Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
A rant about Knock Airport
Options
Comments
-
Sparks - apologies dude - post was directed as Ismael Whale - not yourself - a case of mistaken identity on my part (sorry - it's late on a Friday evening).
Ismael - you have not actually answered as to how many Airports you have used in this country. Question still stands.
If you have such a problem with Knock Airport, give them your Home address, and let them respond. It may shock you to believe that many a business use An Post as a means of communication.
In my own opinion, there are worse things that 3.8 million are spent on each year, other than sustaining a regional Airport that happens to be showing a growth in Passenger numbers.0 -
Right enough of this.
You want to take away the one piece of significant infrastructure that exists in the West of Ireland?
€3.8 million is not a lot when one compares it to the wasteage of money in other areas. This is where we get it wrong in Ireland. In Europe, your argument wouldnt cut it - national infrastructure by its very nature is never a profitable thing - but its the indirect & spin off benefits of such infrastructure that make it worth the effort.
I cannot accept your argument that an infrastructure first approach is the wrong way to go - ffs, surely we should all know that its the only way to go. You support your argument by suggesting dublin has grown despite the lack of infrastructure....well sure its grown - and look at it! Its a sprawling unplanned mess...and where else would the development have taken place in Ireland seeing as there may have been insufficient infrastructure in Dublin, there was none whatsoever in the rest of the country!
According to your argument, there would never be any infrastructure in the west of ireland because it would be pointless to put it there! What are we - one big national park.
Clearly, you have no idea of the background to the development of Knock Airport, the struggle to get it established - mainly due to one mans vision (you know, V-I-S-I-O-N...something we have very little of in this country!). Yes the location could be better but on the plus side, its initial establishment was relatively inexpensive primarily because of its location. The 'problem' with Knock is that it needs a link up with the rest of the required infrastucture ie. road infrastructure
I can only assume that from this point onwards, we as a country will have the good sense to continue to invest heavily in road infrastructure - because if the proper roads were in place (Galway -> Sligo), Knock would be so much more accessible from the main population centre in the West of Ireland - Galway. Someone can correct me if i'm wrong but Galway Airport cannot be developed any further cos the runways too short and its not possible to extend.. - no problem - keep the focus on knock instead and build the infrastructure that links galway - sligo and as a spin off of this, the airport will be well postioned to serve the wests main population centre and the growing smaller centres ie. castlebar, sligo, ballina, etc.
Furthermore, you've heard of West=on=track i take it? Thats right, rail infrastructure - which is already there and can be made operational for the equivalent cost of a small segment of LUAS track! Again, potential to link it up to Knock.
Course, if you have your way, then we will just have unserviced wilderness. :rolleyes:
Finally, to pull the plug would have a much bigger impact on this part of ireland than you would expect (and i have a sense that theres no way you could appreciate this - seeing as you have no affinity with the region). It represents a rare achievement for the people of Mayo and the West of Ireland generally. Brought into existance at a time when the economic landscape in this country was far from what it is now and despite the lack of support from a government who didnt want to know...
but you wouldnt know anything about that, would you...:dunno:
ps:
Cant people see that a more balanced spend on infrastructure and development would not just benefit the regions, ffs, it would be better for Dublin too - you yourself refered to the development of dublin despite the fact that it cant cope with the rate and intensity of development that is occuring - resulting in a sprawling mess of a city, diluting the quality of living and forcing the cost of living through the roof.0 -
is mayo in Ireland
???? 0 -
There's really nowhere to put an international airport between Ballina and Castlebar. Besides, it's not that big a deal: I once got to the airport (from Ballina) in about 35 minutes when I was in a hurry. As monument pointed out, it is at the junction of the N5 and N17 - ideally located for a wide catchment area. The N17 is already up to scratch from south of Claremorris to Charlestown - if we could get something done with the N5, we'd really be getting places.Originally posted by monument
However, if it was my decision I might agree with you and build it somewhere between Ballina and Castlebar – making it about 15min away from both towns – which could possible largely benefit both towns. But public transport links to the current location would be more ideal.0 -
A lot of contributions have come in since my last visit. I'm not going to name each individually because my response is already too long. I'll just deal with the points and if someone feels some point dear to their heart is missed let me know.
It not a question of ostracising people on the basis of where they live. It a question of where best to place an airport, and of how many airports are optimal. As I have noted above, but no-one seems to have picked up on, Western development activists recognise that the West has too many airports. Supporters of the different locations are keenly aware that development of any one will take business from the other. The current situation is a mess going nowhere.
It is simply untrue to say I am arguing against Knock Airport because I have no personal need for it. My argument is based on the lack of demand for this service, based on the information I have presented. I have clearly stated that Knock attracts a tiny portion of air passengers. However others have argued that Knock is justified purely because its convenient for them as individuals, without any attempt to present a case that its a good idea for people generally.
I question that regional airports are a lifeline for investment. As I have already said, Knock Airport has not shown any sign of acting as a pole for growth. Provision of Air-Sea Rescue is, of course, a different issue not to be confused with the feasibility of regional airports. I might suggest that bringing it in here is a little mischevous, as if I'm sitting snugly by the fireside while people drown of the West coast. Its a different service and a different issue.
I have already dealt with the question that Government may waste more money on other issues. I'm against waste. The case in point is Knock Airport. To show my commitment to transparency, unlike Knock Aiport, I'll tell you how many airports I've used when Blackjack tells us his favourite breakfast.
Its just plain silly to refer to Knock Airport as the one piece of significant infrastructure that exists in the West of Ireland when Shannon carries ten times as many passengers.
I have no problem with infrastructure being put in first in anticipation of development, but consider if you subscribe to this approach you are saying that the infrastructure should have been put into Dublin, where it would have been utilised, and not the West where it is still underutilised. I'm not arguing that we should wait until there's an unplanned mess before deciding where to put infrastructure. I'm pointing out that the Western development argument that infrastructure will create its own demand is a fallacy. To say there is no infrastructure outside Dublin is patently untrue. Knock Airport is a piece of infrastructure intended to stimulate growth that has failed to meet its objective.
According to my argument, there would be appropriate infrastructure in the west of ireland that would be used. For example, I dare say you could come up with a site for a toxic waste incinterator. Thats a piece of infrastructure where low population density is an advantage. (Uninvolved observers may wish to take time to sit back with the popcorn and watch the sparks fly over this suggestion.) But airports need a population to serve and Knock just hasn't enough to make a go of it. If you were starting with a clean sheet, where would you put an airport - Knock or Galway. Right, now lets clean the sheet. I'm sure any perceived limitations to Galway's development can be overcome if the will is there. Hong Kong used to an airport with some fairly strange limitations.
I well remember the hopes that accompanied the building of Knock Airport. There was talk of planeloads of pilgrims arriving, raising the shrine to the level of Lourdes (please don't pretend that there wasn't). It was a brave step for a hardworking cleric, and is part of Irish folklore, but it has failed. Keeping it open so that people can say "Wow, what a stroke." is hardly a convincing case. The detractors were right, and there's no point in throwing good money after bad.
I agree with heavy investment in road infrastructure, starting with linking the main centres of population. I disagree with diverting resources away from this to rail (or regional airports) other than for proven commuter routes - lets have one good national transport network before we try building a second. I am aware of west=on=track, and I am open to debating their ideas in a separate thread once this debate is complete. Incidently, unlike Knock Airport, the good people at west=on=track have no problem defending their views by e mail. I don't agree with them but I respect their willingness to engage. However I am most disappointed that a recent e mail I sent to the Western Development Commission, as I understand it a state body, was not even acknowledged. Knock Airport can at least say they are a private company, albeit in receipt of state funds, and so have no obligation to be publically accountable. The WDC cannot. Bear in mind that the state promote Ireland as an example of e-government, so contact by email should not be an issue.
Experience to date suggests that Knock Airport has done little to contribute to more balanced growth. Remember, we are not talking about some theoretical consideration here. The Airport exists, but the growth is happening in the East and such growth as is happening in the West is centred on Galway. Rather than defending it because its there, can I suggest you simply consider what I am saying. These
resources might be better used elsewhere, on infrastructure that is needed and that would be utilised.
Anyway, I've said enough for now. I'll let the discussion continue and rejoin it on Monday.0 -
Advertisement
-
Originally posted by ishmael whale
I disagree with diverting resources away from this to rail
OK, let’s stop there, by that statement you’re saying you know nothing about transport. (If you want it simply - you’re talking through you’re hole.)
If every one drove around in cars, from students going home at the weekend to people in Dublin, Galway, Cork etc.., the country would be in a bigger mess then it currently is.
If you want more… taken that Shannon is really in the south/west (or at best south/mid-west) it’s a bit of a flaw in your argument, the lack of demand and underutilised arguments are rubbished by user figures rising last year, the tiny portion argument is rubbished by the current size of the airport and the fact there is two other regional airports close by.
Also your main argument about the numbers as to what how much the airport is subsided is not based on facts, but a presumption made when they won’t reply to such by email.0 -
Shannon is as far from Knock as Dublin is. What can it possibly contribute to the development of the northwest?Originally posted by ishmael whale
Its just plain silly to refer to Knock Airport as the one piece of significant infrastructure that exists in the West of Ireland when Shannon carries ten times as many passengers.
Such as?These resources might be better used elsewhere, on infrastructure that is needed and that would be utilised.0 -
Monument says that by disagreeing with diverting resources away from road to rail I am talking through my hole. Then I'm in good company, as an analysis conducted to
inform the National Spatial Strategy cites a study that to be useful rail services need to be between very sizeable cities a good distance apart and that no suitable pairings exist in Ireland. In the view of this analysis even the Dublin-Cork and Dublin-Belfast pairings are not particularly suitable for rail lines as Cork is too small and Belfast too close with too little traffic. I'm therefore simply basing my case on reputable professional work that suggests that rail is not suited to Irish conditions. If this is talking out my hole, then you're, eh, talking out your hole.
Of course in addition to private cars, public transport in the form of buses are widely used. In fact while I haven't seen any recent statistics, I'm pretty confident that long distance buses carry far more passengers than rail. If someone wants to make an issue of this I can try to trace statistics.
Obviously you can define the West of Ireland on whatever basis you like. As we are discussing public policy I take it to mean areas within the remit of the Western Development Commission, which includes Clare and therefore Shannon.
The fact that Knock's passenger figures have increased from an insignificant figure to a larger insignificant figure does not take away from the fact that Knock has failed to become an engine for growth. The experiment has failed.
I don't follow what point Monument is trying to make by saying "the tiny portion argument is rubbished by the current size of the airport and the fact there is two other regional airports close by." There are about twenty million air passengers every year. Knock, and indeed all the combined regional airports, account for a very small portion of these.
It is a fact that a subsidy of 3.8m is paid, the only question is how much of this goes to the airline providing the Knock-Dublin service. In other regional airports the share seems to be fifty-fifty. From the start I have presented the information at my disposal and drawn attention to Knock Airport's unwillingness to comment and allowed people to draw their own conclusions. I take your raising this point at this late stage in the debate is cluctching at straws, a reflection of the fact that there is very little to say in favour of Knock.
Oscarbravo commented that in relation to one of my points that Shannon could not contribute to the development of the northwest. That may well be the case, but just to explain the point I was responding to was describing Knock as the only significant piece of infrastructure in the West - I have already pointed out that Clare is included in the remit of the WDC. As regards Knock's contribution to regional development I can only refer you (again) to the WDC analysis which shows that growth is centred on Galway. Shannon may not contribute to development in the northwest - but Knock hasn't exactly been a powerhouse either.
Finally he asks what alternative uses 3.8 million could be put to. Lots. My personal choice would be education, specifically development of laboratory facilities in schools. But really the answer is lots.0 -
@ishmael whale: where the hell do we start here.:pIt a question of where best to place an airport, and of how many airports are optimal.
Ok, i have no problem with this - we shouldnt have duplication but as my other points will prove, the selected airport for development should be Knock!
Yes, and what we need to do in Ireland and what we certainly dont do and have paid the price for is this...look ahead and see what demand will be in the future - not just the present. Our continental neighbours have the foresight to planMy argument is based on the lack of demand for this service, based on the information I have presented.
Monument and Oscar Bravo have already covered this one - Knock is in the West of Ireland; Shannon is in what is known as the Mid-West region;)Its just plain silly to refer to Knock Airport as the one piece of significant infrastructure that exists in the West of Ireland when Shannon carries ten times as many passengers.I'm not arguing that we should wait until there's an unplanned mess before deciding where to put infrastructure. I'm pointing out that the Western development argument that infrastructure will create its own demand is a fallacy.
Putting infrastructure in place takes time. In Ireland it takes time x2. Its a case of being proactive rather than reactive. By the way, we DID wait until there was an unplanned mess (and this is in no way just confined to Dublin either) before deciding where to put infrastructure in place. If all the economic conditions are right for development and inward investment, and you have a well serviced region in terms of infrastructure, i dont except for a moment that inward investment will not be more likely to find its way to such a region. Case in point, Ebays decision to locate in Dublin rather than Athlone..
hmm..now your just on a wind-up..the 'polluter pays' principle springs to mind - Dublin can burn its own toxins - when we create enough toxic waste, i'm sure this region will be ok with the idea of being responsible for its own waste..According to my argument, there would be appropriate infrastructure in the west of ireland that would be used. For example, I dare say you could come up with a site for a toxic waste incinterator.
Fact: Knock airport already exists so we're not starting from scratch here. Galways development could be overcome if you could throw enough money at it - the amount of cash you would need to throw at it to sort it out couldnt be justified imo. Knock airport has more than enough room for expansion if required. The fact is that an airport to serve this region doesnt need to be slapped on the outskirts of Galway to guarantee any kind of success. Case in Point: Frankfurt-Hahn airport, Germany: Despite the fact that it was just a disused american airbase a couple of years ago, the success of this airport has been phenomenal despite the fact that its an hour from frankfurt and in an area thats as rural as it gets in germany. This is successful despite the fact that it has no rail link - which the german authorities have of course planned for and will happen over the next few years.where would you put an airport - Knock or Galway. Right, now lets clean the sheet. I'm sure any perceived limitations to Galway's development can be overcome if the will is there. Hong Kong used to an airport with some fairly strange limitations.
The point is that with the proper infrastructure in place, Knock is well positioned to cover - not only Galway - but the rest of the region.I disagree with diverting resources away from this to rail (or regional airports) other than for proven commuter routes - lets have one good national transport network before we try building a second.
Did you read my post - we dont need to build it - its already there! Whats more, we do in fact have the money to carry out all of these infrastructural projects if it wasnt for the fact that we are haemorraging money in other areas for no good reason.Experience to date suggests that Knock Airport has done little to contribute to more balanced growth. Remember, we are not talking about some theoretical consideration here. The Airport exists, but the growth is happening in the East and such growth as is happening in the West is centred on Galway.
For the most part, Central Government pulls the strings on this, not the Knock Airport Management Staff..0 -
I was replying to the subsidy point because your main argument, and currently un-backed up.Originally posted by ishmael whale
Then I'm in good company, as an analysis conducted to
inform the National Spatial Strategy cites a study that to be useful rail services need to be between very sizeable cities a good distance apart and that no suitable pairings exist in Ireland.
National Spatial Strategy is a as the name suggests a strategy, which was complied by a government which is edging more right wing by the minute. It is not an independent report (– correct me if I’m wrong).Originally posted by ishmael whale
As regards Knock's contribution to regional development I can only refer you (again) to the WDC analysis which shows that growth is centred on Galway. Shannon may not contribute to development in the northwest - but Knock hasn't exactly been a powerhouse either.
As I have pointed out before – you can not presume that KA has not promoted development in Galway.
How can you presume that the current companies in Galway, and other areas around KA, would have not set up in the first place, or that it has not largely helped development of local businesses – it allows international business contacts to visit you and you to visit them or go to trade events – saving time and money.0 -
Advertisement
-
Much as I try to avoid the ‘line to line’ type of reply the same misunderstanding seem to be coming up again. Hopefully this makes my points clearer.
Eurorunner first
“look ahead and see what demand will be in the future - not just the present”
As I have said above, if we planned to put infrastructure where we expect demand will grow we would put it on the East coast. But Western development activists demand infrastructure on grounds that it will create its own demand – i.e. if we build an airport then companies will want to set up near it and create a demand for its service. This has not happened in the case of Knock Airport.
“Monument and Oscar Bravo have already covered this one - Knock is in the West of Ireland; Shannon is in what is known as the Mid-West region”
As I have already pointed out above, Clare is in the area in the Western Development Commission’s remit.
“Putting infrastructure in place takes time”
Knock opened in 1986 – heading on for twenty years ago. That’s long enough to say its going nowhere.
Also, in case there’s some misunderstanding, I agree that we let an unplanned mess emerge in the East before doing anything.
“If all the economic conditions are right …”
Exactly, there’s no point in putting inappropriate infrastructure into regions that do not satisfy all the economic conditions. This was ignored in the case of Knock, and its why it’s a failure. As an aside, Athlone was only one of the locations where the State tried to grant-aid Ebay out of Dublin. Sligo was another. Ebay’s decision to forego grant aid and locate in Dublin without state support included a need to be near to an airport – the few services that Knock and Sligo can support were not sufficient.
On toxic waste incineration
Toxic waste incineration is, on the face of it, something best done away from centres of population. Of course the polluter should pay – but the polluter can pay someone else to do the actual disposal. (I’m not claiming any expertise on toxic waste, but with its chemical industries is Cork not the centre for waste production rather than Dublin?)
“ Knock airport already exists so we're not starting from scratch here.”
I’m just to trying to stimulate a little lateral thinking, and open a doorway to seeing that Knock Airport is not such a great idea. I feel the example of Hahn, which I’m not claiming any special knowledge of, may be inappropriate. As you say “its an hour from frankfurt”, a major European financial centre of far more significance than Galway or, indeed, Dublin. You also describe it as “in an area thats as rural as it gets in germany”. I take it you are saying that there is a large local population to be served, unlike Knock.
On rail you said
“Did you read my post - we dont need to build it - its already there”
To which I can only respond did you read my post, where I have stated that I am aware of this campaign and have corresponded with them by e mail and would be willing to debate their ideas in a separate thread. Look at the length of my reply. We have to set some limits to the debate. I would also draw your attention to my previous reply to Monument’s points, where I draw attention to an assessment that rail is not suited to Irish conditions. (Which is, after all, why the line was closed.)
Your closing statement, that central government pulls the strings on locating industry, is with respect an attempt to deny reality. Significant effort is made to attract industry West. Knock Airport attempts to promote itself as does the region. But industry does not want to locate outside of major population centres because they need the security of knowing there’s a big pool of potential employees to draw on. Blaming ‘central government’ for this is hardly right. Proponents of Knock Airport saw it as the key to developing their area. They were wrong.
Monument wants some backup for the material regarding Knock’s subsidy. As I have said I have been open from the start about my material and about Knock’s unwillingness to comment. Quote attributed to Nicky Fewer, Chairman of the South East Regional Airport Company, in Waterford News and Star 20/12/02. “Galway, for example, receives €2,500 per day or €650,000 per year while Knock airport receives a subsidy of €540 per seat up to a maximum of 7,000 seats per year whether they are sold or not. That gives the airport a guaranteed annual income of €3.8m.” URL for this is:
http://archives.tcm.ie/waterfordnews/2002/12/20/story8863.asp
The report on rail I am referring to is the Review of Transport Infrastructure Investment Needs, done by DKM economic consultants. One slight typo on my behalf – it was done to inform the national rail strategy not the spatial strategy (although the spatial strategy also spawned an array of useful studies.) I would certainly not regard a study of this nature as political, whatever about the final strategy produced.
“As I have pointed out before – you can not presume that [Knock Airport] has not promoted development in Galway.”
Firstly, as I have said before and you have not answered, development has gone Galway first and Clare second rather than Galway first and Mayo second. If Knock was a pole for growth you would expect to see some evidence of this around it. The actual pattern suggests that Shannon with its two million passengers may contribute to Galway’s growth, rather than Knock with one tenth of that throughput.
I think, with respect, you are simply trying to justify Knock because its there without asking if its really any use.0 -
Re: Galway
Galway is as close to Shannon as it is to Knock. Any service Knock provides to Galway is marginal.0 -
Galway - Shannon 56 miles, Galway - Knock 58 miles, a whole two miles.
Any way, the Department of Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs are moving to the airport, so it's not really the best time for the state to remove any funding
0 -
Fine, but I take it you accept that its not sustainable to ascribe Galway's growth to Knock, when there's another airport with ten times the traffic much the same distance away.
As to the proposed move the Dept of Community etc Affairs, I can't see one government office as justifying its own airport and I think you know yourself that this line will fall apart under scrutiny. I would remind you that when you first mentioned the decentralisation earlier in this thread I said
"Usually proponents of decentralisation assure us that modern technology makes location unimportant. Why do you therefore feel an airport has any bearing on the issue? Should Departments only be decentralised to towns with airports? Should we take it down a level of detail and only move Departments to airports that provide flights to major European centres?"
You didn't engage on these questions, and clearly the proposed decentralisation has little impact on the case for Knock Airport. Like they say, the main effect of moving this office to Knock Airport is that Mayo will have a breeding pair of white elephants.0 -
"Provision of Air-Sea Rescue is, of course, a different issue not to be confused with the feasibility of regional airports. I might suggest that bringing it in here is a little mischevous, as if I'm sitting snugly by the fireside while people drown of the West coast. Its a different service and a different issue."
There was no mischievious intention - simply pointing out that these are facilities that are available for more that just Chartered or Scehduled flights. Different Service, same facilities.
"It is simply untrue to say I am arguing against Knock Airport because I have no personal need for it. My argument is based on the lack of demand for this service, based on the information I have presented. I have clearly stated that Knock attracts a tiny portion of air passengers.
250,000 Passengers is hardly showing of a lack of demand. You seem to be hung on the fact that Dublin attracts the vast majority of all Air passengers in to the country, as it would naturally being the capital. As regards Shannon attracting 2 million, how many of these are Stopovers, either to or from the US, and therefore are really a distortion of this number?. Were the stopover to cease, the numbers going through Shannon would fall dramatically.
Could I also point out that Cork and Shannon required subsidies to operate also?.
"However others have argued that Knock is justified purely because its convenient for them as individuals, without any attempt to present a case that its a good idea for people generally."
250,000 passenges seem to find it convenient, and would probably argue that it's a good idea.
"I have already dealt with the question that Government may waste more money on other issues. I'm against waste. The case in point is Knock Airport. To show my commitment to transparency, unlike Knock Aiport, I'll tell you how many airports I've used when Blackjack tells us his favourite breakfast."
The Management of Knock Airport have also shown their commitment to transparency, it seems, if you agree to give them your postal address. Their preferred method of communication versus yours is hardly a reason for them to shut the Airport. Why don't you give them your address if you really want the answers?. And do you honestly think they would post their reply here?.
Oh, and, Cucumber Sandwiches.
You do not appear to be willing to take into account the growth in use of Air traffic, nor do you appear to be taking into account the significant growth in passenger numbers into Knock Airport.
Consider that the following Airlines fly regular services between Knock and the UK:
Ryanair
BMI Regional and also BMIBaby (from March 2004)
British Airways
MyTravellite
Do you believe that these airlines (3 of them modelling themselves as "Low Fares") would be offering this service if it were not possible for them to make a Profit by doing so?.
As I mentioned before, Air Travel is fast becoming the preferred method of transport for the masses, largely thanks to Budget/Low cost airlines showing how it can be done. The fact that additional routes are continually being added to the Regional airports shows that there is a demand for regional Airports, not just for the larger ones such as Cork, Shannon or Dublin.0 -
Being well inland Knock has little Air-Sea Rescue purpose when facilities are existing at Donegal Airport, Finner Camp, Sligo Airport, Belmullet (refuelling station) and Galway Airport.Originally posted by Blackjack
"Provision of Air-Sea Rescue is, of course, a different issue not to be confused with the feasibility of regional airports. I might suggest that bringing it in here is a little mischevous, as if I'm sitting snugly by the fireside while people drown of the West coast. Its a different service and a different issue."0 -
Being well inland Knock has little Air-Sea Rescue purpose when facilities are existing at Donegal Airport, Finner Camp, Sligo Airport, Belmullet (refuelling station) and Galway Airport.
Case to where Air-Sea rescue was being referred to was in relation to Carrickfinn or Donegal Airport, being a regional Airport. Finner at one time had re-deployed it's air sea rescue Dauphin to Carrickfinn to to Damage to the facility at Finner.
Evidently it still uses Carrickfinn as a refuelling point.
Knock can still provide other facilities, not restricted to scheduled or chartered flights.0 -
Originally posted by Blackjack
Knock can still provide other facilities, not restricted to scheduled or chartered flights.
Like what? Brining coffins home?
I agree with most of what you're saying, but not about Knock for Air-Sea rescue.0 -
In the original comment where I raised the point that Regional airports provided other facilities, I mentioned the case of Carrickfinn being used by Air Sea Rescue. I don't believe that I said that Knock could.
As regards other facilities, Knock could act as an alternative Emergency landing point for Transatlantic Aircraft, should Shannon be unavailable. There was a case earlier this year where the Runway at Shannon was unavailable for more than an hour due to a problem with the Aircraft on the runway.
Only in the last day or so there was an emergency landing of a Delta Flight at Shannon - this would not have been possible had the runway not been available. The only other Runways to accommodate an aircraft of this size would be in Cork or Dublin.
Also, Air traffic Control. The Irish Airtraffic control authorities are from Jan 2005 due to take responsibility for some 90% of Transatlantic flights are to be routed through Irish Airspace (source: Irish Times 14th November - link for subscribers below). This specifically for the Northern Oceanic Transition Area, as distinct from the Shannon Flight Information Region.
Although Centralising the operation of all 3 regions is more likely to remain at Shannon, maintaining a contingency site or training facility elsewhere should not be ruled out.
Catering facilities for US Soldiers on their way to wherever?? :rolleyes::rolleyes:
Ok, the last one was scraping the barrell, but you get the idea.
While the above do not provide justification for the existance of an airport on their own, the synergies are there to be seen.
And you did ask.
Click here0 -
Provision of Air-Sea Rescue is a red herring, and I think the other contributions have covered this.
Knock accounts for a tiny portion of air traffic and are happy to announce that they handle 250,000 Passengers because is sounds like a large number. You yourself use the figure twice. Unfortunately the airport management are not so willing to announce the extent of the subsidy that supports this.
You are right to point out that Shannon benefits from the stopover policy, and this may end requiring them to be subsidised too. However you can hardly be suggesting that Shannon’s problems make a case for subsidising Knock. Shannon’s uncertain position reflects that the West is oversupplied with airports, Given that, on the face of it, Shannon might provide a pole for both Limerick and Galway there is a case to be made for supporting it. But Knock has no role to play, its just a badly sited airport.
The question of Knock Airport’s lack of transparency seems to exercise you greatly. Knock can decide to respond or not to respond as they see fit, but clearly we can make our own minds up about the implications of that. People will react in different ways to the airport taking state money and trumpeting alleged achievements without acknowledging that subsidy. Clearly if they were unwilling to commit to answering me by e mail I saw no possibility of them posting a reply here. I dare say they are following the discussion with a feeling of discomfort and that’s good enough for the moment. I’m a taxpayer in search of accountability, and I honestly don’t see where my postal address comes into it. If I live in Dundalk does that mean they don’t get a subsidy?
Speaking of transparency, we still don’t know your favourite breakfast.
You list a number of services which you say are profitable. Are you saying the subsidy can be dropped?
Your contribution would actually be a little stronger without your last reply. You scrabbled around looking for some justification for Knock on grounds of a need for emergency landing facilities. (While we’re at it let’s dot the Atlantic with aircraft carriers capable of taking a Jumbo.) I don’t see what relevance the air traffic control stuff has, or what synergies you see, as this seems to have to do with planes that travel through airspace under our control rather than aircraft landing here.
The essential point about Knock’s growth I have already dealt with. If passenger numbers have increased from an insignificant number to a larger insignificant number it still means that after nearly twenty years Knock is going nowhere, which is unsurprising given its location.0 -
Advertisement
-
Originally posted by Blackjack
Although Centralising the operation of all 3 regions is more likely to remain at Shannon, maintaining a contingency site or training facility elsewhere should not be ruled out.
Non-runner because:
1. IAA provide ATC services at 3 state airports (Cork, Shannon and Dublin) only.
2. Training needs are more than catered for at the new Training Centre/ATC centre at Ballycasey in Shannon, and at the facility in Dublin.
3. Contingency plans currently exist for ATC which involve utilising existing facilities at Dublin and Shannon. Knock will not be considered for future development in that regard.0 -
Originally posted by ishmael whale
Provision of Air-Sea Rescue is a red herring, and I think the other contributions have covered this.
Agreed, however he has said he was talking about other regional airports when you were taking pot shots at them.Originally posted by ishmael whale
Knock accounts for a tiny portion of air traffic and are happy to announce that they handle 250,000 Passengers because is sounds like a large number.
Are you now saying the number of 250,000 passengers is incorrect?
It’s irreverent to what portion of the over all air traffic – with that argument you could call for the closer of Cork, Galway, and Sligo.Originally posted by ishmael whale
Unfortunately the airport management are not so willing to announce the extent of the subsidy that supports this.Originally posted by ishmael whale
Clearly if they were unwilling to commit to answering me by e mail I saw no possibility of them posting a reply here. I dare say they are following the discussion with a feeling of discomfort and that’s good enough for the moment. I’m a taxpayer in search of accountability, and I honestly don’t see where my postal address comes into it. If I live in Dundalk does that mean they don’t get a subsidy?
So your main argument is based on an assumption, rather then fact?
Are you afraid of the postal system? It’s still there!Originally posted by ishmael whale
The essential point about Knock’s growth I have already dealt with. If passenger numbers have increased from an insignificant number to a larger insignificant number it still means that after nearly twenty years Knock is going nowhere, which is unsurprising given its location.
The airline business has radically changed in the last few years; the main growth at Knock has also been in that time, further growth is predicted.
Going nowhere? In one year a 25% increases to 250,000 passengers from 199,000 passenger in 2002.0 -
The provision of Air-Sea Rescue is a red herring, unrelated to the question of regional airports. Isn’t it great that we can even get mileage out of the points we agree are irrelevant.
I am clearly not saying that 250,000 passengers is an incorrect figure, but equally clearly demand for Knock's service is of great relevance. I don’t understand how you can lump Cork in with Galway and Sligo. Like Shannon, Cork services about two million passengers – far more than all the regional airports combined.
Because Knock accounts for such a small amount of air traffic, a small increase – say an extra scheduled flight – will cause a big percentage increase. Similarly a small decrease will cause a big percentage fall. Easy come, easy go and the overall picture at present is still an increase from a small portion to a larger small portion.
An earlier contributor suggested that regional airports need to be assessed on the basis of the populations they serve. Ireland has about 20 m passengers in a year. (As an aside this is about the same as Manchester Airport, but less than London Gatwick which handles about 30 m.)
There’s about 4 million of us. That makes about 5 movements per head (Yes, this is a crude measure. Show us a better one.) Mayo population is about 100,000, so you would expect, pro rata, that Knock would be handling 500,000 passengers. Its only managing half that, and we are only considering Mayo’s population and not any potential catchment from other counties so the pro rata figure is conservative. This is less than impressive after nearly twenty years and, coupled with Knock's failure to become a pole for growth, means there is no real case to be made for the airport.
I cannot understand your statement “So your main argument is based on an assumption, rather then fact?” when I have provided you with a reference, available on the internet, stating that Knock gets a subsidy of €3.8 million. How often do I have to answer the same point? Can I expect you to try to introduce the decentralisation of the Dept of Community etc Affairs for a third time?
Like Blackjack you seem very bothered over Knock’s lack of transparency. I can only repeat, yet again, that Knock Airport can respond or not as they wish, and we can draw our own conclusions. I don’t see how your question brings this point on from my immediately preceeding reply:
“People will react in different ways to the airport taking state money and trumpeting alleged achievements without acknowledging that subsidy ……. If I live in Dundalk does that mean they don’t get a subsidy?”
I might add that I find it surreal to get an e mail from the Company Secretary of an organisation telling you they want your postal address before addressing a matter in the public domain.0 -
Originally posted by ishmael whale
I am clearly not saying that 250,000 passengers is an incorrect figure, but equally clearly demand for Knock's service is of great relevance. I don’t understand how you can lump Cork in with Galway and Sligo. Like Shannon, Cork services about two million passengers – far more than all the regional airports combined.
Because Knock accounts for such a small amount of air traffic, a small increase – say an extra scheduled flight – will cause a big percentage increase. Similarly a small decrease will cause a big percentage fall. Easy come, easy go and the overall picture at present is still an increase from a small portion to a larger small portion.
An earlier contributor suggested that regional airports need to be assessed on the basis of the populations they serve. Ireland has about 20 m passengers in a year. (As an aside this is about the same as Manchester Airport, but less than London Gatwick which handles about 30 m.)
There’s about 4 million of us. That makes about 5 movements per head (Yes, this is a crude measure. Show us a better one.) Mayo population is about 100,000, so you would expect, pro rata, that Knock would be handling 500,000 passengers. Its only managing half that, and we are only considering Mayo’s population and not any potential catchment from other counties so the pro rata figure is conservative. This is less than impressive after nearly twenty years and, coupled with Knock's failure to become a pole for growth, means there is no real case to be made for the airport.
The only argument which I can see out of that is that Knock need to attract more routes – which it has been slowly doing for the last few years.0 -
Indeed Knock would indeed need to be in a position to attract more routes, but after nearly twenty years of failure, it can be reasonably seen that its just not a good location for an airport.0
-
ismael: We're simply not going to agree on this one - but then everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, you should note that looking at the bigger picture, €3.8 million is not a whole lot. Let me put this in perspective for ya..just today, it was reported that €100k/week in mileage money will be paid out to prison officers due to the closure of a couple of our prisons - requiring them to work at other prisons - OT i know, but you get my point i think?consider if you subscribe to this approach you are saying that the infrastructure should have been put into Dublin, where it would have been utilised, and not the West where it is still underutilised.
Development does not *have* to be solely on the East coast - i cant see why this should be assumed. In effect, development can and will take place where government are successful in inducing same in a particular area. Regional growth can be manipulated by central government - and a more balanced development in Ireland would be best for both Dublin and the regions.As I have said above, if we planned to put infrastructure where we expect demand will grow we would put it on the East coast.
Ok, fair enough.As I have already pointed out above, Clare is in the area in the Western Development Commission’s remit.
So when will the West of Ireland be developed for the good of its residents? When will the 'conditions' be right.“If all the economic conditions are right …”
Exactly, there’s no point in putting inappropriate infrastructure into regions that do not satisfy all the economic conditions. This was ignored in the case of Knock, and its why it’s a failure. As an aside, Athlone was only one of the locations where the State tried to grant-aid Ebay out of Dublin. Sligo was another. Ebay’s decision to forego grant aid and locate in Dublin without state support included a need to be near to an airport – the few services that Knock and Sligo can support were not sufficient.
As regards Ebay, you've proven my point for me - maybe if the followup with the rest of the required infrastructure ie. road/rail had been made, such things could be possible (at least with enticing smaller entities than Ebay in the short/medium term).
The polluter must pay not only in terms of capital costs - but in dealing with their own wastes....however, this is a whole new debate which neither of us want to get into here i think..but the polluter can pay someone else to do the actual disposal.
The point i am making here is that if you have proper road infrastructure in place, you dont have to have major population density within the immediate locality. Do we really appreciate how small this island of ours would be if we did have end to end european standard motorway?I feel the example of Hahn, which I’m not claiming any special knowledge of, may be inappropriate.I would also draw your attention to my previous reply to Monument’s points, where I draw attention to an assessment that rail is not suited to Irish conditions. (Which is, after all, why the line was closed.)
Rail - alongside most other forms of transportation has been found to be a loss maker - that excepted. However, it doesnt stop other countries from investing heavily in it - perhaps they know something we dont?Your closing statement, that central government pulls the strings on locating industry, is with respect an attempt to deny reality. Significant effort is made to attract industry West. Knock Airport attempts to promote itself as does the region. But industry does not want to locate outside of major population centres because they need the security of knowing there’s a big pool of potential employees to draw on. Blaming ‘central government’ for this is hardly right. Proponents of Knock Airport saw it as the key to developing their area. They were wrong.
Isnt this one of the main reasons we have a centralised government structure? Goes without saying that Knock Airport attempts to promote itself - but they can only make decisions regarding the airport itself - i'm talking about someone having the foresight to stategically plan for the region and deliver on amongst other things road infrastructure - Enter Séamus Breannan et al.
'industry does not want to locate outside of major population centres because they need the security of knowing theres a big pool of potential employees - i agree 100% - and this is a challenge - which has to be tackled on a ongoing basis - 'growing' regional population centres.
I understand that you dont think that Knock Airport should have been established at the time - just wonder what you think would have been a better project?0 -
Originally posted by ishmael whale
Indeed Knock would indeed need to be in a position to attract more routes, but after nearly twenty years of failure, it can be reasonably seen that its just not a good location for an airport.
Yes, however the growth in the last few years shows a good deal of hope, this is inline with the changes within the air travel business.0 -
While Monument is right to say that air transport sector is generally increasing in recent years, its important to be in a position to avail of the opportunities this is presenting. This leads me into Eurorunner’s contribution.
I have no problem with eliminating waste wherever its found, but the case in point is Knock. Its not just the €3.8 million. Another factor is the extent to which Knock, and the other regional airports, prevent any one location developing the economies of scale to support a decent amount of air services into the Western region. As I understand it all the existing regional airports provide is flights to Dublin and a few UK destinations. A subsidy can paper over the commercial cracks in these services, but it can’t conjure the numbers into existence that might support services to other locations.
I think you are overestimating the ability of government to influence where development happens. As I’ve said Knock is an example of the ‘infrastructure first’ approach, that hasn’t worked, grant aid is available to coax industry West, that’s not working, there was no particular effort to attract industry to Dublin yet there it is. What do you see government doing to promote balanced development that hasn’t already been tried and found wanting?
I don’t know when conditions will be right for the West of Ireland, but I have the feeling that you need to concentrate on having a product. If you have something the world wants they’ll come to you. But starting with misplaced infrastructure is the wrong approach. “Come to Knock, we’ve got more accountants, engineers and taxidermists than you can shake a stick at” sounds better than “Come to Knock, because its there and you can fly too.”
Ebay is worthy of study, just because there was public comment on why they turned their backs on grant aid to locate in Dublin. Airport was one reason (as in airport with lots of services), and indeed road was another. Rail did not feature. I’ve said earlier we should aim to develop a good road system linking our main centres of population before thinking about rail. Even the work done so far has shown how short distance can become.
I agree that waste disposal is another day’s work.
I suppose the reason other states are willing to invest in rail services is a feature of their higher population densities. The service may make a loss, but if they fill loads of carriages and the loss isn’t too enormous they may feel its worth doing. The risk here is that the service makes a loss and not that many people use it, so you just end up moving a few people at a much higher cost than, say, bus services.
As to what alternative use I’d have put the Knock Airport money to, my first choice is usually education. I think money spent sensibly on education is beneficial both to the pupils as individuals and ultimately to the country because we end up with more skilled people. Within education I tend to favour science, which as you probably know is a weakness of our system which is massively biased in favour of humanities.0 -
As to what alternative use I’d have put the Knock Airport money to, my first choice is usually education. I think money spent sensibly on education is beneficial both to the pupils as individuals and ultimately to the country because we end up with more skilled people. Within education I tend to favour science, which as you probably know is a weakness of our system which is massively biased in favour of humanities.
I cant possibly argue with you when you say that education is a worthy area for consideration for further funding. However, in the case of Knock/West of Ireland, how does it benefit local/regional development?
That may be but other governments have done it - there is always hope that ours can too.I think you are overestimating the ability of government to influence where development happens.
Dublin attracted investment because at the beginning at the boom, it still had several things going for it
- critical mass in comparison to the rest of the country;
- infrastructure & services in comparison to the rest of the country. OK, i'm not saying that this infrastructure was sufficient by any means but nevertheless, it still had some - the West of Ireland was and for the most part, still is a national park with no infrastructure. The point is where does one start? One has to start somewhere..
I agree completely that the idea of an airport isolated by poor access is not adviseable - but i doubt very much that this is what its proposers had in mind. ie. knock airport is part of 'work in progress'.
I agree that the development of a couple of particular industries that would be compatible with the region should be encouraged - but infrastructure is still required either way.
Finally, if we had all the cash that has gone / is going ..down the plughole in this country in other areas, we would have more than enough wealth to fund all infrastructure projects..0 -
Advertisement
-
It’s absolutely right to say that expenditure on education won’t particularly assist Knock/West of Ireland, any more than any other location. Its just that, picking up on your current comment of where to start, this is where I would start. I admit my focus is on keeping the country as a whole in the frame rather than any particular region. I’m not convinced that, as a national asset, our educational system is up to scratch. I think its getting by because we have been able to attract good people into the teaching profession (I should say I’m not being self serving, I'm not a teacher just a parent), but I’m not confident this will continue and I am concerned that science is neglected.
Its worth recalling that there is no particular reason for growth to continue, and we will all be aware of the challenges to be faced when the EU enlarges. If we’re not careful rather than debating how growth might be encouraged into the regions we’ll be back to debating how we can get any bit of business into the country at all.
The analysis that informed the spatial strategy essentially said that the problem was no alternative centre had enough population to compete with Dublin as a location and to stimulate growth somewhere else you needed to create this concentration.
This suggests that development will inevitably pass by much of the country, and the choice is between all growth centred on Dublin or growth centred on Dublin and a handful of other locations. Scattering investment ala Knock and the regional airports achieves little because none of the locations is large enough to be a pole for growth – as in Ebay ignoring Knock and Sligo Airports because they want a location with connections to the main international centres. While the case in point is airports, much the same argument applies to other infrastructure.
The danger, which seems true in the case of the regional airports, is you spend money on infrastructure in places where its ends up not being fully used while other places that need it go without. Additionally, by scattering development, the possibility that, say, Galway emerges as a pole for growth is lost. As a side-effect of this growth centres on Dublin by default not because it has any particular infrastructural advantage, as we know its transport system is positively ugh, but because no other one location has the necessary concentration.
This does mean accepting that only a few towns, maybe as few as two, have development potential and that other locations can only hope to be lifted by them, in the way that towns around Dublin have expanded. This may seem bleak, but I can only ask again what you see being done that hasn’t been tried and found wanting.0
Advertisement