A rant about Knock Airport

ishmael whale

I know, why do I bother getting worked up about these things. I suppose I live in hope that some day the state will invest resources in things that we need rather than shovelling good money after bad. Then something happens like Knock Airport releasing results that purport to show they’ve proved everyone wrong and I have to react.

Knock Airport are presenting that their passenger numbers increased by 25 per cent to 250,000 in 2003 and that turnover also increased by 30 per cent to € 5.1 million. Their website is packed full of interesting facts, such as a Landsdowne Market Research report that Knock has more frequent flyers to the UK than either Dublin or Shannon and that after Dublin, Knock is the 2nd most popular airport for flights to the UK. How they achieve this when they carry less passengers in a year than Dublin does in a week is nothing short of a(nother) miracle.

Particularly thought provoking is their statement “Of those surveyed, 7 out of 10 stated that Knock International is a lot more convenient airport to use than either Shannon or Dublin.” Naturally they don’t say who was surveyed? Presumably they mean that 7 out of 10 of the 1.5% of people who use Knock rather than Shannon or Dublin find it more convenient.

They say that the research identifies 10 viable scheduled routes from Knock into the main cities in the United Kingdom. Does this mean that the state can now withdraw its subsidies?

It is very difficult to find real financial information on Knock Airport. But apparently they receive a subsidy of €540 per seat up to a maximum of 7,000 seats per year whether they are sold or not. That gives the airport a guaranteed annual income of €3.8m. I’ve asked them if this is included in their figure of €5.1m above. I have not yet received a reply. They’re a private company, why should they have to account for the bail out they get from the taxpayer.

They claim to have left their foggy boggy hill reputation behind them. Yet the unsurprising fact is that all these years on they still cannot function without heavy subsidisation. They are just shy of saying so.

Dasilva94

Don't worry, the Yanks will be able to use it as an airbase when Bertie finally gives up the pretence of neutrality.

ishmael whale

Excellent suggestion, with the possibility of downstream industries providing lapdancing clubs to military personnel.

Incidently, I have now got a response from Knock Airport (I had directed them to this thread, I wouldn't have it said I was talking about them behind their backs.)

Dear Mr Whale
I acknowledge receipt of your letter to <Knock Airport CEO - name removed by Ishmael Whale> which contains a number of inaccuracies.
Please be so kind as to forward your full postal address and we will be happy to respond to the issues which you raise.
Yours Sincerely,
<Name removed by Ishmael Whale>
Company Secretary


Dear <Name removed by Ishmael Whale>

Thank you for your response.

I am naturally concerned if my earlier message contains inaccuracies. Reviewing my message I have said:

Knock carries less passengers in a year than Dublin in a week.

Knock accounts for 1.5% of passengers using Dublin, Shannon and Knock

Knock receives a subsidy of €3.8m.

All of the other material comes from your website, so I assume you are not saying that information is inaccurate.

I have also asked the question if the figure of €5.1m which you have stated to be your income includes the subsidy of €3.8m.

All of this material comes from public sources. As this is all a matter of public record I cannot see why rectification of any errors requires my postal address. As you may be aware I have posted much the same material on a discussion board at boards.ie. If, for some reason I cannot fathom, you are unwilling to respond to my e mail you might post your response there.

The relevant URL is:
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?threadid=135115
Regards
Ishmael

monument

Originally posted by ishmael whale
Particularly thought provoking is their statement “Of those surveyed, 7 out of 10 stated that Knock International is a lot more convenient airport to use than either Shannon or Dublin.” Naturally they don’t say who was surveyed? Presumably they mean that 7 out of 10 of the 1.5% of people who use Knock rather than Shannon or Dublin find it more convenient.

Any fool could see that a small airport should be more convenient – I’m also presuming you’re taking into account that it would be more convenient for people in the west and north west to get to Knock Airport then a 3 1/2 hour trip to Dublin.

My last experience of Knock Airport – app. a 40min drive, dropped off at the door, 30sec walk to the shop for a paper and water, 30sec walk to the check-in line, a few minutes wait - checked in – through security, and about 10min waiting for the aeroplane. That flight and ALL flights to London I’ve been on from Knock were full.

If you want to talk about airports you’d want to remember that Shannon and Cork were - just last year - said to be unable to operate with out state funding.

ishmael whale

I agree, fools are very observant. They can generally see that its not so much a case of whether the 1.5% of people that use Knock rather than Dublin or Shannon find it more convenient, or even whether the flights from Knock to London are full. It’s the extent to which the airport needs to be subsidised to exist. I’d take a helicopter to work every morning if the state provided enough of a subsidy to make it happen.

Fools also feel that if Shannon and Cork have difficulties with annual passenger throughputs in the millions, Knock needs permanent life support. Fools take a certain satisfaction that studies conducted by the Western Development Commission seem to be close to recognising that the main impact of developing too many airports in the West has been to deny any one, say Shannon, necessary economies of scale.

Fools would wonder how the combined efforts of the wise managed to put a longer runway in Knock than in Cork, even though Cork has ten times the passenger numbers.

Fools would finally note that, despite the hopes that Knock would be a pole for development, such jobs as go West tend to concentrate in Galway.

But look at the fine suit the Emperor is wearing today.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
Fools would wonder how the combined efforts of the wise managed to put a longer runway in Knock than in Cork, even though Cork has ten times the passenger numbers.

Seems to me that when planning an airport, you build as long a runway as will fit in the available space (2340m TORA, in this case). But what do I know?

Maybe the planners should have foreseen the passenger numbers, and installed a 234m runway instead.

Maybe Knock airport hasn't reached its full potential yet.

ishmael whale

I take my hat off to you. Take-Off Run Available sounds so much better than length.

The runway at Knock Airport could certainly be extended quite a distance without meeting any man made obstacle. However this might alert us to the slight problem that there is no significant concentration of population within striking distance, which might explain why it accounts for such a tiny amount of national air traffic.

Maybe it hasn’t reached its full potential. More likely, this is as good as it gets.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
The runway at Knock Airport could certainly be extended quite a distance without meeting any man made obstacle.

No, it couldn't. Have you ever actually been there?

Sparks

Originally posted by ishmael whale
I take my hat off to you. Take-Off Run Available sounds so much better than length.

It doesn't sound better, it means something different. Your TORA can be totally different to the runway length. And it's the TORA that decides what aircraft can operate out of the airport, not the runway length.

However this might alert us to the slight problem that there is no significant concentration of population within striking distance, which might explain why it accounts for such a tiny amount of national air traffic.

And the reason for it's location might be due to land prices. For example, look at what's happening to Weston and Gorman Grange - shut down or being shut down because the land's value as housing estates was seen as far better by myoptically greedy people who didn't bother to note that housing estates need infrastructure and cities need airports and airfields.

Maybe it hasn’t reached its full potential. More likely, this is as good as it gets.

And maybe it was funded the same way UL was in the beginning.... which sadly seems to be how any project that doesn't line a TD's pocket gets funded in this country

ishmael whale

No, in common with the overwhelming bulk of Irish air travellers, I have never been in Knock Airport. That's its problem.

monument

Originally posted by ishmael whale
It’s the extent to which the airport needs to be subsidised to exist.

Would you be so kind to provide information on where the subsidised come from, the figures of such, and the extent which it does need to be subsidised?

Originally posted by ishmael whale
Fools take a certain satisfaction that studies conducted by the Western Development Commission seem to be close to recognising that the main impact of developing too many airports in the West

If they were government run – under some of what you have said under a more centralized approached – both Galway and Sligo airports would be contenders to shut down before Knock.

Originally posted by ishmael whale
Fools would wonder how the combined efforts of the wise managed to put a longer runway in Knock than in Cork, even though Cork has ten times the passenger numbers.

The long runway – which makes sense for its development - was determined by the Bishop who is to blame for creating Knock Airport.

Originally posted by ishmael whale
Fools would finally note that, despite the hopes that Knock would be a pole for development, such jobs as go West tend to concentrate in Galway.

Speculation, firstly - before Galway airport newly introduced more routes Knock could have attracted jobs to Galway, secondly how can you presume that a number of companies would have not been attracted to the area if there was no airport.

(Also, fools should avoid noting something when a government department is moving to the area of Knock airport.)

Originally posted by ishmael whale
But look at the fine suit the Emperor is wearing today.

Off topic, but good point, the Taoiseach, and others in power are spending obsessively on things like personal grooming, their own transport, and apparently chocolates, while in the mean time homelessness is a problem, the health service is in a mess, and the cost of construction of public transport spirals out of control.

One would advise that one should not use metaphors (or old sayings) where there’s a real case of the image which such should brings to mind.

ishmael whale

1. Information about the subsidy is covered if you read this thread from the start. Knock Airport gets a subsidy of €3.8m per annum. I have asked Knock Airport to state if their income figure of €5.1m includes this. They have refused to answer.

2. I have no problem with shutting down Galway and Sligo as a prelude to closing Knock.

3. I accept that if the existence of the airport makes no sense, arguing about the length of the runway is pointless.

4. I am not speculating that Western job creation is centred on Galway. It is a well accepted and documented fact. The Western Development Commission, who are on your side of the debate rather than mine, have drawn attention to this. (As an aside, the management of Knock Airport features some former WDC executives).

Sample quote from WDC Website:
“In 1999-2000, the Western Region got 2,807 (11.9 per cent) of the national increase of 22,908 assisted jobs. Of these jobs Galway accounted for 78.0 per cent of the increase and Clare a further 15 per cent. The remaining five western counties had a net gain of just 201 jobs. Counties Donegal, Leitrim and Roscommon actually had a net decline in agency assisted employment.”
This comes from:
http://www.wdc.ie/db-files/ExecSummaryforWeb.doc

You’ll find their general website at www.wdc.ie

The proposed government decentralisation is a separate matter on which I have commented at great length. (See the McGreedy’s Budget thread on this site.) My only thought to you is usually proponents of decentralisation assure us that modern technology makes location unimportant. Why do you therefore feel an airport has any bearing on the issue? Should Departments only be decentralised to towns with airports? Should we take it down a level of detail and only move Departments to airports that provide flights to major European centres?

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
I have no problem with shutting down Galway and Sligo as a prelude to closing Knock.

Give me a straight answer: do you believe that the entire population of Ireland should up sticks and move to either Dublin, or [Dublin, Cork and Limerick]?

ishmael whale

I have no opinion on where people might choose to live.

Do I take it that you have nothing to say regarding the unsuitability of Knock as a location for an airport?

Gillie

I would agree with your point about Jobs in Galway.
I live in Sligo so naturally I would rather see Sligo and Galways airports Develop rather than be shutdown.
I realise this is probably not feasable!
However. I currently can fly to Dublin for €30. It takes 45 mins to get there. Very handy! If they were to close Sligo Airport I would not travel to Knock to get to Dublin or to get to anywhere else for that matter! It would be kinda silly considering where I am.

Anywho. I think your spot on about the jobs in Galway! Gateway City Sligo my arse!

ishmael whale

Your realism in refreshing, and as a matter of interest the subsidy on the Dublin-Sligo route is €2.3 million per year, or €92 per passenger – seemingly a multiple of the fare.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
I have no opinion on where people might choose to live.

Apart from your evident opinion that if they choose to be so stupid as to live outside Dublin, they can damn well suffer the consequences?

Do I take it that you have nothing to say regarding the unsuitability of Knock as a location for an airport?

As someone who would have to choose between Dublin (150 miles away) and Shannon (125 miles) if Knock, Galway and Sligo airports were to be closed, I'm quite happy that there's an airport in Knock.

ishmael whale

People are free agents. They can decide for themselves what locations have to offer them, and if the costs outweigh the benefits.

You may well be glad there is an airport in Knock, as are approximately 1.5% of passengers who use Dublin, Shannon or Knock. The point is whether there is any point in subsidising this little used service.

If it was making some noticeable contribution to regional development there might be a case for a subsidy. However, the centre for regional development is elsewhere. If its simply drawing business away from Shannon that might help its viability, there’s a case for removing the subsidy. Your flat assertion that you personally find the airport conveniently does not address these matters.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
People are free agents. They can decide for themselves what locations have to offer them, and if the costs outweigh the benefits.

I sincerely hope you have no intention of ever running for election on that manifesto.

What's your agenda? Why is "regional development" as an abstract concept more important to you than the actual development of actual regions?

ishmael whale

I cannot see the trouble with a manifesto built on the premise that people are free agents.

What I am interested in is real development. In theory Knock Airport is an example of the ‘infrastructure first’ approach to development i.e. build an airport where its not needed and availability of the service will stimulate its own demand. In practice Knock Airport retards development by misapplying resources that could be used elsewhere to better effect and denying other locations in the West the possibility of achieving economies of scale. Its one of the nails that the Western development platform is driving into its own coffin.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
I cannot see the trouble with a manifesto built on the premise that people are free agents.

That much, at least, is obvious.

What I am interested in is real development. In theory Knock Airport is an example of the ‘infrastructure first’ approach to development i.e. build an airport where its not needed and availability of the service will stimulate its own demand.

As opposed to that beacon of sustainable 'infrastructure last (if ever)' development, West Dublin?

In practice Knock Airport retards development by misapplying resources that could be used elsewhere to better effect and denying other locations in the West the possibility of achieving economies of scale. Its one of the nails that the Western development platform is driving into its own coffin.

But that's exactly the point you're missing: Mayo is a region too, you know.

Do you want to be the one to tell the people of Belmullet and Inishowen that starving them of investment is good for "the regions" - and that all they have to do is weigh up the costs and benefits, and move to Dublin or Limerick?

ishmael whale

I am relieved that you are not advancing arguments against the proposition that people should be free to choose where they live. Presumably we can now let that matter rest.

I’m not clear what point you are trying to make about West Dublin. However, the growth of Dublin in the face of an infrastructure deficit does show up the fallacy that infrastructure is something that creates its own demand, rather than something that needs to be put where growth is taking place.

Asserting that Mayo is a region adds nothing to the debate. Are you trying to say that every county should have a subsidised airport? Even Western development activists acknowledge that the West already has too many airports.

monument

Originally posted by ishmael whale
3. I accept that if the existence of the airport makes no sense, arguing about the length of the runway is pointless.

Given that, you should also accept that arguing about a subsidised airport is pointless when money is spent on [EDIT - some how this next bit was left out...] less needed things.

Also, you misread what I said about jobs going to Galway, I said “before Galway airport newly introduced more routes, Knock could have attracted jobs to Galway”, which if was true would mean that KA did attract jobs to Galway as well as closer areas, which would at least partly rubbish your argument that “Fools would finally note that, despite the hopes that Knock would be a pole for development, such jobs as go West tend to concentrate in Galway”.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by ishmael whale
I am relieved that you are not advancing arguments against the proposition that people should be free to choose where they live. Presumably we can now let that matter rest.

I never expressed a problem with that proposition, and I find your disingenuity tiresome, to be honest. You said:

People are free agents. They can decide for themselves what locations have to offer them, and if the costs outweigh the benefits.

This sounds to me like a charter for enforced migration, especially coupled with your expressed desire to focus investment on at most three places in the country.

I’m not clear what point you are trying to make about West Dublin. However, the growth of Dublin in the face of an infrastructure deficit does show up the fallacy that infrastructure is something that creates its own demand, rather than something that needs to be put where growth is taking place.

No, it doesn't, and it's illogical to argue that it does. Growth in the absence of infrastructure does not prove that infrastructure can not promote growth.

You tried that kind of asswise logic in the McGreedy thread as well, and bonkey caught you out.

Asserting that Mayo is a region adds nothing to the debate. Are you trying to say that every county should have a subsidised airport? Even Western development activists acknowledge that the West already has too many airports.

I'm coming back to the point I made in the other thread: people live here. Real people, with lives and families. You can discuss macroeconomics until we all die of boredom, but the fact remains that it's not realistic to expect us all to move to Dublin, and it's callous to suggest that having chosen to remain out here we'll just have to suffer the consequences of that choice.

ishmael whale

Monument suggests that arguing against money being wasted on Knock is pointless when money is spent on even more wastful things. All I can say is I am against waste everywhere, but the case in point is Knock Airport.

Your statement about Knock contributing to Galway development is pure wishful thinking. If Knock is responsible for development in Galway can you explain why the development goes to Galway and then Clare rather than Galway and then Mayo?

Oscarbravo deduces that my statement that people are free agents and can assess the costs and benefits to themselves of different locations means enforced migration. This is patently untrue.

I'm still not clear what you were trying to say about West Dublin. We seem to agree that it shows that growth occurs in the absence of infrastructure. In an abstract theoretical sense you are right to say that this in itself does not prove that infrastructure can not promote growth. But, at the same time, it brings no comfort to Western development activists trying to contend that infrastructure is a panacea. Clearly the engine for growth, or at least the engine for growth in West Dublin, is to be found elsewhere.

Of course we also have the concrete case of Knock Airport to show that, in the absense of growth, unneeded infrastructure does not create its own demand.

Reflect again on what I'm saying. There is simply no point in putting an airport in Knock because there isn't enough demand for it. Blindly chucking resources into a no hope development does nothing,anymore than chucking a phrase like 'the real people of Mayo' into a sentence makes a case for Knock Airport. For what its worth my motivation is knowing that in Mayo and elsewhere 'real people' as you insist on calling them (lets hear it for unreal people, they're so entertaining) have real needs that are not being met while money is wasted on Knock Airport.

As I understand it regional development activists are trying to avoid a situation where everyone moves to Dublin. But if the current approach to regional development continues that's what will happen because whatever hope there is of achieving some other outcome will have been squandered .

Victor

Originally posted by oscarBravo
Mayo is a region too, you know.

County, not a region as such. However it has to be said that Knock Airport is in the wrong location - fair enough if they built it between say Castlebar and Ballina / Killalla or at the junction of the N5 & N17 but the didn't, they built it a couple of miles down the road from a small village with a big church. Knock Airport can't attract business, because too few people live near it.

Blackjack

Ismael Whale - how many Airports in Ireland have you actually used, apart from Dublin?.

ishmael whale

Blackjack

What did you have for breakfast this morning ?

Of course a valid question is what proportion of air traffic uses our various airports. Taking such figures as are available on the internet, Dublin seems to account for 75% of all Republic of Ireland air passengers. Shannon and Cork each get about 10%. Waterford, Knock, Kerry, Galway, Sligo and Donegal collectively account for the remainder.

Let me say this is culled from internet press reports. If someone knows a site with stats on the regional airports I'm genuinely interested. IAA seem to publish stats for the Aer Rianta Airports only for some reason.

As we know from the start of this thread, Knock Airport don't want to answer questions. But from browsing press reports I think I know why they claim 'inaccuracies' in my opening statement. From what I can gather their subsidy is probably shared with the airline operating the Dublin-Knock route. I say probably because I cannot find a clear statement of the position, other than a subsidy of 3.8 million is paid, and as we know the Airport themselves are unwilling to state what portion of their income is provided by the taxpayer.

Sparks

Originally posted by ishmael whale
[Of course a valid question is what proportion of air traffic uses our various airports. Taking such figures as are available on the internet, Dublin seems to account for 75% of all Republic of Ireland air passengers. Shannon and Cork each get about 10%. Waterford, Knock, Kerry, Galway, Sligo and Donegal collectively account for the remainder.

Okay, now compare that with the population in the catchment areas of each airport. It's not that Knock is run badly, it's that it services a smaller population. And for infrastructure, that's acceptable - in fact, mandatory, because to ostracise people on the basis of where they live is unacceptable.

Blackjack

What did you have for breakfast this morning ?

Sparks - I reckon I am entitled to ask the question, as your next question may suggest -

And for infrastructure, that's acceptable - in fact, mandatory, because to ostracise people on the basis of where they live is unacceptable.

This was pretty much the point I was getting to - just because someone (in this case Ismael Whale) does not actually have a use for this particular airport, does not mean that the others have not.
Whether it is subsidised or not, it does not seem to have been mentioned that the development of regional airports is an ongoing issue.
I have had the luxury of using several regional air routes, which while rhe subsidising of these routes may not be the idealogical use of Tax money in certain peoples opinion, are a lifeline for certain regions for investment.
Indeed, were it not for these regional Airports, I would not have had a reason to visit, simply because the local Infrastructure would not have allowed me to, in order for me to effectively do what I needed to do.

I have in the not too recent past have been waiting around the regional Airport in Donegal (sorry, can't remember the precise name - Corrafinn I think) while a Danish Private jet was waiting, along with providing a facility for Air-sea rescue corp to land and do whatever it needed to do. Now, while this may seem a little trivial to certain residents of the East coast, the trip via road or Public Transport to that area of Donegal to do any business,would be enough of an incentive to go elsewhere. The ability to provide an Air-sea rescue landing point is an invaluable asset in a coastal region.

Air Transport is fast becoming the preferred method of transport of the masses - Aer Arann are currently offering daily services from Edinburgh to both Cork and Galway - could anyone have imagined this scenario 5 or 10 years ago?.
In march of 2004, there will be a regular service from Glasgow to Knock. The Birmingham to Knock route is fairly young but a developing route all the same.
To rule out the viability of an airport simply because a person does not have a use for it is not a good enough reason.
While I don't have a use for the M50 - that does not create an argument for me to have it closed. Not the same point, I will agree, but along the same lines.

Air travel since the events of 9/11 changed for the better to benefit the consumer - this is not a bad thing. The fact that we are quite fortunate to be in a situation where we have regional airports to serve the regions is not a bad thing.

I am sure that the Irish Government spend 3.8 Million on many worse causes each year - to spend it on an area that badly needs the Developmental funds is hardly an issue to get worked up about.

monument

Originally posted by Victor
County, not a region as such. However it has to be said that Knock Airport is in the wrong location - fair enough if they built it between say Castlebar and Ballina / Killalla or at the junction of the N5 & N17 but the didn't, they built it a couple of miles down the road from a small village with a big church. Knock Airport can't attract business, because too few people live near it.

Unlike what a lot of people think, Knock is not the closest town to KA, but Charlestown is (about 10min away).

Charlestown is located right on the Mayo/Sligo border, is near to the Mayo/Roscommon border, AND is also at the junction of the N5 & N17.

Placing the airport in a central location to Ballina, Castlebar, Galway, Roscommon/Boyle, Galway, and Sligo (and also close to Knock), would probably be the thinking of both the Church and the Government.

However, if it was my decision I might agree with you and build it somewhere between Ballina and Castlebar – making it about 15min away from both towns – which could possible largely benefit both towns. But public transport links to the current location would be more ideal.