Semi-State Workers demanding jobs for life - Wrong?

ixoy

I see the whining unionsed semi-state "civil servants" (in all but name) are now demanding jobs for life (taken from today's Indo):

THOUSANDS of semi-state employees are set to demand 'civil service status' which would give them the jobs-for-life guarantees promised by Transport Minister Seamus Brennan to nearly 3,000 Aer Rianta employees.

Union chiefs in the ESB, Aer Lingus and other top state employments want similar pledges of no compulsory redundancies.

The minister's offer to Aer Rianta workers has opened the floodgates with up to 30,000 semi-state employees likely to demand special civil service status.

According to the current issue of Industrial Relations News (IRN), trade unions in the semi-state sector have said that they too will look for the sort of jobs guarantee promised by the Minister for Transport in his current row with Aer Rianta trade unions.

"Ultimately, therefore, the outcome of the Aer Rianta dispute and what is eventually put into legislation will set the context for public employment into the future. What will emerge from the Labour Relations Commission process proposed by Minister Brennan, is a sort of template that will be applicable across the public sector," IRN has predicted.

The no compulsory redundancy commitment made to Aer Rianta workers by Seamus Brennan in his letter of January 9 to ICTU general secretary, David Begg, had similarities with other previous ground-breaking job guarantees such as the letters of comfort at Team Aer Lingus and the infamous Talbot deal back in the early 1980s.

On Monday CIE staff are expected to demand similar assurances when they meet Mr Brennan. Two weeks ago, Siptu and the National Bus and Rail Union (NBRU) issued a joint statment saying that they had been assured no jobs would be lost at Dublin Bus even with one-quarter of the routes being allocated to private operators later this year.

The knock-on demand for 'civil service status', with permanent and pensionable employment assured for life, could prove a huge liability on the Exchequer.

Anyone here, who works in the private sector like myself, must feel absolutely disgusted by this. Jobs for life isn't a feasible model in the society we live in - why the hell should they get them? How does this make all the people being made redundant across the country feel, to see civil servants/semi-state workers say "Just give us our job" regardless of whether the jobs are necessary or not? Such demands have a knock on effect on us too because we're often stuck with these companies (Dublin Bus, ESB, etc.) and have to stick with their insane practices.

Anyone else then irritated like hell about this latest outrageous demand?

star gazer

Irritated, but not surprised. When you see Eircom employees getting 30% of the company for very little improvement in the company and the usual rumours of inactive powerstations being fully staffed by idle workers, there comes a point when nothing surprises about the power of unions in Semi-states. When you consider the power of air transport unions within the Taoiseach's constituency, it gives them a strong bargaining point. It's not hard to see why the unions have been allowed to dictate corporate policy within semi-states when every government is afrad of the political damage strike action does. The services provided or the value for money on the states investment are down the list when it comes to the priorities of Trade unions.

BuffyBot

Anyone else then irritated like hell about this latest outrageous demand?

Not really.

The government opened themselves up to this by fluffing the Aer Rianta issue - why wouldn't the others try and obtain the same security!

I'm not saying it's right, but it is hardly surprising or outrageous that they would try

ixoy

There's a great letter also in the Indo today - nice and bitchy, just the way I feel today with my sore head:

Sir - Out of frustration I am putting words to feelings and observations that have reached boiling point, having read the weekend papers. This country and its tax-paying workforce has, for too long, taken endless kicks, cut-backs, increases and we have received this news with a meekness reserved for the likes of some biblical tribe.

The brunt of the mismanagement and abuse of this country has been borne by the PAYE and business sectors. Our politicians (no matter which political persuasion because they all basically follow the same principle of 'feather thy nest'), have plundered this country of its reserves, its prosperity and its future.

Hand in hand with irresponsibility, stupidity, the unions and a constitution and legislature they use for their own benefit, they are in the process of destroying our nation. There are more pay increases for the politicians and top civil servants; jobs for life for some who wouldn't stand a chance in the private sector; and government officials and ministers terrified of unions rocking the boat, bending over backwards to blackmail and avert a huge PR disaster should someone from the EU take notice.

Well, the eastern Europeans are coming, and they aren't carrying any of the politically correct baggage with which we have laden ourselves. They are going to take jobs, revenue and whatever else they are rightly entitled to do. Ministers are spending tax-payers money courting these people. What have we got to offer them?

Our 'young dynamic qualified workforce' is at this moment looking for jobs abroad because they either cannot afford to start a life and/or family here, or they have seen the writing on the wall. How many eastern European companies and jobs are going to re-locate to Ireland?

Meanwhile, semi-state bodies are unable to shed unnecessary staff because a minister with all the answers from road-building to driving habits, is at the helm with a bottomless pocket and a series of quick-fire answers to issues that have taken others millions of euro and years to think about.

It is hard for any PAYE earner, entrepeneur or self-employed person to think of a situation where they could cock up any job given to them and know there would be no consequences for their actions/inactions. Ask the 27,000 private-sector workers who lost their jobs last year.

How many screw-ups have we seen in the public sector in the same period? Hands up anyone who can't reel off half-a-dozen instances of political mismanagement, planning absurdities, or financial misappropriations

Enter the unions, the great hide-away for the idle. I don't want to generalise but it's a known fact that you can be lazy on the job, and the union will protect you. Woe betide the company that tries to tackle this problem head-on.

The unions' origin lies in the Industrial Revolution, before legislation was introduced to protect workers' rights. As we now have that, they should be obsolete. Unfortunately the lethargic members of Dáil Eireann and the unions themselves don't want to let the cat out among the pigeons. You scratch my back etc. etc. George Orwell would have loved it.

How much more of my money is to go down the tube before it's noticed? Having the time to go out to petition would be great. Unfortunately, I have to work to pay a mortgage, work to keep my child in day-care, work to pay health insurance, work to pay a pension. Tell me this, who'll catch me if I fall?
Andrew Dowling,
Foster Lawn,
Lucan, Co Dublin

Sums it up perfectly! What a great letter. Andrew - if you're here - let me buy you a pint

Sparks

The reason the disparity between private and public sector pay levels is accepted is that public sector workers accept tenure as compensation.

Semi-state bodies were always considered to be part of the public sector. Hence the wages which were less than comparable companies in the private sector (with the possible exception of the boards of directors, but that's Ireland for you...).

So our choice, really, is to pay a higher wage to civil servants and eliminate tenure, or to accept the situation.

parsi

It seems to escape most people (judging by the letter above) that Civil & public servants and Semi-State workers are on the PAYE system as well..

ixoy

Originally posted by Sparks
The reason the disparity between private and public sector pay levels is accepted is that public sector workers accept tenure as compensation.

Semi-state bodies were always considered to be part of the public sector. Hence the wages which were less than comparable companies in the private sector (with the possible exception of the boards of directors, but that's Ireland for you...).

So our choice, really, is to pay a higher wage to civil servants and eliminate tenure, or to accept the situation.

Do they get paid less anymore, though? I mean with the recent pay agreement is this true? Also remember that many of them, in the administrative sector, work less hours and have flexi-time programs. So per hour are they being paid less at all?

bonkey

Originally posted by ixoy
I see the whining unionsed semi-state "civil servants" (in all but name) are now demanding jobs for life (taken from today's Indo):
...
Anyone else then irritated like hell about this latest outrageous demand?

I don't see that they're demanding jobs for life unreasonably at all. What they are demanding is equal treatment.

From the first line of the article, we see that some semi-state employees have been promised "job-for-life" status by the current minister.

Well, answer me this : If I was an employer and I turned around and promised all male employees in my office a half-day every Friday, do you think the women would be being unreasonable to demand the same? What if I promised it to employees who were, say, over 30, or some other relatively arbitrary category? What if I said that the sales team would get it, but not anyone else (including the sales-support teams)? Do oyu think that the remaining employees would happily sit back and say "well, he's the employer, he can do what he wants"???

The simple fact is that the minister has basically turned around and said "this semi-state body deserves special treatment that the others do not". All that is happening is that the remaining semi-state bodies are refusing to accept such inequality of treatment. Whether or not they even agree with the specific issue, they don't have much choice, as a union would lose credibility and effectiveness if it started saying "this inequality of treatment is fine, but we won't accept that other inequality of treatment because you must treat us all the same".

So lets not bo too quick to blame the employees or the unions. This is a mess of the Minister's own making, and someone should be asking him what drugs he was on the day he made such a short-sighted, foolish promise.

jc

ixoy

Fair point bonkey. What I'm getting at though is that the principal of jobs for life is stupid and noone should expect it. The Minister shouldn't, of course, have promised this sort of thing because it's unworkable. He's a moron for doing it. Do people believe though that semi-state works and civil servants SHOULD have a job for life, be heavily protected by the unions [as the letter points out]? Is this fair (ignoring any judgments or political precedents by blind ministers) when private sector workers rarely, if ever, get the same assurances (and no, we don't all get paid great wages).

star gazer

One point though, weren't relativities ended with the benchmarking agreement?

ixoy

Originally posted by star gazer
One point though, weren't relativities ended with the benchmarking agreement?

I thought so too. I mean wasn't the benchmarking agreement to address the apparenty disparity between wage levels? Why not now address the disparity in attitudes to work, such as hours and the job-for-life concept then. There's a gap there - don't civil servants want us to address it too

Sparks

The idea was that the disparity was meant to be addressed by the partnership agreements.

That's not quite what happened, of course.

Instead all that was eliminated was the right to expect tenure as a compensation.

star gazer

originally posted by ixoy
There's a gap there - don't civil servants want us to address it too

No, they made the verification reports for the 'benchmarks' confidential, they obviously don't want scrutiny.

Cork

Not satisfied with the benchmarking or benefits from social partnership - they seemed to have secured "jobs for life".

This gaurentee will be at our expense.

Where else would you get it? - "jobs for life".

It is amazing - if governments privatise a state company - workers look for a stake?

If a private company gets taken over - workers are lucky to retain their jobs.

Public Sector workers wanted to catch up with the private sector with benchmarking.

It is only right - they themselves accept private sector job security.

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by parsi
It seems to escape most people (judging by the letter above) that Civil & public servants and Semi-State workers are on the PAYE system as well..

RANT - don't they still pay less PRSI and get a higher milage allowance than private sector workers, not to mention in a lot of cases Sick Days can be taken if unused etc. etc. /RANT

Yeah I'd like to have "the iron rice bowl" (as it's known in China) - never having to worry about job security or paying off the mortgague - and what most of wouldn't give to be able to take a Career break - a year off work - with a guarantee you job will be there when you come back (ok not all public sector get these - but snowball's chance of getting one for the rest of us) /RANT

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
It is amazing - if governments privatise a state company - workers look for a stake?

Seems about right. You work for the company for 30 years at 60% or so of the private industry pay level, in return for tenure. Then the government sells the company out from under you (in an unbelievably incompetent manner, no less) and you expect people to suddenly accept the loss of tenure and accept the same pay?

The choice is simple, stark and clear - you can have private sector pay or the lower by ~40% public sector pay and tenure.

It is only right - they themselves accept private sector job security.

No, they don't. That's the point.

And CM, all you have to do to get that deal is to take a serious pay cut and join the civil service.

gurramok

Seems about right. You work for the company for 30 years at 60% or so of the private industry pay level, in return for tenure.

Where did you get these figures from?

Teachers(yes i loathe the worst of them) for example earn alot more than the likes of me in the private sector considering i had to take a 25% pay cut during the dot com bust.

Plus to add insult to injury, i would need Irish language qualification to take a teachers job considering the teacher that taught me the language in the first place was one of the worst teachers in my secondary school and still in his job.(that guarantee thing)

Its simply not right for certain civil servants whether state or semi-state to bully the govt for better pay(benchmarking) without adequate quality of service in return especially when we simply cannot afford it.

Trade unions are what will bring this country to its knees, thats my view as i live in a 'working-class' area, they only serve their own interests and not for the common good. (same for sh1tty govt)

The letter writer is bang on, Andrew rulez the waves

Sparks

Originally posted by gurramok
Where did you get these figures from?

My parents have worked in the public sector for decades, in Eircom, the Civil Service and in Teaching. So have most of my extended family in fact.

Teachers(yes i loathe the worst of them) for example earn alot more than the likes of me in the private sector considering i had to take a 25% pay cut during the dot com bust.

Indeed? And when you say "teachers", who do you mean? Remember, not all teachers have permanent jobs, in fact it's heading for the situation where at least half are on contract. And they get lousy hours, lousy pay and no job security. And no, they do not get 3 months off for summer, unless you count invigilating and then correcting a thousand scripts to be a holiday.

Plus to add insult to injury, i would need Irish language qualification to take a teachers job

And I needed honours maths to become an engineer. Doesn't life just suck?

Its simply not right for certain civil servants whether state or semi-state to bully the govt for better pay(benchmarking) without adequate quality of service in return especially when we simply cannot afford it.

Indeed? You seem to be forgetting that the better pay they were looking for was not 100% of the private sector wage, but more than the 40% or so they had at the time. The private sector had taken off, wages had skyrocketed, the cost of living had gone up with it, but public sector pay wasn't increasing to match it, so in effect, public sector workers were taking pay cuts while the private sector had a boom period.
If the government takes the entire boom to sort out an agreement and then finds it's in the post-boom slump when it's time to pay up, is that the fault of the people who signed up? Or are they just meant to take it in the shorts when the private sector does well and when it does badly?

Trade unions are what will bring this country to its knees, thats my view as i live in a 'working-class' area, they only serve their own interests and not for the common good. (same for sh1tty govt)

Damn right! Trade unions are not there to look out for the whole country, they exist to look out for their members and no-one else. And that's right and proper and frankly, they're the only defence that ordinary joe soaps have - or did you notice the government looking out for the common man at some point in the last six years?

parsi

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
RANT - don't they still pay less PRSI and get a higher milage allowance than private sector workers, not to mention in a lot of cases Sick Days can be taken if unused etc. etc. /RANT

Yeah I'd like to have "the iron rice bowl" (as it's known in China) - never having to worry about job security or paying off the mortgague - and what most of wouldn't give to be able to take a Career break - a year off work - with a guarantee you job will be there when you come back (ok not all public sector get these - but snowball's chance of getting one for the rest of us) /RANT

Since 1996 new entrants pay full PRSI, mileage allowances are set.. private companies can choose whatever mileage they want to give and if its no more than the Civil Service rate then its not taxable.. if a private company wants to give a smaller mileage rate then thats their business... there are 5 uncertified sick days per year..not a lot really...plenty of private sector people get career breaks eg banks and larger orgs.

As regards the mortgage a lot of lower paid civil servants don't have the luxury of one with house prices being so high (a problem shared with private secor workers)

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
And no, they do not get 3 months off for summer, unless you count invigilating and then correcting a thousand scripts to be a holiday.

...which is optional and which they get paid extra for.

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
...which is optional and which they get paid extra for.

Which is about as optional as eating food, and for which they get paid less per hour than I do for invigilating college exams.

And that's not mentioning the large amount of unpaid work that teachers are regularly expected to do without pay or complaint - hence the debacle last year of trying to find people to supervise lunch hours and extra-cirricular activities and so on.

gurramok

Originally posted by Sparks
My parents have worked in the public sector for decades, in Eircom, the Civil Service and in Teaching. So have most of my extended family in fact.

Well, i must say that they did extremely well paywise in their professions. Where did you get 60%, word of mouth ?

And they get lousy hours, lousy pay and no job security.

Lousy ???
Their hours are the same 9-5 like the rest of us for less time of the year we work.
They get mid-term breaks as well as the extended summer/xmas/halloween/easter holidays.
Their job security must be one of the best. My old school had mostly crap teachers(bar the Maths teacher who was good ) with 30 yr careers and nothing was done to get them to perform up to standard.

And no, they do not get 3 months off for summer, unless you count invigilating and then correcting a thousand scripts to be a holiday.

A 1000 scripts ?
A single teacher might have 3 classes at most, avg class size 30, total 90 scripts.
Hardly rocket science to correct scripts.

And I needed honours maths to become an engineer. Doesn't life just suck?

You wont need honours Irish to become an engineer.

Hardly an equivalent anyway, as Maths is required in nearly every walk of life for a good career path in any country. Irish is mandatory if you want to work for the state. Only 3 of my class out of 34 that left school in my year 10 years ago got honours Irish.
Reason?...Crap teacher, we all couldnt of been that thick

If the government takes the entire boom to sort out an agreement and then finds it's in the post-boom slump when it's time to pay up, is that the fault of the people who signed up? Or are they just meant to take it in the shorts when the private sector does well and when it does badly?

Shouldn't public sector take in the shorts when the private sector is not doing too well for the last few years ?....No, they get generous benchmarking.

Damn right! Trade unions are not there to look out for the whole country, they exist to look out for their members and no-one else. And that's right and proper and frankly, they're the only defence that ordinary joe soaps have - or did you notice the government looking out for the common man at some point in the last six years?

Selfish trade unions do not defend the ordinary joe soaps. The outbreak and threat of strikes in the past has been wrong. Its the ordinary joe soap that suffers at the hands of these actions, not the govt.
Remember the train/bus/esb strikes ?
It was the joe soap who suffered physically.(I remember the long walk to work in the freezing rain)
The unions got their way, the taxpayer(you and i) coughed up.

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
And that's not mentioning the large amount of unpaid work that teachers are regularly expected to do without pay or complaint...

Considering that their regular workday finishes at 4pm, you'll excuse me if I don't feel sorry for them if they have to *gasp* stay on till 5 or 5:30.

I wouldn't mind getting off at 4pm (or even 5:30) every day, and having a guaranteed job for life, and three months off (with part-time work for extra pay available if I want it) during the summer. Pity I hate kids...

Sparks

Originally posted by gurramok
Well, i must say that they did extremely well paywise in their professions.

Do you mean they were getting above the average public sector pay level?

Where did you get 60%, word of mouth ?

Comparing salaries to those offered for jobs in the private sector with the same responsibilities and requiring the same qualifications.

Lousy ???
Their hours are the same 9-5 like the rest of us for less time of the year we work.

Where did you hear that they worked from 9 to 5? College lecturers might get to work 9 to 5, I've yet to meet a teacher that got away with that little. Or do you think that they get assistants to do all the paperwork?

They get mid-term breaks as well as the extended summer/xmas/halloween/easter holidays.

They also get to set/invigilate/correct exam scripts for each of those periods.

Their job security must be one of the best.

If and only if they get a permanent job.

nothing was done to get them to perform up to standard.

Here's the kicker. What do you do to benchmark a teacher's performance? The proposals usually centred on the one metric that was easy to measure - exam results. Which not only doesn't measure teacher performance, but which has an extremely detrimental effect on the educational system, because schools with students that don't do well get less funding - which in practise means entry tests so a pupil doesn't get in without a set ability so as not to threaten the school's funding; students from disadvantaged areas (who don't do well in school because that's a bit difficult when you live the life some of these kids lead) are suddenly not people to be helped, but a threat to a teacher's salary level; and basicly, it all falls apart rather rapidly.
Until you come up with a decent way to measure teacher performance, this is going to be an unsolved problem, because no teacher worth his or her salt will accept the consequences of a bad metric.

A 1000 scripts ?
A single teacher might have 3 classes at most, avg class size 30, total 90 scripts.
Hardly rocket science to correct scripts.

And how many times have you corrected scripts? Firstly, a teacher doesn't correct his or her own students for the Leaving or Inter Certs, secondly you get given a lot more than 90 scripts (try batches of 300 or so, together with all the usual Garda security and paperwork), and then there's the arrangements that are taken to ensure that scripts are corrected in a consistent manner.

Basicly, it's not a simple job and they earn more than they're paid for it.

You wont need honours Irish to become an engineer.

And you won't need honours maths to become a teacher. The point was that some jobs carry minimum requirements - and in this case, every school in the country was required to provide you with the opportunity to sit honours Irish. You just didn't take it. So complaining now seems a waste of effort - especially since you can go back and resit that exam anytime you like.

Hardly an equivalent anyway, as Maths is required in nearly every walk of life for a good career path in any country.

You know that, and I know that - but the majority of students this year took pass maths.

Irish is mandatory if you want to work for the state.

And that's how it's been since the founding of the state. It's not just a teacher's requirement, and it's not a difficult thing to get (in the sense that you can get the course at any school and take the exam at any school - unlike, for example, applied maths, which I had to study on my own and which the school had to arrange for me to sit on my own - one of the wierder exams I've ever sat, with a 1:1 pupil:invigilator ratio )

Only 3 of my class out of 34 that left school in my year 10 years ago got honours Irish. Reason?...Crap teacher, we all couldnt of been that thick

I wish I could agree with you, but even kids passing honours maths these days are in need of remedial maths and english classes when they show up for engineering courses in college. (Unfortunately only UL is running them, the rest of us are forced to muddle through). So it certainly seems like the average application level, if not the average intelligence level, is falling off rapidly.

Selfish trade unions do not defend the ordinary joe soaps. The outbreak and threat of strikes in the past has been wrong. Its the ordinary joe soap that suffers at the hands of these actions, not the govt.
Remember the train/bus/esb strikes ?
It was the joe soap who suffered physically.(I remember the long walk to work in the freezing rain)

So you remember the strikes then?
And next time they threaten to strike, you'll notice it?
Sounds like they did their job so. An unnoticed strike serves only to bankrupt the striking workers.

The unions got their way, the taxpayer(you and i) coughed up.

So if you're in a union, you don't pay taxes? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Sparks

And how many times have you corrected scripts? Firstly, a teacher doesn't correct his or her own students for the Leaving or Inter Certs, secondly you get given a lot more than 90 scripts (try batches of 300 or so, together with all the usual Garda security and paperwork), and then there's the arrangements that are taken to ensure that scripts are corrected in a consistent manner.

Basicly, it's not a simple job and they earn more than they're paid for it.

I thought that teachers correcting leaving cert scripts during their holidays was optional and that they get paid extra for that.
The combination of both meaning they dont have to do that part if they dont want to.

Indeed I know quite a few teachers who have earned thousands during their holidays working on building sites.
It's a perk of their job that they can do that.

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
Considering that their regular workday finishes at 4pm, you'll excuse me if I don't feel sorry for them if they have to *gasp* stay on till 5 or 5:30.

I don't know of any teacher who finishes work by 4 except part-time teachers who would teach a single subject and so wouldn't have a full day's work (or a full day's pay) every day. The rest have paperwork to do after the class (lesson plans for upcoming classes have to be done on a day-to-day basis and are checked by the Dept. of Education, homework assignments have to be corrected, and the hundred-and-one other things that need to be done to prepare for the following day).

I wouldn't mind getting off at 4pm (or even 5:30) every day, and having a guaranteed job for life, and three months off (with part-time work for extra pay available if I want it) during the summer. Pity I hate kids...

And would you be willing to accept :
finishing your paid hours by 1600, having to do an average of 2 to 3 hours extra unpaid time per day in paperwork and another hour in extra supervisory duties, for which you are not paid, but are liable for any accidents that occour;
to be required to accept pretty much any kind of abuse from little brats all year round because even if you catch them smoking pot in class, you can't discipline them;
to be required to work in an environment where half the class are coming into school hungry because their families are not arranged along the Waltons model, and the other half are carrying knives;
and at the end of all that, to find that you could earn more doing nearly any other job that needs an undergrad degree and a postgraduate diploma?

If so, all you need do is get your honours Irish L.Cert, sit a H.Dip in college, and then apply to every school in the county looking for a temporary part-time job (because you don't get a permanenr job for a few years after graduation - and then only if you're lucky or sycophantic to the right people).

Enjoy!

Sparks

Originally posted by Man
I thought that teachers correcting leaving cert scripts during their holidays was optional and that they get paid extra for that.

Yup. Totally optional. No need whatsoever for you to do it. I mean, it's not like you need money when you're not working and thus not being paid, right?
Permanent teachers get paid all year round. But nearly half the teachers working in schools here are not permanent.
On top of which, what if they all say "naw, feck it, don't want to do it this year"? No-one gets their Leaving Cert. results.

Indeed I know quite a few teachers who have earned thousands during their holidays working on building sites.
It's a perk of their job that they can do that.

It's also a perk of their job that doing that brings them up to within ten or twenty percent of the pay level of a private sector job requiring an undergrad degree of a 2.2 standard or higher and postgraduate study.

Meh

Originally posted by Sparks
an average of 2 to 3 hours extra unpaid time per day in paperwork

...most of which gets done between 9 and 4 during free periods. See, you're not the only one who had a teacher in the family

On top of which, what if they all say "naw, feck it, don't want to do it this year"? No-one gets their Leaving Cert. results.

The very fact that they haven't refused to do it is evidence that they're being fairly compensated for it.

Sparks

Originally posted by Meh
...most of which gets done between 9 and 4 during free periods. See, you're not the only one who had a teacher in the family

And I'm glad to see that your family member was that organised. Mine aren't, being mere mortals...

The very fact that they haven't refused to do it is evidence that they're being fairly compensated for it.

Or proof that they can't afford not to do it.

Originally posted by Sparks
I don't know of any teacher who finishes work by 4 except part-time teachers who would teach a single subject and so wouldn't have a full day's work (or a full day's pay) every day.

Actually a good friend of mine, a full time teacher, finishes regularally before 4, has all his "extra" work done and proceeds to do at least another four or five hours carpentery work after that.
This is also done from 8 till 8 during school holidays.
I know for a fact that the head teacher is delighted with his teaching work.
Indeed I know of a lady teacher who runs a childminding service as well as teaching.
She actively participates in the minding during the holidays and does the organising during terms.
Teaching is good and flexible like that for those that are hard working and progressive

Cork

It is crazy kids getting 3 months off for Summer & when they come back - many kids have forgotten much of the 3rs.

Kids used get 3 months off to help their parents with the harvest.

where is the justification for getting 3 months holidays?