Getting Into the "Big Bad Industry"

GreeBo

Originally posted by muffen


Seriously, I don't think it matters if you have a degree or not.
<SNIP>
The degree only helps when you're trying to get the bottom job for the first time. That's today's reality, and that's it.

Err so which is it?
You need one or you dont, coz at the moment you are arguing both sides, a good way to not lose, but not a great way to win either. :rolleyes:

scojones

Originally posted by redoxan
Thats using statistics to prove a point, and badly too.
Trying to say that because a couple of non-college people have done well means that these sort of people are "more respected" is just idiotic.

True, Typedef listed a 'couple' of non-college people who have done well - that we all know. In fairness you hardly expected him to list all of the people who have done well in I.T without going to college? He is one of them, another friend of mine is another. Said friend doesn't even have a leaving cert and he's in a 35K per year job in I.T and he never went to college either. I'm sure there's lots of people on here on similar boats. I myself am a college student, in third year, and i plan on going as far as my master's / phd, because tbh, a degree isn't worth jacksh!t these days, they've lowered the standard of the degree's in this college, and in others, by lowering the % needed to get in to do your degree to 50%. And also sometimes they go on class averages here, and the class average of my class is 40ish. So having a degree isn't anything special.

muffen

Originally posted by redoxan
Err so which is it?
You need one or you dont, coz at the moment you are arguing both sides, a good way to not lose, but not a great way to win either. :rolleyes:

It helps to have a degree to get the first job, after that we're all the same. That's what I meant to say

GreeBo

Which is what I have been trying to say since post 1!!!

<runs away holding head, screaming>

Typedef

A degree will help, but, experience counts more, certainly.

I intend to at least try to do a degree while working as a Software Developer by day, but, not because a degree is required for my chosen profession, but, because the sorts of things I'm interested in, in computers, you rarely get much contact with in the 'real-world', theoretical stuff, and in college you get taught alot of this stuff which is, in reality superflous to the real-world of IT, but, is fun to code/learn/think about all the same. It's not like you couldn't learn it on your own, but, it's much easier, when there is a line drawn in the sand, from which to work from, no?

Sure there are alot of 'programmers' who 'specialise' in writing very, very bad VB, but, that's hardly limited to the self-taughters who smoke dope professionally, I have met quite a few graduates->programmers, who shy away from 'difficult' IT tasks, which always leaves me wondering, what exactly, said people are doing, being programmers/techies/internet wierdos. Again, that's hardly limited to graduates either, quite a few self-taughters are muppets too, but, I'd say that generally, if you meet a guy who is competing with graduates, without a degree, it's probably not because he is afraid of getting very,very technical, maybe I'm wrong, but, if you have to compete with guys who have more bits of paper then you, it helps not to be a technically impoverished muppet, no?

On topic : My point would be that, everybody has to start on the bottom rung... absolutely 'everybody' and frequently, that's what keeps graduates out of jobs, is, the unwillingness to take, some job any job, and do your time as low man on the totem pole, perhaps then hopping to another one, when the time is right.


So get off your hippie-high-horse and read the threads first.

Nice turn of phrase, btw.

clearz

Hi
I am close to finnishing a degree in Information technology. I have been looking into doing a masters when I get my degree. I have become very interested in a course that DCU are offering. It is a MSc in Bioinformatics. http://www.computing.dcu.ie/prospective/postgraduate/bioinformatics This course appeals to me for two reasons

1) This sector is set to grow exponentially in the next ten years. If this is the case it would be good to get in there now so money can be made.

2) Working in this kind of job helping to design new cures and drugs for diseases would be extremely rewarding rather than designing device drivers or front ends to databases.

Does anyone currently work in this area or are currently doing that course. I would be interested in hearing what it is like.

Regards,
John.

Hobbes

Originally posted by redoxan
ok, but say, just for example:rolleyes: , someone came to you and asked "should I stay ain college and get a degree or just go out and try get a job now"
what would you say to them?

It would depend on a ton of factors. For example, how are they doing in college at the moment? Do they have the funds to continue? What is the job market like? What plans do they have after they leave in regards to this.

And loads of other questions.

Trojan

That "Ban this user!" link looks very tempting...

Muppetry removed - consider yourselves lucky it was me cleaning up, not Talliesin.

Hobbes

Slighty on or off topic (who knows)

http://education.independent.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=482943

halenger

Well recent figures, which I'd go look for except I've to study for more college exams, showed that there's going to be a shortage of IT people graduating over the next few years so job finding may be a little easier for those who have the knowledge and the grades.

BrianD3

Sorry this is OT, nothing to do with programming.

I have become very interested in a course that DCU are offering. It is a MSc in Bioinformatics.

Don't believe the hype about Biotech. Although it does seem like a very interesting area, job prospects are very poor right now and have been for many years. Biotechnology grads find it almost impossible to get jobs and the ones who are lucky enough to get a job usually end up in microbiology labs doing menial boring work for crap money.

If Biotechnology is bad then you can be assured that Bioinformatics is even worse due to it being more specialised. The working in a lab option wouldn't even be open to someone with IT + Bioinformatics qualifications (cause of too much of a slant towards IT)

As for the future, it may be the next big thing. Or it may be all overblown hype. Who knows. I would guess that there will be a small number of very interesting and well paid reserach jobs in Biotech in a few years. But they won't be in Ireland. Companies will use their research centres in the US to do the interesting stuff like discovering new treatments. People involved in this work will have PhDs and several years postdoc research experience. Then plants in Ireland will be used to produce these new treatments. The jobs in this country will be the far more menial production, QC/QA and process development type jobs.

That's my opinion anyway. I'm a (disgruntled) science grad so I do have some clue about what I'm talking about. My advice to you is try to talk to some Biotech grads and get a feel for the biotech area before you make the decision to do the MSc.

BrianD3

Kernel32

My advice is get your degree. I am a professional software developer with 8 years experience. I dropped out of my degree after a year, mainly due to financial problems, I did manage to get a RTC certificate in commerical computing by night classes though. I was also very lucky in landing an entry level software developer position, but I had to take a paycut from my full time job driving a forklift in a warehouse to get the job. Basically I was paid very very poorly. It took countless interviews to get that job. Even now I will be asked about my lack of a degree and I have to explain the situation as best I can.

I am also a self taught programmer, personally I think it made me a better programmer but I certainly don't think college taught programmers lack ability, I have met programmers who never even did computer science in collage and are excellent at their respective jobs.

A programmer and a software developer are two different things. A college grad is a programmer, they know how to write code, work with one or two other porgrammers maybe, they think in code and in technology, they think at the micro level. An experienced programmer becomes a software developer. They learn to work with other programmers, business users, managers etc. Experience teachs them to think in terms of patterns and not just lines of code, experience teachs them that the simplest solution is the best solution, they see the big picture, they can work at the macro and micro level.

One final point, college educated or not, self taught or not, experienced or not, always conduct yourself as a professional in this industry, by that I mean learn about software engineering, project management, keep up with the what is happening not just in technology but in practises and patterns, if you do that it will stand to you well and could take you far.

Gavin

Originally posted by Kernel32
A programmer and a software developer are two different things. A college grad is a programmer, they know how to write code, work with one or two other porgrammers maybe, they think in code and in technology, they think at the micro level. An experienced programmer becomes a software developer. They learn to work with other programmers, business users, managers etc. Experience teachs them to think in terms of patterns and not just lines of code, experience teachs them that the simplest solution is the best solution, they see the big picture, they can work at the macro and micro level.

I wouldn't fully agree with this point. College students, at least in my old course, were taught software patterns, metrics and plenty of teamwork. I'd argue that self-taught programmers, at least initially, would be the ones working on strictly code level. But yes, without a doubt, knowledge of patterns isn't much use without the experience to judge when to use them and how they apply in a given situation.

Gav

HaVoC

Thanks for all the feed back guys

This whole flame war about college VS self taught is abit funny
Imo its just generalisations/stereotypes of both that have been resented here
If a person has drive they will excel be it by hook or by crook college or teaching them self’s.

Heres my 2 cents:
In college you general do projects on years 2,3,4 each involving more and more design and analysis 2nd year ur given the spec analysis done for you and told to code and design it. in the 3rd year you do analysis and design ie my course ur given a 2 page spec and you go from there doing the following documentationDocumenattion

only 35% is for code. In 4th year you start at inception phase creating ur own project and documenting it from inception to implementation.

So…… I don’t know any self taught coders do they all this design and analysis or not ?? but a degree graduated should be capable of doing development or coding. But the reality is that graduates are green. What I’m trying to say is a graduate has knowledge to be developer coming out of college tho he still needed experience

Johnny Versace

Hey man,

I did computer science in college but dropped out as it was incredibly retarded (DIT).

Started working in QA (a great place to start) and then moved into development (Perl, PHP, BASH, C, C++, GTK) and then moved into contract work. Now I'm trying to leave the IT industry and move into teaching.

My advice for you: start in QA. You work directly with the developers and after a few months can start doing bug fixing.

Good luck!

GreeBo

I couldnt disagree more.

If you want to become a developer, you need to develop.

Personally I think getting a degree and then taking an entry-level position (graduate recruitment-drive) and working your way up from there is the way to go.

No company will expect you to be able to design and implement a project fresh from college, but learning to apply what you were taught and exposed to in college over the course of a year or two will quickly bring you up to this level.

A degree (in any subject) is used as proof that you can apply yourself to something for 3-4 years.
A degree in a related field adds the bonus of knowledge, perhaps so far unused knowledge, but its there nonetheless.

muffen

I agree with you redoxan ... dropping out of school to become QA in the hope of getting a dev position doesn't seem like the brightest idea... although it may work for some...

I dropped out of school, started in techsupport and then moved to dev... worked for me.. but this was before the IT crash (was in -99)... and even then I wouldn't really recommend that path... although... if you have alredy dropped out I'd suggest you get any job you can in a company that does dev... and then talk to the people in the company to try and get an actual devjob... if you are good, you will get it...

Hobbes

QE is a good place to start if you want to build up experience (but study development too).

Actually in the US development QE people are more in demand then developers and get a higher wage in some areas.

GreeBo

Originally posted by muffen
and then talk to the people in the company to try and get an actual devjob... if you are good, you will get it...

The problem I see with this is that the employer has to take a risk with you.
I mean an employeer will know what subjects a grad took and how they did in them. They will have a much better idea of how rounded a persons experience is.

If you take an someone who appears to be able to write code you are leaving yourself open to find that thats all they can do.

As an interviewer you only have a couple of hours to find out about a persons skills, you dont want to probe into every orifice to check that they are aware of what a DB is or what UML is for example.

Having sat on both sides of the table, and also being a software "writer" before getting my degree, I know what I am looking for.

muffen

The problem I see with this is that the employer has to take a risk with you.

Not really... or well... not any bigger risk than employing a graduate...

I think that it's easier for a company to employ someone who's already working for them but just in a different department, than it is to do a new hire from the outside...

Also, even if you did really well in school and you have top grades, it doesn't necessarily mean that you will be a good programmer. A good programmer needs to be able to solve problems they know nothing about, and this isn't always something you learn in school...

Note that I do not think that you shouldn't do a degree... I'm just saying that just because you did a degree it doesn't mean that you are a better programmer than someone who didn't (but I do believe it will be easier to get the first job with the degree).

Anyways, in the end, I got my job when IT people were in high demand.. I'm still working for the company where I started 5 years ago... so it may be different now...

Hobbes

Originally posted by redoxan
The problem I see with this is that the employer has to take a risk with you.
I mean an employeer will know what subjects a grad took and how they did in them. They will have a much better idea of how rounded a persons experience is.

I call BS on this one. Any halfway decent interviewer will question the person on the job and see if the skill is there. I have met grads with thier bits of paper who have absolutly no idea what do to and ones without who have (not to say that is the norm). But to just say "Hey he's a grad lets hire him" is bloody stupid IMHO.

If you take an someone who appears to be able to write code you are leaving yourself open to find that thats all they can do.

and that is prehaps all you need them for.

As an interviewer you only have a couple of hours to find out about a persons skills, you dont want to probe into every orifice to check that they are aware of what a DB is or what UML is for example.

Actually interviews I've been to with companies that have thier head together...

1. First pass on CV to see skills are listed.
2. Call for exam.
3. Call for Interview, normally HR person. Its normally a personality and general check of the person being hired.
4. Call for Technical interview. At this point they have weeded out the majority of applicants and at this point you are normally asked more technical questions about your area of expertise.

They may have callback interviews after that.

Any company that gives you the job based on you being a grad or not, or at the first interview (or without the exam) is probably just going to exploit the fuk out of you.

GreeBo

I call BS on this one.

YOu can call whatever you want.
I never said that a company would say
"Hey he's a grad lets hire him"
What I said was (and you can read it if you want, use that scroll bar thingy on your right) a potential employer has a better idea of how rounded an individuals knowledge is from the classes they took and the grades they got, rather than trying to figure it out during an interview process.

I have met grads with thier bits of paper who have absolutly no idea what do to and ones without who have (not to say that is the norm).

What an excellent example of why some people should not join a debating society.

Most companies who are not **** take people on for more than just "writing code". You might as well hire a Golem if thats all you want.

Any company that gives you the job based on you being a grad or not, or at the first interview (or without the exam) is probably just going to exploit the fuk out of you.

Thats a bunch of mouldy toss aswell.
I dont know where you work but you appear to either be exploited or exploit.

You spell out the interview process, Im not quite sure what your point is, and dont have any real desire to insert the missing words to turn it into English, so I will just move on :ninja:

Trojan

Originally posted by redoxan

What I said was (and you can read it if you want, use that scroll bar thingy on your right) a potential employer has a better idea of how rounded an individuals knowledge is from the classes they took and the grades they got, rather than trying to figure it out during an interview process.

Don't be patronising, it makes you look immature.

Originally posted by redoxan

Moron.

Don't be abusive it gets you banned.

No further warnings.

--

Guys keep it relatively on-topic pretty please.

--

My own company (large US systems company) hire engineers with degrees only. Doesn't matter the subject, it could be a Bachelor of Music for all they care, but you must have one. Don't fully agree with the logic, and I know they make exceptions in very rare cases (lots of experience, very good), but it's not unusual.

A degree does display qualities should as perseverence, ability to work under pressure, delivery and various other traits like "ability to putup with bullshit in order to get the job done". Regardless of subject.


Speaking of which, anyone with 6/7 years UNIX/C looking to work in desktop development (not KDE, the other one) PM me.

-

Al.

Trojan

Funny.... just about.

ixoy

Okely dokely then folks - what's the industry like now? Graduated a couple of years ago and - despite the very f*cking irritating reports from various bodies - there were no jobs. This "future shortage skills" doesn't seem to be backed up by anything - many IT companies are still in freezes and/or relocating.

Anyhow, I've been in the tech. writing field for a couple of years but my aim was always to get into programming. Is the field clearer? Are my two years in a slightl off-the-field area an asset or a deficit? It's backed up by a comp. sci. degree [Trinity] but I'm not sure what it's all like now

GreeBo

Originally posted by Typedef
/Prods newbie with stick......

Wow.
Thats just on a level that I cant compete with.
Next I will be getting abuse because my CPUs fan is SOoo last season.

Senior Software Engineer here.
What do you do, dodo?

Oh and thats "Fast-Newbie" to you :cool:

And Trojan, do your warnings only apply to Non-Mods in a Ban Utility_ type way or does Typedef get one aswell?:dunno:
If you read all of this thread you will see that I have been consistently ON-topic and tried to answer/help the guy who started it.:ninja:

Trojan

My warnings apply to all users who become abusive (as redoxan has done).

Believe me, I find reading Typies posts just as tiring as you, but he's not overstepping the line. Don't rise to his bait.

Originally posted by redoxan

If you read all of this thread you will see

I can't read all of this thread unfortunately, because I deleted half the crap you posted previously when I cleaned up the thread. You don't have the moral high-ground so don't bother trying to claim it.

Just like I've done again to try and keep this thread clean.

Originally posted by redoxan

that I have been consistently ON-topic and tried to answer/help the guy who started it.:ninja:

You have been fairly on-topic in the posts I haven't deleted I'll admit. I appreciate people who post helpful advice, and even those who take the conversation off-topic but on an interesting tangent. But please don't start being childish when people disagree with you - like Hobbes above, and in one of your posts on the first page. If you're an SSE then you don't need to prove it - rise above.

Now, it's Friday evening and time for pints. Have a good weekend guys.

Al.

GreeBo

Originally posted by Trojan
My warnings apply to all users who become abusive (as you have done).

Believe me, I find reading Typies posts just as tiring as you, but he's not overstepping the line. Don't rise to his bait.

Agreed.

Originally posted by Trojan

You have been fairly on-topic in the posts I haven't deleted I'll admit. I appreciate people who post helpful advice, and even those who take the conversation off-topic but on an interesting tangent. But please don't start being childish when people disagree with you - like Hobbes above, and in one of your posts on the first page. If you're an SSE then you don't need to prove it - rise above.

Also agreed, but when people make unhelpful, swathing generalities it tends to annoy me.
The guy is obviously looking for help career-wise so I think we should give accurate advice or none at all.

Apologies to anyone I (incorrectly) flambéd, to the rest of you, charcoal has many uses...:ninja:

dazberry

:rolleyes: Guess I better get my spoke in

redoxan

Most companies who are not **** take people on for more than just "writing code". You might as well hire a Golem if thats all you want.

LOL. Excluding IBM of course that suck up a quantity of 1.1 grads every year on 6 month contracts, assign them to an architect, and "speed program" (their term) the sh1t out of them.

Having sat on both sides of the table, and also being a software "writer" before getting my degree, I know what I am looking for.

Ok, this all started in relation to Havoc's? post. But can I just clarify beyond that, are you of the opinion that anyone who writes software without a qualification is a software writer, whereby anyone with a qualification (preferably a degree I assume) is at least a software programmer (or better)? Regardless of experience.

D.

Typedef

Originally posted by redoxan
Wow.
Thats just on a level that I cant compete with.
Next I will be getting abuse because my CPUs fan is SOoo last season.

Senior Software Engineer here.
What do you do, dodo?

And Trojan, do your warnings only apply to Non-Mods in a Ban Utility_ type way or does Typedef get one aswell?:dunno:
If you read all of this thread you will see that I have been consistently ON-topic and tried to answer/help the guy who started it.:ninja:

I'm sorry.

I find it quite difficult to take a person who uses smilies, even 'vaugely' seriously.

Especially when they start abusing the other internet folk in threads for the obscene crime of not sharing their 'jaundiced' views.


Also, every bloody newbie goes to the "You never mod mods", it's boring and not true, you'll find I 'never' get abusive with people, unless they seriously breach netiquette... like calling my uber-intelligent self a moron and even then, when you've been listening to self-important people fly off the handle on the internet for a few years... it's pretty damn hard to take 'anything' seriously.

Where was I?

Oh yes, I disagree with your view of what happens to newbie programmers, I'd say, by and large, they get shafted for monies, by virtue of the fact that the oh-so-fortitutious software-dev compines can.... becuase shock horror, just like every other business in the world software development companies are out to make money too.

/wipes brow from the swet of epiphany.

Yes a degree helps, but experience counts more, with a degree + experience you have better chances then with just experience, but, in almost 'all' cases, experienced candidates are much more desireable then simply qualified candidates.

This is why a newbie, fresh out of college, gets the Junior sysadmin post, while the guy who has been adminning Unix boxes for the last five years, gets to play games while his underling Junior sysadmin does the hard work.

Most of the programmers who I am personally acquainted with, don't have degrees. I'd never call into question their ability, commitment nor employability, some of these guys have 15 years and more of industry experience.

No company in it's right mind passes up an experienced candidate for a grad, by virtue of the fact someone is a grad.

Sure maybe you scraped your way through course(x), but, what does that count for in the real world, where writing the code puts the food on the table?