single male,19, seeks critical review of Watchmen

the raven

i am flumoxed and floundered by the posts that read "watchmen ain't great".
i just can't understand and i'm usually open to a persons' alternate tastes etc...
so i invite you to come forth, those deprived of the love for watchmen, and tell me what it is about the story that rubs ye wrong. cheers in advance.

lordsippa

Erm... I loved Watchmen but I can already see the most common argument against it... "But Jon..." <sigh>

The_Goose

this may be hounded by insults but whats watchmen!

the raven

watchmen is a twelve issue mini-series released in the 80's, written by alan moore.

it starts out about the murder of a retired super hero - the Comedian.

the main characters are Rorschach- a demented anti-hero, the owl-guy (er.. i forgot his name, dammit! "owl man" maybe), owl-mans's girlfriend, the daughter of one o the super-heroines of the Comedian's old group, john - the big blue perfect specimen of man and... uh... i think thats it.

so owl-man and his gf start investigating these murders...

read it!!! imho its one of the greatest comics ever written.
its so engaging and convoluted and... ya, even believable at times... (and the sub-plot, and the sub-text, and subtlety throughout, and the clues in every panel you'd so easily overlook!!!)
its a totally different super-hero story, with an ending you'd never expect.
the trade is inexpensive and worth every penny. i reccommend it to all.

Fysh

Name was Night Owl...he was sort of the Batman/Iron Man character...

Ah, Watchmen. Damn fine comic. I got my trade for about 18 euro, I think, which was more than reasonable.

In my experience the people who don't like Watchmen tend to be more straightforward superhero fans to whom the more complex stories that comics like Watchmen or Sandman offer don't appeal. Maybe that's just me though...

monkeymagic

I'd tend to place Sandman above Watchmen in the best comic ever stakes, Gaimen having written something decent since 1995. That and his weaving of mythologies and storylines brought more depth to comics than obscure references to magic or arcane 19th Century literature. It also helped establish Vertigo as a mature readers line and so probably did more for comcis and has had a more lasting effect on comics than Watchmen will ever have. Without Sandman would there be a Preacher/100 Bullets/Y the Last Man/Human Target?

Fysh

Well, remembering the intro from "Preludes and Nocturnes" I seem to recall that Gaiman wanted to work on Hellblazer to start with, but they already had Jamie Delano doing the first few issues. Gaiman went away and then started work on reinventing the Sandman character.

Gaiman's Sandman is probably the best comic series I've ever read. But I would never say that it single-handedly revolutionised comics. It created a furore, particulary with the whole literary award fiasco, but if Sandman had never happened there still would have been people wanting to push boundaries.

What about Transmetropolitan? Or Johnny the Homicidal Maniac? Or, going back earlier, Give Me Liberty? Or Dark Knight Returns? Or, indeed, Watchmen? All these works are comics, but none of them are simple "look at the pretty pictures" stories.

I mean, given Miller's work in the 80's and on Sin City, it's safe to assume that he was quite happy to push boundaries in any case. And Sin City would have influenced people to create stuff like 100 Bullets. Similarly, I think Hellblazer would (and has) inspired people to deal with similar ideas. Gaiman evidently liked the character, given what we see of him in the original Books of Magic. Other people like him just as much, to the extent that the character has been borrowed unofficially several times (at least, if you believe the information contained on
this page). And then there's undoubtedly many other comics which I haven't yet read.

In summary, extremely influential and generally fantastic? Yes. Singlehandedly bringing about the revolution? Not quite.

lordsippa

And lo! The tangents...

Back on the original point... erm... people probably didn't like the bit about the owls... y'know the bit I'm talking about...

monkeymagic

actually i merely meant that Sandman allowed Vertigo to continue and gave it a foundation book on which they expanded the line. If i was going to mention mainstream books that were as cutting edge i would have. It didn't revolutionise the industry but it gave Vertigo a lifeline and Mature Readers comics are much needed if the artform is to survive.

Fysh

Hmm. Looks like I totally misinterpreted your post then. Sorry about that.

Also - owls. Yes. Very probably the fact that the second Nite Owl was far too nerdy to be a "normal" superhero put some people off, but that was the whole point, I think. He was meant to counteract the idea of the millionaire genius playboy that we were often presented with in Iron Man and Batman...but there again, maybe I'm reading too much into it.

Duo

Watchmen was awesome. One of the few American comics I would read. Anything by Alan Moore, in fact.

.. um, yeah

plastic membrane

You'd be hard pressed to find someone who hated Watchmen, and actually have a worthwhile opinion on anything. Watchmen is a masterpiece.

Fysh

Having been looking at this thread recently, I started re-reading watchmen the other day...if anything it's even better the more I re-read it. It's just, well, great. The characters, the art (and bear in mind that I tend to not like older comic art, simply because the printing and colour separation techniques used led to overly bright colours), the way the storyline develops (and all its sprawling offshoots and tangents).

I fail to see how anyone can read this and not appreciate its mighty goodness.

Cable

ok so it sounds interesting, but how long is the mini-series and is it possible to get the lot in a single edition or would i have to go hunting them all down (speaking of which, any one know how easy it would be to get a copy, i dont see it on the other relams web site, might call in this weekend and see if theres an old copy lying around)

Draco

You'll only get it in trade paper back. they should have a copy. I doubt there is a comic shop in the world that doesn't.

sixpack's little hat

amazon

well worth the price!


watchmen and Dark Knight returns for 21 sterling is an ok deal

Cable

i'd love to use amazon but i have a slight problem.... lack of credit card!!!!!

cheers draco, might be worth the effort going in for it so

lordsippa

And to answer your other question it's all in one collection. Well worth buying. And if you like it check out V For Vendetta.

Draco

meh. V for Vendetta is something that if I had to wait for it in a serial I would not be arsed with. vaguely interesting from the point of view that england has gone in the predicted fashion without a nuclear war but overall disappointing.

dr_manhattan

Seeing as a flux in reality has enabled myself, Dr Jon Ostermann, to slip into this continuum and reassemble my intrinsic field, I feel it behooves me to put a few facts straight:

1) Superhero/masked avenger characters in watchmen:
Nite Owl and the New Nite Owl (not owl man, dammit!)
Silk Spectre and the new Silk Spectre
Dr_Manhattan (ahem)
The comedian
Rorschach
Ozymandias
Captain Metropolis
Hooded Justice
Dollar Bill
The silhouette
Mothman
Moloch the Mystic

Secondary "civilian" characters not listed.

2) Agreed, the Sandman is great. But Watchmen and other works paved the way for it, utterly: when sandman#1 was released, "adult" classics like watchmen, dark night returns, swamp thing, etc (too many to mention) with layered storylines and innumerable literary references (I mean, every chapter of watchmen is a quote. Tracking all those quotes down is an education in itself) were already dusty on the shelves.

Moore's minor works (even the terrible "skizz") show more mastery of the medium in the early 80s than most writers ever do. IMHO, the only person to even appraoch moore for sheer fluidity and comfort in the medium, is Frank Miller. But he just writes the same story again and again (albeit beautifully) - Moore has pretty much written everything, from bubblegum like "Promethea" to gravitas like "from hell".

So as you say, Sandman paved the way for preacher, 100 bullets, et al. But I have to say that I find these comics, though far from boring, to be *much* less complex, much less embedded in the real world as well as the comics world, and much more like B-Movies (albeit brilliant ones) than giants such as Watchmen: even Terry Gilliam said he couldn't film watchmen wihout damaging it - preaise indeed.

But there again, since I reassembled myself at a subatomic level, I don't read as much comics: maybe I've missed something whilst exploring the universe ;-)

3) V for vendetta ran 4 issues in warrior, then disappeared. the series was picked up years later and I pieced it together as it came out: it's no masterwork, and the first 4 issues are heavily flawed, but I tell you, scenes where a bishop is questioned about transubstantiation and then fed a poisoned communion wafer? Is that not, basically, the entire content of preacher (except, in preacher the bishop would then be gorily shot in the head, or anally penetrated, or nuked, or all of the above?)

It's a solid attempt. Moore was only, what, about 22 at the time? It approaches genius IMHO, but unlike watchcmen, does not take the biscuit. And pardon me, but I don't see any concentration camps in the UK right now? Sure, cameras and police state tactics, but don't exaggerate, LOL

however, moores most recent epic work, "from hell", goes far beyond anything I've ever read in the comics medium. It is, without a doubt, pure ****ing genius. How else can one push comics so far but by making a project that:

a) could not be done in ANY other medium
b) hand stitches reality and fantasy together so lovingly
c) has a narrative that functions as a structure to hang a thesis on
d) looks and feels and *is* so damn awful and horrible

Meanwhile, he cranks out Promethea and Tom strong like writing comics is easy. The old beardy bastard ;-)



Now, as a fictional character, I can't add a whole lot.



But as a real internet posting person: Of course i love watchmen, I grew up on Moore's writing but yes I'd love to read a critique that doesn't like it, cos the idea of not liking it (I'm on my 13th edition, so many people have kept it on loan. People from age 12 to 74 love it) is bizarre to me.

My first tattoo was a 5 inch hydrogen atom (not on my forehead haha), because

"if I shall have a symbol, it shall be something I respect"

And to be honest, i'm surprised that everybody in the whole goddamned world hasn't been legally required to read watchmen (okay, this may be hyperbole lol) but I wait in hope ;-)

anyways, to those here who plan to buy it: I absolutely envy you. You are about to read a masterwork in the field. Follow it up with "from hell", and a dip into his novel "voice of the fire" and I guarantee you will feel as if you have had a brush with a very singular, deeply intelligent man. Crazy as a brush, but even grant morrison pales in pagan eccentric comparison lol

I think my work is done here. Anyways it's very difficult to post on the web whilst viewing all events as a single instant: It is 2004, and I am posting on the web, but in 1957 I am sitting on the bed. Laura is packing, her tears hot with anger. The photograph falls, in ten seconds it lies at my feet. In Brooklyn, the cogs fall. and all that stuff.

;-)

the raven

dr_manhattan, thank you.

i'm actually abstaining from watchmen at the moment so i can forget as much as possible to be once again blown away when i read it again.
i haven't read it since maybe 2001... but i still remember too much goddamnit... (well, i did say "owl-man"!... but now you know why!!)






maybe i should post when i'm not stoned...

plastic membrane

Originally posted by dr_manhattan


I think my work is done here. Anyways it's very difficult to post on the web whilst viewing all events as a single instant: It is 2004, and I am posting on the web, but in 1957 I am sitting on the bed. Laura is packing, her tears hot with anger. The photograph falls, in ten seconds it lies at my feet. In Brooklyn, the cogs fall. and all that stuff.

;-)

Your a bit mad. Your right, but your mad. In a good way, of course.