What action should be taken against Israel?

Gearoid

What action do you think should be taken against Israel for the landgrabbing and walling in of Palestinian terroties? Politicans in Europe complain but Israel doesn't seem to give a damn, it seems once they have the USA behind them they will do as they want. Any other non USA backed state wouldn't be left off so lightly, so what would you do?

magick

Shipping Blockade, by Turkey, then if the EU kicks up a stink they can claim their actually doing something about Israel .

emertoff

What would I do? That imposes no limitations. I would give them a 100-day deadline to withdraw from the occupied territories and begin the process of disarmament of their nukes and other WMD. Sharon to be arrested and indicted for crimes against humanity. Israel to pay monetary compensation to the Palestinian State. UN troops to be placed in Israel.

BattleBoar

Originally posted by emertoff
What would I do? That imposes no limitations. I would give them a 100-day deadline to withdraw from the occupied territories and begin the process of disarmament of their nukes and other WMD. Sharon to be arrested and indicted for crimes against humanity. Israel to pay monetary compensation to the Palestinian State. UN troops to be placed in Israel.

You'd have to commit european troops to fight and win a quite possibly very bloody war with Israel to get that. Would you be willing?

These sort of posts get me a wee bit angry. I started my posting in boards as being very pro-Israel. Over the period of a year, i've toned back a good bit with being slightly pro-israel, but well capable of seeing whats wrong with the nation. However, these posts don't ever change. Israel is wrong!!! every time. No mention of Palestinians being in the wrong. I even remember seeing a poll asking if you would be a suicide bomber.

This conflict/War in the Middle east, is as a result of both sides. Israel does not bear to total guilt for all that has happened there. Palestinians are not innocent little creatures, and the methods they use are in no way better than Israel's use of Gunships/tanks.

So please. Realise that Israel is not Satan. And Palestine is not Jesus in the desert.

What action do you think should be taken against Israel for the landgrabbing and walling in of Palestinian terroties?

Nothing. Re-allocation of land back to Palestinians should peace be agreed upon.

Politicans in Europe complain but Israel doesn't seem to give a damn, it seems once they have the USA behind them they will do as they want.

Israel knows how far to push the US. They won't push them too far becuae they know that the US has a habit of supporting nations/regimes and then bailing when the going gets too rough. The Israeli Government doesn't give a damn abt the rest of the world. Why should they? France has performed Nuclear Testing at risky times, Both the US and Britain invaded another nations borders, Russia dealt severely with any group that rebelled. I daresay they see the west as being very talkative, but in the end they're waving an imaginary stick.

Any other non USA backed state wouldn't be left off so lightly, so what would you do?

For the landgrabbing, see above. For the occupation? nothing.

Shipping Blockade, by Turkey, then if the EU kicks up a stink they can claim their actually doing something about Israel .

This is what i find so funny. Everybody goes on abt Israel all the time. Where are the righteous anger against african warlords, or south american dictators? You're so set against Israel, that you're missing the point. There is nothing different between what Israel is doing to Palestine, and what Russia does in their occupied territories (I certainly don't see loads of threads exclaiming that those territories should be free)

I would give them a 100-day deadline to withdraw from the occupied territories and begin the process of disarmament of their nukes and other WMD.

Okies. Withdrawal, i agree with. Disarmament. Huh? Why? What determines that Israel should disarm when the US holds the largest stockpile of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons in the world? Hmm... Israel produced those weapons themselves. They have the right to them. If they had been stopped prior to production, then fine. But they have them now. They have as much right to them as Britain, France or the US.

Sharon to be arrested and indicted for crimes against humanity.

Again a total focus on Israeli's. No comment abt what should happen to Palestinians. Sharon should be tried fairly. But not by the puppet court you would have.

Israel to pay monetary compensation to the Palestinian State

You have got to be ****ing joking? Israel occupied territories originally as a result of an Arab war. In one case the pre-empted an attack and won territories in Palestine. Whos' going to compensate the families of loved ones who dies at Palestinian hands? You maybe?

UN troops to be placed in Israel

Peacekeeping troops, yes. In both Israel and Palestine. And by agreeing to this i am not agreeing to any invasion or replacment of either government. But to be honest i don't think it would stop the violence. Withdrawal by Israel might be a step towards it, but i don't think Palestine can guarantee a peace from their end.

magick

well its a big mess really, one in which its going to take a long long time to get sorted.

Hobbes

It was on the news this morning, it is looking a lot like the EU will impose trade sanctions on Israel.

The guy on TV said it best

(sic)

Either Israel has to accept that there should be two seperate countries or that they give full rights to the people they claim the right of thier land. Granted the suicide bombers aren't helping the cause but the situation in Palistine is deplorable and is on par with what you would see in a third world african country.

Where are the righteous anger against african warlords, or south american dictators?

How many african warlords or south american dictators get a huge military budget from one of the most powerful countries in the world (the only one that sanctions what they do, at least without rules on how they can spend/use the money).

sovtek

Originally posted by klaz
Okies. Withdrawal, i agree with. Disarmament. Huh? Why? What determines that Israel should disarm when the US holds the largest stockpile of chemical, biological and nuclear weapons in the world? Hmm... Israel produced those weapons themselves. They have the right to them. If they had been stopped prior to production, then fine. But they have them now. They have as much right to them as Britain, France or the US.

Kinda like India, Pakistan, Syria, Iran, North Korea....etc etc....

You have got to be ****ing joking? Israel occupied territories originally as a result of an Arab war. In one case the pre-empted an attack and won territories in Palestine.

Ummm that forgets that the creation of Israel was the result of an occupation and expulsion of the majority of the original inhabitants and then subsequent expansion of territory by force.
"Winning" of territory by aggression is a violation of the UN charter.
I wonder if Syria should do a pre-emptive attack on Israel or much less Egypt for 30 some odd years of occupying their territory?

Withdrawal by Israel might be a step towards it, but i don't think Palestine can guarantee a peace from their end.

I guess those terrorist groups holding a cease-fire in the face of aggression by Israel prove that Palestinians don't want peace.

BattleBoar

Originally posted by sovtek
I guess those terrorist groups holding a cease-fire in the face of aggression by Israel prove that Palestinians don't want peace.

If what the Palestinians are doing qualifies as a ceasefire, what is their definition of a conflict?? Anyone can declare a ceasefire, but when you're blowing up people on a bus, it doesn't really mean anything.

Bottom line, neither side is anywhere near blameless. Israel is going to have to give up those settlements, the Palestinians are going to have to realize that these bombings only get more Palestinians killed in the long run.

IMO, Israel needs to get out of ALL the occupied territories and build the damn wall ASAP around their original borders, including going right smack through the middle of Jerusalem, with very strict border controls - perhaps only one access point between Palestine and Israel through the wall in Jerusalem with very heavy security at that point. Gaza should either become its own country or become part of Egypt, as a discontinuous Palestinian state doesn't seem to make sense. All the Israeli muslims currently not living in an occupied territory are going to have to accept relocation to the newly created Palestine or Gaza or another country of their choosing if they will be accepted there (ie. Jordan). Israel's security will still have to be guaranteed by the Western world, as there will still be a majority of Muslims who want the whole country gone for a very long time.

Maybe, just maybe, in 50 or 60 years, you'll be able to tear down the wall and not have them kill each other. But for now, I don't see any other way to both guarantee the continued existance of Israel and give the Palestinians the security and statehood they deserve.

bonkey

Originally posted by BattleBoar
If what the Palestinians are doing qualifies as a ceasefire, what is their definition of a conflict?? Anyone can declare a ceasefire, but when you're blowing up people on a bus, it doesn't really mean anything.

I tend to agree with you here BB, but I do feel obliged to point out that after the IRA declared a ceasefire in Ireland, the IRA went around carrying out their terrorist activities.

In the Irish case, a distinction was made between those who were willing to give peace a chance, and those who were not, new sub-groups - the PIRA and RIRA for example - were identified as a result.

I'm always curious as to whether or not such a distinction exists within the ranks of the Palestinian terrorism-based resistance, and if so, how clear-cut it is, and why it is something that seems to be systematically ignored by all involved and all reporting on the issue.

Bottom line, neither side is anywhere near blameless.

Yup...and as soon as more people start realising and accepting that, and stop trying to make either side less blameful than the other, the sooner progress might be made.

While there are individual "good guys" on both sides I'm sure, neither side can - in my opinion - be viewed on as having any form of higher moral ground, or of being the "good" or "bad" guys.

jc

sovtek

Originally posted by BattleBoar
If what the Palestinians are doing qualifies as a ceasefire, what is their definition of a conflict?? Anyone can declare a ceasefire, but when you're blowing up people on a bus, it doesn't really mean anything.

I was talking about last year when Hamas and other "terrorists" agreed to a ceasefire even though Israel continued to incure into the terroritories. What brought them out of the ceasefire was an Israeli assassination of one of their leaders.

Bottom line, neither side is anywhere near blameless. Israel is going to have to give up those settlements, the Palestinians are going to have to realize that these bombings only get more Palestinians killed in the long run.

Blameless no...but when a group of people invade someone's country and kick them out they are essentially responsible for the situation.
That's besides the fact that Israeli incursions and killing of civilians happened decades before the first half crazed Arab strapped a bomb to themselves.

IMO, Israel needs to get out of ALL the occupied territories and build the damn wall ASAP around their original borders, including going right smack through the middle of Jerusalem, with very strict border controls - perhaps only one access point between Palestine and Israel through the wall in Jerusalem with very heavy security at that point. Gaza should either become its own country or become part of Egypt, as a discontinuous Palestinian state doesn't seem to make sense. All the Israeli muslims currently not living in an occupied territory are going to have to accept relocation to the newly created Palestine or Gaza or another country of their choosing if they will be accepted there (ie. Jordan). Israel's security will still have to be guaranteed by the Western world, as there will still be a majority of Muslims who want the whole country gone for a very long time.

Unfortunetly because of decades of incursions into the Occupied Territories Palestinians largely live off the economy of Israel. Israel controls almost all trade and many Palestinians are forced to work (for very low wages) in Israel. The checkpoints are actually a large part of the problem...not the cure.
I guess you are also promoting the idea of expulsion for Arab Israeli's? That's also a legal definition of genocide.
Jordan's population is almost 50% immigrant and most of that population are Palestinian's. I guess they should just take more people in. That's like asking Ireland to accept all the Zimbabwean immigrants because Britian used to rule that country.

Maybe, just maybe, in 50 or 60 years, you'll be able to tear down the wall and not have them kill each other. But for now, I don't see any other way to both

Being that most Palestinians aren't suicide bombers or members of a resistance group and many actually work in Israel...I don't see that as necessarily the case.

I would have
guarantee the continued existance of Israel

Why?

and give the Palestinians the security and statehood they deserve.

Which is why I believe one Israel with Palestinians being giving full citizenship as well as right of return or compensation is the long term solution.

BattleBoar

Originally posted by sovtek
I was talking about last year when Hamas and other "terrorists" agreed to a ceasefire even though Israel continued to incure into the terroritories. What brought them out of the ceasefire was an Israeli assassination of one of their leaders.

And there are cases where a suicide bombing has "caused" Israeli incursions back into more territory as well. The conflict has never ended, both sides are at fault, and that's the very heart of the problem.

Blameless no...but when a group of people invade someone's country and kick them out they are essentially responsible for the situation.
That's besides the fact that Israeli incursions and killing of civilians happened decades before the first half crazed Arab strapped a bomb to themselves.

The wars against Israel also happened decades before suicide bombing became prevalent. So? I'm sensing a theme here.

Unfortunetly because of decades of incursions into the Occupied Territories Palestinians largely live off the economy of Israel. Israel controls almost all trade and many Palestinians are forced to work (for very low wages) in Israel. The checkpoints are actually a large part of the problem...not the cure.

The Palestinians are finally going to be free to build their own economy when they get their own state. They are going to have to adjust.

I guess you are also promoting the idea of expulsion for Arab Israeli's? That's also a legal definition of genocide.

Its also the only solution that works. By the way,
geno·cide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

I suggest you replace your dictionary.

Jordan's population is almost 50% immigrant and most of that population are Palestinian's. I guess they should just take more people in.

It's up to them. I'd like to see them accept the Palestinians, yes. Nowhere did I say that any country should be required to take them, however.

That's like asking Ireland to accept all the Zimbabwean immigrants because Britian used to rule that country.

Ridiculous analogy...full stop.

Being that most Palestinians aren't suicide bombers or members of a resistance group and many actually work in Israel...I don't see that as necessarily the case.

A. It doesn't take "most" to cause a problem.
B. Of course you don't see it as a problem because...

(BattleBoar)...I don't see any other way to both guarantee the continued existance of Israel ...

Originally posted by sovtek
Why?

Ah, here we have the theme. You don't want Israel to exist.

Which is why I believe one Israel with Palestinians being giving full citizenship as well as right of return or compensation is the long term solution.

And you know very well that you are sealing the death of the nation of Israel in 30 years when there is an Islamic majority in the country and they either kill or expel all the Jews currently there.

The hate exists Sovtek. It exists on both sides, without reason, without logic, and provides for the people of both nations nothing but a region utterly devoid of hope for a future. I'm sure you have your reasons for not wanting Israel to exist, but it does, and you, along with every muslim in the world is going to have to accept that fact. Similarly, every Israeli is going to have to accept that you cannot arbitrarily seize land and claim it as your own and build settlements on it. The world cannot be allowed to work that way if we are to live in a civil society. It makes no sense to choose sides in this fight when both sides have so clearly long since lost their ability to behave rationally in the face of the conflict.

The only solution, as I see it, is to separate Israel from those that it hates, and from those that hate it for as long as it takes. Sure, there are other "solutions" from hardliners that result in the eradication of one side or the other, but the world could do itself a great service by dispensing with the formalities and throwing those arguments out as ridiculous, because they aren't going to happen, nor should they.

Kinda like India, Pakistan, Syria, Iran, North Korea....etc etc....

Yup. Where does the right to have superweapons spring from? Your opinion, or mine? Hardly. It springs from having them.

Ummm that forgets that the creation of Israel was the result of an occupation and expulsion of the majority of the original inhabitants and then subsequent expansion of territory by force.

And that forgets that the recognition of Palestine happened the same time as the recognition of Israel. The body that you want to go in and control Israel, is the organisation that helped to create it in the first place.

And you also seem to forget that alot of the land Israel occupies has been changed from desert to growable areas. Israel reclaimed large areas from the desert, that nobody was using, but was apparently owned by every Arab in the middle east. Even though the UK was in control of those areas for 100's of years. Yes i can see where those lands were stolen from. And don't feed me a line abt Palestine having ancient rights to lands. So did Israel, as have hundreds of civilisations that have crumbled into dust.

"Winning" of territory by aggression is a violation of the UN charter.

Thats nice. But it was the UN that allocated the land in the first place, so go figure. And if you're talking abt occupied areas, well, Israel originally wanted them as buffer zones against invading arab armies, not so much for colonisation.

I wonder if Syria should do a pre-emptive attack on Israel or much less Egypt for 30 some odd years of occupying their territory

Read some history and you'll find that Syria and Egypt did try to invade Israel. They got beaten. Hence the areas that were occupied.

I guess those terrorist groups holding a cease-fire in the face of aggression by Israel prove that Palestinians don't want peace

Just as Israeli's facing Palestinian aggression don't want peace either. Both sides are responsible for this. Actually the whole of the middle east is responsible, since more than just Palestine sends attacks against Israel.

How many african warlords or south american dictators get a huge military budget from one of the most powerful countries in the world (the only one that sanctions what they do, at least without rules on how they can spend/use the money

So you're anger against Israel, and your sympathies for Palestine depends on the fact that they are backed by the US? So if Israel wasn't backed by a superpower you'd find nothing wrong with the situation? Come on! Its a favourite cause for alot of Irish people to bash Israel regardless of the circumstances involved. They feel something familiar with Palestine because Ireland was occupied at one stage. Well, if any of you are nodding in agreement, then grow up. The Arab nations wanted to commit the genocide of the Israeli people in the middle east. They failed. Palestine has been occupied ever since, because Israel has ****ed up their own defensive plan. They're stuck, and can't get out, because the alternatives are just as bad.

Neither the world, nor the Arab Nations are offering that all attacks will stop. Everyone is just saying to get out of Palestine and everything will be Rosy. It won't be. And then you'll be complaining abt how an Arab state is occupying Israel, and how Israeli's have the right to be Free.

IMO, Israel needs to get out of ALL the occupied territories and build the damn wall ASAP around their original borders, including going right smack through the middle of Jerusalem, with very strict border controls - perhaps only one access point between Palestine and Israel through the wall in Jerusalem with very heavy security at that point. Gaza should either become its own country or become part of Egypt, as a discontinuous Palestinian state doesn't seem to make sense. All the Israeli muslims currently not living in an occupied territory are going to have to accept relocation to the newly created Palestine or Gaza or another country of their choosing if they will be accepted there (ie. Jordan). Israel's security will still have to be guaranteed by the Western world, as there will still be a majority of Muslims who want the whole country gone for a very long time.

I like the concept. I'm not sure if it would work. But its the best answer i've heard from people on these boards to date. And if you're wondering whats my answer? I don't have one.

I was talking about last year when Hamas and other "terrorists" agreed to a ceasefire even though Israel continued to incure into the terroritories. What brought them out of the ceasefire was an Israeli assassination of one of their leaders.

Aye. Israel has broken ceasefires, and so have palestinian groups. The past has shown that these cease-fires seem to be a rearming process for both sides. Until peace is agreed i'm not going to be suprised if either side breaks it.

Blameless no...but when a group of people invade someone's country and kick them out they are essentially responsible for the situation.

True enough. But Palestinians are responsible also. They set themselves as an enemy of Israel. They got their asses handed to themselves, and got occupied. Both sides are responsible for the situation.

That's besides the fact that Israeli incursions and killing of civilians happened decades before the first half crazed Arab strapped a bomb to themselves.

but you're forgetting that Israel has suffered many types of attacks on their own soil. Suicide bombers are just the most notable. Palestinian resistance grps have used mortors, grenades, light machine guns, rpg launchers etc in the past. (against both military and civilian targets)

Being that most Palestinians aren't suicide bombers or members of a resistance group and many actually work in Israel...I don't see that as necessarily the case.

True. But its the minority grps that are ignored or supported by the main population that will do the killing of Israeli's. I think thats what he meant. But hey, most Israeli's would be very happy with peace.

quote:

---

I would have
guarantee the continued existance of Israel

---

Why?

Probably for the same reasons you want to see the continued existance of Palestine.

mr_angry

To be quite honest, I somewhat agree with Klaz for once. Israel are guilty of some terrible crimes, but the idea that the Palastinians are completely innocent (even by comparison) is rediculous. The fact that the original post didn't even contain any reference to the part played by the Palastinians leads me to believe that it is a particularly one-sided view.

Do most of the people on the post seriously think this is the way to resolve a conflict? Put it this way - if you expect Israel to pay compensation to the Palastinian state, do you also expect the Palastinian state to pay compensation to the families of those killed in suicide bombings?

Conflict can never be solved properly by one side being punished while the other gets off scott-free. Both sides are to blame, and both sides must accept responsibility for their past wrongs. I'm all in favour of Israel being punished for its crimes, but not if the Palastinian terrorists walk away with the world's blessing.

sovtek

Originally posted by BattleBoar
[/b]And there are cases where a suicide bombing has "caused" Israeli incursions back into more territory as well. The conflict has never ended, both sides are at fault, and that's the very heart of the problem.

That's possible but the majority of those suicide bombings take place months in seperation and after daily incursions and killing of civilians. It's just that you don't hear about the daily incidents. When there is a suicide bombing it's reported as "a period of relative calm", ignoring the 30-40 Palestinian civilians killed in the period.

The wars against Israel also happened decades before suicide bombing became prevalent. So? I'm sensing a theme here.

You mean the wars when Israel went beyond it's borders and attacked surrounding countries?
Or when European Jews invaded Palestine and expelled/killed/raped/occupied/stole/raided.....etc etc?
Yes I sense a theme me-self.

The Palestinians are finally going to be free to build their own economy when they get their own state. They are going to have to adjust.

With Israel already securing access to vital natural resources like...ummmm...water.

Its also the only solution that works.

What about being made citizens in the land they lived in for centuries? I guess that's never worked in history?

By the way,
geno·cide: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

I suggest you read the Geneva Convention

genocide
Deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to destroy a group includes the deliberate deprivation of resources needed for the group’s physical survival, such as clean water, food, clothing, shelter or medical services. Deprivation of the means to sustain life can be imposed through confiscation of harvests, blockade of foodstuffs, detention in camps, forcible relocation or expulsion into deserts.

It's up to them. I'd like to see them accept the Palestinians, yes. Nowhere did I say that any country should be required to take them, however.

It's up to who?

Ridiculous analogy...full stop. [//QUOTE]

Being that Britian used to govern both Palestine and Zimbabwe it's more relevant than I first thought.

A. It doesn't take "most" to cause a problem.
B. Of course you don't see it as a problem because...

Of course it isn't going to be the end of the problem, but given generations I think it's the best solution. As it stands now a seperate and non-continuous Palestinian state would most likely keep Palestinians in the much the same state they are in now...which is a large cause of the whole mess.
My point was that most Palestinians and most Israeli's just want to live like any other human being...the violent ones aren't going to have their pick of recruits.
It's an age old problem.

(BattleBoar)...I don't see any other way to both guarantee the continued existance of Israel ...
[/b]Ah, here we have the theme. You don't want Israel to exist.

Ahhh here comes that theme. I just knew I was going to be accused of this. I've done this dance before.

And you know very well that you are sealing the death of the nation of Israel in 30 years when there is an Islamic majority in the country and they either kill or expel all the Jews currently there.

And what about the time pre 1947 when the majority of Palestine were Arabs and the Jews that were there were doing just fine.

The hate exists Sovtek. It exists on both sides, without reason, without logic, and provides for the people of both nations nothing but a region utterly devoid of hope for a future.

There is reason and there is logic to the whole thing, although some select few decide to throw that all out the window and put it down to "religious hatred" when that's barely an element.
It's logical to me that a group of people that has been expelled from their land, kept in what are essentially refugee camps for decades, have to go through invasive and degrading checkpoints to go to a low paying job or even to see where their birthright is...are going to at least not like the people that did this. It logical to me that should the cause of this mess start to make amends that attitude will change over time.

I'm sure you have your reasons for not wanting Israel to exist, but it does, and you, along with every muslim in the world is going to have to accept that fact.

See above...
OH yeah....Arafat has already done this...IIRC even Hamas or Hezbollah has as well.

Similarly, every Israeli is going to have to accept that you cannot arbitrarily seize land and claim it as your own and build settlements on it. The world cannot be allowed to work that way if we are to live in a civil society.

Agreed,. which will go a long way to ending violence in the Middle East as well as dropping recruitment of terrorists against American and other western countries.

It makes no sense to choose sides in this fight when both sides have so clearly long since lost their ability to behave rationally in the face of the conflict.

Choosing sides...? I'm arguing for what i think is the root cause of the problem and the possible solution to that problem.

The only solution, as I see it, is to separate Israel from those that it hates, and from those that hate it for as long as it takes. Sure, there are other "solutions" from hardliners that result in the eradication of one side or the other,

And I don't advocate genocide, which I thought was clear. Your solution might or might not work...I don't know...none of us do. I've provided my idea of a solution based on what I know about the situation and given arguments for it.

but the world could do itself a great service by dispensing with the formalities and throwing those arguments out as ridiculous, because they aren't going to happen, nor should they.

I don't remember any international legal body making any solution even closely resembling that. Nor have I heard any group advancing that rhetoric other than fundamentalist zionist or Islamic groups.
I'm sorry... I forgot to mention members of Likud and Sharon.

Hobbes

Originally posted by klaz
And you also seem to forget that alot of the land Israel occupies has been changed from desert to growable areas.

So if I steal land, and then make that land better I am allowed own it? Cool. How about stealing land that others have already tried to make better? what happens there?

I am not talking about ancient history (which people seem so fond to drag up), take the last 5 years as an example.

Thats nice. But it was the UN that allocated the land in the first place, so go figure.

Thought it was England that started the mess TBH.

Read some history and you'll find that Syria and Egypt did try to invade Israel. They got beaten. Hence the areas that were occupied.

Actually Israel attacked first (granted they were on a state of high alert for a long time). you also forget to mention about the bombings by Israel prior (like Egypt trying to make a dam, Israel didn't like so *boom*, but it's ok when they do the same crap to others).

Both sides are responsible for this.

Certainly there are trouble makers on both sides, the problem is that Israel bleets as if it is defending itself against actions which were totally unprovoked.

So you're anger against Israel, and your sympathies for Palestine depends on the fact that they are backed by the US?

No I wouldn't say that. I would say that the fact that the US give billions to Israel to do this sort of crap, they could of sorted it out a long time ago. But they don't. Why is that do you think?

As for palistine, you go on and on about suicide bombers. Do you have any idea what people endure there that turns them to suicide bombing? Like the one a few months back, a girl who graduated as a lawyer with a good career but turned to suicide bomber because she watched her whole family destroyed in an Israeli missile attack, and there only crime was living near someone they wanted to kill.

Serioulsy now, if someone did that to your whole family what would you do? I am sure like most civil people you would expect the criminals to be brought to justice, but then you realise that they are the law and treat you as a terrorist simply because of where you live. Irish people relate to it because they know what it feels like to be treated as a terrorist/guilty by association. Ever know what that feels like?

So if Israel wasn't backed by a superpower you'd find nothing wrong with the situation?

Strawman. Of course it would be wrong but the crap would of sorted itself out a lot sooner thats for sure.

Palestine has been occupied ever since, because Israel has ****ed up their own defensive plan. They're stuck, and can't get out, because the alternatives are just as bad.

They have been told two options (both of which are up to Israel). They can be declared as a seperate state or Israel can say they are part of Israel and give them the same benifits as normal humans.

Aye. Israel has broken ceasefires, and so have palestinian groups.

Yet only Israel have said they will honor a ceasefire but will continue to kill people in the name of justice (which is a little bit different then breaking one). I guess they don't fully understand the whole concept of 'ceasefire' :rolleyes:.

True enough. But Palestinians are responsible also. They set themselves as an enemy of Israel.

Hmm, so at what point did they get thier asses handed to them? At what point you say that they should get thier basic human rights back?

Also you are doing the usual thing which p!sses me off. Palistinian does not equal terrorist (the same can be said of Israelis). So once you realise that not all palistinians are terrorists you have to wonder why the fuk they should have to live in what amounts to a third world country.

You know you go on about Suicide bombers/Israel attacks but are you aware of all the other crap that goes on? Crops destroyed by Israel, land stolen, houses destroyed, people shot for just being in the wrong place (in palistine it seems), destroying exports of palistine, holding up imports, bombing the crap out of the airports and then stopping people from leaving palistine (as you control all the areas they can leave by), missile attacks of police stations so they can kill a prisoner that they asked to be locked up in the first case, missile attacks into public market places, planting bombs in public places (then blaiming terrorists for it), running people over in tanks/bulldozers, burying people alive, destroying property for the sake of it.

You cry because a suicide bomber blows up a bus because it gets thrown up all over the media, try reading up on all the sh!t that actually happens over there and then tell me that all palistinians are to blame or deserve the situation they are in.

sovtek

Originally posted by mr_angry
Do most of the people on the post seriously think this is the way to resolve a conflict? Put it this way - if you expect Israel to pay compensation to the Palastinian state, do you also expect the Palastinian state to pay compensation to the families of those killed in suicide bombings?

When I speak of compensation I'm talking about land that was taken from the original inhabitants as well in subsequent invasions to secure more territory.
The Palestinian authority can't be blamed for the criminal actions of individuals any more than any other elected government can. Especially when the leaders of that elected government aren't allowed freedom of movement and constantly attacked.
I'd say that Israel starting on a peace settlement IN GOOD FAITH would dispense with said criminal activities to a large degree. But we have yet to see that happen.

BattleBoar

Originally posted by sovtek
It's up to who?

Jordan. I was responding to your response to me. Sorry if assuming you'll recognise the context of your own quote is too much of a stretch

And what about the time pre 1947 when the majority of Palestine were Arabs and the Jews that were there were doing just fine.

Doing just fine?? Firstly, they were under british rule at the time, a point you not so subtley omitted. Secondly, despite the british authority, many Jews were killed by Arabs in this time; it was far from peaceful.

And I don't advocate genocide, which I thought was clear. Your solution might or might not work...I don't know...none of us do. I've provided my idea of a solution based on what I know about the situation and given arguments for it.

sovtek, Just answer me two questions, yes or no. First, under your "final solution", do you honestly think that the nation of Israel would still exist (with Jews having equal rights) in 50 or 75 years time? Second, do you believe Israel has a right to exist? Thanks in advance.

BB

Sand

Certainly there are trouble makers on both sides, the problem is that Israel bleets as if it is defending itself against actions which were totally unprovoked.

Youve hit it right on the head there. The terrorist attacks arent unprovoked. They are very much provoked by the system of settlements and mutual loathing since the formation of Israel and the wars that followed. The issue Id raise is that the tit-for-tat who-started-it has got so pointless that people are now bleating on like the Israelis arent being provoked themselves, that there actions are wholly devoid of motivation or cause. Look at the title of the thread ....what should be done about Israel? You can just sense the wholly balanced and fair assesment underlying that question cant you?

How can the Israelis claim to be provoked by the Palestinians ...sure dont they have guns and tanks and helicopters? How can they be provoked? Well heres a video you wont see on RTE any time soon. Absolutely no reason for the Israelis to get so uppity and feel theyre beseiged by people who hate them so much theyre willing to suicide bomb buses full of civillians. Thats not provocation of course. All those military raids and assassinations of suspected terrorists are not related to terrorist attacks.

The Palestinian authority can't be blamed for the criminal actions of individuals any more than any other elected government can.

So the PA is wholly blamless for the actions of its agents - great, guess that gets Sharon and co off the hook

I'm all in favour of Israel being punished for its crimes, but not if the Palastinian terrorists walk away with the world's blessing.

Thing is, Arafat and Co can deny everything. When the Israeli military commit a crime the Israeli politicians ( should anyway ) carry the can. Arafat and his cronies are effectively untouchable as the Palestinians do not have a concentional military doing the fighting but rather terrorist organisations which can commit any and all crimes in the name of the Palestinians without any punishment.

gurramok

Thing is, Arafat and Co can deny everything. When the Israeli military commit a crime the Israeli politicians ( should anyway ) carry the can. Arafat and his cronies are effectively untouchable as the Palestinians do not have a concentional military doing the fighting but rather terrorist organisations which can commit any and all crimes in the name of the Palestinians without any punishment

Thing is that a huge proportion of the palestinian casualties were teenagers/children that were killed mostly unarmed at the hands of a legitimate army(Israeli) and no accountability has taken place. Suicide bombers are not a legitimate army, they are genocidal terrorists.
How many instances of when the Israeli military commited a crime, has the Israeli military/politicians carried the can ?
There must be a 1000 instances of Israeli army murder against civilians yet hardly any accountability. The victims were not militants/terrorists/enemy combatants.

The same can be said for the people who send in the suicide bombers that kill unarmed civilians except these instances get more attention.

By your logic, the accountability has occurred with the Israeli side yet hardly any has occurred.

How can the Israelis claim to be provoked by the Palestinians ...sure dont they have guns and tanks and helicopters? How can they be provoked?

Last week is a good example. After many weeks of calm(death count low), yet Israeli tanks roll in to Gaza, killed about 9 people, half victims 'terrorists', the other half, unarmed civilians of all ages. Then suicide bomb hits Israel a day later after many weeks lull.
Who is doing the provoking here ?:)

Btw, the video link does not work

Sand

Btw, the video link does not work

Im at work so ill respond to the rest later, but the link does work. I tested it from home after posting it, and Ive tried it from work here just 10 seconds ago and its worked both times. If youre having problems with the direct link try following the link on the right hand side of this page.

LegacyUser

a bit radical but how about permanently contaminating their major water sources, they only have three, with prior warning so no-one gets sick, israel would be totally non-viable, to survive it would have to make peace with all its neighbours to get water, peace in the middle east, this would so work !

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
When the Israeli military commit a crime the Israeli politicians ( should anyway ) carry the can.

As a matter of interest, when was the last time that any member of the Israeli military was found to have acted illegally wrt. the actions taken against Palestinians?

jc

You cry because a suicide bomber blows up a bus because it gets thrown up all over the media, try reading up on all the sh!t that actually happens over there and then tell me that all palistinians are to blame or deserve the situation they are in.

Actually, its ye guys that go on abt the suicide bombers so much. I've noticed attacks by palestinians using conventional weapons such as rpgs and mortors. Its the supporters of Palestine who love to shout out that they use suicide bombers because they have no real weapons. Not true. They do, and they use those weapons more often than any bombing campaign.

And i've never said that all palestinians are to blame. I said that Palestine is hardly innocent of the steps leading up to their military defeat. Step off your high horse, and realise that while i have sympathies for Israel for having to put up with constant attacks, i'm not blindly believing that they have a just cause. Neither does Palestine. At the end of the day, we have two cultures that are constantly trying to **** each other over.

I am not talking about ancient history (which people seem so fond to drag up), take the last 5 years as an example.

If you're talking abt 5 years ago, then i'm in complete agreement with you

Thought it was England that started the mess TBH

Sortof. England left the area, and left the decision to the UN as to who would live & rule. The UN designated the Palestinian and Israeli zones.

Actually Israel attacked first (granted they were on a state of high alert for a long time). you also forget to mention about the bombings by Israel prior (like Egypt trying to make a dam, Israel didn't like so *boom*, but it's ok when they do the same crap to others).

True. There were skirmishes on both sides. both sides launched commando (terrorist?) attacks on each other prior to the actual military attack.

Certainly there are trouble makers on both sides, the problem is that Israel bleets as if it is defending itself against actions which were totally unprovoked.

Probably because they feel the majority of the world is against them. Which it seems to be. I don't see anythjing honorable abt the Palestinian stance in this. Nothing there, gives them any innocence against Israeli attacks. Their own tactics have shaped the way that Israel responds to Resistance (possibly terrorist) attacks.

No I wouldn't say that. I would say that the fact that the US give billions to Israel to do this sort of crap, they could of sorted it out a long time ago. But they don't. Why is that do you think?

But you are. You're basically saying that it would be ok if Palestine had a backer like Russia or China. They'd have the cash then to buy better weapons to kill Israeli's. Lovely.

Anyway, look at the north of ireland. The conflict there has been going on for as long as Israel is in existance. and its only recently that peace is being given a chance. The lack of support doesn't seem to be the reason why peace is being considered.

Do you have any idea what people endure there that turns them to suicide bombing? Like the one a few months back, a girl who graduated as a lawyer with a good career but turned to suicide bomber because she watched her whole family destroyed in an Israeli missile attack, and there only crime was living near someone they wanted to kill.

No i don't. I've heard abt it, just as you have. I haven't lived through it either. So its something distant. Are you saying that you have? Hmm... and you understand completely the feeling of parents who have just heard that the schoolbus that their children were travelling in has been bombed? Tit for tat. It goes on and on.

Ever know what that feels like?

Guilt by association, yes.

Strawman. Of course it would be wrong but the crap would of sorted itself out a lot sooner thats for sure

Strawman? not really. Just commenting on your remarks.

Also you are doing the usual thing which p!sses me off. Palistinian does not equal terrorist (the same can be said of Israelis). So once you realise that not all palistinians are terrorists you have to wonder why the fuk they should have to live in what amounts to a third world country.

Actually i do place a disctinction. I do believe that there is a difference. Fighting using conventional weapons (including home made) against military targets is resistance fighting. Targeting civilians is terrorism. Israel, by attack civilians performs terrorism, just as the bombs going off in crowded areas counts as the same.

The only side step in this is the determination as to what consists of a civilian. If they're not carrying any weapons (and have not served in any military or paramilitary force), they are a civilian. and not targetable.

You know you go on about Suicide bombers/Israel attacks but are you aware of all the other crap that goes on?

Yes i am. But are you aware of the other attacks on Israeli people. The ones that don't include bombers? I've mentioned the bombers because its their most infamous tactic. And a tactic that seems to get some approval from some people on these boards. Are you aware of the attacks using conventional weapons on Israeli patrols, attacks on Israeli farmers, schools, regiligous centres etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. Are are you that focused on the plight of Palestine that you just shrug off those attacks?

You cry because a suicide bomber blows up a bus because it gets thrown up all over the media, try reading up on all the sh!t that actually happens over there and then tell me that all palistinians are to blame or deserve the situation they are in.

Palestine as a state is partially resonsible for this. They set themselves up and and engaged in a war with Israel. They got defeated. Am i wrong with any of this line? Israel won. period. Palestine got occupied.

And as for my attention whenever there is an attack on Israel, yes i do take notice. Same as i take notice if Israeli troops kill suspected terrorists or knock down some civilians house. I pay attention to what happens there because i have an interest in what happens to both States.

So if i cry out, when a school bus gets hit by a bomber, do you jump up in celebration that the poor innocent Palestinian resistance grps have struck back a blow against the evil oppressors!! Yes!! all children are innocent, except for israeli Children....

Hobbes

Originally posted by Sand
Im at work so ill respond to the rest later, but the link does work. I tested it from home after posting it, and Ive tried it from work here just 10 seconds ago and its worked both times. If youre having problems with the direct link try following the link on the right hand side of this page.

Exactly. One side get the media. How is what is happening there any better then what is happening in Palistine?

I agree with the EU on imposing trade sanctions on Israel until something is done about it. However it should be intresting to see if they can do it.

According to US export laws and US company in another country cannot agree to embargo that the US doesn't agree to. So if EU was to impose trade sanctions the US companies in the EU wouldn't be allowed by the US to comply.

Immovable object, irresitible force. :rolleyes:

Dasilva94

Originally posted by bonkey
As a matter of interest, when was the last time that any member of the Israeli military was found to have acted illegally wrt. the actions taken against Palestinians?

jc

Not against the Palestinians, but Sharon was found guilty of responsibility for the massacre at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps, and recently an IDF soldier was charged with manslaughter for the killing of Tom Hurndall.

sovtek

Originally posted by klaz
Yup. Where does the right to have superweapons spring from? Your opinion, or mine? Hardly. It springs from having them.

I agree and it exposes the hypocrisy in attacking Iraq and other countries that do have them.

And that forgets that the recognition of Palestine happened the same time as the recognition of Israel. The body that you want to go in and control Israel, is the organisation that helped to create it in the first place.

Yup and as soon as that happened Israel went beyond that and started taking more territory and expelling the people that lived there.
It's also the same organisation that told it to stop and give the land back....that was decades ago and many subsequent resolutions later...but hey we have to get rid of Saddam.

And you also seem to forget that alot of the land Israel occupies has been changed from desert to growable areas.

Doesn't matter a wit....

Israel reclaimed large areas from the desert, that nobody was using,

Nomadic is the term.....
The Afrikaners did the same thing with the nomadic tribal lands of the San and it still doesn't matter a....

Even though the UK was in control of those areas for 100's of years.

But the majority of the inhabitants weren't British nor were they Jewish....and what terrorist organisation helped convinced them to give up that control?

Yes i can see where those lands were stolen from. And don't feed me a line abt Palestine having ancient rights to lands.

I'm not talking about any religious garbage such as espoused by zionist or like minded individuals. I'm talking about the people that had lived there for centuries being kicked out by people that had lived somewhere else for centuries...which is the direct result of the situation we have today.

And if you're talking abt occupied areas, well, Israel originally wanted them as buffer zones against invading arab armies, not so much for colonisation.

What armies? The ones formed when some strangers from another land invaded? Those bastards...how dare they...

Read some history and you'll find that Syria and Egypt did try to invade Israel. They got beaten. Hence the areas that were occupied.

Only if you subscribe to the notion that history is written by the victors.

Just as Israeli's facing Palestinian aggression don't want peace either.

That depends on who you are talking about. Settlers in the occupied territories that attack the inhabitants there and then get pissed off when they fight back...yea they probably don't want peace...that's why Israel has to import them.
The victims of siucide bombings in Israel are probably a different story...

Both sides are responsible for this.

Yes both sides are responsible for violence. A major difference is that one is the occupier and one is the occupied.
One isn't state sanctioned and one is.

Actually the whole of the middle east is responsible, since more than just Palestine sends attacks against Israel.

And who is the largest supplier of military aid to Israel? Who else sells them hardware besides that?

Neither the world, nor the Arab Nations are offering that all attacks will stop.

No one has said that either...you have to start somewhere though.

It won't be. And then you'll be complaining abt how an Arab state is occupying Israel, and how Israeli's have the right to be Free.

I don't know what thread you've been replying to?

Palestinian resistance grps have used mortors, grenades, light machine guns, rpg launchers etc in the past. (against both military and civilian targets)

And IDF soldiers snipe children from cranes....

quote:

---

I would have
guarantee the continued existance of Israel

---

Probably for the same reasons you want to see the continued existance of Palestine.

I want to see the best solution for a problem created by the Israeli "experiment". It was a bad idea in the beggining and we're left with the consequences.
That said I don't think the disolution of Israel is the best solution but I also see no great moral or logical argument to preserve it other than it's been there too long to go back that route.
I want to see a situation rectified in the best possible way.

I want to see a situation rectified in the best possible way.

Same here.

gurramok

Originally posted by Sand
Im at work so ill respond to the rest later, but the link does work. I tested it from home after posting it, and Ive tried it from work here just 10 seconds ago and its worked both times. If youre having problems with the direct link try following the link on the right hand side of this page.

If its the 57mb file on that page i couldnt be bothered using up my cap.
I asssume its aftermath of a suicide bombing oweing to the picture above the link?

If so, it proves nothing other than the bloodshed on one side of the divide, somehow videos are not very common after massacre of palestinians, might be something to do with restriction of media in the occupied territories ?

That Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs page is making political capital out of the isreali victims of violence showing grotesque pictures and making bias commentry on the intifada blaming palestinians in general for every fault of the middle east problem.

What other govt makes political propaganda on the backs of victims of bloody violence in such a way? Do you see the usa govt website blaming arabs for sept 11?
Do you see the british govt website blaming irish people for the past atrocities?

Strangely enough it dont show palestinian victims of violence at the hands of the military.

Not against the Palestinians, but Sharon was found guilty of responsibility for the massacre at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps, and recently an IDF soldier was charged with manslaughter for the killing of Tom Hurndall

Guilty of responsibility for a massacre that happened many years ago.
In the present intifada, over 2,500 palestinians have died, at least half unarmed with not a single prosecution ?
Strange how a single soldier gets charged over a westerner's death.
A Westerners life is more precious than a palestinians.

BattleBoar

Originally posted by sovtek
I'm not talking about any religious garbage such as espoused by zionist or like minded individuals. I'm talking about the people that had lived there for centuries being kicked out by people that had lived somewhere else for centuries...which is the direct result of the situation we have today.

Look maybe if we had it to do all over again, we'd give the Jews the land that was West Germany and ship the Germans off to the middle east after WW2, but hindsight is 20/20.

gurramok

Originally posted by BattleBoar
Look maybe if we had it to do all over again, we'd give the Jews the land that was West Germany and ship the Germans off to the middle east after WW2, but hindsight is 20/20.

In hindsight, the jews never owned 'west germany' as a state like israel is today.