Getting Into the "Big Bad Industry"

HaVoC

please dont move this it's about programming!


Just wondering how you guys made the jump from being a college graduate
with a degree/Or what ever education to a proper programmer? My understand at the moment is that u get a job as a junior programmer and work ur way up via training course. I have never seen an advert for such a job in my life, experience is always required!!
So any info would be cool on how you "Got ur foot in the door"

Also I'm doing a diploma this year what do you think my chance of getting job are be in in uk,usa or Ireland anywhere really ?

Was thinking of taking a year out to get experience and money before i do my degree

amen

joined the AIB gradudate recruitment program way back in 1994 as a programmer

uberwolf

Originally posted by amen
joined the AIB gradudate recruitment program way back in 1994 as a programmer

and where'd it get you?

hussey

Gradireland.com

that's where I got my job.

Hobbes

Most places are hiring grads now because they know they can exploit the fuk out of them in money and they expect it to be the norm.

scojones

I'm thinking of doing the exact same, HaVoC. I'm sick of being broke!

Typedef

Basically. For you're first job, the company will try to make you earn ... really low wages... or I'd be highly surprised if said company didn't.

You could maybe check out the programming jobs on the FAS website, but, probably 50% plus of those jobs are simply a means for company (x) to renew a work visa for a foreign national who is 'already' working for them.

You have to advertise the job for (n) weeks on FAS (turn down all applicants) and then your man gets his work visa.... and no marrying of the yokals is even required.

Hmm, is there not some sort of feeder program, where particular companies acitvely look for neophyte graduates to exploit?

Some companies with a history of taking/exploiting graduates from college (x) ?

Art_Wolf

One of the things I love about studying programming at DCU - in third year you do placement work in good firms - hopefully i should say - Which whould help

dazberry

Originally posted by Art_Wolf
One of the things I love about studying programming at DCU - in third year you do placement work in good firms - hopefully i should say - Which whould help

Good firms != good job

Not that I went to DCU but my placement was in what would be considered a good firm. But in that good firm there were loads of sh1t jobs. I didn't do too badly, but what I got to do was on a crap bespoke technology that would not stand to you. What did stand to me was that I worked hard, and got a recommendation (boss to boss's friend) in another company that got me my first job - also crap BTW job, but it was better than nothing.

D.

GreeBo

Your chances of getting a job will be much higher if you have some sort of qualification and given the current job market, the higher the qualification the better, I would say a good (2.1+) degree is the minimum.

A lot of companies will go around colleges near end of year and do a graduate recruitment effort, or just look up monster or irishjobs, but you will need to degree first.

The "jump" to being a "proper programmer" occurs when you are no longer the newbie in the company.
There is no magic wand, you just learn stuff and gain experience as time goes by..

RicardoSmith

Personally I started in IT doing something else and just starting programming myself, for things I wanted done in work, when there were no programmers around to do it for me. Then started doing odd programming jobs as they came up in and outside of work, since once people know you've done one job, they tend to give another one. Eventualy I realised I had been doing the programming almost full time for a couple of years. At the moment there seems to be few jobs out there for junior and intermediate programmers. I've gone back to doing something else and am going to work on getting some certifications. But still doing all those jobs outside of work, just to keep the experience up. Its best not to have any gaps on your CV.

My advice is to get any job thats IT related, and then just wait for the programming job to come along. It will eventually. Any other experience you get will be useful even if you end up in a programming role. As in many small companies you might be expected to do support, testing and even looking after some hardware when needed. If you've wider experience then thats always a plus.

muffen

I've been working as a programmer for over five years, and I don't have a uni degree.
I'm a self-taught programmer, and I think I'm fairly alright. I got a job many years ago in support (couldn't get anything else). The company I started working for is a software company, and after 6 months in support there was an opening in the development department.
I applied for the job, and when I got the interview I showed them that I was a good programmer, even though I didn't have a uni degree, and ended up getting the job.

I think I was really lucky that it only took me six months, but even if it had taken three years to get to the development department, I would never have given up.

So, my advice, get any job you can in a software company you could imagine working, and then try to get where you want to go.
The one thing I have learnt is that talant will always be recognized if its close enough.

GreeBo

The one thing I have learnt is that talant will always be recognized if its close enough.

I totally disagree, at the moment chances are you wont be called for an interview for a "proper" development/software engineering job if you dont have a degree.

There are hundreds of people applying for 1 or 2 jobs at the moment, many with 5+ years experience, a masters and willing to work for less than they should.

You need to have something to offer these companies, other than "I used to work on the phones and do some development when it was needed".

That might get you into a place that has by-the-by development, like a small financial place or an insurance brokers, but not into a firm thats purpose is the creation of software.

My advice is to get any job thats IT related, and then just wait for the programming job to come along. It will eventually

I think that will have you on support for the rest of your life.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by redoxan
I totally disagree, at the moment chances are you wont be called for an interview for a "proper" development/software engineering job if you dont have a degree.......................I think that will have you on support for the rest of your life.

That hasn't been my experience. In fact I've never been asked about qualications ever! Only the work experience I have had.

GreeBo

Well what sort of IT company are you working for?
Do you have any qualifications on your CV?

dazberry

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
That hasn't been my experience. In fact I've never been asked about qualications ever! Only the work experience I have had.

Due to an array of circumstances I never finished college (only did 3 of the 4 years), so when I went on work placement I never went back.

In the early days I used to get in interviews about finishing college and used to spin some story - not that I had (or have) any intention of doing so.

The last interview I had - which was late last year - I got asked again. This is almost 10 years after the fact - I still get asked :eek:.

D.

GreeBo

Originally posted by dazberry
This is almost 10 years after the fact - I still get asked :eek:.

D.

This is what I was trying to point out;

if you are going for a good, solid Software Engineering position there are so many candidates going for it that they need some process to weed them out, usually qualifications (or lack of) is used to cull the mountain of cv's.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by redoxan
Well what sort of IT company are you working for?
Do you have any qualifications on your CV?

Software development house.
Yes none IT related.
Lots of good quality IT experience though.

I guess some companies look for qualifications where some put more value on experience.

GreeBo

Did you change jobs recently?

dazberry

Originally posted by redoxan
This is what I was trying to point out;

if you are going for a good, solid Software Engineering position there are so many candidates going for it that they need some process to weed them out, usually qualifications (or lack of) is used to cull the mountain of cv's.

TBH redoxan, I've never had that problem, which of course would suggest that I don't apply solid software engineering methodologies, and in fact just string code together in such a hap hazard fashion that it both works and is reusable - I must be a natural

Seriously thou' I don't disagree with what you're saying, in fact I would be of that opinion too, but from experience it didn't really pan out that way.

Ok, in the early days when I'd very little experience, and even at that that experience wasn't the most benefitial (I was primarily writing x86 device drivers for DOS) I've no doubt that I didn't get offered jobs because of the degree element.

Against that back in 1995 I remember I was the last person to be interviewed for a position in a software company, out of about 30 people, the other 29 I got the impression were graduates. The crux of the interview was to write a small program. It transpired that 29 (the guy ranted about them after seeing my code and I believe a majority were from one institution) of the candidates were unable to fulfull that requirement and I easily got the job. I didn't actually take the job and got offered second refusal 6 months later, and in fact got a phone call a couple of years after that to see if I was looking for any work. Pity they wouldn't ring me now .

If I'm truely honest, the problems I have today are:

[1] I've too much experience. I often get the impression that going in with 10 years experience is more of a hinderence than a help, in that I should be going in as a project manager, or product development manager (a role that I've turned down in the past too) because that is not what I want to do.

[2] Because wages are so low, that again going in with that experience - and I've been actually told - that when things pick up I will leave to get something better paying. Now I don't rate my abilities on what I get paid, but how can you argue with that?

[3] Possibly the most damning is that I've worked exclusively in the one language (Delphi) on the one platform (Windows) for the last 7 years. Now, I don't regret that, but I shouldn't have let my C,C++ get so rusty, and probably should have read that Java book I bought in 1996 .

So in truth, my legacy is not in not having a degree, my legacy is my experience. I believe a degree does become irrelevant - Modula 2 and VAX assembly anyone ?

D.

muffen

Originally posted by redoxan
I totally disagree, at the moment chances are you wont be called for an interview for a "proper" development/software engineering job if you dont have a degree.

There are hundreds of people applying for 1 or 2 jobs at the moment, many with 5+ years experience, a masters and willing to work for less than they should.

I got the interview without any papers. I got it because I went and talked to the manager in the dev department quite a few times. In the end I got him interested enough so when the time came I got the interview. At that point it was completly up to me. I got the job because I believe I was a good programmer, and I would work for virtually no money at all (badly needed the experience).
This worked out well for both me and the company. The adjusted my salary a few times as I got more experience, and because of that I stayed working for them. It's been over 5 years now.

So, I think it's better to be in a company that does dev, even if you're working in support or something, because atleast you have the chance to influence the people that you have to.

Typedef

Yeah redoxan, I was going to call you on what you said earlier, but, I really didn't want to give myself stress.

Basically, in the real-world [tm] companies look for experience, not fresh-out-of-college newbies, who think they are god's gift.

In fact, in the industry, it's the self-taught people who are more respected, due to the fact, that they are supposed to have 'drive' and a will to excel.

If what you said held up to scrutiny then Einstein, would have been laughed at by his peers for not having a college degree, he wasn't and completely altered the world of physics.

Linus Torvalds, for example, was just a 'student' when he wrote the original Linux kernel, yet, still, somehow mystically, the project spread.

If what you said was true, then all his 'peers' would have laughed at him, because he wasn't 'qualified'.

The CTO of the company I work for, exclusively talked to me about my 'experience' of the industry, and 'I' pointed out to him, at my interview that I hadn't a degree, after the man had offered me the job.

I don't mean to be insulting, but, you sound a little like a 3rd or 4th year college student, who thinks that he will breeze into a job as a mid-level programmer, by virute of the fact he went through college.

Not so, you have to start on the bottom rung, like everybody else.

Your comments about being confined to support don't really merit debate, for example, Bill Gates never finished college.

Support role?

Hobbes

I agree with Typedef.

Qualifications will only get you so far, and in this industry you have to keep learning or die. You have to show drive and intrest in what you do which speaks volumes against someone who has qualifications.

The industry is changing your correct. There are more to pick and choose from, and having experience and qualifications may not be enough. For some companies it's paying peanuts what attracts them for others its picking people with actual talent beyond the ability to code. If you can only follow guidelines someone gives you (which most coders can) then odds on your job is going to India (who will in turn probably outsource it to china).

I also don't have a degree, and while I have met varying levels of developers in the years I've worked in the industry I have seen some who clearly shouldn't even be in the computer industry but got thier job based on qualifications alone, because some muppet of an interviewer rated them on that and that alone.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by redoxan
Did you change jobs recently?

If you asking me that, then yes. Got fed up contracting and am now an employee again. In the future I do intend getting some certifications rather than doing another 3rd level course. Maybe if have time in a few years I'll go back and do the IT degree at night, but it will be for educational reasons rather than any requirement for employment.

Personally I find a lot of IT graduates throw technology at problems rather than KISS.

GreeBo

Originally posted by Typedef
Yeah redoxan, I was going to call you on what you said earlier, but, I really didn't want to give myself stress.

Basically, in the real-world [tm] companies look for experience, not fresh-out-of-college newbies, who think they are god's gift.

They do if its a recruitment programme. And, if you bother to check, you will see that this is a thread started by someone IN COLLEGE, who is trying to figure out who he/she can get a job.
So get off your hippie-high-horse and read the threads first.

In fact, in the industry, it's the self-taught people who are more respected, due to the fact, that they are supposed to have 'drive' and a will to excel.

Thats using statistics to prove a point, and badly too.
Trying to say that because a couple of non-college people have done well means that these sort of people are "more respected" is just idiotic.

If what you said held up to scrutiny then Einstein, would have been laughed at by his peers for not having a college degree, he wasn't and completely altered the world of physics.

Linus Torvalds, for example, was just a 'student' when he wrote the original Linux kernel, yet, still, somehow mystically, the project spread.

If what you said was true, then all his 'peers' would have laughed at him, because he wasn't 'qualified'.

Show me where I mentioned anyone "laughing" at anyone else?
Feel free to make up the other side of arguments on your own time thanks.

The CTO of the company I work for, exclusively talked to me about my 'experience' of the industry, and 'I' pointed out to him, at my interview that I hadn't a degree, after the man had offered me the job.

Do you no think that if you had had a degree in the first place, you would have already been working as a developer in said company?

I don't mean to be insulting, but, you sound a little like a 3rd or 4th year college student, who thinks that he will breeze into a job as a mid-level programmer, by virute of the fact he went through college.

Not so, you have to start on the bottom rung, like everybody else.

I didnt find it insulting, merely your attitude amusing.
I have been working as a Software Engineer for over 5 years now, with my college degree under my belt.

Your comments about being confined to support don't really merit debate, for example, Bill Gates never finished college.

ah yes, now THATS a good argument, coz there are SO MANY Bill Gates' around, oh no, hang on, there is only one, but far more "wanna-be developers" answering phones...:rolleyes:


Also, a college degree is used to by interviewers to see that applicants have the ability to stick at something, even when it gets hard, not just that they have an education in the required field.

Whew, Im tired now, time to go watch Buffy The StringBuffer methinks.;)

GreeBo

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
If you asking me that, then yes. Got fed up contracting and am now an employee again. In the future I do intend getting some certifications rather than doing another 3rd level course. Maybe if have time in a few years I'll go back and do the IT degree at night, but it will be for educational reasons rather than any requirement for employment.

Personally I find a lot of IT graduates throw technology at problems rather than KISS.

Yes, because all graduates are wet behind the ears and use their mommy's car and money and daddy's friends to get ahead in life, while all those cool guys who never went to college are the best, yunno, they have greasy hair and wear linux t-shirts.

so what the hell is wrong with "technology"?
would you prefer if I used my typewriter and then wired my response to you??

Gavin

Originally posted by RicardoSmith

Personally I find a lot of IT graduates throw technology at problems rather than KISS.

I'd imagine that a lot of that is due to inexperience and wanting to impress. You wouldn't get this maybe with non-graduate programmers because they may be unaware that other such technologies exist..

The advantage I'd see of having a degree over not having one, is that one tends to be introduced to a wide range of technologies in college. Certainly a lot of this won't be useful in one's chosen job, and as a result of such a variety of topics, one would not be an expert/experienced in programming.

For example. A self taught programmer will most likely know their language quite well, indeed possibly better than a graduate. However, how much does the self taught programmer know of project management, application design, software metrics, effective testing policies, teamwork, etc.. Granted the graduate will only know the basics of this, not having implemented it in a full scale project, but will be aware of it !

Having a degree could also be more conducive to achieving promotion quicker.. ?

Gav

disclamier : I am a scummy masters student with only a cumulative 2 years experience in software development in companies.

Hobbes

Originally posted by Verb
that one tends to be introduced to a wide range of technologies in college.

I have actually found that not to be the case at all. The number of degree holders who have problems with Windows is frightning, and don't get me started on the command line.

For example. A self taught programmer will most likely know their language quite well, indeed possibly better than a graduate. However, how much does the self taught programmer know of project management, application design, software metrics, effective testing policies, teamwork, etc.. Granted the graduate will only know the basics of this, not having implemented it in a full scale project, but will be aware of it !

Of course you equating a self-taught to a 'Hey VB is cool, I'll get a book' type programmer. I have met self taught people who know ASM, C++, Java inside out.

Likewise with methods in development, metrics, etc. Don't assume that all self taught programmers don't bother to learn that stuff. Once your employed in the field you will realise that you pretty much have to keep reading and know what is coming so you have good knowledge when it does arrive to give you the edge.

Having a degree could also be more conducive to achieving promotion quicker.. ?

Nope, its based on how well you look to your manager (or external to team) vs how much will the raise hurt them.

Yes, because all graduates are wet ... *Snip*
so what the hell is wrong with "technology"?
would you prefer if I used my typewriter and then wired my response to you??

You seem to be taking this all personal. The point he was getting across was that new Tech isn't always the answer, or more often then not the wrong answer.

Two examples off the top of my head, one guy rewriting an already working process in C++ (wasting 2 days basically) because C++ is 'better' when in fact the process couldn't go any faster then the machine running it. The graduate in question didn't know this but assumed the process sucked because the software running the machine wasn't in C++.

Or one friend who was working on a project to get loads of data from a server to a PC over 56k modem. He wanted bytecode sent from the server but the server developers wanted to send XML files as it was the 'in thing', which slowed the whole thing to a crawl.

threads gone a little off topic but the point is a piece of paper showing you can code isn't going to cut it anymore.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by redoxan
Yes, because all graduates are wet behind the ears and use their mommy's car and money and daddy's friends to get ahead in life, while all those cool guys who never went to college are the best, yunno, they have greasy hair and wear linux t-shirts.

so what the hell is wrong with "technology"?
would you prefer if I used my typewriter and then wired my response to you??

Well I definately wouldn't let you near anything too sharp.

The question is how do you get a job with no experience. I say get some experience in anything. You say no wait for the right job. If that works for you, great. Didn't for me. In fact over the last 2 years when many of my IT mates have been off work looking for their ideal job, and lately ANY job. I've been working on contracts primarily due to the fact that I have more experience.

Each to his/her own though.

muffen

Educated vs. Self-Taught

Seriously, I don't think it matters if you have a degree or not. You start from the bottom, and you work your way up. The degree only helps when you're trying to get the bottom job for the first time. That's today's reality, and that's it.

Most graduates aren't going to start on a salary of 50K, and most self-taught programmers won't turn into Bill Gates. We start crawling in the crap, and if we're lucky we're pissing standing up in the end!

GreeBo

Originally posted by RicardoSmith


The question is how do you get a job with no experience. I say get some experience in anything. You say no wait for the right job.

But the ENTIRE point of this thread is advice for a guy who is in college and wondering whether or not he should stay there!?!

And you get a job without experience in a graduate programme, as I have already pointed out.