United-v-Newcastle(scores)

tomED · 12-01-2004 2:39pm

Thought it was a good game - even though very frustrating for me as I am a man u supporter.

Kleberson was terrible, when forlan came on he was worse......

United never looked like scoring - all compliments to newcastle for the way they played!

Definite Peno
Definite Goal from Silvestre - still dunno how paul durkin, after seeing the replay can say he was right about not giving the goal.

Bard · 12-01-2004 2:45pm

Fun game to watch as a neutral. I'd still rather have seen Newcastle win, just to make the title race that bit more interesting.

As has quite sensibly been said already, a fair result would have been 1 - 1, with Newcastle scoring a much deserved penalty (and Howard being sent off) and Silvestre's goal being allowed to stand.

kida · 12-01-2004 3:16pm

why should Howard have been sent off. As you can see from the picture posted the ball is well ahead of Shearer when contact is made. And as this was wide of the goal he would have struggled to keep it in let alone score.

It was the exact same as Lehmans for Arsenal on Sat who wasn't even booked.

BKtje · 12-01-2004 3:43pm

I thought poor old sylvester was goona conk out after his 2 tackles and 60 yard run in the second half. He certainly didn,t want the ball back after that.

Yer hehe i looked absoultely knackered. Fair play to him for keeping going in that last chase(even if he was dropping behind)!

With the way refs are being less generous with cards i dont think he woulda gotten sent off.

jank · 12-01-2004 3:57pm

Originally posted by kida
why should Howard have been sent off. As you can see from the picture posted the ball is well ahead of Shearer when contact is made. And as this was wide of the goal he would have struggled to keep it in let alone score.

It was the exact same as Lehmans for Arsenal on Sat who wasn't even booked.

yea but that was a peno wasnt it!!

kida · 12-01-2004 4:29pm

Jank- The poster said this so he was implying Howard should have been sent off and a pentaly given.

Newcastle scoring a much deserved penalty (and Howard being sent off)

The Penalty was given in the Arsenal game but Lehman wasn't even booked. I want to know why people think Howard should have been sent off if a penalty was given.

The Muppet · 12-01-2004 5:10pm

I want to know why people think Howard should have been sent off if a penalty was given.

Thats probably because they dont know/understand the rules of the game.

While its true that united do not have the established quality to call from the bench that they used to there is a lot of young potential there who are the future of the club. Fergie obviosly rates them and its not so long ago everyone (some united fans included) were slating sylvester, Fergie obviously saw the talent in him and stood by him . Ronaldo, Fletcher,Bellion,Kleberson, Miller and Robben if he comes may not be as good as the established players are now but IMO they will they be as good when they mature. United are building a formidable young squad for the future.

Thanx 4 The Fish · 12-01-2004 5:52pm

Originally posted by The Muppet
Thats probably because they dont know/understand the rules of the game.

Rule twelve, section five of the "Sending off offences" list, in the rules of soccer that you know so well, states that "A player is sent off and shown the red card
if he commits any of the following seven offences (5) denies an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick." So if the ref chose to book him then he could have also sent him off if he judged that it was an obvious goalscoring opportunity which he could also well have done.

Ferguson was upset afterwards because he says that the ref used one call to cancel out the poor call made earlier. Am sure if the penalty had stood and Howard was sent off then United would have been in alot of trouble in the game. However if it was just a penalty then perhaps United would have gotten into it a bit more, goals against them often seem to wake them up a bit.

jesus_thats_gre · 12-01-2004 5:52pm

Originally posted by kmart6
P.S. The reason scores is in the thread title is because there was 16 goals in the two meetings last season so there is bound to be some today

Hate that!

jesus_thats_gre · 12-01-2004 6:05pm

To suggest Howard should have got sent off is a bit too excessive, granted it was a penalty and maybe a yellow card, but a red would have ruined the game. The United goal should have been given and its pretty obvious as to why it wasnt - GUILT!

Overall Newcastle had the only other decent oppurtunity of the game with a powerful header coming back of the bar from Jenas. Pretty sloppy game to be honest.

As for Jank, just shut up will you. God you just pick random arguments with people and keep egging everyone on with childish come backs and unfounded arguments. Kleberson is only 6 months into his United career and is showing all the positive signs of a very useful player. Bellion needs more time to grow, both mentallly and physically.

Ah yeah fish, your taking this whole thing with TheMuppet a little too far. Do you honesly think the rules stipulate that Howard should have been sent off. For one, it wasnt a clear scoring oppurtunity, nor was he heading straight for goal.

The Muppet · 12-01-2004 6:11pm

(5) denies an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick." So if the ref chose to book him then he could have also sent him off if he judged that it was an obvious goalscoring opportunity which he could also well have done.

There you go you know the rule. Applying it to yesterdays incident Shearer was running away from goal and kicked the ball towards the byline. Howard braught him down so it should have been a penno but it was not an "obvious goalscoring opportunity" s play was moving away from goal ,so even if the pen was given Howard should not have got the red.

[Edit} As you can see from JTG's post and others earlier most soccer fans who do know and understand the rules would accept this.[/edit]

Thanx 4 The Fish · 12-01-2004 6:20pm

The fact that Howard fouled is not up for debate but he could have either gotten no card, a yellow or a red depending on the interpretation of the ref. The rules of the game allow this. Interpretation is the key, the ref could have given anything in the situation and gave nothing but the rules allow for him to do it. He blatantly fouled Shearer and with Shearers form it could have been called an obvious goalscoring opportunity.

The fact that the Muppet said that somebody else does not know/understand the rules of the game has very little bearing, if you had said that The Muppet had no idea of the rules of the game and based it on this situation then I would point out to you that you were wrong. Knowing and understanding the rules is not the important thing, interpretation of them by the referee and linesman is. I think that Shearer would have stuck that, (did anybody see Radzsinski's goal last week ?) and so it would have been that he was denied a goal scoring opportunity, however another might think that there was no way the Shearer would have caught up with the ball and not given anything.

Since it is all down to interpretation by somebody else, who I for one do not know, then it is tough for anybody bar him to say that Howard would or would not have gotten sent off. Does anybody have the refs address ? I believe it is published to the teams with the league fixtures given to them.

kida · 12-01-2004 6:33pm

Thats funny - does Shearers form allow him to score when the ball is out of play? Have looked at it again there is no way he could have got to the ball.

I know Newcastle fans think hes God but thats taking things too far.

Thanx 4 The Fish · 12-01-2004 6:36pm

Probably not, do you think that the ref, standing where he was would have known that the ball was that far ahead of Shearer or that it was almost out of play when he was taken down ?

jank · 12-01-2004 6:41pm

"Interpretation is the key" tftf said it there

i remember when man u played birmingham
early in the game the birmingham keeper (taylor i think) brought down a utd player that was going away from goal

the ref's interpetation of that was
penno and a red card

go figure!!
1-0 from then on in and the game was as much as over!

but when a newcastle player goes down..........
dont worry i wont start;)

The Muppet · 12-01-2004 7:07pm

Thats funny - does Shearers form allow him to score when the ball is out of play? Have looked at it again there is no way he could have got to the ball.

Yeah having just looked at it again myself there is no way shearer could have got to the ball. The only way he could have been denied a goalscoring opportunity is if he had tried to shoot at the time contact was made and he didn,t.

Probably not, do you think that the ref, standing where he was would have known that the ball was that far ahead of Shearer or that it was almost out of play when he was taken down ?

I'd be pretty sure he could see the ball and the white line from where he was.

jesus_thats_gre · 12-01-2004 7:12pm

Originally posted by jank
"Interpretation is the key" tftf said it there

i remember when man u played birmingham
early in the game the birmingham keeper (taylor i think) brought down a utd player that was going away from goal

the ref's interpetation of that was
penno and a red card

go figure!!
1-0 from then on in and the game was as much as over!

but when a newcastle player goes down..........
dont worry i wont start;)

So you believe, based on your interpretation, that he should be sent off?

BKtje · 12-01-2004 7:29pm

Probably not, do you think that the ref, standing where he was would have known that the ball was that far ahead of Shearer or that it was almost out of play when he was taken down ?

Thing is the ref was so far away that he didnt even think it was a penno so

Its kinda useless to debate this any further, both sides have made their arguments and unfortunately nothing you do or say will make a difference.

eirebhoy · 12-01-2004 7:35pm

This has nothing to do with what you are all talking about but did anyone see the photo in the Irish Times of the ball hitting Andy O'Brein in the face? Poor fella, he was on the ground about 5 times.

jank · 12-01-2004 8:09pm

Originally posted by jesus_thats_gre
So you believe, based on your interpretation, that he should be sent off?

no not my interpretation just basing my reason because an FA appointed referee interpretated it differently during that game and sent a player off for a very similar incident!

jesus_thats_gre · 12-01-2004 9:41pm

Originally posted by jank
no not my interpretation just basing my reason because an FA appointed referee interpretated it differently during that game and sent a player off for a very similar incident!

So your are arguing something that you admit you do not agree with?

cournioni · 12-01-2004 11:09pm

Originally posted by Thanx 4 The Fish
Rule twelve, section five of the "Sending off offences" list, in the rules of soccer that you know so well, states that "A player is sent off and shown the red card
if he commits any of the following seven offences (5) denies an obvious goal-scoring opportunity to an opponent moving towards the player’s goal by an offence punishable by a free kick or a penalty kick." So if the ref chose to book him then he could have also sent him off if he judged that it was an obvious goalscoring opportunity which he could also well have done.

He was facing away from goal when he knocked the ball away from Howard, and the ball was going out anyway. I'm not disputing that it was a penalty, it was a penalty in my opinion. But definately not a sending off offence, simply because Howard was trying to play the ball and it was not a definate scoring oppertunity.

James R · 12-01-2004 11:09pm

Howard shouldn't have been sent off as theres no way Shearer would have got the ball, he was going away from goal and Shearer knew he couldn't have got the ball thats why he took such a theatrical lunge and its this "dive" that cost him the penalty.

I agree it was a penalty but he shouldn't have tried to exaggerate it because I'd say that swayed the ref's mind.

Also give some of the young lads time. People were making fun of Scholes, the Nevilles etc a few years back when they came off the bench the odd time and look at them now.

On Kleberson I don't think hes totally fit yet to be honest and he looks like a 12-year-old kid thats about to have an asthma attack any minute than a 24-year-old world cup winner sometimes

cournioni · 12-01-2004 11:19pm

Originally posted by James R
On Kleberson I don't think hes totally fit yet to be honest and he looks like a 12-year-old kid thats about to have an asthma attack any minute than a 24-year-old world cup winner sometimes

Yes, definately. People have to take into account that the Brazilian League season starts in January/February (not too sure but I know it is a summer league) and he hasn't had any time off from training in over a year. The Premiership is only half way through the season, so he's bound to be unfit. It would be stupid to start criticising him because he has done alright in the circumstances.

jank · 12-01-2004 11:34pm

Originally posted by jesus_thats_gre
So your are arguing something that you admit you do not agree with?

eh .....WHAT!?

maybe you should rewrite it as

making a point about descions that seem to go united's way and that i agree that if howard got sent off it would have been harsh but none harsher than descions that have gone against many a team at OT

all ancient history now though

James R · 13-01-2004 1:13am

Originally posted by PORNAPSTER
Yes, definately. People have to take into account that the Brazilian League season starts in January/February (not too sure but I know it is a summer league) and he hasn't had any time off from training in over a year. The Premiership is only half way through the season, so he's bound to be unfit. It would be stupid to start criticising him because he has done alright in the circumstances.

Exactly, with the World Cup and then the Brazilian season, followed by a stupid international tournament followed by the Premiership hes had very little time off.

I'd give him til next season to show what he can really do and in the mean time anything he can contribute is just a bonus to Utd.

The guy obviously has talent though as I know people mention that Rogue Jnr etc are World Cup winners but Kleberson was outstanding in the World Cup so the potential to be great for utd is there

Pepe LeFrits · 13-01-2004 1:39am

Originally posted by James R
The guy obviously has talent though as I know people mention that Rogue Jnr etc are World Cup winners but Kleberson was outstanding in the World Cup so the potential to be great for utd is there

So was Gilberto, then again I think he gets far more stick than he deserves

James R · 13-01-2004 2:17am

Gilberto wasn't as good as Kleberson in my opinion. Maybe thats biased I don't know. I think Gilberto's problem has a lot to do with the team hes playing in at the minute. He hasn't found a settled role as such. Plus he can't be too bad to be in an undefeated side. Its easy to get outshone playing alongside the likes of Henry week in, week out

Pepe LeFrits · 13-01-2004 2:30am

He was the engine of the Brazil team and got a fair bit of recognition for his contribution iirc. At Arsenal he does a good holding job in midfield protecting the back 4, he's a sort of an invisible wall in front of the defence, unfortunately for him the invisible part gets him a lot of criticism

jesus_thats_gre · 13-01-2004 12:35pm

Originally posted by jank
eh .....WHAT!?

maybe you should rewrite it as

making a point about descions that seem to go united's way and that i agree that if howard got sent off it would have been harsh but none harsher than descions that have gone against many a team at OT

all ancient history now though

Maybe you should re-phrase that as "arguing for the sake of it....." You are agreeing with Fish because he is arguing with TheMuppet. You are trying to back Thanks4Fish argument while basically achknowledging you do not agree with him. You are doing this just to get at TheMuppet.

It was not a sending off offence, nor was it a definite goal scoring oppurtunity. It Shearer had not been tripped, he would not have got the ball. It was a penalty however.

Thanx 4 The Fish · 13-01-2004 1:04pm

Or at least that is your interpretation of it JTG. As has already been agreed, there is no way anybody here could say that the ref would or would not have sent off Howard. Whether he should or not is irrelevant, he should have given a penalty and should have let the Utd goal stand.

As for arguing for the sake of arguing . . .

jank · 13-01-2004 1:34pm

Maybe you should re-phrase that as "arguing for the sake of it....."

whatever floats your boat!?
your the one making arguements here

You are agreeing with Fish because he is arguing with TheMuppet. You are trying to back Thanks4Fish argument while basically achknowledging you do not agree with him. You are doing this just to get at TheMuppet.

yea my life's aim is to get at muppet:rolleyes:
i gave my view on what happened!
i dont really care if the muppet or TFTF back me or not(but its good to know that there are one or two out there that see my point of view:) )

where in this thread did i argue directly with muppets point of view?
dont think i did did i but im out to get him whhhoooo
message to muppet watch your back cause JTG said so:ninja: :ninja: :rolleyes:

im not saying for definate he should have been sent off but that was the case in the man utd game versus birmingham(in which you fail to comment on)
and i didnt hear many reds complain on it

im basing my intrepitation on that!
if howard got sent off it would have been harsh but not unthinkable!

jesus_thats_gre · 13-01-2004 2:26pm

Originally posted by Thanx 4 The Fish
As for arguing for the sake of arguing . . .

You could of have at least found a black kettle! The fact that its silver suggests that I am only sort of arguing for the sake or it

God I hate being like Jank...

I did miss this so much over the past few weeks

kmart6 · 14-01-2004 1:33pm

Originally posted by jesus_thats_gre
Hate that!

AWWW poor little you

eirebhoy · 14-01-2004 1:36pm

Why is it that United threads go on so long after a match?

Get over it!

kmart6 · 14-01-2004 3:02pm

Originally posted by eirebhoy
Why is it that United threads go on so long after a match?

Get over it!

Did you ever think people might still be discussing the match or in cidents during it

jesus_thats_gre · 14-01-2004 3:13pm

Originally posted by eirebhoy
Did you ever think people might still be discussing the match orin cidents during it

Originally posted by kmart6
Why is it that United threads go on so long after a match?

Hate that too!

kmart6 · 14-01-2004 3:21pm

Originally posted by jesus_thats_gre
Hate that too!

Well if your going tohate something try and get the quote's right

BaZmO* · 14-01-2004 3:32pm

This is mad!! 5 pages of arguing of what way the ref should of or should not of interpreted (sp?) an incident that he quite clearly said that he didn't see!!!

Should this not be on the philosophy or mind reading board?!?!

B.

kmart6 · 17-01-2004 2:48am

Well see there could now be a few more pages to decis if it should go in the philophy or mind reading thread:D

United-v-Newcastle(scores)

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