FF Satisfaction rate up 11%

emertoff

The Irish are a conservative people despite all of the socail and economic change of the last generation. Logically Fianna Fail should not be doing well with all that has gone on 7 years into government.
I detest FF and their opportunism, clientelism, stroke- and cute hoor politics but I also admit to admiring them becasue they must be the most organised, disciplined and efficient party in western european politics. In fact, they are a movement, not a party. FF is full of professionals and business people who can mix well and share a pint with their working class brethren. They are used to being in charge in their local communities and national power is only an extension of that.
We badly need a change of government because this is bad for democracy and the country is rather like a one-party state at the moment. Health boards, the judiciary, quango's etc etc etc are all full of FF appointees.

star gazer

originally posted by bonkey
I find it incredibly amusing that you say most people don't understand the system, whilst blaming the government policy for things going wrong, and then saying that policy doesn't really make much of a difference when it comes to things going right.

Well considering the governemnt always take the credit when things go right and always say it wasn't their fault when things go wrong, I'd have to call that balance.

I think people do need to educate themselves about democracy and the issues that are important for them and their community, it also is up to the political establishment to inlude everyone in the democratic process and the benefit of government. Fianna Fail may have had a reprieve but the election will be far from uneventful with the surge of sinn fein and the voter disatisfaction with government. Fine Gael and Labour may yet prove that the 'traditional' opposition have a thing or two to offer, miracles do happen

gurramok

FF is full of professionals and business people who can mix well and share a pint with their working class brethren. They are used to being in charge in their local communities and national power is only an extension of that.

Strange assumption.
As i live in a designated 'working class' community, a FF'er would only be seen at election time to suit their own ends.
They are certainly not in charge of their communities, when do you see a FF'er defending their communities, confronting a drug pusher on the street corner ?
Ah sure they leave it to the gards to do it who are severely short funded to respond to any crime situation by the very FF'er in the first place .

Fine Gael and Labour may yet prove that the 'traditional' opposition have a thing or two to offer, miracles do happen

Fine Gael do not have a single TD/councillor in my constituency(Dublin NW), you wonder why.
They appeal to sectional interests(farmers) and appear conservative rather than forward thinking and getting off the fence on issues.
A recent comment by Enda Kenny about 'jobs for the boys' on councils was a tiny step in doing something about ongoing issues.
Labour had their chance way back in mid 90's and became just another established party that talk the talk and do nothing.

Originally posted by Sparks
No, I expressly stated that their opinions were worth less

If it's for example,their opinion on a medical condition and they are not a doctor, thats a different thing entirely.

However you are speaking about their governance - I rest my case on that, you are being elitist.
It's not going to wash with Joe ordinary, at all, at all, at all :rolleyes:

My Grandmother was a very wise old woman , you know... she left off school at 16 and was well able to tell a politician what was what.If she was around today, I'd send her up to ya, for to be told she hadn't the education to have an opinion as good as your own.
I can recall many who tried, and weren't left worth two pence after the experience

My own lifes experience has though me to respect peoples opinion, regardless of who they are or how they formed it. I can disagree, and try to bring them to my way of thinking but I'd never presume some kind of superiority complex just because they are different.

Sparks

In other words Man, if we're talking about medicine, you wouldn't let your grandmother treat you for cancer because she has no idea what she's on about, but if it's politics you'd listen to her?
Well and good.
But would you give weight to the political opinion of a 17-year-old schoolkid who hasn't read a newspaper in over a year and couldn't tell you who his local TD was?

Cork

Originally posted by emertoff
Health boards, the judiciary, quango's etc etc etc are all full of FF appointees.

But are Health Boards not being abolished by this government?

This poll shows there is no alternative government with the labour loosing out to SF in many working class areas.

The days of Labour/FG offering themselves as an alternative to FF are clearly no more.

In fact this poll makes me believe the next government may be an unstable rag bag held together by independants.

Originally posted by Sparks
But would you give weight to the political opinion of a 17-year-old schoolkid who hasn't read a newspaper in over a year and couldn't tell you who his local TD was?

I'd wait till he was 18 and then if he votes, he has, as much right to his decision as the next man or woman.
Thickness is rarer that you are suggesting it is you know
An 18 year olds opinions or views or outlook on life may be radically different to a fifty year olds, thats for sure, but their views count and should count none the less.

Sparks

Originally posted by Man
I'd wait till he was 18 and then if he votes, he has, as much right to his decision as the next man or woman.
Thickness is rarer that you are suggesting it is you know
An 18 year olds opinions or views or outlook on life may be radically different to a fifty year olds, thats for sure, but their views count and should count none the less.

And once again we return to the point that I'm not talking about legal rights, I'm talking about how much your opinion is worth.
Honestly, some days it's not worth clicking the "post reply" link....

Originally posted by Sparks
And once again we return to the point that I'm not talking about legal rights, I'm talking about how much your opinion is worth.
Honestly, some days it's not worth clicking the "post reply" link....

Heh...are you having trouble coming to terms with my opinion Sparks
What is the implication in your statement:

Actually, that's not what I'm doing. I'm stating that many people aren't educated enough about the government and it's history and it's duties and how it's structured to be able to form a competent opinion on who they want to elect.

other than only those who are in your opinion educated enough, have savy enough to be voting.
You can't divorce what you are saying from elitism.

Sparks

Originally posted by Man
Heh...are you having trouble coming to terms with my opinion Sparks
What is the implication in your statement:
<snip>
other than only those who are in your opinion educated enough, have savy enough to be voting.

Gee, I don't know - maybe I was saying that people were answering the MRBI poll badly???

You can't divorce what you are saying from elitism.

I'd love to know where you get the idea that meritocratic ideas are wrong or somehow bad...

Originally posted by Sparks
Gee, I don't know - maybe I was saying that people were answering the MRBI poll badly???

Maybe you should contact the pollsters and tell them that Sparks.
Or better still contact the people who were polled and tell them what low merit their views on who should govern them have-reality check:rolleyes:

Sparks

Gee Man, you mean I should point out publically that I think they were answering the poll while not having well-informed opinions on the poll's topic?

:rolleyes:

yes , one should have the courage of ones convictions and go out there, confront the people you think aren't educated enough to have opinions on politics and see what happens.

I'd say You'd be told where to go and rightly so.

Sparks

And strangely enough, that's not what's happened - I've just been accused of saying something I'm not, namely that I'm trying to prevent people from voting, and some daft sod keeps saying I'm an elitist....

Carpo

I'm having a hard time seeing where the 'eliteism' argument is coming from here. To say that an informed opinion is better that an uninformed opion is, to me at least, fairly self evident, but has nothing to do with wether somebody has the right to hold an opinion (or vote in this case) or not.

If someone takes an interest in politics and keeps up with current events etc then obviously their opinion on politics is a (for lack of a better word) 'better' than that of someone who has no interest in/knowledge of politics. This does not mean that the uninformed person should not have a right to vote, nor does it mean that the informed persons vote should count for more, and therefore has nothing to do with eliteism as it doesnt exclude anybody.

Sparks' suggestion, to introduce a politics course in the LC in order to improve the quality of everybodys opinion (or at least those who take the course) is a fair one imo (though I'd still have serious reservations about it as it gives schools/teachers the opportunity to push their own political ideology on to students).

I dont see how the notion that one opinion being better than another, has some how been translated to mean that the less informed opinion should be excluded.

Rock Climber

Originally posted by Carpo
I'm having a hard time seeing where the 'eliteism' argument is coming from here. To say that an informed opinion is better that an uninformed opion is, to me at least, fairly self evident, but has nothing to do with wether somebody has the right to hold an opinion (or vote in this case) or not.

Well it's fair enough to argue for education to leaving cert on civics and politics but...
This is a discussion on an opinion poll is it not?
There is from what I can see an implication of snobbery in an argument that says when it comes to politics, and I quote from sparks:

most people don't know enough about the political system, the history involved, or the economics to be able to competently judge their actions.

and

Actually, that's not what I'm doing. I'm stating that many people aren't educated enough about the government and it's history and it's duties and how it's structured to be able to form a competent opinion on who they want to elect.

and then the gem from my reading of this

Actually I wasn't even talking about voting at all. I was talking about how the electorate perceive the government, as shown by monday's poll.

Sparks is belittling peoples opinions in a general way here, how does he know but that Doctors nurses and Barristers might be feeling the same way as the poll indicates-the answer is he doesn't and couldn't.
But he prefers to make generalisations because opinion doesn't go the way he wants it to go apparently.

star gazer

Sometimes to know what is really going on you have to get more than a thirty second sound bite from the TV. Sparks is right in that people don't always have the time to get fully aware of the issues surrounding a particular topic, hell you'll often hear cabinet ministers saying i don't really know much about that, it's not my department, eventhough they would be in interviews as government spokespersons. If they don't have a good command of all the major issues then it's hard for someone not involved in politics to be well abreast of important issues. We depend on the media to summarise what goes on, maybe that dependence is too much and gives too much power to media organisations. People should inform themselves and understand what they are voting for and whom they are voting for.

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks
Gee, I don't know - maybe I was saying that people were answering the MRBI poll badly???

I'd love to know where you get the idea that meritocratic ideas are wrong or somehow bad...

When attainment of education standards is neccessary to answer an openion poll or to cast ones franchise - then democracy won't exist.

Decades ago - Many left school without leaving certs - this did not stop them from taking an active interest in politics.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
When attainment of education standards is neccessary to answer an openion poll or to cast ones franchise - then democracy won't exist.
Decades ago - Many left school without leaving certs - this did not stop them from taking an active interest in politics.

Asked and answered Cork, I'm not biting....

PHB

I'm wondering here, do you think the fact that FF are up 11% is evidence that people who are anwsering the polls don't know enough about politics?

bonkey

Originally posted by Sparks
and some daft sod keeps saying

I would have thought that after this length of time you would have been able to figure out the difference between the post and the poster by now.

jc

bdiddy

Originally posted by PHB
I'm wondering here, do you think the fact that FF are up 11% is evidence that people who are anwsering the polls don't know enough about politics?

In fact,i think it shows the opposite, if people were going by whats in mainstream media then FF would probably be left without any voters(besides rich landowners who've got handy planning permission).