Ortan and Cena, future WWE franchises?

Hanza

Im watching the Randy Ortan V Shawn Micheals match at Unforgiven 2003. The match is perticularly excellent. Ortan is already an IC champ, and has had his matches and confrontations with WWEs big names.

Who here thinks Ortan could be the next marque name, like the Rock. A franchise?

Or is he a Rookie being pushed too soon.

Ortan has the in ring talent, hes in a killer angle, Evolution. IMO his mike skills need a little tweeking. Cena on Smackdown is gifted in all these areas also. But will these guys be the next big stars? I think they will go far, but Im not to sure that Ortan in perticular will the star wwe want him to be.

Hanza

NeroTheExtreme

I don't think Orton is being pushed too soon, although sticking him in the ring with Foley this early is a mistake. They need to slow the pace up a bit, which in turn, will allow him to work on his mic skills..

Speaking of Cena, I see there's a Cena DVD coming out soon. Why? Same with Brock Lesnar? They're both still rookies and don't have a hell of a lot of footage so warrant a DVD or video release?

Nero

Hanza

Thats what I was getting at. Ortan has actually been in wwe for almost 2 years. I know that doesnt sound right but it is. So being the IC champ after 2 years aint bad, but like you said he went from a rivalry with Bob Holly to an Injury(breif OVW tenure) back into the early stages of evolution, out on injury again, then thrust back into the mix, and suddenly knee deep in rivalries with Michaels and Foley, he also was the 2nd longest contender in this years RR. Plus he was in the Survivor Series Main Event for the World title. When you look at all hes done in the last 4 months, its too much. The pase does need to be slowed down.

Where as WWE are pushing Ortan with all their might, I believe Cena is almost entirerly responsible for hs overness. He just has THAT gimmick that works. Im not to sure if the gimmick could work for a World champ, he would have to play down the white rapper gimmick and just ack more like a hard ass with an attitude. Keep the raps tho, but play em down a bit.

Hanza

NeroTheExtreme

But since we're going down this road, lets look at Angle. His first major PPV was against Shawn Stasiak at the 99 Survivor Series. One year later he had been european, intercontinental and world heavyweight titles under his belt, defending the latter against the Undertaker at the following Survivor Series.

But by Wrestlemania X7, he became stuck in the midcard with Benoit in a series of matches spanning over four months, submission matches, iron man matches et al.

You push a guy too fast, then he's left with fsck all to do until it's his turn to carry the torch again. I'd hate to see that happen to Cena or Orton.

Nero

Hanza

Unfortunitly I can forsee that happening, especially to Ortan.

Hanza

Ph3n0m

Originally posted by NeroTheExtreme
But by Wrestlemania X7, he became stuck in the midcard with Benoit in a series of matches spanning over four months, submission matches, iron man matches et al.
Nero

Uhm those were perfectly great matches, pity they werent for the title

NeroTheExtreme

Oh don't get me wrong, I never said they weren't great matches. But they were still stuck in midcard. The point i was trying to make is that in the beginning, Angle was pushed too fast and after get got his slot at the top, there was nowhere to go but down.

The matches were A++ quality, especially the submission one.
Nero

PS: You can't see it happening to Orton, Hanza? Get real, it's happened to HBK!

Exit

I think Orton and Cena definitely have what it takes to go all the way to the top. Maybe not wrestling wise (but they'll only improve) but definitely on the mic. I can see them being on top of the company in a few year's time. I agree though that pushing them too early is unwise.

Look at Lesnar. What is he? 25? He's already had the world title 3 times. There's not too much they can do with him in the 10-15 years he'll probably be around.

Hanza

Unfortunitly I can forsee that happening, especially to Ortan.

You can't see it happening to Orton, Hanza? Get real, it's happened to HBK!

I agreed with you. of course it'll happen.

a-hole

yes but like undertaker it dosnt matter if they have a few mounts slack as long as they end their careers on top

Gillie

So will Cena win the Triple Threat match at NWO and go on to face Brock or will they go with the Goldberg angle?
I like the idea of Goldberg/Brock but it's timing is sh*te as its a great time for Cena to take the belt!
IMO Anyway!

Hanza

Man, we have been discussing for the last 2 weeks about Angle winning the tripple threat match, he is sheduled to face Eddie at WMXX.

Its way too early for Cena to take the strap. Not from Eddie and especially not from Brock. Way too much way to soon...

Hanza.

Gillie

I'm just pointing out what i'd like to see!
Thats all!

James R

I agree I think its a bit early. Maybe he could win King of the Ring and get his title shot that way? Seems a good idea?

The Phenom

Cena and orton could go all the way if they pushed them right and gave them the right story lines but not now cause now there still intent on keeping HHH on top

LanceStorm

King of the ring no longer exists tho mate!!
Its Badd Blood now!!

Bungalow Bill

Again i must disagree with you internet brainwashee's!. Trips isn't evil, he's just a great superstar, one every1 will remember. He's giving Orton a leg up is all, Orton has been so much cooler since joining evolution. And as for cena, he's already a legend but he doesn't need a title belt to prove that.

HHH has been in so many classics, you should really think before dismissing him as selfish mr phenom. HBKvs HHH, HHH vs mick foley, HHH vs rock etc.

Hanza

NOW HANG ON ONE GOD DAM SECOND!!!! :mad:

Dont go accusing people of making statements and being "brainwashed" before you get all the facts. Those sort of accusations really boil me man! I slaughtered HHH last year when he would not work a match to save his life, cos he was one of my favourite stars, and was wrestling like a WCW main eventer back then.

Walter Kowalski! Does that name meen anything to you? The greatest Heel of all time. Started as a total baby face, bit a mans ear off, became KIller Kowalski, the most harted and feared wrestler of his time. This man is HHHs idol, he thought HHH everythingh knows. Walter is a real legand, and HHH is our generations answer to him. Thats saying alot... My advice. Watch classic wrestling this MArch, and speaking of Legends....

I would NNOOTT call Cena a legend. He could bail of WWE tommorow and be forgotten in a months time. I hate when people throw the word legend around.

Buddy Rodgers, Walter Killer Kowalski, Harley Race, Dusty Rodes, Ric Flair, Bob Backuland, Gorilla Moonson, the origional Santo, Hulk Hogan, St. Slaughter, Hayabusa, Legion of Doom, Bret Hart, Shawn Michaels...THESE ARE LEGENDS MAN!

LIke I said, watch classic wrestling. Or at least get the greatest cage match or RIc Flairs dvds. You'll learn alot.

Hanza

Bungalow Bill

Agaon hanza, why must you stray so far from the point just to show off your doctorate in useless knowledge. Had you actually read my message then you would understand me. All i said was that trips was giving orton a hand by carrying him for a while. The phenom had previously given out that cena and orton won't get anywhere because they are intent on keeping on keeping HHH on top. My point is that orton and cena aren't on top because (a) orton always gets injured (b) cena doesn't have the in-ring ability and (c) because neither have reputations for being killers in the ring.I don't think it would be believeable for either to beat HHH

NeroTheExtreme

Originally posted by Bungalow Bill
Agaon hanza, why must you stray so far from the point just to show off your doctorate in useless knowledge. Had you actually read my message then you would understand me. All i said was that trips was giving orton a hand by carrying him for a while. The phenom had previously given out that cena and orton won't get anywhere because they are intent on keeping on keeping HHH on top. My point is that orton and cena aren't on top because (a) orton always gets injured (b) cena doesn't have the in-ring ability and (c) because neither have reputations for being killers in the ring.I don't think it would be believeable for either to beat HHH

Orton doesn't need Triple H to carry him, he needs him to stay out of the picture so he can do the job himself. In fact, they ALL need Trips out of the picture. Even Mr LeVesque recently admitted himself that he was over-exposed. Too bad it took him three years to admit it, but it's the first step towards cure.

You say Orton always gets injured? He's had two injuries in two years. How many times has HHH been out in the last two years? Two or Three, and guess what? The same injury keeps happening because HE WON'T GO AWAY FOR THE TIME NEEDED FOR IT TO HEAL! HHH can't help himself, he sticks his beak into every angle and refuses to give anyone else the rub. It's got nothing to do with being brainwashed, thats the ever loving truth!

Cena doesn't have the in-ring ability? Wash your eyes with Soap, then watch the Cena-Lesnar match from Backlash 2003 and then come back and tell me that. Even the Cena-Angle debut match knocked spots off what your hero HHH was doing at the time. In fact, there's been ONE good HHH match in the last two years, and that was with Michaels at the end of last year!

I think it's you that's been brainwashed mate
Nero

LanceStorm

Gotta love the Triple H hate!!
No matter what forum you go to, its always there leering its ugly head!!

Trip was great, trip is no longer great, my thoughts summed up!!

Gillie

Trip is f*ckin boring (or his direction is).
His best match last year was against HBK. Before that the last good match i remember him in was with the rock or foley.

I would just prefer to see someone else for a change.

NeroTheExtreme

Something i gotta clear up here. It's not so much that i hate HHH, i don't. I'm just bored of him rehashing the same old crap. He's just boring. Plus anytime someone jobs to him, they ended up midcard for life. Booker T and Michaels are two classic examples.

HHH was brilliant for his time. His snob gimmick in the mid 90s got the crowd going against him, that was his job. His DX time was probably my most memorable, even when Michaels was out of the picture. His participation in the Corporation and Nation skits still make me laugh to this day.

But after 2001, he's done nothing really worth noticing. Pairing him up with Austin, whoop de doo! It's not like they had anything else for him at the time. His comeback in 2002 got a great reaction, but they turned him heel again and stuck a belt on him that is almost superglued to him. It's almost impossible to recognise it as a championship now. Mental Note Trips - it's not 1987 anymore, you can't get away with clinging onto a belt for years.

Nero

LanceStorm

I would have no problem with triple h at all if he wasnt champ!!
Its just the same old thing with the title on him, challenger comes up, dosent ever seem like a threat to triple h, and its another 2month fued!! Where if he loses, he wins it back again...

Most of us are the MTV generation(anyone under17/18, your not!!), we cant handle long term, things need to be constantly changing in order to keep our attention!!!

a-hole

Originally posted by NeroTheExtreme
Something i gotta clear up here. It's not so much that i hate HHH, i don't. I'm just bored of him rehashing the same old crap. He's just boring. Plus anytime someone jobs to him, they ended up midcard for life. Booker T and Michaels are two classic examples.

HHH was brilliant for his time. His snob gimmick in the mid 90s got the crowd going against him, that was his job. His DX time was probably my most memorable, even when Michaels was out of the picture. His participation in the Corporation and Nation skits still make me laugh to this day.

But after 2001, he's done nothing really worth noticing. Pairing him up with Austin, whoop de doo! It's not like they had anything else for him at the time. His comeback in 2002 got a great reaction, but they turned him heel again and stuck a belt on him that is almost superglued to him. It's almost impossible to recognise it as a championship now. Mental Note Trips - it's not 1987 anymore, you can't get away with clinging onto a belt for years.

Nero

i hate people bad mothing hhh especially this new snobby eagomaniac who wont job, thats his gimick and he has proven he will drop the belt to anyone who proves themselves worthy hogan, michals, even goldberg nobody elce on raw has done the work needed to hold the title (except jerico but he was heel at the time). HHH put in the work in 99 when he went from dx to the game and he and vince feel you need to put in that much effort to get the title. i know you need a rub or two to get to the top (hhh needed a rub off folry) but you need to put in the work to get that rub.

Hanza

HHH is a very talented wrestler, and everyone has mad valid points I will agree with.

1. His early character Hunter Herst Helmsley was simple but very effective as far as heat goes.

2. DX was totally carried by him, and the attitude era was sucessfully dominated by him and a hand full of others.

3. HHH does disevrve the royal treatment as it were, but due to over exerting his body, he has become royally f**ked and now he wants to partake so much he will not give himself time to heel.

4. He will not last much longer. He is living in the past, as far as titles promos and build ups are concerned, he is a new age mix of Flair and Rogers.

Bad mouthing him is wrong. Saying he is boring however, isnt! Thats an oppinion. He has become stale, it happens, especially with over exposure.

Oh and Bungalo Bill, I clearly said that may be your oppinion and your entitled to it. Never, EVER retort to insulting me with cheep comments. Show a little respect, to everyone, even if they totally disagree with you, cos its gonna happen alot. It happens to everyone. But never insult ANYONES intellegence on these boards. Its childish, insulting and can start fudes that are not easily forgotten. Believe me... this is the voice of experience speaking.

Hanza

NeroTheExtreme

Originally posted by Hanza
Oh and Bungalo Bill, I clearly said that may be your oppinion and your entitled to it. Never, EVER retort to insulting me with cheep comments. Show a little respect, to everyone, even if they totally disagree with you, cos its gonna happen alot. It happens to everyone. But never insult ANYONES intellegence on these boards. Its childish, insulting and can start fudes that are not easily forgotten. Believe me... this is the voice of experience speaking.

Hanza

I have to agree here as well, Bungalow Bill, you're on this board two minutes and you're giving stick and ramming your opinion down everyone elses throats. Partaking in a discussion is one thing but referring to other posters as "silly internet readers" and "being brainwashed" is bang out of order.

It's a public forum, not everyone is gonna agree with you, so next time you post, please make sure you're brain is not in neutral.

Cheers,
Nero

smiaras

This post has been deleted.

a-hole

i think his gimick just hit the right cord with the fans and they started chearing for him and that lead to a push, he wasnt pushed to hard he was just given the right people at the right time, he got himself over and forced the company to put him with the heavywaights

smiaras

This post has been deleted.

Bungalow Bill

Again I feel like I have to defend my comments. People have gone crazy apparantly because i said Benoit was boring.A lot of people now say that HHH is boring and I get slammed for not complying with the popular opinions expressed on this board?
Have some perspective people. And exactly am I shoving my opinion down your throats but you are not shoving yours down mine???

Exit

People aren't going crazy. People are just disagreeing. You find Benoit boring? Fine. You like Triple H? That's fine too. We all have our favourite wrestlers and wrestlers we dislike. But don't go around saying that we're all biased because we post on the internet. That's like saying that we genuinely don't like certain wrestlers and only support them because we think it's cool to do so. That's what gets people's hackles up.

Anyway, by your reckoning, you're as biased as we are as you also post on the internet.

Bungalow Bill

The point I was making EXIT is that I wasn't being allowed to express an opinion that was unpopular with the mainstays of this board. They actually did take it badly had you read the thread. I was being given out to for shoving my opinions down other people's throats but just cause i don't like benoit then they do the same to me????
It appears as if the rules of this board state that you must love benoit and hate triple H.
And no, i have not become biased due to posting on the internet, if you read internet sites you will find that i actually (unintentionally ) go against the grain. Some people on this board, however, are perfectly in line with what they read on these sites. That's what gets my hackles up.

Exit

Originally posted by Bungalow Bill
Some people on this board, however, are perfectly in line with what they read on these sites. That's what gets my hackles up.

They're allowed to be.

Bungalow Bill

My point was.............actually I'm not saying it again, just stop being so stupid and read the frickin thread. My opinion is my opinion and I won't get slammed for it. And as for it being ok to everybody think the same thing...........of course they're allowed to be but that's irrelevant. Think for yourself.

Exit

Originally posted by Bungalow Bill
My opinion is my opinion and I won't get slammed for it.

That also applies to everyone else on here.

And as for it being ok to everybody think the same thing...........of course they're allowed to be but that's irrelevant. Think for yourself.

Just because somebody happens to be in the majority, it doesn't mean they're not thinking for themselves, does it?

The Phenom

I have to agree with bill on this ive been reading this stuff and yous all seem to be ragging on him a bit. Yous say everybodies entitled to there own opinion well them leave him to his.

smiaras

This post has been deleted.

NeroTheExtreme

Originally posted by Bungalow Bill
My point was.............actually I'm not saying it again, just stop being so stupid and read the frickin thread. My opinion is my opinion and I won't get slammed for it. And as for it being ok to everybody think the same thing...........of course they're allowed to be but that's irrelevant. Think for yourself.

He has read the thread, everyones opinion is theirs and thats fine, but you're ramming your opinion down everyone elses throats, and as a results, you've pissed off the mainstays on the board.

They are thinking for themselves, and right now, they're thinking who the hell is this smart mark wannabe coming in and slamming everyone because they happen to have the same point of view as the majority?

To quote yourself, "think for yourself"
To quote myself, "think before you bloody post!"

Nero

Bungalow Bill

". I was being given out to for shoving my opinions down other people's throats but just cause i don't like benoit then they do the same to me????
It appears as if the rules of this board state that you must love benoit and hate triple H. "

Nero, our all knowing lord, you have absolutely no right to go on the way you do. You think that just because you dedicate your life and soul to this message board that you somehow own and moderate it??
If I wish to make a point, even in a midly abrasive manner, then I will do so, and everyone else should too.
And as for being a "wannabe smart mark", do we really have to be as sad as you before we become the "real deal". You, i suppose, have achieved this. Hope your parents are real proud of ya Nero. Your ignorant, and the fact that you idolise Scott Keith and regurgitate every thought that comes into his head is kinda pathetic, even for you.

NeroTheExtreme

Originally posted by Bungalow Bill
". I was being given out to for shoving my opinions down other people's throats but just cause i don't like benoit then they do the same to me????
It appears as if the rules of this board state that you must love benoit and hate triple H. "

Nero, our all knowing lord, you have absolutely no right to go on the way you do. You think that just because you dedicate your life and soul to this message board that you somehow own and moderate it??
If I wish to make a point, even in a midly abrasive manner, then I will do so, and everyone else should too.
And as for being a "wannabe smart mark", do we really have to be as sad as you before we become the "real deal". You, i suppose, have achieved this. Hope your parents are real proud of ya Nero. Your ignorant, and the fact that you idolise Scott Keith and regurgitate every thought that comes into his head is kinda pathetic, even for you.

*cracks knuckles* I was waiting for this!

First off, nobody is shoving their opinions down your throat. It's a discussion forum, but when someone comes around and TELLS you what you should be thinking, which is what you've been doing for the last few days, then i've news for ya... Nobodys gonna stand for it.

I don't think i own or moderate this board, nor have i ever acted like i did. The views in my posts reflect me and my own opinions and nobody elses. Deal with it. I volunteered to be a mod if bombidol was too busy, and that was it.

I don't idolise SK, the guy makes valid points which happen to be the way I think. Just because he slams or insults your excuses for heroes, don't take your sh|te out on me, your reaction nearly made me piss myself.
As for your retort, I won't even dignify that with a response seeing as you obviously lost the rag and got personal (bringing my parents into it), you've already lost the debate.

Nero

Bungalow Bill

Why i am I a wannabe, Nero???
You did not address this.
I have just reviewed the entire thread. The original comment i made in people being "brainwashed by the internet" was made justifiably. Some guy came out with the same crap that people always say about triple H. The fact of the matter is that he does not write his own storylines, he can not come back to the ring without doctor's clearance and you or hanza or anybody don't know any better. You have absolutley no insider knowledge except for the rumours on wrestling rumour sites. That is what got me annoyed in the first place. That is why I felt perfectly justified in making the comment that i did. The comment was silly and i had heard it a thousand times, each time with little to no basis.
Why isn't there the same backlash at lesnar who has been in the title picture for a very long time then????
And also, i did not bring your parents into it, i know absolutely nothing about you, it was a figure of speech that was in return to your "wannabe" comment.

NeroTheExtreme

Originally posted by Bungalow Bill
Why i am I a wannabe, Nero???
You did not address this.
I have just reviewed the entire thread. The original comment i made in people being "brainwashed by the internet" was made justifiably. Some guy came out with the same crap that people always say about triple H. The fact of the matter is that he does not write his own storylines, he can not come back to the ring without doctor's clearance and you or hanza or anybody don't know any better.


And the fact that you're a massive HHH fan, despite the fact that his act has been stale for the last two years has nothing to do with your burning rage at the minute? Some spare teenage angst to get shot of?


You have absolutley no insider knowledge except for the rumours on wrestling rumour sites. That is what got me annoyed in the first place. That is why I felt perfectly justified in making the comment that i did. The comment was silly and i had heard it a thousand times, each time with little to no basis.
Why isn't there the same backlash at lesnar who has been in the title picture for a very long time then????

Lesnar has dropped the belt and put Angle over twice in a year, more than what HHH did for his so called friend, Michaels. Triple H dropped the belt to Goldberg due to an injury, and showed up on RAW the next night claiming to take a hike, then came on the following week on a Tron. Defend that crap all you want, it pissed EVERYONE off, including HHH fans! And then he had the balls two months later to eventually admit that he was "probably" over-exposed

I never claimed to have any insider knowledge. I have the same resources as everyone else on this board, so slam that at anyone else that has bitched about your precious game! :P

And also, i did not bring your parents into it, i know absolutely nothing about you, it was a figure of speech that was in return to your "wannabe" comment.

You still got personal, you're the ignorant one here mate. One comment about your precious Triple H and you light on everyone with your "brainwashed by the internet" comment. Tarring us all like we've no mind and we believe everything we read. Cop yourself on. And when you're done, give daddy back his PC while you get your nappy changed!

Now we're even.
Nero

Exit

Originally posted by Bungalow Bill
The fact of the matter is that he does not write his own storylines, he can not come back to the ring without doctor's clearance and you or hanza or anybody don't know any better. You have absolutley no insider knowledge...

But neither do you either.

Bungalow Bill

First of all Nero, in the first instance I was only referring to this one guy until you and Hanza got involved. I amn't even a massive Triple H fan! Where you got this from I do not know. I am just sick of people jumping on bandwagons like the one one you are on about tripleH being this egomaniac who writes his own storylines! Get it into your mind that he doesn't decide who he "puts over" or whatever, Vince obviously isn't stupid and he would not keep someone at the top who is apparantly doing everything in his power to ruin the company!

Oh and "give daddy back his p.c.", a cheap comment that is just silly. Maybe you should take your own advice and actually get off your computer for once and believe it or not the world does not revolve around this message board. You have absolutely no idea what age I am so cut the comments. I am far better able to articulate myself than you shall ever be nero!

smiaras

This post has been deleted.

Bungalow Bill

Smiaras, I never intended this to happen, i simply gave out about some clown regurgitating clichés about HHH and these losers got on my back and I felt I had to defend myself.Apologies.

Cianan2

I think the fact that we're still talking about HHH (negative or positive) means his heel character is coming along just how they(the WWE) want it.

LanceStorm

A friend of mine, a very obsessive Triple H fan, always claims that his character is so good that he makes us belive that he really does have stroke with Vince, and he makes us hate him that bit more than any other heel!!

I always responded that it was ****e!!

Maybe I was wrong, no matter what board in the world you go on, Triple H is being discussed!! I know its never ever good comments but, as they say!!

There's no such thing as bad publicity!!

NeroTheExtreme

Originally posted by Bungalow Bill

Oh and "give daddy back his p.c.", a cheap comment that is just silly. Maybe you should take your own advice and actually get off your computer for once and believe it or not the world does not revolve around this message board. You have absolutely no idea what age I am so cut the comments. I am far better able to articulate myself than you shall ever be nero!

Er, who said life revolved around this board? Why do you think the post was delayed? But i'll give you the last word, you're one of those last word freako-beasts anyway and you proved it. Relish in it

Nero