Age of consent for sex

uberwolf

Originally posted by vibe666
because the person in question is still technically a man and so by definition has no business having a vagina (according to the law anyway).

possibly completely wrong but had there not been something about the NHS paying for sex change operations under (fairly) strict proviso's and requirements. If I am remembering correctly then that would be an apparent contradiction with the above

monument

Originally posted by ishmael whale
http://www.treoir.ie/help/TeenStats'01.pdf

We actually don’t seem to be having ‘more and more young girls getting pregnant’, and I think at this stage anyone can buy condoms (or, at least, when sold through vending machines it impossible to police any age restriction). We seem to have had something of the order of 3,000 births to teenagers each year since 1984. The only change is that twenty years ago over 1,000 of those births would be marital births, whereas now only 200 would be.

Maybe you mean ‘more and more young girls getting pregnant outside marriage.’ Fine, over this same period contraception has become progressively more available in parallel with the increase in non-marital teenage births. So the only conclusion to be drawn from our experience is that the best way of discouraging young non-marital pregnancy is to promote a climate of fear and ignorance coupled with denial of any artificial means of avoiding conception.

On balance, its probably best for the state to stay out of question of private morality altogether and neither deny nor promote contraception.

Just because the amount of ‘young girls getting pregnant’ is not correctly recorded, does not mean the number is not rising – this is presuming that abortions carried out on ‘young girls’ in other countries is not included in the stats – correct me if this is not the case.

Originally posted by ishmael whale
On balance, its probably best for the state to stay out of question of private morality altogether and neither deny nor promote contraception.

That’s probably the most shocking thing I’ll read this year.

flogen

yeah, i think that comment about governments advocating contraceptives is far too general.

The government are not expected to say 'everyone MUST use contraceptives, or else', however, they should say that to avoid unwanted pregnancy and/or STDs it is vital that you use condoms etc. The fact is that casual sex with numerous people can be a health risk, and it is the governments duty to advise its peoples on protecting themselves from said risk. They have no need to get into the Catholic debate about condoms etc, as they are not answerable to the Church anymore, and it is (rightfully) more important to regard public health and well being above religious belief. If a religious belief is dangerous or possibly unhelpful to the people then no government should enforce it.

Flogen

ishmael whale

If, as LFCfan says, there was a thing on the radio saying that there are 50 births to teenagers every day here (by 365 days would be about 18,000 a year) the radio is just plain wrong. I've given a source my figure of 3,000. If someone wants to argue with this produce some verification. The CSO would publish stats on age of mother at birth - they may not be on the internet, but why the f**k should I be the only one trying to introduce some facts to the discussion.

I haven't seen stats on Irish women travelling for abortions for a while, but my picture was the figure was fairly static in recent years. Remember also, as I have already said above, we have gone from having contraception available only to married couples to reasonable availability to anyone who wants them. My understanding is that early pregancy, using the imperfect indicator of births, has been pretty much unaffected by this. But if Monument is telling us that greater availability of contraception has coincided with a plague of unwanted pregnancy he might do us a favour and produce some evidence.

I remember seeing some stats on the relative reliability of various forms of family planning. (Vasectomy is the best by a wide margin- but also, of course, irreversable.) Condoms are about as reliable as the Billings method. Yes, I was shocked too. Sort of puts it in perspective, doesn't it. An amount, but not all, of the problem seems to relate to people not connecting the words 'do not use with oil based lubricant' and 'Vaseline petroleum jelly'. Our faith in those little bits of rubber is as dodgy as the sale of indulgences and our speed to say that Government should be promoting them is as much an act of faith as a trip to Lourdes.

I remember reading a WHO study comparing the development of Irish family planning services with Turkey. In Turkey the Government decided that people needed to be told to stop having all those babies. Result, lots of effort and no return as people didn't exactly welcome the state telling them how to live their lives. In Ireland the state regarded it as too hot a potato to promote. Result, people made up their own minds once the methods became available and family sizes fell rapidly.

What was wrong with Ireland in the past was trying to force a limited Catholic Gaelic ethos on us all. To force an alternative ethos would be an equal mistake. I find suggestions that the state should depart from neutrality on matters of private morality not so much frightening as depressing to think we went through all that and learnt so little.

LFCFan

the state don't have to be involved to change things. It starts at home and in the schools. There isn't enough sex education so kids are left to experiment without realising the consequences. Sex is the most natural thing in the world FFS. None of us would be here without it and the human race wouldn't exist but some people (and the church) would have us believe that we're all going to hell for having it if it's not to reproduce. It's attitudes like this that are fcuked up and need to change.

Da_cOmRaDe_MiKe

as mentioned above condoms are only available legally to 18+... and your legally allowed to have sex from 17+? does this mean that in some subliminal ways the government are trying to promote 17 - 18 year old girls to get pregnant?


____________________________

thats my two cents.

LFCFan

Originally posted by Da_cOmRaDe_MiKe
as mentioned above condoms are only available legally to 18+... and your legally allowed to have sex from 17+? does this mean that in some subliminal ways the government are trying to promote 17 - 18 year old girls to get pregnant?

It's just another example of our rediculous laws.

flogen

there really shouldnt be an age on buying condoms, i think that if two U 17 year olds decide to break the law and have sex, they should be able to at least do so without health risks involved, however, has anyone here ever been refused condoms at any time? or even asked for ID? I think that most places wouldnt stop a kid buying them, even though the law says they should

Flogen

passive

however, has anyone here ever been refused condoms at any time? or even asked for ID?

this is the que for every sexually active teen present to stand up and say "yeah, i never got asked for id!, then i bleedin rode her out of it! it was deadly" to impress us all.

(turning 17 last week gives me the right to look down on underage people)

but no, i don't imagine shops/pharmacies would refuse to sell condoms to anyone. its not something i've ever heard anyone complaining about anyway (and, if it was a common occurance, we definately WOULD hear people complaining)

Victor

Originally posted by LFCFan
There was a thing on the radio this morning saying that 50 teenage girls were giving birth everyday in Ireland.

I think it was 50 per week (2,500 per year), but yes too many.

ishmael whale

If 50 a week is 'too many', how many would you regard as acceptable?

ixoy

Well cleary none is the best way to go, isn't it? A teenage girl does not have the means to properly look after a child, from any perspective, be it financial, physical, or emotional. Generally, she'd also lack a stable support role, such as a father.

What figure is acceptable? Not sure. 2,500 per annum - what's the percentage of teenage girls giving birth each year then? Seems it should be no more than .1% ideally.

ishmael whale

While we might dream of some possibility of zero births, I take it we all accept that teenagers are a fairly inquisitive bunch so that this will never be achieved.

According to the IFPA there are about 940 abortions involving Irish women under 20. As we know, there are about 2500 - 3000 births to teenage mothers every year. Make a generous allowance for miscarriages and to cover under-reporting of abortions and call it 5,000 pregnancies a year. According to www.cso.ie there are about 153,000 15 – 19 women in Ireland. This is a rate of 33 pregnancies per thousand 15 – 19 year olds per year.

This compares to a Scottish rate, excluding miscarriages, of 63.2 pregnancies per thousand 16 -19 year olds. In American the figure is 86 pregnancies per thousand 15 – 19 year olds, including miscarriages.

This suggests that, by international standards, we don’t really have a problem.

American stats are at:
http://www.agi-usa.org/pubs/teen_stats.html

Scottish stats are at:
http://www.isdscotland.org/isd/files/mat_tp_table1b.xls

Irish abortion stats are at:
http://www.ifpa.ie/abortion/iabst.html

Havelock

Getting back to the legal age question and the inherint messing up there of by the beauarcy. Apparently the State won't go to trial unless the underage him/her self makes the complaint and presses charges. Ego, if you are an older person and you have sex with some one under 17 and its consentual, not even the parents can have you prosicuited as they state has to rely on the "victim" to testify as to who they had sex with.

Now that I think about that, its not as funny as I thought...

ixoy

Originally posted by ishmael whale
While we might dream of some possibility of zero births, I take it we all accept that teenagers are a fairly inquisitive bunch so that this will never be achieved.

According to the IFPA there are about 940 abortions involving Irish women under 20. As we know, there are about 2500 - 3000 births to teenage mothers every year. Make a generous allowance for miscarriages and to cover under-reporting of abortions and call it 5,000 pregnancies a year. According to www.cso.ie there are about 153,000 15 – 19 women in Ireland. This is a rate of 33 pregnancies per thousand 15 – 19 year olds per year.

This compares to a Scottish rate, excluding miscarriages, of 63.2 pregnancies per thousand 16 -19 year olds. In American the figure is 86 pregnancies per thousand 15 – 19 year olds, including miscarriages.

This suggests that, by international standards, we don’t really have a problem.

Interesting statistics, although I'm sure I read somewhere we had a high rate of teenage births. If I recall correctly, England has the highest in Europe.

Given that the rate is high, can we wonder why teenagers aren't using protection more? Is it ignorance, difficulty in obtaining them, or sheer "never happen to me!" bravo attitude? Some part of me says the latter, particularly them gotting caught up in the heat of the moment. Shame and all, the possible terrible shock afterwards, the ethics of which are being debated elsewhere currently.

vibe666

Originally posted by uberwolf
possibly completely wrong but had there not been something about the NHS paying for sex change operations under (fairly) strict proviso's and requirements. If I am remembering correctly then that would be an apparent contradiction with the above

quite possibly, but i was pointing out the gaps inthe law regarding sexuakl orientation.