Why Do People Hate America

red vex

i dont hate americans but i do hate
1 American foreign policy
2 The blind belief by some americans that anything associated to the stars and stripes is infallable(sp?).
3 The two faced approach they have almost always taken to their responsibility to the international community.

Anybody see that program about sexual abstinance in texas? you dont have to be a palestinian suicide bomber to be a fanatic. nor do you have to grow up in the slums of rwanda to be easily misled.

Geromino

Originally posted by BattleBoar
LOL, I think you'll find a lot of Americans that don't like Texas!

Not to mention Kalifornia!

By the way, one must be careful in calling someone a yank in America. There are some groups (southerners to be precise) that take that word as an insult and deragatory. They prefer confederates or rebels. LOL

sovtek

Not that I'm an American apologist (being hard since I'm American) and people here that are familiar with my posts would know that I'm not....
I just have a few little nitpicks on the following.

Originally posted by Zaphod B
: Religious fundamentalism.

Yeesss, wellll Ummmmmmm yeah huh huh.....
But there is still the matter of abortion rights in Ireland (ok my currently un-elected president is doing his damndest to make that the case in America, and at the UN) and millions of my tax dollars aren't going toward defending pedafile priests.

: The sheer money-grabbing greed.

I don't deny that but....
The Irish insurance industry, pub industry, grocers, corner shops, auto industry, tradesmen, landlords, restaurants, doctors, dentists, pharmacists, off-license...etc...did I leave anything out?

: The insistence on reminding the people every day exactly how wonderful they are and what a great place they live in.

*cough*

: Texas, need I say more?

Hey, it ain't all bad... off the top of my head...Janis Joplin, Fred Cuney, Bill Hicks....
Me!

BTW The Bushes are from Connecticut not Texas and that ranch in Crawford was built as a campaign ploy in '99.

red vex

somebody on the radio was on about the "right tack/wrong track theory" and that 80% of americans believe bush is making progress. Do people see the US having a better image say 10 years down the road?

Geromino

Originally posted by red vex
Anybody see that program about sexual abstinance in texas? you dont have to be a palestinian suicide bomber to be a fanatic. nor do you have to grow up in the slums of rwanda to be easily misled.

In Asian cultures, abstinance is an integral part of life. Pre-marital sex is a foreign concept brought by an uncivilized society (thats western culture) to dominate their cultural and social context. For example, Chinese men hate western men for coming and "taking their women" (marriage and having pre-marital sex) and view such actions with the upmost contempt. Not exaclty fanaticsm is it. However, do not confuse some of their social/cultural personification as that being with Europe. For example, in Japan and Korea, you have public bath houses. But do not compare this with some nudist beach in Europe. If you take care to notice, each person, although naked, does not acknowledge any other presence around them. For example, in a male model was taking a bath next to a femal model (let's say, neither of them is married), you will not even see eye contact or even couriosity. They will pretend not to see each other, nor anyone else, when taking their "bath." It is quite a unique experience if one has the opportuinity. In contrast, Amsterdam has put a unique definition of "window shopping" in its red light district IMHO.

Personally, I was raised you do not have sex until you are married. When you are married, you only have sex with your wife, not your mistress, your ex-girlfriend, or your office worker. But that is part of my culture. It is not the same of a Palestian suicide bomber to blow himself and as many as others simply you are not one of them. That is ludicrous.

red vex

point taken but its nothing to do with what i was getting at. A friend i was watching it with me and he said "Its like the nurenburg rally". What im trying to say is that for a country that belives itself to be very open minded, they(generalizing a lot) tend to look at a lot of foriegn cultures with an enormous amount of undue critism.
There was a politcal blunders award show on during the week and they showed multiple clips of bushs mistakes. it was actually disturbing how little he knew about the world outside us borders.

leonotron

Originally posted by sparkite
i dont hate americans but when i see americans around ireland in the summer in an aran sweater tourist shop it just irritates me.i dont know why, it doesnt make sense and im wrong to be angry but hey,im just being honest.i do have a few american friends in college and get on well with them.i dont know what it is.

Why does it irratate you? Irish people are making good money off these suckers, especially the price they pay for these sweaters. Do all the irish goons who wear NY or NYPD tshirts irratate you?

Matt Simis

Well, one thing that irks me is that some high ranking Americans believe they should "own" and control space in general and certainly near-earth space.

I found this:
http://www.warpeace.org/Current/who.html , but there was also a thread here with more info. Ideas proposed were the building of weaponry to destroy non-US space craft and phrases like "former allies will just have to accept it", the idea that the US will grant "permission" to travel into space in the future.

Still, its reassuring that its not just "World" Domination that is on the minds of some in US Government.



Matt

Gillie

Hate the fact that they think they know what's best for the world!:mad:
The fact that they act on everyones behalf in the name of Peace/Anti-terrorism/Greed!

The Country and the ppl i'm sure are ok in General!
Just the Government!:mad:

Hobbes

Originally posted by sk_irl
that hate that originates from some muslim countries who quite rightly feel that their society is being westernised, whether or not you agree with their culture you cannot say that in many of these countries the ways of the western world are becoming the norm.

Watch 'A fish called Wanda' Where John Cleese is talking about Americans (near the end of the movie). Sums up what you said.

There a whole range of Muslim cultures who have democratic societies. What they don't like is another country fuk'ing with them.

I think we can all agree on that.

You want to know why they are annoyed?

Because the US preaches about fair play, high ideals to live to, human rights and other freedoms (seriously they are force fed this crap from baby school up) and then totally ignore what they preach, especially when it comes to the rest of the world (which it treats as second class humans, and should be thankful for it). The only difference now recently is they are a bit more relaxed about doing it to thier own population now.

As far as the Mars and space exploration, it is not a question of showing off, but a question of improving scientific achievements that humans tend to expand.

Sorry but the recent US announcement is only because China are making huge strides and are planning a heck of lot more vs the US while the US sits on its behind.

If you ever wondered how microwave dinners that established or concentrated drinks, one only has to look at the Apollo missions for that simple answer.

Geez I wouldn't brag about inventing the microwave dinner.. anyway I am pretty sure it wasn't invented by Nasa.

red vex

That whole space thing was about the DoD trying to arm the sapce station and the us partners threatened to withdraw from the project. Real bully boy tactics. what would it have achieved. Global security?

Geromino

Originally posted by red vex
point taken but its nothing to do with what i was getting at. A friend i was watching it with me and he said "Its like the nurenburg rally". What im trying to say is that for a country that belives itself to be very open minded, they(generalizing a lot) tend to look at a lot of foriegn cultures with an enormous amount of undue critism.
There was a politcal blunders award show on during the week and they showed multiple clips of bushs mistakes. it was actually disturbing how little he knew about the world outside us borders.

I think I have not seen the show in which you are referring to, so I cannot comment on the "Nurembury rally" remark. However, I could apply your analogy to practically every nation, to one degree or another, in the example you have just given.

Clod

I don't hate it, I like it.

Just remember you'd be speaking German if it wasn't for the Yanks.
And if the Islamic fundamentalists got their way you'd be speaking ..... whatever the f*ck language they use. Oh wait, you wouldn't, because they actually want to wipe out western civilization altogether. You have to look at the bigger picture. And I said "fundamentalists" because I know the majority of muslims don't share their views, so don't accuse me of racism.

I might also remind you of who got the job done in Kosovo. Right on Europe's doorstep and yet again the U.S. sorts it out. There was resistance to U.S. involvment in this crisis also.
As regards Iraq, people are too hasty in judging the U.S. Give it five years and see how it's doing then. It's not even a year since the war ended. And it has ended. It's just a bunch of former Baath party members and the Al-Quaeeda boys causing the trouble at present. That's to be expected. When WWII ended there was still resistance from some elements within Germany.

Matt Simis

Originally posted by Clod
I don't hate it, I like it.

Just remember you'd be speaking German if it wasn't for the Yanks.
And if the Islamic fundamentalists got their way you'd be speaking ..... whatever the f*ck language they use. Oh wait, you wouldn't, because they actually want to wipe out western civilization altogether. You have to look at the bigger picture. And I said "fundamentalists" because I know the majority of muslims don't share their views, so don't accuse me of racism.

I might also remind you of who got the job done in Kosovo. Right on Europe's doorstep and yet again the U.S. sorts it out. There was resistance to U.S. involvment in this crisis also.
As regards Iraq, people are too hasty in judging the U.S. Give it five years and see how it's doing then. It's not even a year since the war ended. And it has ended. It's just a bunch of former Baath party members and the Al-Quaeeda boys causing the trouble at present. That's to be expected. When WWII ended there was still resistance from some elements within Germany.

Pretty much everything there is a half truth or misleading, another reason people dislike the US (even if you arent American, you are spouting the same BS some of them do).

Bush said the "war" isnt over btw. Besides, the "war on terrorism" will never end.


Matt

uaobrien

Originally posted by Clod
I don't hate it, I like it.

Just remember you'd be speaking German if it wasn't for the Yanks.
And if the Islamic fundamentalists got their way you'd be speaking ..... whatever the f*ck language they use. Oh wait, you wouldn't, because they actually want to wipe out western civilization altogether. You have to look at the bigger picture. And I said "fundamentalists" because I know the majority of muslims don't share their views, so don't accuse me of racism.

I might also remind you of who got the job done in Kosovo. Right on Europe's doorstep and yet again the U.S. sorts it out. There was resistance to U.S. involvment in this crisis also.
As regards Iraq, people are too hasty in judging the U.S. Give it five years and see how it's doing then. It's not even a year since the war ended. And it has ended. It's just a bunch of former Baath party members and the Al-Quaeeda boys causing the trouble at present. That's to be expected. When WWII ended there was still resistance from some elements within Germany.

Okay, first of all I can't believe you took the time to write that and it not be a joke.

Second, no-one disputes the contribution the U.S. made to the world with their intervention in WWII. I have nothing but the utmost respect for the men who laid their lives on the line in that conflict.

And how can I accuse you of racism when you pointed out that you know the majority of Muslims aren't fundamentalists. Hmmm, oh right, because they speak the "whatever the f*ck language" that the fundamentalists use. Its called Arabic, French, Chinese, English, Spanish and a number of other languages that the population of the world speaks in various areas. Muslims aren't a subset, they're an integrated part of society, same as Christians, Jews, Buddhists etc. They're Americans, British, Irish, Turkish, Iranian, Chinese... and so on, you moron.

And last I checked, E.T.A. aren't predominantly Muslim, neither are F.A.R.C., U.D.A., U.F.F., F.P.M.R/D., E.Z.L.N., yet I don't see any mention of them on either your list of terrorists or Bush's.

As for Kosovo, last I checked the U.S. were in as part of a U.N. mission. And I suppose you would say there is a purely humanitarian reason to the U.S. building three bases in Kosovo. Nothing at all to do with the Stari Trg mining complex and it's huge veins of lead, zinc, cadmium, gold and silver. Or the lignite deposits, enough lignite for 1300 years. How about the 17 billion tons of coal reserves in Kosovo?

As for Iraq, sure let's give it 5 years. I'm sure after 5 years of ambushes and car bombs, you'll have proved your point at the cost of countless American and Iraqi lives. But by then your average Iraqi should be completely sick and tired of American "occupation" and will consider it an insult to his manhood and culture that Americans are still in his country, which is why he'll revolt, with a few thousand or so buddies. They may be sponsored by their "brothers" you know, the fundamentalists. And then how many Americans will die?

Oh hang on, I get it now, you're Donald Rumsfeld.

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by Geromino
Correction there buddy.

I hate that shít! Arrogance. That is all.

Clod

Originally posted by Matt Simis
Pretty much everything there is a half truth or misleading, another reason people dislike the US (even if you arent American, you are spouting the same BS some of them do).
Bush said the "war" isnt over btw. Besides, the "war on terrorism" will never end.

I meant the Iraq war, which that was obvious. By the way which statement was a half truth or misleading?
I'm Irish, BTW.

Originally posted by uaobrien
Okay, first of all I can't believe you took the time to write that and it not be a joke.

If you're looking for a joke look at the U.N. in times of crisis.

And how can I accuse you of racism when you pointed out that you know the majority of Muslims aren't fundamentalists. Hmmm, oh right, because they speak the "whatever the f*ck language" that the fundamentalists use. Its called Arabic, French, Chinese, English, Spanish and a number of other languages that the population of the world speaks in various areas. Muslims aren't a subset, they're an integrated part of society, same as Christians, Jews, Buddhists etc. They're Americans, British, Irish, Turkish, Iranian, Chinese... and so on, you moron.

Point taken. I'll rephrase that sentence to make it more palatble for you:
"And if the Islamic fundamentalists got their way you'd be speaking ..... Arabic, French, Chinese, English, Spanish and a number of other languages that the population of the world speaks in various areas." Happy now?

And last I checked, E.T.A. aren't predominantly Muslim, neither are F.A.R.C., U.D.A., U.F.F., F.P.M.R/D., E.Z.L.N., yet I don't see any mention of them on either your list of terrorists or Bush's.

What are you talking about, I didn't post a list of terrorists. I hate it when people put words in your mouth to fit their arguments.

As for Kosovo, last I checked the U.S. were in as part of a U.N. mission.

Yeah a U.N. that didn't want the U.S. to act. All the U.N. is good for is dialogue. When dialogue has failed, as it sometimes does, what do they do? Try more dialogue........ meanwhile thousands of civialians are killed or displaced(Kosovo). That's why rogue nations don't care about the U.N.

And I suppose you would say there is a purely humanitarian reason to the U.S. building three bases in Kosovo. Nothing at all to do with the Stari Trg mining complex and it's huge veins of lead, zinc, cadmium, gold and silver. Or the lignite deposits, enough lignite for 1300 years. How about the 17 billion tons of coal reserves in Kosovo?

Don't give me that crap about the U.S. only exercising it's power in the exploitiation of other nations. Have they used military force to take over those mines in Kosovo? No, so what the hell are you talking about.
If they cleaned up Somalia you'd accuse them of doing it for the sand.

As for Iraq, sure let's give it 5 years. I'm sure after 5 years of ambushes and car bombs, you'll have proved your point at the cost of countless American and Iraqi lives. But by then your average Iraqi should be completely sick and tired of American "occupation" and will consider it an insult to his manhood and culture that Americans are still in his country, which is why he'll revolt, with a few thousand or so buddies. They may be sponsored by their "brothers" you know, the fundamentalists. And then how many Americans will die?

The Americans plan to pull out in the Summer. Actually a bit too early for my liking, but Bush has an election to consider.

uaobrien

Originally posted by Clod
If you're looking for a joke look at the U.N. in times of crisis.

Last I checked our boys in the military went willingly to keep the peace in Kosovo. Maybe they're part of the joke too? Or is it only the American military who are good enough to police the world in your opinion?

Shame you don't tell that to the families of our military who died in service with the U.N., "I grieve for the loss of your son, but he was part of a joke and not the U.S. military which obviously saves the world every time it leaves home"

Point taken. I'll rephrase that sentence to make it more palatble for you:
"And if the Islamic fundamentalists got their way you'd be speaking ..... Arabic, French, Chinese, English, Spanish and a number of other languages that the population of the world speaks in various areas." Happy now?...

What are you talking about, I didn't post a list of terrorists. I hate it when people put words in your mouth to fit their arguments.

How about quit with your narrow point of view that the only terrorists worth worrying about are the terrorists the U.S. are worried about. And how about crediting the faith of Islam enough to realise that the "fundamentalists" are Muslim in name only. What about fundamentalist Christians or fundamentalist Jews. Not everything "fundamentalist" is synonymous with "terrorist". Your beloved hero, Georgey Boy classes himself as a "Fundamentalist Christian". I guess by your definition he must be a terrorist.

Yeah a U.N. that didn't want the U.S. to act. All the U.N. is good for is dialogue. When dialogue has failed, as it sometimes does, what do they do? Try more dialogue........ meanwhile thousands of civialians are killed or displaced(Kosovo). That's why rogue nations don't care about the U.N.

Well since your so fond of blazing a path of lead, what's stopping you from signing up and doing your part. Or maybe its good to talk about fighting terrorists in war zones as long as you can do from the comfort of your home.

Don't give me that crap about the U.S. only exercising it's power in the exploitiation of other nations. Have they used military force to take over those mines in Kosovo? No, so what the hell are you talking about.
If they cleaned up Somalia you'd accuse them of doing it for the sand.

Funny thing is, with no benefits to the U.S., they bailed out of Somalia after the slaughter of their elite (for whom I have the greatest respect). That was purely humanitarian, but didn't last when the U.S. body count rose.

The Americans plan to pull out in the Summer. Actually a bit too early for my liking, but Bush has an election to consider.

:rolleyes:

Do you even realize how you contradicted your last point. You say the U.S. are interested in humanitarian missions, then why pull out because of an election? Surely the safety of the Iraqi people and the world transcends political ambition and re-election?

My advice to you, is grow up, grab a weapon, go stand where they stand and have stood then come back and espouse your viewpoint. We'll respect it a lot more then.

uaobrien

Originally posted by Geromino
Not to mention Kalifornia!

By the way, one must be careful in calling someone a yank in America. There are some groups (southerners to be precise) that take that word as an insult and deragatory. They prefer confederates or rebels. LOL

Or Klansmen

Clod

How about quit with your narrow point of view that the only terrorists worth worrying about are the terrorists the U.S. are worried about. And how about crediting the faith of Islam enough to realise that the "fundamentalists" are Muslim in name only. What about fundamentalist Christians or fundamentalist Jews. Not everything "fundamentalist" is synonymous with "terrorist". Your beloved hero, Georgey Boy classes himself as a "Fundamentalist Christian". I guess by your definition he must be a terrorist.

I never gave a definition of a terrorist or said if someone is fundamentalist they're also a terrorist. There you go again, putting words in my mouth to fit your argument.
Stop it.

My advice to you, is grow up, grab a weapon, go stand where they stand and have stood then come back and espouse your viewpoint. We'll respect it a lot more then.

So I have to go to war to have a viewpoint? Tell me, what was the last war you participated in that makes your views so relevant?

And what's this we business? You only speak for yourself.

uaobrien

Originally posted by Clod
I never gave a definition of a terrorist or said if someone is fundamentalist they're also a terrorist. There you go again, putting words in my mouth to fit your argument.
Stop it.

So let me see if I have this straight... from your original post you said:

And if the Islamic fundamentalists got their way you'd be speaking ..... whatever the f*ck language they use. Oh wait, you wouldn't, because they actually want to wipe out western civilization altogether. You have to look at the bigger picture. And I said "fundamentalists" because I know the majority of muslims don't share their views, so don't accuse me of racism.

So I take it that you believe that this part:

Oh wait, you wouldn't, because they actually want to wipe out western civilization altogether.

is the plan of a given "Muslim" state or govt.? Because I don't know of any state which has openly declared this as their foreign policy. And then why did you distinguish the fact that:

You have to look at the bigger picture. And I said "fundamentalists" because I know the majority of muslims don't share their views...

surely if it's state-run, it doesn't really matter who supports it. You have an actual target (i.e. the govt./state espousing the dogma).

Seems to me you were talking about non-govt. organizations who want to eradicate the western civilization, vis a vis, terrorist organizations. By that very fact you gave a definition of a terrorist - Muslim, most likely fundamentalist. Your comment is both therefore a statement of what makes a terrorist, and one of racism at the same time.

A racist doesn't have to say "all muslims are terrorists" to be a racist, they can say it subtly too.

So I have to go to war to have a viewpoint? Tell me, what was the last war you participated in that makes your views so relevant?

No, you can have any viewpoint you like. However if you wish to have others (me namely - see below) respect that viewpoint, at least have some life experience notched up before typing your thoughts.

I lived in America, I'm married to an American, I have friends who are U.S. miltary in Iraq, luckily none dead yet. I worked for a U.S. military contractor and my colleagues were first generation Americans of Iranian, Saudi and Iraqi descent, all Muslim, most fundamentalist.

Although my Irish nationality precluded me from any security clearance, I have friends who work with N.S.A. and C.I.A. on behalf of the U.S. contractor I worked for. A good friend of mine is U.S. Air Force Intelligence. All of these have shared they're non-classified perspectives on Iraq, terrorism and Islam with me. Some I agree with, some I don't, however all of them I respect.

And what's this we business? You only speak for yourself.

It was the royal "we".

Hobbes

It is all about attitude as well.

Take WWII or the fall of Communism as good examples. The US goes on about how it was all them who did it. Totally oblivious to what is going on in the world.

Oh, and muslim extremists are terrorists only? Pay attention to the guys caught in Texas recently (by accident I might add). What they were planning would of made 9/11 look like a picnic.

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by Clod
I don't hate it, I like it.

Just remember you'd be speaking German if it wasn't for the Yanks.

Actually it would be Russian - most German resources were on the Eastern front.

As regards Iraq, people are too hasty in judging the U.S. Give it five years and see how it's doing then.

Ah the old stall for time tatic - not the first time it's been used , the best (and only reliable) predictior for the future is the past. A regieme that has been proven to lie in the past rarely becomes honest without external pressure or massive internal changes.

It's just a bunch of former Baath party members and the Al-Quaeeda boys causing the trouble at present. That's to be expected. When WWII ended there was still resistance from some elements within Germany.

Ah wonderin how long it would take to mention the werewolves. But aren't you forgetting about all the fundamentalists and the Kurda and sunnis etc. Point made on the news recently was that the attack on the Ukranians came in areas recently thought to be relatively "friendly".

The Beer Baron

We always had a latent hatred of Americanism; hyper-capitalism, arrogance, their loudness, their fatness, their ability to go to war and commit atrocities with one hand whilst preaching freedom from the pulpit, and then there's all the crap they put on our TV screens and in the movies, all this sentimental emotionally-diluted crap, we in Ireland, for example, see through this as a load of BS.

There's also the fact that they are the sole surviving super power, with the largest military, biggest industries and, if not strongest (I know jack sh1t about economics) then at the very least the most important currency. It owns a serious part of the world, but then again, could quite happily survive without it (well not the oil obviously). They can afford to be this way, they can afford to be isolationist. We, in Europe, realise we cannot stand up to them, we cannot challenge them, economically, politically or martially. It makes us bitter.

Pre Iraq, of course, America basically sunk to the level of the schoolyard by literally slagging off "Old Europe". They systematically pissed off every nation that challenged them. "Freedom Fries"- the very name makes me sick to my stomach. It's easy to hate France isn't it? Slag off the French, oooh and Ze Germans- whilst juvinile in the extreme it was possibly the most effective piece of political buck-passing I've ever seen. Now instead of just terrorists to contend with, America had the arrogant pompous windbags of "Old Europe" to contend with. Result? US invasion of Iraq and gassed-up pick-up trucks sporting "Fúck France!" bumper stickers.

Did any American even consider hating France before? Other than the latent differences- difference in language, in history...
If someone is your enemy you can use this to your advantage- and such a flamboyant nation as France...oh you can invoke all sorts of things- call them cowards based upon their WWII history, make out every Frenchman to be a tiny-minded Napoleon. And as for the Germans...heh! That's almost too easy. Personally the whole thing is no different to the plot of the movie Canadian Bacon, and had Bush, Cheney, et all wanted to, they could have picked on Canada in the same way, or Britain, or anyone else for that matter.

But here's the thing- Anti-Americanism is in vogue now- why? Why not during the Clinton years? Somalia anyone? Or the fact that Clinton basically left Iraq to rot, hung out to dry and flapping in the breeze, before Bushy Jr went in there.

Is our newfound (bubbling forth like a once-dormant volcano) hate of America based upon a hatred of Bush? We never seemed to care when his father went into Iraq. Clinton was loved by the Irish people and he was no angel (and no I'm not referring to the fact he liked the occasional BJ). And you wanna talk war mongers what about Reagan? Twice the warmonger GW was and then some.

So maybe we've finally woken up to US foreign policy and what it represents? Pfft- like we in Europe are any better. Like France hasn't any blood on its hands, like Germany, Italy, Britain, Spain...and hell let's say it- Ireland.

Perhaps it's jealousy? Plain and simple.
America has the Bombs, as Dennis Leary so brilliantly put it, and we don't. If you take bombs and guns as a phallic symbol then you can take Europe's position as penis envy.
America are the big dicks on the block and we feel comparitivly impotent. Personally I think that's partly the problem. We need American industry to survive- were American industry to leave this country and reloate Ireland would be ****ed. We know this, but can't do anything about it.
And whilst America swan around insulting us all and doing as they please we seeth with anger and jealously. I bet France wishes they had the balls to invade Iraq- and furthermore the resources to do so. Germany too, if Germany invaded Iraq the Germans people wouldn't seem to care so much as they did when the "Ammies" did. Damn Europe needs that oil as much as America does, probably more so, and as oil resources deplete and oil yields with them well...America is sitting on top of what is alleged to be the most oil-rich nation on earth and Europe have squat- well, that which they can pleed with America to supply them.


The above paragraph, mostly, deals with the government and corporate viewpoint. The outlook of those with Power, ecclipsed by American Power, but Power all the same. So how do you make the little people go along with you?

It's my opinion that we have been tainted with a counter-meme. The antidote to the "freedom fry" propaganda. Oh it's easy to attack America for imperialism, for exploitation of the poor, for the adoption of a Big Brother society, for lies, for atrocities, for bullying others, for being self-rightious, for trampling the delicate cultures of others, for streamrolling into countries that don't belong to them with Abrahms tanks, for the systematic Blitzkrieg from Bagdad to a spiderhole. America's big, in voice, in power, in money, in size, population and in balls.

Look around you- Europe isn't any better.
Now I'm about as anti-American as anybody else. But I'm sick of sitting in pubs whilst some Bud-swilling gimp in American designer clothes who likes American music and American TV none-the-less preeches at me about the war in Iraq. Open your eyes, Anti-Americanism is just a kneejerk reaction, it's Freedom Fries in reverse, it makes us hate them as they hate us- it's Cold War politics applied to Europe. It forces us to look outside our own nation and the rest of the EU to see the "enemy" across the Atlantic rather than seeing all that is evil about America is equally prevolant in our own society- and then some.

(hmm- that killed a 1/2 hour nicely- a few more of these and it'll be hometime)

Clod

God uabrien, it's like talking to a wall. I never gave my definition of a terrorist, implicitly or explicitly.

No, you can have any viewpoint you like. However if you wish to have others (me namely - see below) respect that viewpoint, at least have some life experience notched up before typing your thoughts.

First you put words in my mouth. Now you're acting like you know my life history.
How do you know what life experience I have?

I lived in America, I'm married to an American, I have friends who are U.S. miltary in Iraq, luckily none dead yet. I worked for a U.S. military contractor and my colleagues were first generation Americans of Iranian, Saudi and Iraqi descent, all Muslim, most fundamentalist.

Although my Irish nationality precluded me from any security clearance, I have friends who work with N.S.A. and C.I.A. on behalf of the U.S. contractor I worked for. A good friend of mine is U.S. Air Force Intelligence. All of these have shared they're non-classified perspectives on Iraq, terrorism and Islam with me. Some I agree with, some I don't, however all of them I respect.

Thanks for the life story.
Why do you respect their views and not mine?

Zaphod B

Originally posted by sovtek
But there is still the matter of abortion rights in Ireland (ok my currently un-elected president is doing his damndest to make that the case in America, and at the UN) and millions of my tax dollars aren't going toward defending pedafile priests.

I'm not Irish :eek: RE religion, I'm fortunate in that I don't really have it rammed down my throat since 1) A certain corpulent monarch got my nation condemned to burn in hell so he could have a new wife and a bit of cash, and 2) The Church of England is currently, in the words of Eddie Izzard, not so much a religion as a hobby. I'm an atheist heathen who will no doubt spend eternity in whichever hell happens to be the real one, and the lack of power in religion may be part of the reason why my culture is (as it's often pointed out) stagnant, but... put simply I don't have religion forced on me
For what it's worth I have issues with abortion rights (lack thereof) in Ireland, but again that wasn't the question

Originally posted by sovtek
I don't deny that but....
The Irish insurance industry, pub industry, grocers, corner shops, auto industry, tradesmen, landlords, restaurants, doctors, dentists, pharmacists, off-license...etc...did I leave anything out?

Nor can I deny any of that The same applies to all those things in my country, it's just it's less overt... hang on a second, I just argued that we're just as greedy but less obvious about it... now that I think about it maybe the US has the better deal, after all you KNOW you're going to be robbed

Originally posted by sovtek
Hey, it ain't all bad... off the top of my head...Janis Joplin, Fred Cuney, Bill Hicks....
Me!

Holy sh!t I forgot about Bill. TBH though I don't view Bill Hicks as a (former) resident of Texas or anywhere else, more of a messiah and the temporary physical manifestation of all that is good and honest in the world. As Mr Hicks himself would say, not the most popular theory

To be honest I don't even dislike Texas or the South, it's just a few particular aspects of the South (although no, I don't think the North is perfect).

---

I don't think it's especially en vogue to criticise the USA, in fact I consider that to be an utterly cretinous and condescending view that makes it nice and comfortable for supporters of US foreign policy to utterly discount the views of those who disagree with them - "Ah you don't count, you're just following the crowd, clearly unlike yourself I have the ability to think for myself".

Let's follow the penis envy theory for a minute too. Would I like to be more healthily endowed? Yes, but for practical reasons I'd like to be able to fit it in my pants and not have it falling out by my shoes and dragging on the floor. Sorry but I can quite happily say that I don't mind not having the biggest army in the world, and I don't mind not belonging to the most powerful nation in the world. Maybe the problem isn't that everyone wants to own this penis, but simply that it's several feet too big and therefore whatever it does - and however innocuously - it can't help causing a public disturbance and annoying people.

The Corinthian

Hate is probably the wrong term to use, of course. The events of the last year have actually been brewing for a while, ever since George Bush Senior coined the phrase “New World Order” with the end of the Cold War. US unilateralist and friction with it’s allies had been on the rise since then, over numerous issues, such as Kosovo and Galileo.

It was however, the bull in a china shop approach to diplomacy that lead to the invasion of Iraq that brought it to the boil. It would be delusional for even a supporter of the present US administration to claim that the diplomatic run up to the war was anything other than an unmitigated disaster, regardless of the rights and wrongs of the war itself.

As a result of this less than subtle diplomatic manuvering, the World, and in particular Europe, woke up the realization that their opinions were ultimately of no consequence to an apparent hyperpower that considered us either unnecessary or even irrelevant. We woke to find that we had abdicated our military and economic responsibilities to what is ultimately a foreign power, whether we like it or not - a democracy that we are disenfranchised from because we are not Americans, while simultaneously even lunatics that will freely argue that “USA owns the world, you should be happy we rent you the space you stand on” can hold a say in how her policies are shaped - and by extension our own. It’s a fairly undesirable position to find oneself in to be a citizen of a nation whose destiny and well-being is ultimately at the whim of a foreign power.

So a backlash was frankly inevitable. However, to call it hate would be inaccurate as it’s all probably a lot more to do with fear. The two are often confused.

DadaKopf

That "Why Do People Hate America?" is actually really good, once you get over the dodgy title!

There's a lot to get through in the book and it's a very nuanced argument that links the rise of US global hegemony implicitly with the rise of European global hegemony during the phase of colonialism from 1482 to the mid 19th century.

The point is, this reaction to the present global hegemon was the same reaction the European colonial powers experienced because both come from a common ancestry - the expansion of the global economic world system.

You can't talk about Middle East politics without referring to Western intervention from the 19th century onwards because of the depth of political, economic and social interference that was caused by the colonial powers between the 1800s and the 1950s and then the US, and the USSR from then on.

Why do people hate America? The book takes pains to make clear that the irony is that many people in the world love American culture, its status symbols, but despise its military power. Countries that have been on the receiving end of America's iron fist, and sometimes fluffy gloved fist, are deeply affected and hurt - socially uprooted - by persistent American neocolonial behaviour.

This is what people object to.

If you go read Osama bin Laden's declarations of war, his prime focus - his only focus, really - was to get US forces the hell outta Saudi Arabia, the Muslim world's holiest country.

Angry people in developing countries aren't mental. They're justifiably angry. They're angry for specific reasons. In the Middle East, Latin America, Asia and Africa.

Geromino

Originally posted by Hobbes
You want to know why they are annoyed?

Because the US preaches about fair play, high ideals to live to, human rights and other freedoms (seriously they are force fed this crap from baby school up) and then totally ignore what they preach, especially when it comes to the rest of the world (which it treats as second class humans, and should be thankful for it). The only difference now recently is they are a bit more relaxed about doing it to thier own population now.

More specifically, most ME countries if anybody including outside Arabs and Muslims are annoyed about undue influence. However, most ME nations would use different methods in dealing with such annoyances. But to come to another point Hobbes, my mainland Chinese friends hold the same attitude about Europeans. It all has to do with the Boxer Rebellion, European colonization in the 19th and 20th centuries and having foreign gods and cultures invade their land.

Sorry but the recent US announcement is only because China are making huge strides and are planning a heck of lot more vs the US while the US sits on its behind.

I have no doubt that part of the reason for the decision had to do with China, but it has more to do with NASA's mission now and in the future as well as dealing with the Challenger and Columbia's tragedies. Ever since the Apollo mission, NASA has been at a crossroads with viability as a research agency in space and near space laboratories. And with the unfortunatel event of the Columbia tragedy last year, NASA has been questioned about its very existance. Some have argued for the elimination of an agency that produces little to no return and allow private companies to take over. Others have called for the renaming of NASA to reflect its current duties and still others have called for the President, or any future President, to reaffirm NASA's mission.

Geez I wouldn't brag about inventing the microwave dinner.. anyway I am pretty sure it wasn't invented by Nasa.

It has nothing to do with who invented the microwave oven or Tang. It has to do with the practicality of such products that were used in specific environments of NASA. If you look at the evolution of the food industry as a whole, you can see how NASA real life experiments were effective and others were not. Even look at the fuel cell technology. Most of that came from NASA (that is how the command module and other components operated in the vacuum of space. Now, the hottest renewable energy source is fuel cell technology as a prime candidate to replace the ocmbustable engine.

Geromino

Originally posted by uaobrien
And how can I accuse you of racism when you pointed out that you know the majority of Muslims aren't fundamentalists. Hmmm, oh right, because they speak the "whatever the f*ck language" that the fundamentalists use. Its called Arabic, French, Chinese, English, Spanish and a number of other languages that the population of the world speaks in various areas. Muslims aren't a subset, they're an integrated part of society, same as Christians, Jews, Buddhists etc. They're Americans, British, Irish, Turkish, Iranian, Chinese... and so on, you moron.

Ok, I use a different phrase. Please, allow me to define what I think Clod was referring to the definition of "racism" Racism can be defined as prejudice or discrimination based on the belief that race, nationaliy, religion, ethniticity, disability, and sexual preference is the primary factor determining human traits and abilities.

As for Kosovo, last I checked the U.S. were in as part of a U.N. mission. And I suppose you would say there is a purely humanitarian reason to the U.S. building three bases in Kosovo. Nothing at all to do with the Stari Trg mining complex and it's huge veins of lead, zinc, cadmium, gold and silver. Or the lignite deposits, enough lignite for 1300 years. How about the 17 billion tons of coal reserves in Kosovo?

The only thing I have to say is when a substantial military force is to be stationed abroad for an indefinite period of time, one has to build permanent shelter to feed, maintain the vehicles, operate a centralized command center and base of operations. Unless you have direct evidence that the military and political decision makers had distinct knowledge (I am not talking about a news paper article) that such an action was premeditated, then it is just coincidence.

As for Iraq, sure let's give it 5 years. I'm sure after 5 years of ambushes and car bombs, you'll have proved your point at the cost of countless American and Iraqi lives. But by then your average Iraqi should be completely sick and tired of American "occupation" and will consider it an insult to his manhood and culture that Americans are still in his country, which is why he'll revolt, with a few thousand or so buddies. They may be sponsored by their "brothers" you know, the fundamentalists. And then how many Americans will die?

And this will be the fact that the US may not be there next year or the year after that. Of course, you could find a very convienent excuse if the newly formed government decides to have a small presence in order to preserve the peace. But then again, maybe not.

To the Beer Baron,
I have to say that was an excellent piece of a post. My hat goes off to you. Corinthian, I believe that was the first honest post that I have ever seen from you IMHO. To Clod, word of caution, please do not try to overly generalize a historical and political perspective. Just my opinion though.