[Article] Racist war of the loyalist street gangs

Redleslie

I suppose this kind of stuff pleases the anti-multiculturalism crowd here since at least someone is breaking with the politically correct line and standing up and trying to protect western civilisation and culture from being swamped and destroyed by waves of backward non-egalitarian foreign types.
These lads might have something to do with it. It's funny that they accuse SF of taking an "extreme politically correct stand" and being pro-homosexual rights, pro-abortion and anti-racial segregation. SF too liberal? Who'd of thought it?

From The Guardian

Orchestrated attacks on minorities raise fears of ethnic cleansing

Angelique Chrisafis, Ireland correspondent
Saturday January 10, 2004
The Guardian

Not far from the red, white and blue paving stones, the Ku Klux Klan graffiti and the "Chinks out" notices scratched outside south Belfast Chinese takeaways, Hua Long Lin was at home watching television when a man burst in and smashed a brick into his face. His wife, also in the room, was eight months pregnant. The couple had moved into the terrace two weeks before.
Neighbours expressed regret but one white family told a community worker they couldn't offer a Chinese family friendship in public or they would be "bricked" too.

"It's like Nazi Germany," they explained.

Northern Ireland, which is 99% white, is fast becoming the race-hate capital of Europe. It holds the UK's record for the highest rate of racist attacks: spitting and stoning in the street, human excrement on doorsteps, swastikas on walls, pipe bombs, arson, the ransacking of houses with baseball bats and crow bars, and white supremacist leaflets nailed to front doors.

Over 200 incidents were reported to police in the past nine months, although many victims don't bother complaining any more.

But in the past weeks, fear has deepened. Protestant working-class neighbourhoods are showing a pattern of orchestrated house attacks aimed at "ethnically cleansing" minority groups.

It is happening in streets run by loyalist paramilitaries, where every Chinese takeaway owner already pays protection money and racists have plentiful access to guns. The spectre of Catholics being systematically burnt out of similar areas during the Troubles hangs in the air.

So-called peace walls between Protestant and Catholic communities are graffitied with swastikas and signs that read "keep the streets white".

Both local unionists and Sinn Féin warned this week that someone is likely to be killed or burned alive in their home if the campaign does not stop. But there are no signs of it abating.

The Village in south Belfast is a run-down network of loyalist terraces where unemployment is high, union flags sag from lampposts and almost every family has a link to loyalist paramilitaries.

In post-peace process Northern Ireland, communities like this are more segregated than ever - through choice. Last year, five student houses, home to mixed Protestants and Catholics, were attacked until they were vacated. The siege mentality against "outsiders" is rife.

In the past eight weeks, pregnant Chinese women and new mothers have been forced out of terraces and over a dozen Chinese people have been attacked. The Chinese community, the largest ethnic minority in Northern Ireland, has been in Belfast since the 1960s, but there are rumours that a "quota" on new arrivals is being enforced. Last month, Ugandan and Romanian families were burned out.

Many elderly Chinese people do not now leave their homes after 3pm. The best they can hope for is an egg or ice-cream cone thrown in their face or their shopping bags stolen.

This week, in the shadow of a paramilitary mural, a six-foot plank was hurled through the front window of the home of a Pakistani woman who was eight months pregnant. The spot where she and her brother-in-law had eaten dinner 20 minutes before was sprayed with glass. They had moved into the house 12 hours earlier.

The UVF and the UDA have denied paramilitary involvement but some suggest it could be "rogue elements" within their ranks with far right sympathies. One local newspaper has suggested the attacks began after a Chinese restaurant owner refused to pay protection money.

There has always been a crossover of far right groups with loyalist paramilitarism, while small racist groups are said to respect the loyalists and style themselves as "paramilitary groupies". Combat 18 is written in marker pen near Chinese takeaways in the Village and groups such as the White Nationalist party have penetrated elsewhere, threatening one anti-racist activist.

The British National party recently announced it is to field candidates in Belfast's next council elections to capitalise on feeling against the tiny number of asylum seekers arriving. The party is not thought to have stoked the attacks, although it will capitalise on the aftermath.

One local estate agent said yesterday that he had been visited by a group he thought were paramilitaries telling him not to rent another house to "Chinese, blacks or Asians". Ten of his tenants were forced out last year.

Desmond Birnie, a local Ulster Unionist assembly member, said: "The pattern of these attacks suggests that we are seeing a rerun, albeit on a smaller scale, of the tactics used by the Nazis in the 1930s."

Across Belfast, Sara - not her real name - sat behind closed curtains in her terraced house. Her front window is regularly painted with KKK, "black people out" and "I hate ******s" slogans. A Zimbabwean businesswoman in her 30s, she never opens her curtains to let natural light into the house, as the sight of her in the living room is a provocation to local teenagers. The shouting through her letterbox becomes unbearable.

"Sometimes when I'm in the bedroom, I see an egg hit the window and slide down. The writing on the window is replaced whenever we clean it off. Often I just leave it there. It has happened continually for seven months.

"Initially we wanted to move. We called the police. Then we realised it's happening everywhere in Belfast. There is nowhere to run to," she said.

There are 4,000-5,000 Muslims in Northern Ireland, most born locally, but there is no purpose-built mosque for fear of attacks. The community worships in converted houses it can barely squeeze into.

Last year, planning permission was denied in the Protestant-dominated area surrounding Portadown amid a local campaign warning people that residents would be "kept awake by wailing".

Planning permission has now been granted but the mosque won't be built, as the community is too afraid. In the past eight months at least eight families have been forced from their homes.

One family was shot at through their kitchen window, a number of Muslims were stabbed, one was left in a coma after a beating, others have had legs and noses broken. The community avoids speaking out. Whenever it is quoted in the media, the attacks get worse.

"The imam had to leave Northern Ireland after a gang of 10 smashed his windows and doors in, and told him he should get out," said Jamal Iweida, who runs the Islamic Centre in Belfast. "It's a matter of time before we have a fatal attack.

"The attacks are increasing. I can feel the atmosphere on the street. I have to be prepared to be called names at least once a day. I have a beard so I'm called Bin Laden or Saddam Hussein, or I'm told 'Paki go home'."

Duncan Morrow, of the Community Relations Council, said Northern Ireland, traditionally a place of emigration that outsiders avoided for 30 years during the Troubles, now cannot cope with the reality of multiculturalism.

He describes a culture of sectarianism that tolerates violence in young men. Racism has always run alongside it but is only now being noticed.

He said: "We have a lazy toleration of racism in this community. The situation now [in Northern Ireland] is what might have happened in Britain in the 1950s."

Members of the Chinese community talk of children being mercilessly bullied and ostracised, even a Chinese boy who won musician of the year. The political parties are under pressure to formulate some tough anti-racist policies to a community where racial discrimination legislation was only introduced 10 years ago.

But most of all, Belfast waits for the loyalist paramilitary leadership, which controls the working-class communities and young lads who live in fear of punishment beatings, to make a statement or move which shows the attacks will not be tolerated.

More on loyalist objections to the proposed Portadown mosque here.

mike65

Originally posted by Redleslie
I suppose this kind of stuff pleases the anti-multiculturalism crowd here since at least someone is breaking with the politically correct line and standing up and trying to protect western civilisation and culture from being swamped and destroyed by waves of backward non-egalitarian foreign types.

What exactly are you trying to say here?

Mike.

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/unison/national/2329121?view=Eircomnet

Barred GAA stars believed to be from the British army
From:The Irish Independent
Sunday, 11th January, 2004
EOGHAN WILLIAMS

TWO of GAA's most unmistakable stars were thrown out of a Co Tyrone bar apparently because bouncers thought they were members of the British army.

Cork brothers Setanta and Sean Og O hAilpin, who are half-Fijian, were confused with soldiers from the 'Brit camp', because they don't look local, witnesses say.

News of the fracas follows a series of racist incidents in Northern Ireland, including an attack this week on the home of a heavily pregnant Pakistani woman.

The GAA players have never been subjected to racism in the Republic, their Fijian-born mother, Emily, said.

Eyewitnesses say the dual stars, who speak with thick Cork accents, were asked to leave Bar Ten in Omagh, after bouncers suggested they were from a British ethnic minority.

"The doorman in question accused them of being from the British army camp. It was unbelievable because the Cork boys were unsure exactly why they were being thrown out," one witness reportedly said.

North-south accent differences prompted the O hAilpins - both teetotallers - to assume they were barred not because of the 'Brit camp', but because they were a 'bit camp'.

The witness, quoted in the Ulster Herald and understood to be a family friend, said: "At first when the word camp was mentioned they thought they were being thrown out because they were gay; then they thought the doormen thought they were from the 'travellers camp' and that this was the reason they were being asked to leave.

"When it became clear that they were being told to leave because the doorman said they were from the British army camp, they couldn't believe it. But the doorman said they were putting on accents and they left because tempers were starting to rise."

Setanta had returned home from Aussie rules club Carlton to see his family at the time of the Christmas holiday incident, which was the second such dispute with doormen in Bar Ten's two-week lifetime.

The principal of the local integrated college, Lady Rosemary Salisbury, says her sons were refused entry because they spoke with English accents. The Omagh-born school head said: "The boys were born and raised in England and never once faced this type of prejudice."

Lady Salisbury has agreed to meet the owner of Bar Ten, property developer Mickey McElroy, to discuss the incident.

Mr McElroy said he would not discuss either incident until his internal investigations are complete.

"A lot of people have been making comments which may be right and may be wrong - we don't know," he said.

"I have already spoken to one of the guys from Cork and that conversation will remain private because this is getting totally out of control and you've got to realise this is a new business with 25 staff whose jobs could be in jeopardy because of false reporting.

"I'm not confirming anything. I had a very friendly amicable conversation with one of the guys from Cork but I'm not saying which of them, I'm not even saying if the papers are right or wrong about the names they used. So papers are using names of people that may not even have been in the county," Mr McElroy said.

He went on to say he had invited one of the brothers for "a bite to eat" the next time he was in Omagh. He said it was wrong to suggest he had implied the two brothers mentioned in the press were not there. He said he could not comment on the reported exchange with bouncers, but said he would sack anyone who had stepped out of line.

Asked if Bar Ten has a policy of barring members of the army he said, "I don't take cold calls like that there on the phone because I don't know who you are, really.

"The north of Ireland is still a troubled area, you know. I am not making any comments regarding our security. Regarding our policy about who is let in and who is not, I am making no comment on it. I'm not sitting in a police barracks here being interviewed by a policeman, you know," he said.

The incident came as it emerged Northern Ireland is fast becoming the race-hate capital of Europe. It holds the UK's record for the highest rate of racist attacks: spitting and stoning in the street, human excrement on doorsteps, swastikas on walls, pipe bombs, arson, the ransacking of houses with baseball bats and crow bars, and white supremacist leaflets nailed to front doors.

This week a Pakistani woman, due to give birth this month, and living in a loyalist area of Belfast, had a two-metre plank thrown through her window. She is now understood to be in hiding.

The owner of a Chinese restaurant in the same area, known as the Village, told the Sunday Independent he is regularly forced to pay protection money to men who call at his takeaway. The man, who does not wish to be identified, said the gangs do not claim to represent any paramilitary group and demand payments of £200 each time they call. His business was firebombed following one occasion when he did not pay on time, he said.

The far-right British National party recently announced it is to field candidates in Belfast's next council elections to capitalise on feeling against the tiny number of asylum seekers arriving in Northern Ireland.

The Cork hurlers' mother said the Setanta and Sean Og had never been exposed to racism in the Republic. She confirmed that both brothers were in Omagh over the Christmas holiday period and said they hadn't told her any details about the incident.

Setanta has returned to Australia and Sean Og is on tour in Vietnam. Neither player could be contacted for comment.

mike65

Originally posted by Victor
Cork brothers Setanta and Sean Og O hAilpin, who are half-Fijian, were confused with soldiers from the 'Brit camp', because they don't look local, witnesses say.

and they wonder why we don't really want them...

Mike.

spongebob

Originally posted by Redleslie
I suppose this kind of stuff pleases the anti-multiculturalism crowd here since at least someone is breaking with the politically correct line and standing up and trying to protect western civilisation and culture from being swamped and destroyed by waves of backward non-egalitarian foreign types.

This Mlitcul Mullyculchie Multichecu Mulchieculchie .....its POPERY man, have you forgotten your own language !

M

Redleslie

Originally posted by mike65
What exactly are you trying to say here?

Mike.

Quite a few Enoch Powell types here seem to believe that multiculturalism and (non-white) immigration are serious threats to western civilisation and white cultural values, whatever they are, so I'd expect that they'd be supportive of any action that attempts to deal with those threats, whether it involves simple verbal abuse and intimidation, smashing bricks in foreign faces or doing things properly like what the Serbs did. Like I said to Sand elsewhere, how is this evil threat going to be dealt with in the future without using a little bit of the old ultraviolence. It's acceptable that thousands of non-egalitarian muslim kids were blown up to save the west from being attacked by Saddam so what should be done to save western civilisation itself? Surely whatever it takes will be a price worth paying?

The GAA players have never been subjected to racism in the Republic, their Fijian-born mother, Emily, said.

I wonder how true that is. I know that Jason Sherlock has had plenty of abuse lobbed his way and I've seen plenty of people suffer racial abuse here. That's a pretty weird incident though considering that the GAA and the Sinners are fairly down on racism. At least according to this An Phoblacht article about Graham Geraghty's "black c**t" incident they are.

mike65

I still don't know what your view is though -
are you for violence against funny foriegners or not?

Sorry if that sounds like a stupid question but your replie is ambiguous.

Mike.

Johnny 5

That's weird, 6 replies and not one condemning the loyalists.

Infact Victor, why you posted that article about them GAA lads on this thread is puzzling. Mistaking them for British Army personnel is a bit different than the attempted murder of ethnic minorities.

Can we get back to the matter at hand.

I praise the Guardian for raising the issue. It has been bubbling in this hole since the loyalist ceasefires, when they realised they couldn't kill fenians anymore (some still do). My old college has COMBAT 18 - **** THE POPE in huge writing splashed along the front of the building, as a reminder to us Catholics that we ain't welcome in a Protestant Ulster.


Don't worry lads, I'm sure you'se will find some way of blaming this on Sinn Féin!

mike65

Sorry, I think the inane, shavenhead scumbags who do this sort of thing are well inane shavenhead scumbags. I'm against this sort of thing.

Mike.

Xterminator

Originally posted by Johnny 5
That's weird, 6 replies and not one condemning the loyalists.

Infact Victor, why you posted that article about them GAA lads on this thread is puzzling. Mistaking them for British Army personnel is a bit different than the attempted murder of ethnic minorities.

Can we get back to the matter at hand.

I praise the Guardian for raising the issue. It has been bubbling in this hole since the loyalist ceasefires, when they realised they couldn't kill fenians anymore (some still do). My old college has COMBAT 18 - **** THE POPE in huge writing splashed along the front of the building, as a reminder to us Catholics that we ain't welcome in a Protestant Ulster.


Don't worry lads, I'm sure you'se will find some way of blaming this on Sinn Féin!

Eh! did you say it has no relavance?

It is just the other side of the coin mate.

The fact is that when we say its ok to exclude people based on their supposed colour, race or creed it fosters the seeds of racisim.
It is not a big step from attacking Catholics, to attacking other minorities, such as Muslims.
Nor it is a big step from refusing supposed 'British Army' types (who just happened to be coloured), to refusing anyone you dont like, like travellers, gays etc. And if we can refuse them entry to the pubs, why not refuse them entry to the shops, or the buses etc?

Both incidents highlight the hate culture that blights northern politics, where bigotry seems as endemic as ever.

X

Sand

What exactly are you trying to say here?

Hes had a bee in his bonnet ever since the actor JRD said that western values such as freedom of speech, religious worship and secularism could be placed under threat by the changing demographics in Europe, due to immigration from cultures where these values were not held as dearly, if at all. To Redleslies mind this is a rallying call for bringing back the good old days of Belsen and Dachau - clearly to Redleslies mind such camps were a triumph and defence of the above noted values, not their lowest point in European history. Since then Redleslie has burst into threads like this one insistent that death camps are the way to solve the threat to western values.

Like I said to Sand elsewhere, how is this evil threat going to be dealt with in the future without using a little bit of the old ultraviolence.

Yep, youve obviously mastered the art of saying, but not apparently of reading. Look at this post where Ive already told you how I believe any differences between cultural mindsets should hopefully resolve themselves within two or three generations assuming ghettoisation doesnt take place. I know, I know, you continued ranting on that the only solution was to round them all up and kill them all but I think youre going way, way, way overboard. I dont agree with you on this, I feel that such death camps were the lowest point of western culture - maybe you dont, maybe you think they were the high point. Your entitled to that view, but please dont assign it to me. Its strawman debating. Tackle me on my beliefs and views, not on your beliefs and views.

I suppose this kind of stuff pleases the anti-multiculturalism crowd here since at least someone is breaking with the politically correct line

Actually its a symptom of multiculturalism. Tribalism, hate, violence and intimidation. Whats happening in Belfast happens everywhere two tribes come into contact. Irish Catholics and British Protestants - all thats new here is a different "them" and "us". Yay for multiculturalism.

spongebob

I love this bit from Redleslie in the link Sand posted there.

The Serbs, our fellow christians, would probably agree and that's why they had a go at fixing the problem.

He meant Srebenica in that quote....you know where the white Slav Christians attacked the white Slav Muslims in 1995 and killed thousands.

Go back to your ghetto in Portadown you dozy planter. You and your Combat 18 mates and the general Eurofascisti do not deserve a soapbox in this forum. Stop trying to point 'approvingly ' at efforts by 'some' to 'sort out' problems that only exist in your ghettoised little mind.

M

Dasilva94

I get the feeling that redleslie is engaging in a lame attempt at sarcasm.

mike65

Originally posted by Dasilva94
I get the feeling that redleslie is engaging in a lame attempt at sarcasm.

If so he needs to do some work on it!

Mike.

Victor

Originally posted by Johnny 5
Infact Victor, why you posted that article about them GAA lads on this thread is puzzling.

Quite simply because prejudice is widespread and not just focused in flashpoint areas.

Initally, I wasn't able to work out what "bias" the pub/ doorman had as Omagh is a mixed town (no doubt with nationalist, mixed and unionist pubs, hmmm unionist pub - just sounds so wrong). Although I now suspect it would be a "nationalist" pub, with the others less likely (but not necessarily) to bar soldiers.

I also found it slightly humourous that GAA players would be mistaken for British soldiers, the two groups be largely exclusive.

Redleslie

Originally posted by Sand
Hes had a bee in his bonnet ever since the actor JRD said that western values such as freedom of speech, religious worship and secularism could be placed under threat by the changing demographics in Europe, due to immigration from cultures where these values were not held as dearly, if at all. To Redleslies mind this is a rallying call for bringing back the good old days of Belsen and Dachau - clearly to Redleslies mind such camps were a triumph and defence of the above noted values, not their lowest point in European history. Since then Redleslie has burst into threads like this one insistent that death camps are the way to solve the threat to western values.

JRD said “I think that Tolkien says that some generations will be challenged and if they do not rise to meet that challenge, they will lose their civilization. That does have a real resonance with me.” Surely, the loyalist thugs are rising to meet that challenge. Surely the Serbs rose to meet that challenge a bit too well. How do you propose the challenge should be met?

Yep, youve obviously mastered the art of saying, but not apparently of reading. Look at this post where Ive already told you how I believe any differences between cultural mindsets should hopefully resolve themselves within two or three generations assuming ghettoisation doesnt take place.

No that won't do at all. What about the experience of the jews for example? In psychology there are a number of theories about the sources of racial and cultural prejudice. One of them is called 'displaced aggression' where someone who is not the original source of frustration is attacked when the actual source of frustration is either unavailable or is likely to retaliate. Sometimes the source might be economic (scapegoating of jews or blacks or muslims or whoever), social (conformist, conservative punitive or abusive parents), or denied or unfulfilled sexuality.

I know, I know, you continued ranting on that the only solution was to round them all up and kill them all but I think youre going way, way, way overboard. I dont agree with you on this, I feel that such death camps were the lowest point of western culture - maybe you dont, maybe you think they were the high point.

So on the one hand you envisage a future where western civilisation is going to be destroyed by non-white non-christians, but you can't envisage a situation where you'd be in favour of seeing measures taken to neutralize the threat eg, ethnic cleansing of infected areas. I think you're fooling yourself.

Actually its a symptom of multiculturalism. Tribalism, hate, violence and intimidation. Whats happening in Belfast happens everywhere two tribes come into contact. Irish Catholics and British Protestants - all thats new here is a different "them" and "us". Yay for multiculturalism.

Not a good point. Irish Catholics and British Protestants get on grand pretty much everywhere else in the world. You seem to consistently blaming the victim rather than the aggressor and implying that multiracial multicultural societies provoke the guardians of JRD's "dead white male culture" to lob planks through the windows of non-white non-christians, therefore we should keep non-white non-christians out. Not a worldview that is altogether realistic or particularly desirable really imo.

Interesting that JRD rants about women's rights and then goes on about the greatness of "dead white male culture". :rolleyes:

Redleslie

Originally posted by Victor
Quite simply because prejudice is widespread and not just focused in flashpoint areas.

Yes indeed it is. Recently a black family were said to be thinking of buying a house on my parents road. One of the neighbours went round with a petition demanding that they shouldn't be allowed to move in. Most if not all of the residents told her to take a hike. Referring to her husband (an Englishman who used to boast that he never employed blacks when he worked in England) I stuck in a cheap dig and said that it wasn't the blacks who've been so nasty to us Irish for the last god knows how long, but she didn't get it. Stupid cow. I think most of us in the republic would have witnessed racist incidents of various kinds but it'd be ludicrous to suggest that it's as bad down here as it is in NI or that in NI each side is simply as bad as the other.

Sand

JRD said “I think that Tolkien says that some generations will be challenged and if they do not rise to meet that challenge, they will lose their civilization. That does have a real resonance with me.” Surely, the loyalist thugs are rising to meet that challenge. Surely the Serbs rose to meet that challenge a bit too well. How do you propose the challenge should be met?

They only rose to meet the challenge in your twisted view. Im not sure how you reconcile the rather unique values of freedom of speech, religious expression and the right to vote freely for your government, the right of the indivdual being above that of the state (to varying degrees) along with the principle of secularism with the camps that sytematically raped, tortured, mutilated and murdered peopole for simply being muslim. Perhaps youre too blinded by hatred to see that such acts are merely the lowest point of western culture, and indeed any culture.

As for how the challenge should be met I will for the second time refer you to the original post I made in the serbian thread, I expect you to ignore this post however and continue to rant on that the only solution is mass murder.

So on the one hand you envisage a future where western civilisation is going to be destroyed by non-white non-christians, but you can't envisage a situation where you'd be in favour of seeing measures taken to neutralize the threat eg, ethnic cleansing of infected areas. I think you're fooling yourself.

I envision a future where changing demographics and our democratic principles implies that our laws and principles will no longer be determined purely by european experience but rather by the experience of immigrants from Africa, Asia and the Middle East. This is a clear result of immigration from cultures which do not share values which European cultures hold - female tourists to North Africa are still advised to "cover up" as the North african culture is different to the European. As Ive said before, the 2nd or 3rd generation will grow up as europeans and assuming ghettoisation doesnt take place they will view themselves as european and as such they will hold european values. As such I think any issues in that regard should resolve themselves within 2-3 generations. Unlike you I dont view death camps as the way forward. This is where we disagree.

Not a good point. Irish Catholics and British Protestants get on grand pretty much everywhere else in the world. You seem to consistently blaming the victim rather than the aggressor and implying that multiracial multicultural societies provoke the guardians of JRD's "dead white male culture" to lob planks through the windows of non-white non-christians, therefore we should keep non-white non-christians out. Not a worldview that is altogether realistic or particularly desirable really imo.

Wow - thats a really good counter. Care to mention any places where Irish Catholics and British protestants live side by side on such a scale as we witness in Northern Ireland?

Im not blaming the victim or the agressor - Im blaming the situation. You throw a match into a barrel of oil and who do you blame for the fire? the oil or the match? Im simply unbelieving that people can "just get along". Ive never seen two cultures happily exist side by side - switzerland was once pointed to as an example but the more swiss people I encounter the more it becomes clear that there is division between the german and french speaking regions. Look at northern Ireland - division. Look at the UK - division. Look at France and Germany - division. Look at the U.S. -division. Look at the Balkans - division. Look at the Netherlands -division. I personally dont give a bollocks about where people are from, but its clear that humans as groups and cultures *do*. Thats the reality. If you want to throw in cultures together and call it multiculturalism, grand - dont come crying to me when you see backlashes from both cultures as they rapidly define "us" and "them". Its not a coincidence that the nationalist parties across Europe are enjoying a resurgence with the increased prescence of immigration in recent years , its just another symptom of multiculturalism. Its wrong, and its not correct, but its utterly predictable and without doubt it will exist in Ireland as it now exists in the North. Look at the Balkans, why werepeople who lived just down the road from each other murdering each other with such savegery when their families had lived in the area for centuries - becuase of "us" and"them" tribalism which is *so* easy to stir up. You belive the serbs were justified in their acts, I dont - but I dont delude myself that the Balkans with their Catholic, Orthodox and Muslim heritage were anything but an example of multiculturalism , warts and all. Maybe Ive a low opinion of humanitys ability to live with people who are "different" for any invented reason. If so Im the less for it - but Ive yet to see and example of where humanity can rise above my expectation in that regard.

And as for JRD he specificially stated that if it was merely a genetic change in Europes population (i.e. the white, non-white thing which is such a big deal for you ) then he couldnt care less - it was simply the cultural values that european culture ( which he sarcastically, and you seriously refer to as "dead-white-male" culture) which he held as being important. Not the colur of the skin, or the religion of those professing them. But of course, given your views on the death camps being a triumph of western civillisation I guess you view the stoning of women for adultery under Sharia law as being the height of culture.

Interesting that JRD rants about women's rights and then goes on about the greatness of "dead white male culture".

I think he was sarcastically referring to the Michael Moore shorthand for the european culture developed since the greek city states.

Most if not all of the residents told her to take a hike. Referring to her husband (an Englishman who used to boast that he never employed blacks when he worked in England) I stuck in a cheap dig and said that it wasn't the blacks who've been so nasty to us Irish for the last god knows how long, but she didn't get it.

Whats that englishman done to you though Redleslie? "Us" and "them", its easy to define and stir up isnt it?

spongebob

Originally posted by Sand
You belive the serbs were justified in their acts, I dont - but I dont delude myself that the Balkans with their Catholic, Orthodox and Muslim heritage were anything but an example of multiculturalism , warts and all. Maybe Ive a low opinion of humanitys ability to live with people who are "different" for any invented reason. If so Im the less for it - but Ive yet to see and example of where humanity can rise above my expectation in that regard.

So white Europeans can' t live together and never have ( well known myth) and thats our fault . Its part of the culture or else its the air in Europe ...!

M

growler

I suspect the majority of the citizens of Europe will become European when there is a sufficient external threat from an outside force (cultural, military, religious , political or whatever). People tend to forget their relatively small differences to protect what they have in common. America for example , despite it's variety of ethnic groups and the internal strife that has existed between these ethnic groups for so long, has still maintained a fairly cohesive majority view of what it is to be american. I think that being american is as much about not being Bristish, Japanese, Communist , Vietnamese, Islamic as it is anything else.

Sand

So white Europeans can' t live together and never have ( well known myth) and thats our fault . Its part of the culture or else its the air in Europe ...!

What are almost all the states in Europe (especially after WW1 and WW2 ) based on? Nationalism. Theyre nation - states. They are fairly mono-cultural and where theyre not - i.e. a significant but minority rival culture also exists within the boundaries of some nation state - ( Northern Ireland and Scotland in the UK, Corsica in France, The Basque Regions in France and Spain, Catalonia and indeed others in Spain, Lets not even talk about Yugoslavia R.I.P. ) theres at best almost ritualistic division (Scots and English for example ) and at worst outright bloodshed or seperatist campaigns which are based on shaky grounds other than "them" oppressing "us" (Yugoslavia, northern Ireland, Spain ). I dont deny that Europeans (i.e. individuals ) can live together, but cultures make prickly neighbours - hell look at the differences between Dublin skangers and country culchies. Look at Redleslies cheapshot about the English guy he didnt like. The English fellah had done nothing to Redleslie but , dammit, he was English and we all know the English have done us for centuries - bastards!

I remain to be convinced that multi-culturalism is a great deal. all Ive heard so far is rants about ignorant, inbred Irish and how our cusine will be improved. Forgive me if that doesnt stack up well against the downsides.

I suspect the majority of the citizens of Europe will become European when there is a sufficient external threat from an outside force (cultural, military, religious , political or whatever). People tend to forget their relatively small differences to protect what they have in common. America for example , despite it's variety of ethnic groups and the internal strife that has existed between these ethnic groups for so long, has still maintained a fairly cohesive majority view of what it is to be american. I think that being american is as much about not being Bristish, Japanese, Communist , Vietnamese, Islamic as it is anything else.

Thats true, the idea of French and English nationalism can be traced to the hundred years war which was a pretty intense period of history. At the start of it the French and English Kings might hold the fealty of varying parts either country. By the end of it the difference between English and French was sharply defined.

On the other hand when there is no accepted external threat, such as today, people tend to highlight their relatively small differences.

Redleslie

Originally posted by Sand
They only rose to meet the challenge in your twisted view. Im not sure how you reconcile the rather unique values of freedom of speech, religious expression and the right to vote freely for your government, the right of the indivdual being above that of the state (to varying degrees) along with the principle of secularism with the camps that sytematically raped, tortured, mutilated and murdered peopole for simply being muslim. Perhaps youre too blinded by hatred to see that such acts are merely the lowest point of western culture, and indeed any culture.

In my twisted (I prefer politically incorrect) view, western civilisation owes quite a bit to duplicity, cant, murder, torture, exploitation and wholesale theft. That's why it's the tops! If I believed as you and Gimli do, that western cultural values were going to be destroyed by Africans, Asians and Middle-easterners and that “we” should rise to the challenge to defend them, I think I'd probably be supportive of actions taken to effect the removal of that threat one way or the other. I would support a policy of (let's not call it ethnic cleansing, so 90's) demulticulturalisation. I would denounce anyone who criticised this policy as being pacifists, appeasers, communists etc. I would propagate as many outrageous lies as possible to justify this policy which at the end of the day is for the common good because it just is. And lastly and most controversially, I would support getting rid of that freedom of speech and religious expression rubbish, since it results in the emergence of different social, political and economic philosophies, ie, (big horror dripping blood letters) multiculturalism.

As for how the challenge should be met I will for the second time refer you to the original post I made in the serbian thread, I expect you to ignore this post however and continue to rant on that the only solution is mass murder.

I didn't really ignore it although it was such a weak point I wanted to. I asked you to consider the experience of the jews. Your theory doesn’t help explain why non-whites and or non-Christians suffer unprovoked verbal and physical attacks whether they’re “ghettoised” or not. The responsibility lies with the individual perpetrating these attacks and his psychological makeup.

JRD was drawing a comparison between Tolkien’s work and the perceived muslim threat to Europe. There’s nothing in LOTR about how it’s hoped that the rampaging orc hordes will adapt to hobbit ways within two or 3 generations, assuming they get some decent housing and amenities. I thought he was making it quite clear that muslims are the real life equivalent of orcs and when he says it’s time to rise to the challenge of defending civilisation he means attack them, before it’s too late. And lo and behold, the British National Party in a surprising move, fully endorse Gimli's views, although with typical confused stupidity and hypocrisy they're critical of the "shallow consumerist nature of British and indeed western society". They've produced a leaflet you might be interested in which they want people to print out and distribute to film-goers.

We in the British National Party are organising politically to fight for the right of the English, Scots, Welsh and Irish natives of these islands to retain control of our own destiny and to preserve our own identity. That's why we'll be contesting every single seat in the country in June's European Elections, calling for Britain to be set free from the Eurocrats in Brussels/Mordor, and for an immediate halt to the mass immigration which is turning our 'Shire' into an overcrowded, over-developed slum like Isengard. Whether you think of yourself as a Rider of Rohan, as an Elf or as a simple, fun-loving Hobbit, the dark days that Tolkien foresaw are almost upon us all, and your duty is clear: Join the British National Party and our great real life battle to save the West!

There you go. Obey.

I envision a future where changing demographics and our democratic principles implies that our laws and principles will no longer be determined purely by european experience but rather by the experience of immigrants from Africa, Asia and the Middle East.

Don't worry, the shallow consumerist nature of western society will destroy any funny notions the foreigners have about life and whatnot before they even know what's going on. I’m not convinced that you’re basing your objections to Africans, Asians or Middle-easterners on anything other than simple unquestioned prejudices and stereotyping.

As Ive said before, the 2nd or 3rd generation will grow up as europeans and assuming ghettoisation doesnt take place they will view themselves as european and as such they will hold european values. As such I think any issues in that regard should resolve themselves within 2-3 generations.

Sounds like Terence O’Neill’s stereotyping and patronising of catholics - “It is frightfully hard to explain to Protestants that if you give Roman Catholics a good job and a good house, they will live like Protestants because they will see neighbours with cars and television sets; they will refuse to have eighteen children. But if a Roman Catholic is jobless, and lives in the most ghastly hovel, he will rear eighteen children on National Assistance. If you treat Roman Catholics with due consider and kindness, they will live like Protestants in spite of the authoritative nature of their Church.”

Unlike you I dont view death camps as the way forward. This is where we disagree.

Death camps no, but war yes. The serbs claimed they were taking out war criminals and terrorists. You have no objection to the casual killing of suspected Iraqi insurgents, so why object to a larger operation? To paraphrase Meh, that was quite a few more muslims who weren’t going to be pulling any triggers and subverting western civilisation.

Wow - thats a really good counter. Care to mention any places where Irish Catholics and British protestants live side by side on such a scale as we witness in Northern Ireland?

London?

Im not blaming the victim or the agressor - Im blaming the situation. You throw a match into a barrel of oil and who do you blame for the fire? the oil or the match? Im simply unbelieving that people can "just get along".

Now you sound like poor old Enoch Powell in ‘rivers of blood’ mode. Almost the same metaphor and everything!

Ive never seen two cultures happily exist side by side -

Well I suggest you go outside more often and live a bit.

switzerland was once pointed to as an example but the more swiss people I encounter the more it becomes clear that there is division between the german and french speaking regions. Look at northern Ireland - division. Look at the UK - division. Look at France and Germany - division. Look at the U.S. -division. Look at the Balkans - division. Look at the Netherlands -division.

Previously, you said that immigrants would become European, now you acknowledge that there are serious differences of opinion within Europe as to what being European is actually about. In fact, there’s an interesting thread here about a guy being unable to deal with being in Italy (which is in Europe) because it‘s different. So which European social, political, economic and cultural values should immigrants be ordered to conform to? Yours? You claim to be interested in women’s rights don’t you? Well there was quite a lot of division surrounding the issue of women’s rights back when anarchist Emma Goldman was being jailed for giving women lectures on contraception and in the conservative establishment corner, heavyweight Almroth Wright was complaining that “the evils of woman suffrage lie, first, in the fact that to give the vote to women is to give it to voters who as a class are quite incompetent to adjudicate on political issues; secondly, in the fact that women are a class of voters who cannot effectively back up their votes by force; and thirdly, in the fact that it may seriously embroil man and woman.” No kind of progress, for good or ill, can occur without division.

I personally dont give a bollocks about where people are from,

I think it’s reasonably obvious by now that you do.

I think he was sarcastically referring to the Michael Moore shorthand for the european culture developed since the greek city states.

No, I don’t think he was actually, but let‘s give the blabbering windbag the benefit of the doubt.

Whats that englishman done to you though Redleslie? "Us" and "them", its easy to define and stir up isnt it?

It’s against the law in this country to incite racial hatred is it not? I think it would have contravened the equal status act too. But maybe my parents should have signed the petition then for the sake of racial solidarity and the defence of their little corner of western civilisation, instead of being offended at being asked to support such idiocy. I suspected that my comment was going to go right over your head and I was right. Do you want it explained?

Sand

In my twisted (I prefer politically incorrect) view, western civilisation owes quite a bit to duplicity, cant, murder, torture, exploitation and wholesale theft. That's why it's the tops!

You believe such defines Western culture above and beyond other cultures that exist or have existed - that the rest of the worlds cultures have always been good, honest, and always gentle? Thats a load of crap. Whilst all of the above have occurred throughout Western history the exact same has happened throughout all cultures.

If I believed as you and Gimli do, that western cultural values were going to be destroyed by Africans, Asians and Middle-easterners and that “we” should rise to the challenge to defend them, I think I'd probably be supportive of actions taken to effect the removal of that threat one way or the other.

So, do you feel that African, Asian and Middle Eastern cultures hold the exact same views on say freedom of speech that the majority of Europe and the rest of the western world does? That so long as you dont incite hate or reveal state secrets you should be free to say what you want? How then do you explain the vietnamese journalist who was jailed for the high crime of writing a critical piece about the treaty vietnam and china signed over a border dispute. He felt vietnam surrendered too much to China. How about the imposition of Sharia law in Nigeria, where recently a father was sentenced to be stoned to death for raping his daughter, and his daughter (pregnant with his child ) was sentenced to 100 lashes for being raped by her father ? Or how about how dangerous it is to speak out in the Middle East if you were to criticise your rulers? Why are women warned to cover up when visiting say North Africa? Why up until very recently were U.S. milatary personnel ordered to wear burkas when in Saudi Arabia? What about the idea of where the church and state are practically one and the same as in Iran?

There are different cultural expectations - given our democratic nature we give voice to these different cultural expectations. Given the changing demographics in Europe then how can it not be said that our laws and constitutions will not be influenced by the cultural expectations of Africa, Asia and the Middle East - thats not destroyed, but influenced? If you want an example look at France now where theyre bringing in a secularism law which will prevent the showing of religious symboals in schools. Crucifixes, Stars of David and Burkas etc etc - this fits in well with the western ideal of secularism, where the reference to God is a huge issue for the E.U. constitution and indeed as I remember it was removed from the U.S. oath of allegiance - which is now being rather heavily opposed by muslim groups in France, with support from across the world. With their increasing share of the votes and organised lobby groups are you saying they have no influence on the law making bodies? That Chirac wont think "Oh crap - thats a fair bloc of voters pissed of for the next election"?

Acknowledging that our lawmaking process may be influenced by cultural views which have for example not yet embraced secularism on a similar basis ( yes, rant about the christian right in the U.S. , afaik they couldnt stop the reference to god being removed from their oath ) does not imply a call to start reopening Belsen. I reckon that so long as ghettoisation does not take place then cultural differences should iron out over 2-3 generations. Now if you want to belive that the only option is death camps - then fine. Thats your view. Not mine. Yours. If you want to praise the Serbs as defenders of western culture because they raped, mutilated and murdered thousands of Bosnians, Kosovars and Croats, then fine. Thats your view. Not mine. Yours.

I didn't really ignore it although it was such a weak point I wanted to. I asked you to consider the experience of the jews. Your theory doesn’t help explain why non-whites and or non-Christians suffer unprovoked verbal and physical attacks whether they’re “ghettoised” or not.

Jews are attacked in Europe because theyre blamed for being connected to Israel. Alot of the attacks in France for example are apparently carried out by youths of Arab descent (and in France the ghettoisation of arab immigrants is being recognised finally a major problem) - whats that...multi-culturalism you say? Yes it is. Two different cultures coming in to contact. Jews were even attacked when on peace marches against the Iraqi war. Give it a couple of generations and the grandchildren of those attackers probably wont even be able to find the middle east on a map, let alone get worked up about something happening to non-French people.

I thought he was making it quite clear that muslims are the real life equivalent of orcs and when he says it’s time to rise to the challenge of defending civilisation he means attack them, before it’s too late.

I dont recall him saying that muslims=orcs though? I dont recall him saying that the solution was to kill them all. Thats you, putting your words and beliefs into his mouth. When you talk about civllisation facing a challenge and having to rise to it, does that imply it is *always* a military challenge? That for example the segregation in the Old South wasnt a challenge to western civillisations values? Or that South Africas apartheid wasnt a challenge to western civillisations values and that it didnt have to risen to and faced?

I’m not convinced that you’re basing your objections to Africans, Asians or Middle-easterners on anything other than simple unquestioned prejudices and stereotyping.

Ah right. I guess I better put on my bed sheets and go down to my cousins house then and tell him Ive an objection to anyone who isnt white - I know because Redleslie told me so.

Twit.

Sounds like Terence O’Neill’s stereotyping and patronising of catholics - “It is frightfully hard to explain to Protestants that if you give Roman Catholics a good job and a good house, they will live like Protestants because they will see neighbours with cars and television sets; they will refuse to have eighteen children. But if a Roman Catholic is jobless, and lives in the most ghastly hovel, he will rear eighteen children on National Assistance. If you treat Roman Catholics with due consider and kindness, they will live like Protestants in spite of the authoritative nature of their Church.”

Does it? The above sounds a lot like a left wing statement in support of affirmitive action for people who arent white, or male. Are you equally ready to describe affirmitive action as stereotyping and patronising? After all, isnt social and economic inequality still blamed for committing crime and anti-social behaviour by the left? The statement I made is simply a common sense view that the grandchildren of, for example, an Asian immigrant will have no more connection to Asia than any other Irish kid. Though of course this will dissapoint the lefts social engineers who will feel betrayed by this integration into Irish society - dammit we didnt bring them over here to call their kids Anto!

Death camps no, but war yes. The serbs claimed they were taking out war criminals and terrorists. You have no objection to the casual killing of suspected Iraqi insurgents, so why object to a larger operation? To paraphrase Meh, that was quite a few more muslims who weren’t going to be pulling any triggers and subverting western civilisation.

Actually I do have a problem with the casual killing of suspected Iraqi insurgents which I stated in the "wounded" thread. And there is a whole world of difference between a military operation to defeat a rival government or organisation and the wholesale slaughter of people because theyre not Serbian. I know its impossible to explain to someone who probably reckons bombing a schoolbus is a valid military action.

London?

Youre saying that London is 45% Irish Catholic, 55% British Protestant (and Irish and British are vitally important as the ground theyre standing on could conceivably become Irish) and has a shared culture of mutual loathing?

Well I suggest you go outside more often and live a bit.

Well seeing as you have, I suggest you find me an example to counter the half a dozen Ive provided to support my case?

Previously, you said that immigrants would become European, now you acknowledge that there are serious differences of opinion within Europe as to what being European is actually about.

Well theres certainly a difference of opinion over what being Spanish, French, British, German or Dutch is about - let alone Austria which elected a full fledged Nazi bastard.

Sand

...continued.....

So which European social, political, economic and cultural values should immigrants be ordered to conform to? Yours? You claim to be interested in women’s rights don’t you? Well there was quite a lot of division surrounding the issue of women’s rights back when anarchist Emma Goldman was being jailed for giving women lectures on contraception and in the conservative establishment corner, heavyweight Almroth Wright was complaining that “the evils of woman suffrage lie, first, in the fact that to give the vote to women is to give it to voters who as a class are quite incompetent to adjudicate on political issues; secondly, in the fact that women are a class of voters who cannot effectively back up their votes by force; and thirdly, in the fact that it may seriously embroil man and woman.” No kind of progress, for good or ill, can occur without division.

Hahaha - 1873? All that shows is that Europe is about 130 years at least ahead of a lot of the cultures which are immigrating into Europe when it comes to womens rights. Afghanistan?

Whilst nationalism divides Europeans (Germans and Italians for example dont get on according to a friend of mine staying in Italy) there are shared cultural values which we can refer to as European or Western...womens rights, secularism, the right to free exspression and worship, the right to vote and a representitive government, and lets not even talk about the host of rights socialism has brought about in the western world. The above rights are fairly unique in the world. Theyre not shared as being vital in a lot of other cultures as they are in Western culture - a lot of the opposition to security measures is based on the claim that those rights are being infringed.

I think it’s reasonably obvious by now that you do.

Again Ill have to share this deep insight with my cousin. Now I know why I was always planting burning crosses outside his window.

No, I don’t think he was actually, but let‘s give the blabbering windbag the benefit of the doubt.

Well given you believe he was calling for death camps youre not really willing to give that much benefit are you?

It’s against the law in this country to incite racial hatred is it not? I think it would have contravened the equal status act too. But maybe my parents should have signed the petition then for the sake of racial solidarity and the defence of their little corner of western civilisation, instead of being offended at being asked to support such idiocy. I suspected that my comment was going to go right over your head and I was right. Do you want it explained?

Well its just your hypocrisy Redleslie - you rant through the thread with your holier than thou attitude implying Im racist and that where people come from is major issue for me, and then at the end you make a wisecrack about an English guy being English. You didnt make a wisecrack about the guy in question being an arsehole (which is what he sounds like ) - you made it specifically about him being English. It seems to me that where people are from is *extremely* important to you and your view of them. And its another example of multi-culturalism - Irish and the English.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
Twit.

<edit>

Subsequent to some PMs, I would like to apologise....apparently I chastised Sand in the wrong....

When he used the word "Twit", he meant it to represent the acronym "thats what I thought", and not as in to imply "You are a twit".

I foolishly misunderstood its being presented in mixed-case with a full-stop at the end to mean that it was not an acronym (and therefore the more-generally-used insult).

Apparently I was mistaken.


I would like to politely ask Sand - and anyone else who reads this - to be more considerate when using acronyms, abbreviations, slang, etc. in future when there is such a possibility of misunderstanding.

jc

Redleslie

You believe such defines Western culture above and beyond other cultures that exist or have existed -

Remind me where I said that.

that the rest of the worlds cultures have always been good, honest, and always gentle?

And that..

Thats a load of crap.

Certainly is.

Whilst all of the above have occurred throughout Western history the exact same has happened throughout all cultures.

I’m saying that the origin of modern capital and the basis of western economic and military power owe rather a lot to straightforward rape, pillage and exploitation. And that’s still the case today.

So, do you feel that African, Asian and Middle Eastern cultures hold the exact same views on say freedom of speech that the majority of Europe and the rest of the western world does?

As I may have pointed out already, people in western cultures don’t hold the exact same views on freedom of speech or anything else. Cultures are, after all, composed of individual human beings.

How then do you explain the vietnamese journalist who was jailed for the high crime of writing a critical piece about the treaty vietnam and china signed over a border dispute. He felt vietnam surrendered too much to China.

Nothing to explain. Individuals shouldn’t be discriminated against because of the antics of their government, especially if it‘s one they haven‘t voted for.

How about the imposition of Sharia law in Nigeria, where recently a father was sentenced to be stoned to death for raping his daughter, and his daughter (pregnant with his child ) was sentenced to 100 lashes for being raped by her father ?

Which bit do you find objectionable? According to this post from you, apparently Sharia law is too good for rapists and the like and the death penalty is the way forward.

Itd be cheaper than a gas chamber etc. And the people youd be shooting would be convicted murders, rapists and paedophiles- I dont think youll have a problem finding volunteers.

Or how about how dangerous it is to speak out in the Middle East if you were to criticise your rulers?

Well it can be dangerous here too. But I don’t think we’re expecting that the swarthy skinned slit eyed immigrant flood will be composed entirely of autocratic ruling elites. And there isn’t some evil conglomerate of jewish, muslim, black, and asian Bond villains in an underground complex somewhere planning to invade Europe by stealth by sending wave after wave of fifth columnists disguised as toilet attendants and tech support workers you know.

Given the changing demographics in Europe then how can it not be said that our laws and constitutions will not be influenced by the cultural expectations of Africa, Asia and the Middle East - thats not destroyed, but influenced?

Anyone that lives here legally, works, pays taxes and all the rest has the right to vote for whoever they want or to try change laws. At least I think so. It’s funny. I don’t see you or JRD or the BNP complaining about the influence that American or European immigrants may have on the direction of the country. In Denmark amongst other places, gay marriage is legal. Holland, hoors and dope. America has Guatanamo Bay, the death penalty, abortion, and most shockingly of all, you can’t drink unless you’re over 21. Nope, for some strange reason we’re only supposed to fear the Africans, Asians and middle-eastern (including jews I assume) types.

If you want to praise the Serbs as defenders of western culture because they raped, mutilated and murdered thousands of Bosnians, Kosovars and Croats, then fine. Thats your view. Not mine. Yours.

I would support them enthusiastically if I was opposed to multiculturalism and believed muslims were taking over Europe. The Serbs weren’t the only ones that indulged in ethnic cleansing anyway. They just happened to be better at it. But thanks to the Serbs and the coalition of the willing, there’s a few thousand more muslims who won’t be hacking off limbs or stoning women or crashing planes into buildings or taking over Europe. Hurrah for civilisation.

Jews are attacked in Europe because theyre blamed for being connected to Israel.

Are neo-nazis actually just palestinian sympathisers? And what about before the state of Israel existed?

I dont recall him saying that muslims=orcs though? I dont recall him saying that the solution was to kill them all. Thats you, putting your words and beliefs into his mouth.

JRD made it quite clear that he was comparing muslims with orcs, a brutal anonymous horde of ignorant barbarians who are going to destroy the west, not influence it. He said his father predicted the next war would be between islam and the west, that militant islam is on the rise and “there’s not a day that goes by that I don’t think of him and think, God, I wish you were here, just so I could tell you that you were right.” Why else would he bring muslims into an interview about LOTR?

When you talk about civllisation facing a challenge and having to rise to it, does that imply it is *always* a military challenge?

It could simply mean that for starters you should get out and start distributing that BNP leaflet and vote for a party that will do something about the muslim threat. It doesn’t mean the west will start bombing muslim countries to smithereens…oh wait errr….

Ah right. I guess I better put on my bed sheets and go down to my cousins house then and tell him Ive an objection to anyone who isnt white - I know because Redleslie told me so.

So what. Josef Goebbels father-in-law was Jewish.

The statement I made is simply a common sense view that the grandchildren of, for example, an Asian immigrant will have no more connection to Asia than any other Irish kid.

Well you're arguing two positions at once. Immigrants will become more Irish than the Irish and immigrants will be changing our laws and voting for nutty illiberal right wing parties. How does your “common sense” account for things like St.Patrick’s day parades which happen all over the world?

Though of course this will dissapoint the lefts social engineers who will feel betrayed by this integration into Irish society - dammit we didnt bring them over here to call their kids Anto!

Absolutely no idea who or what you're babbling about here. Total drivel.

Actually I do have a problem with the casual killing of suspected Iraqi insurgents which I stated in the "wounded" thread.

No you don’t. You insisted that the Iraqis had an RPG when there is no evidence and you have defended the murder of a wounded person.

And there is a whole world of difference between a military operation to defeat a rival government or organisation and the wholesale slaughter of people because theyre not Serbian.

Not when the military operation is illegal to start with and based on layers of lies. But wait, lying is ok by you as long it achieves the “common good“, which appears to be defined as whatever poorly reasoned ideology happens to be drifting around your non-consciousness at the time. That, more than anything, sums up your real attitude to western values.

Youre saying that London is 45% Irish Catholic, 55% British Protestant (and Irish and British are vitally important as the ground theyre standing on could conceivably become Irish) and has a shared culture of mutual loathing?

The Irish are the largest ethnic community in London. I lived there for a short period myself in a mixed English, West Indian, Asian and Irish area. Nobody burnt anybody else out of their homes. Oddly enough, after several generations of large scale Irish immigration and a few bombing campaigns, England is still a protestant monarchy. And how about Liverpool ?

Hahaha - 1873? All that shows is that Europe is about 130 years at least ahead of a lot of the cultures which are immigrating into Europe when it comes to womens rights. Afghanistan?

1873 was the year the Comstock law was passed. It was named after Anthony Comstock, the secretary of the Committee for Suppression of Vice. And it’s still on the books in watered down form. I don’t care whether or not you read links I provided but don’t comment on them unless you do. You’re pro-death penalty so by your own logic, it seems you’ve a bit of catching up with civilisation to do yourself. People may occupy the same space but that doesn’t mean they exist in the same time.

Well its just your hypocrisy Redleslie - you rant through the thread with your holier than thou attitude implying Im racist and that where people come from is major issue for me, and then at the end you make a wisecrack about an English guy being English. You didnt make a wisecrack about the guy in question being an arsehole (which is what he sounds like ) - you made it specifically about him being English. It seems to me that where people are from is *extremely* important to you and your view of them. And its another example of multi-culturalism - Irish and the English.

Most intelligent people would have no problem understanding what I was getting at. If someone wants to make race an issue, then fine, let’s make it an issue and let’s ALL judge people by the actions, real or imagined, of their compatriots and ruling classes.

Sand

Remind me where I said that.

In my twisted (I prefer politically incorrect) view, western civilisation owes quite a bit to duplicity, cant, murder, torture, exploitation and wholesale theft. That's why it's the tops!

I’m saying that the origin of modern capital and the basis of western economic and military power owe rather a lot to straightforward rape, pillage and exploitation. And that’s still the case today.

No problem.

As I may have pointed out already, people in western cultures don’t hold the exact same views on freedom of speech or anything else. Cultures are, after all, composed of individual human beings.

No, cultures are not. Is Irish culture defined wholly by your views?

Which bit do you find objectionable? According to this post from you, apparently Sharia law is too good for rapists and the like and the death penalty is the way forward.

Im honestly giving you a round of applause for your research and study of my past posts. Ive never had the same interest in others posts but I regard you with the respect you deserve for digging up a 2 year old post. For the record shooting is too go for rapists, especially rapists of children. Death penalty/castration is the way forward here. The contrast is with the flogging of the victim for the crime of being raped by her father - wholly in accordance with Sharia law no doubt. Whats the punishment for being raped under our laws Red?

Well it can be dangerous here too. But I don’t think we’re expecting that the swarthy skinned slit eyed immigrant flood will be composed entirely of autocratic ruling elites. And there isn’t some evil conglomerate of jewish, muslim, black, and asian Bond villains in an underground complex somewhere planning to invade Europe by stealth by sending wave after wave of fifth columnists disguised as toilet attendants and tech support workers you know.

Sure can be Red, free speech is viewed as a right here however, not a privledge. Thats a different cultural expecatation Id take it youd grant?

And for the rest of it as far as some are concerned there is an evil conglomerate of jewish / american villains in an underground complex somewhere. As for toliet attendants etc etc - please, youre only displaying your own stereoptypes.

Anyone that lives here legally, works, pays taxes and all the rest has the right to vote for whoever they want or to try change laws. At least I think so. It’s funny.

Of course - hence their legal right to influence the lawmaking process? Thats not at issue? Simply the fact their different cultural expectations will influence the lawmaking process - which you seem to regard as wholly impossible, if not even racist to even dare to suggest - inside every non-european theres a european trying to get out right?

I don’t see you or JRD or the BNP complaining about the influence that American or European immigrants may have on the direction of the country. In

Hahaha. Youre saying there isnt rampant paranoia and resentment over the influence the U.S., its culture and its economic interests may have in Europe and especially in Ireland? - Red, meet Vader - youve a lot to talk about.

I would support them enthusiastically if I was opposed to multiculturalism and believed muslims were taking over Europe. The Serbs weren’t the only ones that indulged in ethnic cleansing anyway. They just happened to be better at it. But thanks to the Serbs and the coalition of the willing, there’s a few thousand more muslims who won’t be hacking off limbs or stoning women or crashing planes into buildings or taking over Europe. Hurrah for civilisation.

Hmm how does one respond to a ridiculous strawman argument. I know - Ill say anyone who likes cats, obviously likes raping kittens and thus it is obviously wrong to like cats as people who do so like raping kittens*.

*Any perceived insult to Red is not intended and is to demonstrate how ludicrous it is to say that because one does not see the value in multi-culturalism with its attendant tribalism and tension that one is somehow in favour of systematic mass murder.

Are neo-nazis actually just palestinian sympathisers? And what about before the state of Israel existed?

Well by my logic, no.

By your logic - seeing as I apparently favour Belsen in your view (news to me ) - then yeah why not . Hell, under your logic neo-nazis would be anyone who disagrees with you.

In reality, plenty of people find the palestinian conflict to be very distressing. Arabs find it especially emotive to the point where stories about Jews drinking the blood of palestinian children on passover are published in Arab newspapers. And yeah, Jews are attacked in France over the Israeli issue - unless your arguing that French people in general have a problem with Jewish people? Is this an example of multi-culturalism your demonstrating for me?

JRD made it quite clear that he was comparing muslims with orcs,

Actually he never ever mentioned orcs afaik in the interview. You simply saw him talk about Islam, and with your deep seated prejudice that the Muslims were barbarians you then decided he could only be comparing them to orcs. Thats your problem, stop projecting your own issues onto others.

It could simply mean that for starters you should get out and start distributing that BNP leaflet and vote for a party that will do something about the muslim threat. It doesn’t mean the west will start bombing muslim countries to smithereens…oh wait errr….

Maybe you should vote for the BNP - you automatically assign muslims as sharing the same characteristics as Tolkiens Orcs afterall. You regard any cultural differences as being only settled by a bloodbath. Perfect recruiting material Id imagine.

So what. Josef Goebbels father-in-law was Jewish.

Stop dancing around your point - come on out and say it.... Or retract that joseph gobbels and his father in law have any relation to myself and my cousin. One way or the other Im getting bored of you wasting my time.

Well you're arguing two positions at once. Immigrants will become more Irish than the Irish and immigrants will be changing our laws and voting for nutty illiberal right wing parties.

Im *acknowledging* JRDs point that the chaging demographics of Europe due to unprecedented immigration will change the cultural basis of our lawmaking, at least in the short term - Im *arguing* that within 2-3 generations, assuming ghettoisation doesnt occur, that integration ( i.e. mono-culturalism ) will take care of any tensions/differences.

You are arguing two points - that the unprecendented immigration from other cultures will have *NO* effect on our lawmaking prcoess - and that the only solution to *ANY* problems is to gas anyone who isnt white. Thats your point of view. Not mine. Yours.

Absolutely no idea who or what you're babbling about here. Total drivel.

Multi-culturalism - more than one culture by defintion. If theyre calling their kids Anto then its safe to assume theyre part of the Irish mono-culture. So why the big deal over how great multi-culturalism is?

No you don’t. You insisted that the Iraqis had an RPG when there is no evidence and you have defended the murder of a wounded person.

Only in the video you were shown. And I stated there was nothing wrong with the the killing of the third man under the G.C - there isnt. I did state I had a problem with the rules of engagement, which seem far too loose.

Not when the military operation is illegal to start with and based on layers of lies. But wait, lying is ok by you as long it achieves the “common good“, which appears to be defined as whatever poorly reasoned ideology happens to be drifting around your non-consciousness at the time. That, more than anything, sums up your real attitude to western values.

Both part of wholly different debates. Raise up those other threads - or better yet read them to get my viewpoint as I doubt youre capable of bringing up anything new that Ive not already reponded to.

The Irish are the largest ethnic community in London. I lived there for a short period myself in a mixed English, West Indian, Asian and Irish area. Nobody burnt anybody else out of their homes. Oddly enough, after several generations of large scale Irish immigration and a few bombing campaigns, England is still a protestant monarchy. And how about

Is London likely to become part of another country any time soon? is the minority Irish community actively in favour of making London a part of the Republic and are they numerous enough to make this a nightmarish possiblity for the average U.K. citizen?

Or are the Irish in the U.K. simply a group of people who integrate with the majority culture.

I mean -0 why do you think the North is such a powderkeg and such a bitter one? Because Celtic trounced Rangers last time out?

Most intelligent people would have no problem understanding what I was getting at. If someone wants to make race an issue, then fine, let’s make it an issue and let’s ALL judge people by the actions, real or imagined, of their compatriots and ruling classes.

*You* made it an issue. You could have- as I would have- said to your outraged neighbour that the odds are they wouldnt be as much of an asshole as some of the neighbours we have, but you made a point out of where he came from.

bonkey

Redleslie and Sand...

you are both walking very close to the line in terms of civility. I'd suggest both of you calm it down a notch.

Victor

Who is JRD?

bonkey

John Rhys Davies

Dasilva94

Gimli Battles the Race Card

As Rhys-Davies himself put it: “I do not want to see a society where, should I ever have any, my granddaughters have their fingernails pulled out because they are wearing nail varnish. . . . Do not brand me a racist because I am most certainly not. But I will stand by this: Western Christianised Europe has values and experience that is worth defending.”