Question concerning the Headscarf issue....

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by bonkey
But feel free to prove me wrong by providing me with the basis for your fact.

It's in the Quran, it's part of their religious beliefs.
If someone mentioned a Catholic making the sign of the cross would they have to link to that too?

Frank Grimes

Ok, (as far as I know), the basis that vast majority of practising Muslim women wear the scarf is because of what is said in Chapter 24, verse 31 of the Quran.

bug

I thought the basis of uniform and uniformity in schools was to minimise distraction and to instill discipline?If it is a non-denominational school I dont see what the problem is with banning ALL religious symbols.

Im not sure what the precise symbolism of the head scarf is to muslem women and by asking them to remove it what it implies to them, has it a huge implication it is bascially insulting ?

Being a catholic if someone asked me to remove a cross in school, which was possible, considering there was no jewelery aloud of any description, it was done.(I went to a convent school).

Religion is a personal thing and a private thing in my opinion and has no place in schools, unless of course you wish to send your child to a specific school which incorporates religious instruction into the curriculum. thats my view. Hard times-charles dickens, all the way

bonkey

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
It's in the Quran, it's part of their religious beliefs.

And that means that the vast majority of women automatically agree with it and choose to obey it. Really?

It is part of my religious beliefs (being nominally Catholic) that it is wrong to have sex outside marriage. Do you believe that the majority of Catholics support this notion....purely on the basis that its a part of their religion?

Do you believe that the majority of Catholics are opposed to contraception??? Thats part of the declared stances of their religion too, but I think you'll find that the majority of Catholic (or predominantly Catholic) nations have legalised all of these ,and they are availed of by far greater

If someone mentioned a Catholic making the sign of the cross would they have to link to that too?

See my above comments. I'm not talking about whether or not they do it....I'm asking whether or not they choose to do it.

Its clear that a majority (although I wouldn't be sure of how large a majority) of Muslim women wear the hajib (or use some other form of covering).....but it is far from clear that the vast majority choose it which is what you claimed, and which you still haven't supplied any credible evidence for.

jc

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by bonkey
Its clear that a majority (although I wouldn't be sure of how large a majority) of Muslim women wear the hajib (or use some other form of covering).....but it is far from clear that the vast majority choose it which is what you claimed, and which you still haven't supplied any credible evidence for.

I have said practising muslim women in other posts (if I haven't I have been referring to practising Muslims).
Practising Muslims subscribe to what is said in the Quran.
I have given the Chapter and Verse which (I am almost sure) refers to women covering themselves.
If they are practising Muslims they are chosing to cover to themselves as per their beliefs.

uberwolf

Originally posted by uberwolf
principle reason I've picked up on The muslim treatment of women doesn't appear

I certainly intented that the above made it clear that I was expressing an opinion and not fact.

Victor

Originally posted by bug
I thought the basis of uniform and uniformity in schools was to minimise distraction and to instill discipline?If it is a non-denominational school I dont see what the problem is with banning ALL religious symbols.

I don't think many French schools wear uniforms.

Originally posted by bug
Im not sure what the precise symbolism of the head scarf is to muslem women and by asking them to remove it what it implies to them, has it a huge implication it is bascially insulting ?

It is seen as a piece of modesty wear and is worn by women and girls after puberty. Muslim women also see it as a way of avoiding the "degernerate" western culture of "image" - make-up, diets, fashion & fads (some parts of shopping centres in Saudi Arabia are set aside for women and children only, where the women can wear what they like). Some Christians would see even a modest one-piece swimsuit as immodest, nevermind a string bikini. http://www.wholesomewear.com/page-4.html

Originally posted by bug
Being a catholic if someone asked me to remove a cross in school, which was possible, considering there was no jewelery aloud of any description, it was done.(I went to a convent school).

I think there is a difference between a cross which is an actual symbol and a plain head scarf.

Originally posted by bug
Religion is a personal thing

So why prevent people from practicing in their own way?

halkar

This has been a long running issue in Turkey which is a Muslim country and girls not allowed to wear headscarf in schools. Which is a big debate there and still going on and protests and usual EU's bla bla about being against human rights stuff and now it is happening in France eventually in other EU countries maybe :rolleyes:

bug

some good points there victor...I can understand where you are coming from. Taking the issue in relations to schools, and how one wishes their children to be raised and instructed/taught.
As you say...

Originally posted by bug
Religion is a personal thing

So why prevent people from practicing in their own way?.

well the issue is that wearing of religious symbols is supposedly provoking/inciting hatred, so ppl practising it "in their own way" seems to be causing problems, which is possibly why the french government adressed it in the first place.
whether they are dealing with it correctly is another thing.
Maybe teaching tolerance and understanding of different religions in schools is perhaps the way forward rather than banning symbols outright.
But would parents agree to this would a muslim mother agree to her child being taught about christianity,its history etc?
I personally see religion as a "personal thing" and I dont see its position in schools, unless of course a particular school has that on its agenda/curriculum.

It is seen as a piece of modesty wear and is worn by women and girls after puberty. Muslim women also see it as a way of avoiding the "degernerate" western culture of "image" - make-up, diets, fashion & fads (some parts of shopping centres in Saudi Arabia are set aside for women and children only, where the women can wear what they like). Some Christians would see even a modest one-piece swimsuit as immodest, nevermind a string bikini. http://www.wholesomewear.com/page-4.html

..thats interesting, so its a cultural symbol too and one that is worn in opposition to "degernerate western culture" so its not really just a headscarf, I can see how that could be seen as offensive to kids sitting in a class with someone who is wearing a symbol that openly defies their culture. I wonder if I would get away with walking around some area in Iran "openly defying" their culture swinging my blonde (dyed) hair like something in a loreal ad, hypothetically. No i wouldnt want to insult them. I'm being the devils advocate here. .

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by bug
thats interesting, so its a cultural symbol too and one that is worn in opposition to "degernerate western culture" so its not really just a headscarf, I can see how that could be seen as offensive to kids sitting in a class with someone who is wearing a symbol that openly defies their culture.

The reason Muslim women (i.e. most practising Muslim women) wear it is nothing to do with opposistion of Western culture, it's for religious reasons.
I'm sure some Muslim women who live in the West would view their wearing it as above, but for the most part it's religious.

bug

originally posted by victor Muslim women also see it as a way of avoiding the "degernerate" western culture of "image" - make-up, diets, fashion & fads (some parts of shopping centres in Saudi Arabia are set aside for women and children only, where the women can wear what they like).

Im going off to find the actual representation/meaning of the headscarf.:rolleyes:

http://www.alislam.org/quran/tafseer/?page=717&region=EN
found it. thank you frank.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by bug
Im going off to find the actual representation/meaning of the headscarf.:rolleyes:

I posted where it is in the Quran earlier in this thread, the interpretation was taken from there.

Victor

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
The reason Muslim women (i.e. most practising Muslim women) wear it is nothing to do with opposistion of Western culture, it's for religious reasons. I'm sure some Muslim women who live in the West would view their wearing it as above, but for the most part it's religious.

I suppose this is where there is a blur between culture and religion. While many people would frown at the scantily clad 17 years olds outside the Wesley disco in Donnybrook, it would be enough to start a riot if they paraded themselves in the same way in some Muslim countries. At the same time wearing a swim suit or indeed being nude on a Spanish beach might be considered perfectly acceptable.

Also I'm not saying they wear headscaves to go against Western culture, but because their own culture endorses modesty, whereas Western culture permits much greater individuality and the corresponding immodesty of some.

Religion frames culture and culture frames religion.

lili

oops! i missed this thread:)

well, difficult debate... in a side the individual freedom and in another side the respect of domestic laws country, land of immigration.

first i would like to say that the laicity of french school never caused problemes until 3 or 4 years. means something has changed in the mentality of people.

personately, i think the headscarf is a violation of women rights. but i can understand that some muslim girls wear it for cultural reasons. i just find too bad that for this reasons, those girls don't follow sport, biology cours. i think it's also funny that this symbol is seen as a freedom one. i had the opportunity to go on moroccan beaches, it's quite sad to see those women completly weared, carying of the kids, while the husbands take good time swimming in swimming suit.

this renforcement law has a political reason, maybe those teen girls have good reason to protest, but what is worring is which sort of muslim faction is supporting them in france. that's unacceptable for a non muslim state. france is a democracy and obviously the french want keep the laicity in schools. religion freedom is perfectly respected in france, outside of school place people are totally free to pratrice as they want. religions and what the humans did with it are teached in history cours. the good part, what religions is supposed to teach is let at each confession outside school.
i think the best, would be to have in civil cours, a part allowed at the knowledge of other cultures and religions.

Victor

Sorry for dragging this up again. I found it interesting that bandannas were mentioned in the article - it's a possible opt-out that should keep most people happy.

(Sikhs never cut their hair and turbans are to keep the hair tidy / clean and cover their heads).

http://www.breakingnews.ie/2004/05/17/story148058.html

Turbans banned from schools in new French law
17/05/2004 - 21:09:12

Sikh schoolboys must exchange their turbans for a hair net when a new law banning religious apparel in France’s public schools takes effect in September.

The Sikh community was shocked today when Education Minister Francois Fillon made the announcement.

He also confirmed Muslim girls can only wear bandannas in schools that allow them, according to the minister.

Fillon spoke after education officials adopted – with some misgivings – a set of guidelines to help school officials apply the law, which was enacted in March after a marathon parliament debate.

The law forbids conspicuous religious symbols and attire in the classroom such as the Jewish skull cap and large Christian crosses, but it is chiefly aimed at the Muslim head scarf.

Fillon said later that an “arrangement” had been made with Sikhs to replace the traditional head gear with hair nets.

“We’ve come up with an arrangement,” Fillon said. “They accept wearing a hair net. It’s less aggressive, less showy,” he said.

Representatives of the small Sikh community of 5,000-7,000 said they were unaware of any such arrangement. On the contrary, they said, Sikh representatives had received a letter from a counsellor to Prime Minister Jean-Pierre Raffarin, dated May 10, that provided “conditional assurance” that Sikh boys could wear turbans in class.

“We were told that we could wear turbans because we never posed a problem,” said Karmvir Singh, a Paris member of United Sikhs, expressing surprise.

“A hair net has no place and no meaning,” said the director of United Sikhs, Hardyal Singh, based in New York. “It’s appalling,” he added.

The school guidelines go beyond attire to forbid students from refusing certain courses – like physical education or biology – for religious reasons or rejecting professors based on their gender.

The guidelines also forbid absences for religious reasons beyond major holidays.

The new law is aimed at safeguarding the French principle of secularism, considered under threat by Muslim’s growing militancy over their identity and the practice by some girls of wearing head scarves to school.

arcadegame2004

"There were mass demonstrations in the streets because only 2% of the population had voted for his party." (Me angry)

Mr angry, the Freedom Party actually got 27% of the Austrian vote at the time of the crisis you are referring to. Also, Joerg Haider was NEVER the Austrian Prime Minister. Wolfgang Schussel of the Austrian Peoples' Party became Chancellor (Prime Minister) of Austria. Joerg Haider resigned as Freedom Party leader in farmer of Susanne Reiss-Passer. Just correcting you there.

I personally disagree with this move by the French Government. It plays into the hands of Al-Qaeda who are already using it to promote their portrayal of the West as an "oppressor of Muslims" - by which they mean ALL of the West, including Europe (not just Israel or the United States), e.g. there has already been an Al-Qaeda threat of bringing "remorse" to France unless they repeal the ban. I understand and support the idea of a secular state but this is religious oppression, which crosses the line between secularism and oppression in my view.

Wrestlemania

I am not to keen on the Islamic Relgion but I believe people should be allowed practice there relgion and their faith be respect weither it be Jew, Muslim, Gentile or whatever.

A head scarf it not going to do any harm it is a tradition and should be respected.

I understand school rules, I had very strict ones but were there for a reason this ban is not a viable reason and will cause resentment within the French and Wider Islamic Community.

pork99

Originally posted by arcadegame2004
I understand and support the idea of a secular state but this is religious oppression, which crosses the line between secularism and oppression in my view.

Absolutely. I'm a secular humanist atheist but I find the French ban on headscarfs etc fairly offensive.

Among the core values of Western Democracy are freedom of expression and civil and religious liberty. The repression of peoples free expression of their beliefs belongs in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia.

In Saudi Arabia it's not just illegal for a Saudi citizen to be a non-Muslim, it's illegal not to be a Wahhabi Muslim. In Iran followers of the Bahhai religion have been tortured to death for converting from Islam. I've seen videos of people in Iran having hands cut off and one man being blinded for "looking at something immoral". Thank f*** I don't live in a society like those.

lili

i think you missed the point here. it's not a question of individual freedom. it's a political question.

bonkey

Originally posted by pork99
Absolutely. I'm a secular humanist atheist but I find the French ban on headscarfs etc fairly offensive.

Among the core values of Western Democracy are freedom of expression and civil and religious liberty. The repression of peoples free expression of their beliefs belongs in countries like Iran and Saudi Arabia.

So do you support the rights of Satanists to openly worship and bear symbols of their religion?

jc

pork99

Originally posted by bonkey
So do you support the rights of Satanists to openly worship and bear symbols of their religion?

jc

Yes, as long as human sacrifice or child abuse is not involved they have the same rights as anyone else.

Besides how does anyone know that as Christians or Muslims they are not worshipping Satan? Maybe Satan and God are two manifestations of the same entity? Maybe it's all made up by people who went off and lived in caves and had halucinations due to sensory deprivation which they believed to be the voice of God? (It's the latter isn't it?)

i think you missed the point here. it's not a question of individual freedom. it's a political question.

political systems which value individual freedom v political systems which do not surely a very political question?

bonkey

Originally posted by pork99
Yes, as long as human sacrifice or child abuse is not involved they have the same rights as anyone else.

Drug taking? Rastafarians see this as part of their religious observance, yes? Should they be permitted to do this? If so, then why should the rest of us be not also allowed?

If they shouldn't, then surely all you're doing is arguing that its okay to discriminate against some religious requirements, but not against others, based on nothing more than existing social behaviour.

Do you think, also, there is nothing wrong with teachers wearing religious attire in non-denominational schools? No conflict of interest?

jc

pork99

Originally posted by bonkey
Drug taking? Rastafarians see this as part of their religious observance, yes? Should they be permitted to do this? If so, then why should the rest of us be not also allowed?

The rest of us should be allowed. I believe that cannabis should come under similiar laws to those in force for alcohol and tobacco

Do you think, also, there is nothing wrong with teachers wearing religious attire in non-denominational schools? No conflict of interest?

jc

As long as they don't teach wankology such as "creation science", no problem. I'd be far more concerned about that than whether they wearing a cloth over their head or a crucifix around their neck.

tall_freak

I think the main point that upsets the french and the global islamic community is the following....

this new law bans christians wearing large crosses... but we all know that the christian faith dont wear this to school... they contend themselves with wearing small ones on the necklace... so in a way it doesnt target them....

jews dont wear there skull cap to school either.. it would be more of a religious thing... so it doesnt target them either

but muslim girls do wear thier hijabs to school.. so u can say they were singled out

initially the french govt proposed that to balance the act they would declare eid a school holiday... however when they dropped the plan it didnt go well with the muslim community

all the above combined does come across to the muslim community as being unfair and specifically targeting them.....

i myself am an arab... i lived in UAE, lebanon and syria...

in all these communities people wear the hijab cause they want to.. not cause theyre forced to... also a large portion of the population dont,... no one bothers them ... and the hijab is never seen as a symbol of opression... nuns cover thier hair and no one bothers them... in the jewish faith women cant show thier hair... that why the relgious jewish women wear a wig.. no one bothers them

so why do people target muslim women when they choose to practice their faith and wear a hijab???

the only arabic country that inforces the hijab is saudi... and im against that...

in a way i think france is bringing itself down to saudis level by refusing girls the right to practice thier religon freely