America & Bush: Unfair Criticism

bonkey

Originally posted by klaz
To be perfectly honest, i'm not sure. I suspect that there would be less, but i don't know for certain. Do you think there would be less?

Nope. I think that if it had been any other single-religion-denomination looking for their promised land, and who achieved it in the same way, they'd receive identical treatment, and today we'd have people saying how the Muslims hate <religion X> instead of the Jews.

Speculative, but there you go.

Shanka

If thats the case, then why don't we see it happening in more countries? They strap on a bomb, because they are ordered to. They are commited to the idea of killing Israeli's. Its hatred pure and simple. And this might be due to Israeli actions, and again it might be due to their religious beliefs. You're forgetting that Jihads have been called against israel in the past, and will in the future. You do not know why these people do this. neither do i. We can Guess.

I don't accept that someone will strap on a bomb and kill themselves because they are simply ordered to. That makes so sense to me. These people VOLUNTEER for what they do. No-one forces them into it. I've given my reasons why I think someone does this already - there's no point in repeating myself - You don't agree - thats your opinion, fair enough.

I'm really going to be slated for this. Thjose westerners made the mistake of going into a warzone. They died. If I enter a warzone and i die, its an acceptable risk. I make that decision beforehand. Those people who died, also made that decision. And if they didn't, well, they were bloody naive.

Yep - I'd agree with you - It was their choice to be there and they knew the risks. And I don't really think they had any illusions about what they were doing. But my point was about the fact that the Israeli army does as it pleases - regardless of who has paid for their weapons... which was countering your argument that Israel's armed forces are kept in check by American involvement.

Israel succeeded in surviving without US aid for decades, and i daresay they could have continued to survive. There would just have been more deaths on both sides.

I'm no expert on the history of Israel and in some ways you are correct - Israel did okay without America up until the Suez Canal incident in 1956 - However, the Israeli State was only born in 1948 - so we're not talking decades here... More like 8 years. America actually acted against Israel that time - but decided that Israel was better off depending on the US for aid rather than the French and the British.

Since then, however, Israel has received huge packages of American arms and financial aid which helped fend off the attacks from its neighbours (who were acting on the behest of the Palestinians)

They might have well held out alone - but its doubtful. The thing about it is - Israel has always had far more enemies in the region than friends - it would only be a matter of time before they lost the upper hand.

Looking at the historical context - Americas aid to Israel had alot more to do with the cold war and alot less to do with religious or moral reasons. The US needed a strong ally in the region to prevent soviet expansion - So their aid packages were large and plentiful. More than any other country has received from the US - ever.

Israel was a capitalist country that wasn't purely Muslim - she made a natural ally for the US. You could argue that the REAL aid didn't start to arrive until after the 6-day war in 1967 - but Israel was getting aid from the US before then too. Its just that the levels of aid were vastly increased after this period.

My point is, there's no way to really tell if Israel could have held out by themselves for that amount of time as they never actually had to. They always had plenty of help.

Oh i agree. All it would take is for the killing to stop. But unfortuently i don't think that will happen. Theres too much history. Even if Israel did stop killing Palestinians, rogue groups in Palestine, Groups coming from Egypt, Jordan etc, would continue to attack Israeli troops and civilians. What would you expect Israel to do then? Bow meekly and die? Well i certainly respect their right to defend themselves........

Thats a very negative attitude:) It is your opinion but I think if we all thought like that we would never settle on anything. Alot of people said the same about northern ireland (still say it) but we've had 10 years of relative peace - big changes have occurred and I think there will be a time when people look back at the troubles and wonder what was going on. Yes, theres alot of history - but theres always history in every conflict - It doesn't mean that one day people won't actually stop killing.

I still think that only the US has the power to force Israel to make concessions - Israel has already made concessions this week - declaring that they are pulling all of their settlements from the Gaza strip - the only reason anyone has given as to why Sharon has suddenly decided to do this - American pressure.

Quick question though. I understand that Israeli tactics are criticised as being too brutal. But where does Palestinian tactics stand? Is suicide-bombing allowed as part of the Geneva Convention/international war? Are resistance cells/terrorist groups allowed to attack military & civilian targets and fade back into the populace?

The Palestinians are fighting with the only means they have at hand. Theres nothing in the Genava Convention about attacking schools with tanks - the Palestinians can only fight back with what they have. What else can you do when you're faced with tanks and attack helicopters? Rocks, rifles and petrol bombs will only go so far.

As for hit and run tactics - those are pretty standard guerrilla tactics - used by everyone from the old IRA to the Viet gong. Its how you fight a superior force. Its a means to an end. I'm not saying that they are doing the right thing - but its only natural that they would resort to these type of tactics when faced with such overwhelming odds.

If the Palestinians had an ally like the USA on their side, I really doubt you would be seeing them use human bombs and hit and run tactics against the Israelis... They would simply get into their tanks and fighter planes to deal death to the masses.

The Palestinians are fighting with the only means they have at hand. Theres nothing in the Genava Convention about attacking schools with tanks - the Palestinians can only fight back with what they have. What else can you do when you're faced with tanks and attack helicopters? Rocks, rifles and petrol bombs will only go so far.

Yes, but thats part of the problem. You see, theres too much excuses being made for the palestinian elements, and very little for Israel. Palestinian Elements are using tactics which cannot be fought with the standard tactics, therefore more viscious responses are needed.
This is turn earns a huge amount of criticism against Israel, by nations and boards such as this. I'm not saying i approve of these tactics, but when you're faced with an enemy that strikes with terror tactics, fades into the crowds and strikes again, certain restrictions are discarded.
people post that Israeli troops shouldn't use tactics witha zero tolerence policy, but there is no mention of what is causing this zero policy. Israel is expected to follow the Geneva Convention & International Law, but Palestine (even though its a recognised state) is not.

As for hit and run tactics - those are pretty standard guerrilla tactics - used by everyone from the old IRA to the Viet gong. Its how you fight a superior force. Its a means to an end. I'm not saying that they are doing the right thing - but its only natural that they would resort to these type of tactics when faced with such overwhelming odds.

Just as the response that Israel is using against Guerilla Tactics is fairly standard. Germany did the same in WW2, as did the US in Vietnam, the French in Algeria, and the British in the North. The only way to counter such tactics is with extreme measures. Most people know this, and i daresay palestinians knew it before they started such a campaign.
Israel is adapting to fight an enemy that merges with the civilian populace. The only way to fight such a war is to involve the civilian populace as potential targets. As such, they will be criticised. But who criticises Palestine?

Shanka

This is turn earns a huge amount of criticism against Israel, by nations and boards such as this. I'm not saying i approve of these tactics, but when you're faced with an enemy that strikes with terror tactics, fades into the crowds and strikes again, certain restrictions are discarded.

I think what you feel about the specifics of the conflict depends where you stand on the overall issue. Personally, I feel that Israel is the naked aggressor - Their settlements planted with the view to basically 'breed out' the Palestinians from their homeland - ie the occupied zones. The idea is that you plant down a jewish community in an area that has been an accepted Palestinian area for 100+ years so that after a certain amount of time, it will be impossible to dislodge those communities - no matter what happens in any peace talks in the future. They're called the occupied zones for a reason.

If Britain had done the same in northern Ireland for example - It would be like knocking down the entire bogside of Derry with bulldozers (while there was still people living there) forcing the entire catholic population across the border to Donegal and then simply giving the land to the most hard line loyalist prodestants they could possibly find. It sounds far fetched but there has been alot of politicians in the north who would have loved this to happen. Britain never did anything of the sort of course, but Isreal has done exactly this to the Palestinians.

I've read too much about the crimes committed by the Israeli army to ever feel sympathy towards the Israeli (government) cause. If you read up about Sharons early career as an army commander especially - it reads like a cv of a SS battalion. They've simply done too much damage for me to ever feel like they are justified in what they are doing in the occupied zones.

This said, I do not condone the bomb attacks on Israel - When I hear another bomb has gome off, killing tens of innocent civilians - I don't think, fair play to them. But I don't believe the bombs will stop going until Israel makes the first genuine move to concession. The bomb attacks are in my mind are a simple REaction to Israels actions.

The Israelis feel that their homeland has been due to them after thousands of years of being persecuted by just about everyone - I feel the same way. But at what cost? That they become the worst oppressors the world has ever known?

There has to be a limit. I think there will be a stage in the future when Israel realises this fact and makes some positive moves towards peace. The Israeli people themselves are amongst the most educated and intelligent peoples of the world. Any Israelis I have known over the years feel exactly as I do. They know their goverment is wrong to be doing the things they are doing. And I think one day these people will be in the majority in Israel.

The national service in Israel is a minumum of 6 years. 6 years of your life! 6 years of not only army service but actual action (ie you get shot at) Not only that but you have to be on standby for another 20 years, ready to be sent into action again at the drop of a hat. Even the most nationalistic Israelis are getting tired of that.

People get fed up of fighting - no matter whats at stake. Sometimes having a world to bring up your children is more important than getting one up on the other side.

If you think the Israelis are completely justied in what they are doing, then fair enough. Its your opinion and you're entitled to it. However, I believe that if you discovered in alot more detail what has been happening over there in the past 30 years, it would be very difficult for you to feel the same way. I used to have a neutral attitude to this - I didn't have an opinion on it. I took the friendship of a few Israelis to open my eyes to what was really going on.

I understand that you feel that Israel has got the brunt of critism in terms of whats happening. Its very true that Hamas and the other groups have used sick and twisted methods to hurt the Isrealis in the past. However - Israel's tactics in relation to the settlements are far more underhand in my opinion. You don't have to agree, its just what I think.