geromino

Originally posted by sovtek
This is not about getting a visa. It is fingerprinting and taking a photo. Getting a visa is a different process altogethe as well serves a different purpose.
This essentially is to (in with the new "transit visa") to track non-Americans travels. It's invasive, in-efficient and ineffective for purposes of preventing terrorism.
The hijackers of the planes involved in 11/9 actually had visas.
I agree that it's a good way to make Americans realize what it's like and how it makes those wanting to come to the states less likely to do so.
Fair play to them.

The fingerprinting and photos should be a part of the visa process Sovtek. And security measures should not play favorites. That is my point. The security measures will not overly effect international tourism in the US in the long run, but it might do so in the short run.

As far as the hijackers, most had expired visas and some came across illegally via Canada. But then again, you may want to believe some of your other forumites in that there were no Muslim hijackers and that secret missles developed by the CIA caused 9/11 LOL.;)

sovtek

Originally posted by Geromino
The fingerprinting and photos should be a part of the visa process Sovtek.

That's your opinion, but in this case it isn't part of the process of a visa.

And security measures should not play favorites. That is my point. The security measures will not overly effect international tourism in the US in the long run, but it might do so in the short run.

But the ones that carried out the 9/11 hijackings had visas and were known to be in the US and as well were suspected terrorists. That suggests that the above mentioned tactics are ineffective. That being the case then one would want to consider that they are too invasive and ineffective, so therefore not a good policy. Unless there is another agenda at work.

As far as the hijackers, most had expired visas and some came across illegally via Canada.

And at least two had valid visas and were legally in the country despite being suspected terrorists and known to the FBI as being in the country.

But then again, you may want to believe some of your other forumites in that there were no Muslim hijackers and that secret missles developed by the CIA caused 9/11 LOL.;)

Something that is documented fact is, by definition, not a theory.

Geromino

Originally posted by sovtek
That's your opinion, but in this case it isn't part of the process of a visa. /B]

Actually, the USVISIT program makes it a part of the visa. Like any visa, it does not guarantee you entry. That is up the the custom agents within a country. However, a denial would needed be very substantial if issued by the customs agents.

But the ones that carried out the 9/11 hijackings had visas and were known to be in the US and as well were suspected terrorists. That suggests that the above mentioned tactics are ineffective. That being the case then one would want to consider that they are too invasive and ineffective, so therefore not a good policy. Unless there is another agenda at work.

The biggest problems have been a decentralized information sharing process and a lack of understanding of using/acquiring Islamic aliases. Fingerprints and photos would connect the different aliases to a single face (with possible variations of beards, hairstyles, etc).

And at least two had valid visas and were legally in the country despite being suspected terrorists and known to the FBI as being in the country.

See above statement.

Something that is documented fact is, by definition, not a theory.

There is nothing documented and verified with the two nut case theories just put up for laughs. Just because it is printed on the web does not make it true, doesn't?

sovtek

Originally posted by Geromino
The biggest problems have been a decentralized information sharing process and a lack of understanding of using/acquiring Islamic aliases. Fingerprints and photos would connect the different aliases to a single face (with possible variations of beards, hairstyles, etc).

See above statement.

That doesn't have anything to do with how those two got into the country. They both had valid business visas and were in the country legally. The FBI knew who they were and knew they were in the country. So much good that did.
So it seems with the present visa process (not the one being implemented) was sufficient for ID but still didn't prevent them from moving about freely and with knowledge of the authorities that would be most concerned with that fact.
A entrance visa and a visa that requires prior application are two different animals. Maybe that's what you were refering to and I misunderstood.

There is nothing documented and verified with the two nut case theories just put up for laughs. Just because it is printed on the web does not make it true, doesn't?

No but you seem to be implying that the fact that some of the 9/11 hijackers getting into the country legally and with the knowledge of the FBI was a "conspiracy theory".

simu

Julier Sebastiao da Silva, a federal judge in Mato Grosso state, ordered the move on Monday in response to new regulations requiring citizens from 27 countries, including Brazil, to be fingerprinted and photographed on entering the US as an anti-terrorism measure.

(from the article)

Who are the 26 other countries?

Geromino

Originally posted by sovtek
That doesn't have anything to do with how those two got into the country. They both had valid business visas and were in the country legally. The FBI knew who they were and knew they were in the country. So much good that did.
So it seems with the present visa process (not the one being implemented) was sufficient for ID but still didn't prevent them from moving about freely and with knowledge of the authorities that would be most concerned with that fact.
A entrance visa and a visa that requires prior application are two different animals. Maybe that's what you were refering to and I misunderstood.

Any time someone gets a visa, (no matter which country you are going), it goes through a screening process. How would the FBI know they were in the country Sovtek? Does the FBI have exclussive duties of port entry? No it does not. It was the INS that had the primary responsibility. That is why you had most of the intelligence agencies be put under one department. This problem was part of a report (part 3) published in 2001 as one of its recommendations. The INS, at the time, got its information from the State Dept and the FBI (read information sharing) of potential terrorists. The system was grossly inadequate given the present circumstances. So, when the visa went through, it may or may not have been known the now known hijackers might have been in the country.

Victor

Originally posted by simu
(from the article) Who are the 26 other countries?

I think it's a typo -I think it's only about 27 (mostly Western European) countries are excluded from the requirements. Essentially if you don't need a visa (other than short stay, business, holiday), the restrictions don't apply to you.

Wook

erhm, just a question, what will do with the prints collected and is there a limit in time they can keep these records ? will we soon also have to provide a DNA sample for entry ?

sovtek

Originally posted by Geromino
So, when the visa went through, it may or may not have been known the now known hijackers might have been in the country.

They did know:

"So, when they and their three cohorts approached Gate D26 before the scheduled 8:10 a.m. departure, the ticketing agents had no way of knowing the unsettling descriptions that lay within the files of the FBI, the CIA, the Immigration and Naturalization Service and the Customs Service."

Victor

Originally posted by Wook
erhm, just a question, what will do with the prints collected and is there a limit in time they can keep these records ? will we soon also have to provide a DNA sample for entry ?

RE: the American requirements. They will keep them in the mother of all databases. The intend keeping the records for 75 years (thread on the commutting / transport board). No they aren't looking for DNA. Irish people people are exempt.

BattleBoar

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3961395/

Brazil fines American Airlines pilot for gesture
Raised finger at security screening prompts official ire
The Associated Press
Updated: 10:43 p.m. ET Jan. 14, 2004

SAO PAULO, Brazil - An American Airlines pilot was fined nearly $13,000 Wednesday on accusations he made an obscene gesture when being photographed at the airport as part of entry requirements for U.S. citizens, officials said.

Brazil imposed the new rules that Americans be fingerprinted and photographed at entry points in response the similar rules in the United States for citizens of Brazil and other countries whose citizens need visas to enter.

The pilot, Dale Robin Hersh, lifted his middle finger while undergoing the new security process at Sao Paulo’s Guarulhos International Airport, said federal prosecutor Matheus Baraldi Magnani.

Police accused the pilot of showing contempt to authorities, a crime in Brazil, and escorted him to a nearby federal courthouse for possible formal charges.

No charges to be filed
However, Hersh agreed to pay a fine before he leaves Brazil in exchange for no charges being filed, the prosecutor said.

“Since this was a minor crime I proposed that he be fined 36,000 reals ($12,750), which will later be donated to a home for the elderly,” Magnani told reporters.

Hersh was freed on his own recognizance. The prosecutor said Hersh expected to pay the fine Thursday. It wasn’t immediately clear where Hersh was staying Wednesday night.

The prosecutor said Hersh could have faced charges punishable by up to two years in jail.

Crew detained
Hersh’s 10-member crew was detained inside the airport when the incident began Wednesday morning and was not allowed to enter Brazil. Police said the crew was not charged with anything and was returning to the United States on an evening flight.

American Airlines spokeswoman Martha Pantin said the incident was the result of a misunderstanding.

“The company apologizes to the Brazilian government, the airport authorities, the police or anyone else who may have perceived anything they believe to have been disrespectful,” Pantin said.

Late Wednesday, when asked if the airline was paying the fine, Patin said: “We are taking care of any Brazilian government levies at this time.”

The incident is the latest flap in a growing diplomatic spat between Brazil and the United States.

The Brazilian requirement was first imposed at the order of a federal judge, but on Monday it became the government’s official policy, citing the diplomatic concept of “reciprocity.”

On Monday, Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva asked President Bush to drop the visa requirement for Brazilians entering the United States, while Brazil’s Foreign Ministry said the requirement could lead to a souring between the two nations.

“Recent episodes, such as the new system of identification of travelers, create a negative climate in public opinion with inevitable political implications, which is not in the interest of the two countries,” the ministry said.

But in Rio de Janeiro, tourism officials are trying to console American tourists arriving at the airport by treating them to samba music and dancers and giving them flowers, jewelry and T-shirts.

Brazil currently requires Americans to have visas to enter Brazil because of reciprocity.

uaobrien

Originally posted by seamus
It's a few days old, but I didn't see it posted anywhere.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,1114806,00.html

And damn right too. I hope someone gave Bush a dictionary for Christmas with the word 'irony' underlined.

Does that mean that the U.S. in Brazil will only be allowed to do menial work and be insulted by Brazilians who will scoff that if they wanted to live there they should have learned to speak Portugese like every decent Brazilian?

Will we hear stories of Americans being rounded up once a corporation screws Brazilian citizens over, because racial profiling shows that white U.S. citizens are most likely to commit those type of crimes than any other ethnic minority?

No, no, wait ... it just occured to me, and I derive great satisfaction from it, U.S. citizens will be an ethnic minority.

Geromino

Originally posted by sovtek
They did know:

"So, when they and their three cohorts approached Gate D26 before the scheduled 8:10 a.m. departure, the ticketing agents had no way of knowing the unsettling descriptions that lay within the files of the FBI, the CIA, the Immigration and Naturalization Service and the Customs Service."

Your statement does not reflect any actual evidence how the FBI knew they were there at the airport and getting on the plane. It only states that the ticketing agents, who do not have access to such files, were just another customer getting on the plane.