Question concerning the Headscarf issue....

bonkey

Here's one that I heard mentioned in passing over the weekend that I can't get out of my head...

The French government is banning Muslim head-coverings as part of its "no overt religious symbols in schools" move.

What about beards?

Isn't it the Muslim religion (or some sects thereof at least) which say that men should never shave? By the same token that the headscarf can be an outward sign of religion, so can the beard.

Will the French government also mandate that all male students must be clean-shaven???

jc

Manach

Well I think is the Sikhs who must not cut their beards.

I guess the act would only say the beard should go if it was a religious symbol and not if it was say a fashion statement.

Then again, how many school goers grown beards?

bonkey

Originally posted by Manach
Well I think is the Sikhs who must not cut their beards.

That rings a bell....

I guess the act would only say the beard should go if it was a religious symbol and not if it was say a fashion statement.

Yup, but where is the line drawn? Only Sikh males (taking the above as being true) would be prevented from having beards?

Then again, how many school goers grown beards?

It only needs one.

jc

Klaus

They're also banning jewish skull caps and large christian crosses. The idea really doesn't seem to have a definate line that is strictly enforceable.

Seems more of a reactionary response towards growing religious persecution in french schools than anything to do with notions of the separation of church and state

mr_angry

We were banned from growing beards in my old school too. Not on religious grounds, but it was easily enforcable. I wouldn't be surprised if many French schools also had this rule already.

We were banned from having long hair aswell. God, I was SO repressed!

bdiddy

French schools are very easy-going at the best of times, i think this rule is stupid. People should be allowed practice thier religions to a certain degree. If a religions Sabbath falls on a Friday for example then this should be accomadated in school and work( provided it is not an unreasonable strain). Irish people should realise from history that discrimination amongst religions is to be avoided at all costs.


P.s. I don't think this was a intentionally discriminatory but it has turned out that way.

jesus_thats_gre

Originally posted by mr_angry
We were banned from growing beards in my old school too. Not on religious grounds, but it was easily enforcable. I wouldn't be surprised if many French schools also had this rule already.

We were banned from having long hair aswell. God, I was SO repressed!

The same school had a ban on any headware, boots and fellas shaving their head completely. If the school rules dictate that no one can wear any headwear whatsoever, religion should not be an issue. Its a simplistic view but people are making something out of nothing.

Sparks

This just passed the french parliment vote, 494 to 36...

Sand

The French arent the only ones passing laws against the headscarf. Way back in 1998 a woman in Germany was banned from taking a post as a teacher as she wore a headscarf. She argued in a 5 year court case that it was her right to wear te headscarf. She won, but the court also said there was nothing stopping laws being passed by German states to ban the wearing of the headscarf. So thats what theyre doing . Except this law is wholly aimed at the muslim headscarf, not at religious symbols in general. At least theyre being honest. Next thing you know theyll be .... ah Ill leave that for the more hysterically inclined.

Do religions consider beards to be religious symbols or just the result of guides to "a good life" as laid down by all religious, like only eating kosher food, fasting during lent, giving to charity and so on? If they do consider them religious then I guess the French government will be forced to break into peoples houses every morning and drag them kicking and screaming to the bathroom mirror. Or turn it over to the private sector and get Gilette and so on to sponsor it, like those charity gigs where people get their head shaved or their beard.

Victor

I think something like this could backfire with children being enroled in Muslim schools instead of state schools.

Now if only they'd ban make-up in their schools, they might get some support from the Muslim community.

uberwolf

Originally posted by bdiddy
provided it is not an unreasonable strain

what is reasonable and what is unreasonable? My understanding of the french situ is that they have decided that as a nation they are entitled to prioritise their wishes over an immmigrant populations.

If this view is near right then a friday sabbath would be unreasonable as it would require further adjustment by businesses already losing one day due to christian sabbath, another due to jewish sabbath, etc. As a nation they have agreed that the needs of the citizens dominate. I have no issue with that

*business wishes are far from the only view point and is used to illustrate

BuffyBot

TBH I think it is quite fair for state education facilities to demand this kind of behaviour from their pupils. I would have a problem if it wasn't being applied equally across all religions

Victor

Originally posted by BuffyBot
TBH I think it is quite fair for state education facilities to demand this kind of behaviour from their pupils. I would have a problem if it wasn't being applied equally across all religions

However, when it targets one religion more than others...

BuffyBot

However, when it targets one religion more than others...

I don't think the French are targetting one over the other. The Muslim population seem to feel that they are, but I don't think that is the intention.

uberwolf

Whats more can the French not have rules for France?

sanvean

Originally posted by Victor
However, when it targets one religion more than others...

I would say that it doesn't target more than one religion. it just so happens that the muslim religion pervades far more than christianity regarding acceptable clothing. therefore this is what is highlighted in the legal documents regarding overt religiosity.

there are better examples of discrimination against a religion that the muslims demonstrating outside the french embassy in ireland could've chosen. saudi arabia springs to mind, although i presume this would be lost on them.

Klaus

Originally posted by uberwolf
Whats more can the French not have rules for France?

Think there's plenty of reason to still debate the issue though. Many countries' goverments or even the public make decisions that may be harmful to minority groups of citizens, or even majority groups. Just think of the election of the freedom party to goverment in Austria, that resulted in the EU threatening their ejection from the community.

While I don't think that this legislation is as important an issue as they emergence of the far right in some european countries as electoral forces, but it is all the same a worrying development. There is always that if this works in France, then maybe they'll bring it to the EU.

mr_angry

In fairness to the EU's stance on Austria - they stepped in because Jorg Heinrich effectively held the majority party to ransom in order to have himself made Prime Minister. There were mass demonstrations in the streets because only 2% of the population had voted for his party. Not exactly democracy.

I really don't see how this law discriminates against Muslims in particular.

uberwolf

Originally posted by Klaus
Think there's plenty of reason to still debate the issue though. Many countries' goverments or even the public make decisions that may be harmful to minority groups of citizens, or even majority groups.

absolutely, I would contend though that as a nation they are entitled to express any level of comfort or discomfort with developments within their borders and furthermore act on it. And if immigrants don't like this they can leave. If they choose to live somewhere they should respect local wishes just as westeners are forced to do in the east.

this is a one off story but in someway serves to illustrate a point. A girl I worked with for the summer had been in France on erasmus for the previous year. One evening she was heading home and noticed she was being followed. The chap following her seemed to be "fiddling" with himself. Perhaps unwisely she confronted him as being followed and stared at was not uncommon behaviour by the local muslim men (she was a red head - they're not that common). Anyway your man's response to a polite request to abstain from publically masturbating over her was met with "as you're a woman I'm entitled to as I wish with you". Now everychance this chap was just a weirdo, but his justification is the principle reason I've picked up on that the French are changing things. The muslim treatment of women doesn't appear to conform to the western standard. As they're now in the west they should respect western wishes, even if that is a more liberal approach.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by uberwolf
The muslim treatment of women doesn't appear to conform to the western standard.

Are you just basing this on the behaviour of one weirdo a friend of yours encountered, or do you actually know Muslim people?
Also, I'm not sure if you're trying to imply that Muslim women wear scarfs because they're forced to or something. If you are, then that is (generally speaking) wrong. And in the cases where they are dictated to on what to wear (Iran, Saudi Arabia) that is down to the governing bodies in the country, not Islam as a religion.

uberwolf

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
Are you just basing this on the behaviour of one weirdo a friend of yours encountered, or do you actually know Muslim people?

no on both counts, more an impression from over the years. I'm completely open to correction.

Also, I'm not sure if you're trying to imply that Muslim women wear scarfs because they're forced to or something. If you are, then that is (generally speaking) wrong. And in the cases where they are dictated to on what to wear (Iran, Saudi Arabia) that is down to the governing bodies in the country, not Islam as a religion. [/B]

on whose authority to the governing bodies decide this?

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by uberwolf
no on both counts, more an impression from over the years. I'm completely open to correction.

There are non Muslim men who have a pretty low opinion of women, so maybe you shouldn't make a sweeping statement about an entire religion.

on whose authority to the governing bodies decide this?

Their own authority, what are you trying to get at exactly?

uberwolf

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
There are non Muslim men who have a pretty low opinion of women, so maybe you shouldn't make a sweeping statement about an entire religion.

accepted.

however by western standards men and women are not equal citizens in muslim countries. Personally I would deem demands that they wear scarves or hadjibs (sp) discrimanatory. French law demands equality. Ergo no scarves.

Their own authority, what are you trying to get at exactly?

shari'a (sp) law, I believe its called. Law based on religion. Making it standard in muslim countries (their choice) but allowing exportation to foreign countries in religious grounds. Its all based on a 2 line excerpt from the koran anyway, which - I believe - is very open to interpretation

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by uberwolf
Personally I would deem demands that they wear scarves or hadjibs (sp) discrimanatory. French law demands equality. Ergo no scarves.

Most muslim women chose to wear the scarfs, they don't deem it discrimantory so why should you or the French government?

shari'a (sp) law, I believe its called. Law based on religion. Making it standard in muslim countries (their choice) but allowing exportation to foreign countries in religious grounds. Its all based on a 2 line excerpt from the koran anyway, which - I believe - is very open to interpretation

Sharia law is law as given in the Quran.
I'm not sure what you're saying here, what is "it" and what is allowed to be exported?

bonkey

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
Most muslim women chose to wear the scarfs, they don't deem it discrimantory so why should you or the French government?

For a man cautioning others about making sweeping generalisations, I assume you have some source to back this sweeping generalisation of your own up with??

jc

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by bonkey
For a man cautioning others about making sweeping generalisations, I assume you have some source to back this sweeping generalisation of your own up with??

jc

I don't think I have a link to an survey questioning the entire female muslim population on the planet.
I know some muslim people, does that count? Everyone else who has decided that the women are being descrimated against haven't exactly backed that up either.

uberwolf

I think I'm saying that the fact that something is law in muslim countries because of religion doesn't mean that it should be accepted in another country on religious grounds or otherwise. Even if, as you say, muslim women wear hadjib's happily the french don't deem it part of a school uniform. which is a decision they're entitled to make.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by uberwolf
which is a decision they're entitled to make.

I don't agree with it or see why they're making such a big deal out of it, but you're right there.

bonkey

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
I know some muslim people, does that count?

Well, you questioned the validity of a source because it was based on the experiences of one person.

Is your "some Muslim people" any more reliable a cross-section of the massive number of cultures and nations where one finds Islam?

Everyone else who has decided that the women are being descrimated against haven't exactly backed that up either.

True. You, however, were the only one I saw cautioning others about making sweeping statements whilst apparently making sweeping statements to the same extent.

I wanted to see if thats what you were doing or if you actually had anything to support your sweeping generalisation to make it somehow more valid than the type of statment you were advising/encouraging others not to make.

Apparently not.

jc

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by bonkey
Is your "some Muslim people" any more reliable a cross-section of the massive number of cultures and nations where one finds Islam?

It's a little more reliable than basing it on common misconceptions people have about the religion don't you think?
I'm not saying that because I know Muslim people that I'm an authority, I also don't think that saying most practising Muslim women choose to wear the head scarf is a baseless generalisation, it's a fact.

bonkey

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
I also don't think that saying most practising Muslim women choose to wear the head scarf is a baseless generalisation, it's a fact.

Well, if its a fact, and you know its a fact, then you should have no problem supplying us with the basis on which this fact was founded?

Otherwise, it most certainly is not a fact - or, at least, you have no way of knowing whether it is a fact or not.

The reason I'm making a point of this is because you slapped someone for making a sweeping generalisation. I've no problem with that - the rules do ask opinion to be presented as fact, sweeping generalisations are rarely (if ever) facts, and the one in question was not presented explicitly as an opinion.

But by the same token, I am asking you to either provide the basis for your so-called fact or accept that it is no more than another sweeping generalisation of the same type that you have suggested other people should not make.

I don't see where the problem is...all I'm asking is that you apply the same standards to your own posts as you are suggesting others do with theirs.

jc