2 Poker Questions On My Mind...

jArgHA

After my last weekly holdem session, 2 situations arose which I was unsure on

A) When a player goes all-in before the flop, say one other player calls his bet. My understanding is that now both players turn their cards in the hole face-up, and the dealer throws out the flop. Is the winner of this showdown based on the flop alone, or is the turn and the river also dealt ?

Also is there are 3 players left, after one player goes all-in before the flop, are the hold cards NOT shown in this case ?

In a showdown, say three players are left and all bets are equalised. Player A shows his hole cards and declares, 'Flush, Jack High', Player B shows his hole cards and declares 'Set of 10s', and Player C declares 'I'm beaten' but doesn't want to show his hand. In this case, can Player A or Player B inisist that he shows his hand, or can the winner only insist that they see his hand ?

Lafortezza

Originally posted by jArgHA
A) When a player goes all-in before the flop, say one other player calls his bet. My understanding is that now both players turn their cards in the hole face-up, and the dealer throws out the flop. Is the winner of this showdown based on the flop alone, or is the turn and the river also dealt ?

The winner is based on the flop turn and river, ie all cards are turned.

Originally posted by jArgHA
Also is there are 3 players left, after one player goes all-in before the flop, are the hold cards NOT shown in this case ?

If the 2 remaining players still have chips and are still able to make more bets then no cards are shown. Once nobody is able to bet then all hole cards are shown.

Originally posted by jArgHA
In a showdown, say three players are left and all bets are equalised. Player A shows his hole cards and declares, 'Flush, Jack High', Player B shows his hole cards and declares 'Set of 10s', and Player C declares 'I'm beaten' but doesn't want to show his hand. In this case, can Player A or Player B inisist that he shows his hand, or can the winner only insist that they see his hand ?

It depends on table/tournament ettiquette, in the Fitzwilliam if you are beaten you don't have to show your cards, but that might differ from other casinos or house rules.

Hyzepher

Originally posted by jArgHA
In a showdown, say three players are left and all bets are equalised. Player A shows his hole cards and declares, 'Flush, Jack High', Player B shows his hole cards and declares 'Set of 10s', and Player C declares 'I'm beaten' but doesn't want to show his hand. In this case, can Player A or Player B inisist that he shows his hand, or can the winner only insist that they see his hand ?

This depends on where you are position wise. If you are first to act then you must show your cards - everyone else has the option to show or not - obviously they will show if they can win

Hyzepher

jArgHA

Originally posted by Hyzepher
This depends on where you are position wise. If you are first to act then you must show your cards - everyone else has the option to show or not - obviously they will show if they can win

Hyzepher

cheers for clearing that up. personally i would prefer if all players MUST show their cards even if beaten and in last position, as it may help towards determining their style of play based on how they were betting for that hand. think i'll insist on this for house rule...

Krusty_Clown

jArgHA: think i'll insist on this for house rule...

Should you really be doing this? Shouldn't a player be permitted to dump a losing hand?
If you were able to see/recognise everyone's style of play, then you would be eliminating skill from the game and rendering it a game of chance..

Of course, a good player may change their style of play quite frequently, so it is only the more amateur player who would be at a disadvantage..

DeVore

You should play house rules as close to tournie rules as possible, I dont know any casino that would force you to show your hand but they could exist. If you are the raiser and you are "seen" you must show but after that anyone can just declare that they have lost, they dont need to prove it!

Technically I dont think you have to show your cards even if you and your opponent are all-in though it is usual for the suspense if nothing else!

DeV.

Lafortezza

Originally posted by DeVore
Technically I dont think you have to show your cards even if you and your opponent are all-in though it is usual for the suspense if nothing else!
DeV.

Was playing a few weeks ago in the Fitzwilliam and one older guy had gone all in, 2 callers, and he asked the dealer if he had to show his cards, when the other 2 players had thrown theirs down showing trip Aces, and AA KK.

The dealer said fine and he mucked his cards, even though he was the initial raiser (by going all in first). I was sitting beside him and he said quietly to me after he mucked that a pair of sevens probably wouldn't have held up in that showdown

Hyzepher

Its all about position, not who called who.

Hyzepher

jArgHA

ok another question folks: betting out of turn

If Player A bets 20c, before Player B says anything, Player C jumps the gun and says "Call 20 and Raise 1 Euro". As far as I understand, rules on this situation vary again, but I would say that Player C MUST leave his 1.20Eur in the pot and let Player B make his call.

Say Player B now calls the 20c. Now it is with Player C, since he has already 1.20Eur in the pot, can he say call 20c (with the additional Euro being lost because of his hastiness earlier) ? And indeed can Player C say "Call 20c, Raise 1Eur since he has already 'lost' that extra euro anyway ?

Tis all a bit confusing, I have been playing the game so that in the above situation, Player C must leave his money in the pot after betting out of turn and wait for it to come around to him at which point he can use the money he put in the pot towards his betting ?

Lafortezza

AFAIK Player C has to leave his €1.20 bet in the pot. Even if Player B reraises €2 and Player C wants to fold, he has to leave that €1.20 in teh pot.
Again Casino/house rules may vary.
The €1 extra isn't "lost because of his hastiness" but he can't rettract it, he can call any raises by Player B though.