Caught by Gatso van

Our man in Havana

It seems to me that most are accepting this East German police system. Presumed Guilty till proven innocent, no methods to challenge evidence, fundamental right to due process in a reasonable time frame (6 weeks not being reasonable) and an unaccountable police force. Things are much better in China or Russia for that matter.

RainyDay

Originally posted by kbannon
You omitted the word 'inappropriate'in front of 'speeding'.

You seem to assume that I would trust you (and every other driver) to make individual judgements about appropriateness of speed. Based on the extremely dodgy driving that I witness every day, I don't trust you and other drivers to make sensible decisions. So the alternative solution is speed limits.

Guy:Incognito

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond
It seems to me that most are accepting this East German police system. Presumed Guilty till proven innocent, no methods to challenge evidence, fundamental right to due process in a reasonable time frame (6 weeks not being reasonable) and an unaccountable police force. Things are much better in China or Russia for that matter.

if YOUR car thats registered to YOU is caught speeding the blame is at YOUR door, and unless u come up with someone who admits they were driving the car at the time then it is your fault, end of. I tcant work any other way. What do u suggest? Maybe they shud send a fine out and suggest that if u feel ur guilty u can pay the fine if u like?

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Victor
Inappropriate speeds cause more accidents. All speed kills.

But 1mph is a speed too:)

My beef with Gatsos, etc. is that right now, someone can drink 8 pints of beer (or a bottle of whiskey), get into my car, cross 2 lanes of traffic without looking or indicating, drive up someone's arse at 39mph in a 40 zone and nothing will be done.

Then I drive past at 41mph and I am a criminal thanks to technology.

Poor driving (which most likely stems from lack of proper education) is to blame for the vast majority of road deaths, not just speed alone.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Stekelly
why is everyone trying to justify their speed by saying the road can handle higher speeds or the gard shud be in another spot, the fact of the matter is the law is the law for as long as it stands till its either changed or abolished so while its there, the descision to adhere to it falls on you and if you get caught breaking it its no1's fault but your own and you have no comeback so either 1) slow down to the speed dictated by law or 2) keep speeding and get caught and fined. but either way, accept the concequenses.

Most normal people would rather see road deaths cut instead of swelling the coffers of An Garda Siochana.

RainyDay

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
Most normal people would rather see road deaths cut instead of swelling the coffers of An Garda Siochana.

Road deaths have been dramatically cut by a combination of the penalty points system and the current enforcement & advertising campaigns. Didn't you read my post earlier in this thread.

And the fines don't swell the Garda coffers, afaik. They are part of general state funds.

And of course, the solution to cutting road deaths does not lie in the hands of the Govt, the Gardai or advertisers. It lies with you (and every other driver) and your driving habits.

Our man in Havana

Ah the trolling continues:D

Anyone ever think that Inappropriate speed limits are a problem? I.e. limits set so low that they are revenue generators and not an aid to road safety.

I agree that Inappropriate speed is the problem, not people driving responsibly in stupidly low limit areas.

RainyDay

Originally posted by Bond-James Bond
Anyone ever think that Inappropriate speed limits are a problem? I.e. limits set so low that they are revenue generators and not an aid to road safety.

I agree that Inappropriate speed is the problem, not people driving responsibly in stupidly low limit areas.

Are you really, really saying that you reckon that inappropriately low speed limits are a greater problem than inappropriately high speeding?

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by RainyDay
Are you really, really saying that you reckon that inappropriately low speed limits are a greater problem than inappropriately high speeding?

Not at all. Its a bit from column A and a LOT from column B

Victor

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
But 1mph is a speed too:)

And 1mph can kill.

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
My beef with Gatsos, etc. is that right now, someone can drink 8 pints of beer (or a bottle of whiskey), get into my car, cross 2 lanes of traffic without looking or indicating, drive up someone's arse at 39mph in a 40 zone and nothing will be done.

So speeding is easier to detect than drinking driving, thats why they are about to implement a sytem of random drink tests. The phone complaint system for other dangerous driving is being made nationwide. Do not blame anti-speeding measures for the difficulty in detecting other behaviour.

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
Then I drive past at 41mph and I am a criminal thanks to technology.

One gets caught on the "technicality", well the point is the law **is** technical.

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
Poor driving (which most likely stems from lack of proper education) is to blame for the vast majority of road deaths, not just speed alone.

Poor driving causes the accident, speed causes the deaths.

http://www.penaltypoints.ie/index2.php?fn=how_it_operates.html

A 30 m/ph impact is equivalent to dropping a car from the top of a two-storey building, a 60 m/ph impact is equivalent to dropping a car from eleven storeys.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by RainyDay

And of course, the solution to cutting road deaths does not lie in the hands of the Govt, the Gardai or advertisers.

So the Government doesn't have a responsibility to regulate driver education?

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Victor
So speeding is easier to detect than drinking driving, thats why they are about to implement a sytem of random drink tests.

I'd like to think it will make a difference but unfortunately I don't think it will. There's enough legislation already in place to deal with the problem, if the will existed.

The phone complaint system for other dangerous driving is being made nationwide.

And it is a joke to be honest.

Do not blame anti-speeding measures for the difficulty in detecting other behaviour.

I do because I don't believe it is getting to the root of the problem; bad driving. I'm all for having marked and unmarked cars actually travelling on roads because they can identify far more things going on that a garda sitting around with his speed detector. It's similar to the cannibis debate; all the cannibis seizures in the world don't stop people from ODing on heroin

Poor driving causes the accident, speed causes the deaths.

And poor driving will continue until something is done about it.

RainyDay

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
So the Government doesn't have a responsibility to regulate driver education?

The primary responsibility lies with the individual drivers to change their driving habits.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by RainyDay
The primary responsibility lies with the individual drivers to change their driving habits.

No, the primary responsibility is to be educated in the first place so that bad habits don't develop. Prevention is better than cure.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by RainyDay
Road deaths have been dramatically cut by a combination of the penalty points system and the current enforcement & advertising campaigns. Didn't you read my post earlier in this thread.

fyi

Today's deaths brings the number of fatalities on Irish roads this year to 48, up eleven on the same period last year. There were 30 deaths in January and 18 so far this month.

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/2554845?view=Eircomnet

RainyDay

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
No, the primary responsibility is to be educated in the first place so that bad habits don't develop. Prevention is better than cure.

Just to be clear, are you placing the primary responsibility on the individual drivers or on the Government?

Victor

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
fyi

You are working off record lows, of course there is likely to be an increase. That said I don't think the increase seen is accpetable. They need to constantly reinforce the message, something they haven't doen since August / September with the addition of seat belts to the list.

Some individuals have been on 10 points for quite a while, at least those few have got the message. I suspect when actual bans start being handed out there will be both a change n behavior and publicity.

Seth Brundle

Bringing it back towards my point about speed cameras and how the gardai enforce only this motoring offence:- (note the last paragraph)

from Sunday Business Post (furthermore, the article below it mentions how some of the UK's police authorities want to scale back on the amount of speed checks situated in areas where they will act as cash cows.)

Brennan's slow move
Minister Brennan's move to bring speed limits into line with our road distance measurement standard in kilometres per hour is a logical one.

By opting to set the motorway speed limit at 120 km/h, he is also in line with the trend in greater Europe.

According to details in the Michelin Europe Tourist Atlas which stretches from the Atlantic to the Urals, 22 of the 30 relevant countries have a motorway speed limit of 120 km/h or more.

However, in moving to reduce the minor road speed limit to 80 km/h (50 mph), minister Brennan is out of line with general European practice, where only 10 of the 36 states quoted in this segment have speed limits set so low.

With minor roads in rural Ireland so unlikely to see a policeman, setting a limit lower than the present one will only lead to the encouragement of "scoff-laws".

In fact, the latest Irish statistics show that the vast majority of fatalities on such roads take place late at night in single vehicle accidents, where the speed limit has no relevance.

---

and from limerick co co
Over half of all crashes on Irish roads in the first six months of 2003 happened at the weekend. During this high risk period almost 40% of fatalities occurred between the hours of 8pm and 8am. Sunday night into the early hours of Monday morning was the worst time of the week for road fatalities.

I believe that there would be a huge reduction in the amount of fatalities if they enforced other laws as rigourously as the speeding one.
Whilst there is a need to reduce the incidences of inappropriate speed, this is not (as already mentioned) enforced in critical areas - e.g. outside schools. There is too much emphasis on catching speeding drivers and because of this the gardai sit at the side of a dual carriageway shooting motorists travelling at speeds, which although are higher than the approved limit, are still safe compared to speeding in the aformentioned critical areas.
Doing 60mph on the Lucan bypass, which is a 50mph limit can be safe. Doing 30mph in my estate with its adjacent school is not! Where is the speed limit enforced? The Lucan bypass!

If it is not about generating revenue, then it is about building statistics, which look good compared to the other crap stats the gardai hold in terms of law enforcement.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by RainyDay
Just to be clear, are you placing the primary responsibility on the individual drivers or on the Government?

What I am saying is that drivers should be educated properly before they ever take to the road. The fact of the matter is that the govt. is happy to hand out provisional licences to all and sundry, where is their responsibility to ensure that they are used correctly? Would it be acceptable to hand out gun licenses to whoever wanted one, and only bother to do something when they are used illegally?

It's too late IMO to catch them when they are speeding down a road, it's still profitable though, isn't it.

Victor

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
it's still profitable though, isn't it.

No, the road traffic fines system doesn't make money. The "profit" is in the social benefit of having fewer accidents.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Victor
No, the road traffic fines system doesn't make money.

Stats?

The "profit" is in the social benefit of having fewer accidents.

Then why aren't speed cameras on dangerous roads where accidents occur instead of six lane dual carriageways with ridiculously low speed limits?

Victor

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
Stats?

Take the billion euro cost of the (whole) Garda, add the courts sytem ... and set it off against the under €100m they get from fines.

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
Then why aren't speed cameras on dangerous roads where accidents occur instead of six lane dual carriageways with ridiculously low speed limits?

The law is the law. If you want the law changed talk to your TDs and councillors. Any six lane road in this country tends to have lots of entrances and merging and demering traffic.

Atomic Pineapple

I think Victor is one of them! lets get him! hehe hehe

sorry, i'm a bad child

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Victor
Take the billion euro cost of the (whole) Garda, add the courts sytem ... and set it off against the under €100m they get from fines.

That's a ridiculous argument Victor and you know it.

The law is the law. If you want the law changed talk to your TDs and councillors. Any six lane road in this country tends to have lots of entrances and merging and demering traffic.

Indeed I agree in principle, but six lane roads tend to have fewer (if any) serious accidents compared to a single carriageway road, which usually have a speed limit 50% higher. I don't have a problem with the law as such, I just want to see it enforced in a manner which will save lives, rather than criminalise a motorist.

Genghis

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
Stats?



Then why aren't speed cameras on dangerous roads where accidents occur instead of six lane dual carriageways with ridiculously low speed limits?

I think you are quite wrong to think that the Gardai target these roads for profit - I sincerely doubt that they are motivated in this way. However, they are probably there to fulfil some other target - keep up a quota or whatever, and certainly standing on the side of a busy road will guarantee more success - even if the speed limit is IYHO ridiculous.

I would prefer a scenario where Gardai are given a graded system to enforce speeding laws - a given road with a high occurence of accidents / fatalities / injuries might be coded red until such time as its rate drops. Others might be given an orange code where the risk factor is high, even if accidents are not (perhaps near a school, along streets with high passenger volumes, or a red section that has been successfully calmed down), and a final category would be all other roads. Gardai might then be told that they must issue X number of fines in a given quarter and (say) 60% of these must be on red roads, 25% on Orange and 15% in others.

The value of X and he designation of roads would be reviewed continuously to ensure resources are available to tackle the problem, etc. An impotant part of the plan would be driver awareness - the coding of roads would not be secret.

Nuttzz

I remember uproar a couple of years ago because an area super in Laois (i think) told his boys to get 10000 tickets a year. They should have a quota on saved lives rather than on tickets, what use is a GATSO van on the tallaght bypass in rush hour, there is more speeding done at 2200-0200 on that road than at 1700, perhaps it doesnt have night vision equipment?

Victor

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
That's a ridiculous argument Victor and you know it.

So, tell me how much profit they make? Stats?

Originally posted by Tommy Vercetti
Indeed I agree in principle, but six lane roads tend to have fewer (if any) serious accidents compared to a single carriageway road

Actually because these roads are far busier they have a higher accident rate per km of road.

People moan that certain motorway sections are unsafe as they don't have median barriers. Neither do some sections of the Naas Road and people want to go nearly as fast?

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Victor
So, tell me how much profit they make? Stats? Actually because these roads are far busier they have a higher accident rate per km of road.

Quite a lot I would imagine, they don't divulge that sort of information anyway as far as I can see. The cost of purchasing and maintaining the camera, plus the costs of sending out fines etc. wouldn't take an awful lot of time to recoup. My point was that these are the costs involved, how on earth would they be supposed to fund the entire Gardai and courts system?

Also, I did say serious accidents, and I think it's safe to say that motorways and dual carriageways have a far lower accident rate than single carriageway roads anyway.

People moan that certain motorway sections are unsafe as they don't have median barriers. Neither do some sections of the Naas Road and people want to go nearly as fast?

I never moaned about motorway sections being unsafe due to lack of median barriers, I did "moan" about the NRA's response to criticism of it though. I don't want to go 70mph on the Naas Road, or 60mph for that matter. In fact I'm quite happy to drive along at 40mph when safe to do so. What I object to is over-enforcement of a low speed limit at that particular place when there are people being killed on far more dangerous stretches of road.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Nuttzz
I remember uproar a couple of years ago because an area super in Laois (i think) told his boys to get 10000 tickets a year. They should have a quota on saved lives rather than on tickets, what use is a GATSO van on the tallaght bypass in rush hour, there is more speeding done at 2200-0200 on that road than at 1700, perhaps it doesnt have night vision equipment?

Good point.

I don't think I've ever seen Garda speed checks at night, or after dark.

Tommy Vercetti

Originally posted by Genghis
I think you are quite wrong to think that the Gardai target these roads for profit - I sincerely doubt that they are motivated in this way. However, they are probably there to fulfil some other target - keep up a quota or whatever, and certainly standing on the side of a busy road will guarantee more success - even if the speed limit is IYHO ridiculous.

Sorry but when I see speed cameras on motorways and dual carriageways, which are safer roads, and never outside a school, or a shopping centre, or in a town centre, then I question their motivation. If they have a quota on the number of tickets they issue, then I believe that is a flawed system, as Nutzzz pointed out above, it should be a quota based on lives saved, not tickets issued.

I would prefer a scenario where Gardai are given a graded system to enforce speeding laws - a given road with a high occurence of accidents / fatalities / injuries might be coded red until such time as its rate drops. Others might be given an orange code where the risk factor is high, even if accidents are not (perhaps near a school, along streets with high passenger volumes, or a red section that has been successfully calmed down), and a final category would be all other roads. Gardai might then be told that they must issue X number of fines in a given quarter and (say) 60% of these must be on red roads, 25% on Orange and 15% in others.

The value of X and he designation of roads would be reviewed continuously to ensure resources are available to tackle the problem, etc. An impotant part of the plan would be driver awareness - the coding of roads would not be secret.

I think that's a pretty good idea in theory. It's similar to what police forces in England do, but again they seem to base it on the number of fines issued, and when that dropped dramatically, they lowered speed limits because revenues dropped also.