Garda confidence survey, believable ?

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Zulu
Because the media were expecting trouble from the anarchists after the G8 riots.

...and yet only "Indy"media were there. I wonder why?

Lets not forget, the Gaurds weren't wearing their numbers in this instance - why not? - Because it was premeditated. A premeditated attack on the public.

As, of course, happens every time a group of peaceful protestors take to the streets.

Right?

Sparks

Originally posted by oscarBravo
...and yet only "Indy"media were there. I wonder why?

Actually, they weren't the only media there - after all, this all happened less than a two-minute walk from the Irish Times offices on D'Oiler Street. And there were several journalists walloped about a bit as well, which was a factor in the large press coverage the incident received.

chill

Originally posted by Lemming
My initial reaction was:

SNIPPED ABUSIVE CARTOONS

Abuse doesn't impress me. If you can't stand someone taking an opposing view then try to stick to the same rules I have to stick by.

bonkey

Originally posted by bdiddy
my only comment on this thread is that the whole argument on wheter we have a capable or corrupt police force is been based on the actions of a handful of Gardai on one day whe not even in uniform.

Kappar's post (and others) would tend to disprove what you're saying there.

jc

Lemming

Originally posted by chill
Abuse doesn't impress me. If you can't stand someone taking an opposing view then try to stick to the same rules I have to stick by.

I have no problems with opposing views. I do have a problem with trolls however, which the associated posts by yourself very much appear to be.

Added to some fairly cloud-cuckoo-land commentary and you get my afore-mentioned reaction.

Oh, and what makes you think I'm trying to impress you? Your commentary has left me less than impressed already.

Zulu

---

Lets not forget, the Gaurds weren't wearing their numbers in this instance - why not? - Because it was premeditated. A premeditated attack on the public.

---

"As, of course, happens every time a group of peaceful protestors take to the streets.

Right?"

Oscarbravo, I'm not sure I understand you here, what is your point???

mycroft

and yet only "Indy"media were there. I wonder why?

Indymedia was given footage from two college students who were there with cameras. In fact the cameraman whose stills those images come from was assaulted by a Gardaí and the rest of the images shown the next day on rte, and later on primetime was from the two students.

One Irish Indo (a bastion of left wing subversion) photographer was assaulted arrested and later charged with assaulting a Gardaí (later dropped)

The video footage (uneditted) has been taken by the DPP and is being used in the prosecution of five Gardaí so if it had been staged etc, I think they'd have know about it now and dropped the cases.

Who says only leftwingers can be conspiracy theorists.

Abuse doesn't impress me. If you can't stand someone taking an opposing view then try to stick to the same rules I have to stick by.

And yet you think it's entirely justifibly for the police to kick the crap out of people who's politics you disagree with.

You offer no explaination or justification which proves the police "stopped" a riot before it happened.

bonkey

OK - lets just kick this in the head right here......

The mods have been asked several times to ban people because someone / everyone has decided their trolling.

How many times have you seen us do it?

Just because you cannot believe someone's attitude doesn't make them a troll, and I find this particularly true when it comes to politics.

If chill is willing to civilly discuss/debate his stance, then he can take any stance he likes - same as everyone else. If you think he's a troll, then don't discuss/debate with him. Stop hitting that Reply button.

What always gets me is that its not trolls who break up threads. Its everyone else either telling them they're a troll, or extolling to everyone else that they should ignore the troll. If you think its a troll, don't feed it.

If you don't want to discuss something with someone, there is no-one forcing you to read or reply to their posts......but I will not support banning someone because their stance is universally unpopular, nor do I believe the other mods will.

Now, if anyone has a problem with that policy, I would strongly suggest that you look at the stickied thread for discussing the rules, and bring it up there. This is not the appropriate place.

I would also point out that - as of 16:22 - not one single person has reported any post on this thread.....which is the only action you're supposed to take regarding a post you have a problem with.

jc

chill

Originally posted by Kappar
Well if you read this document you will see evidence that resulted in an independent committee stating that "persons held in certain police establishments in Ireland ran a not inconsiderable risk of being physically ill-treated"

It is clear from this report that the visitors only collected 'reports' and 'claims' of ill-treatment. There was no investigation involved in this visit and no accusations against the Garda. Every day there are all kinds of disreputable thugs that make all kinds of fictitious accusations against the Garda for obvious motives.
In fact the report as a whole was an endorsement of the high standards maintained by the Garda and supports my own views.

Also read the rest of the documents here

This is a library of documents. If you have one that makes a valid point then post it.

I would agree with the CPT's P.O.V. based on personal experience.

This was a report that did not carry out any investigation into any of the allegations made against the Gardai. Their conclusion was essentially an endorsement of the vast majority of Garda behaviour.

chill

Originally posted by Sparks
Yeah. Chill, I know most trolls believe that either
1) It's great fun to troll; or
2) Trolling stimulates conversation.
But in reality, it's just annoying.

I'm not interested in exchanging personal abuse with you. If you have a point to make then make it.,

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Zulu
Oscarbravo, I'm not sure I understand you here, what is your point???

In simple terms: street protests are policed on a routine basis without any of this type of incident. For some reason, a number of gardai attacked this one particular protest, and now it's being held up as somehow typical.

• It's only typical if it happens more often than not.
• How come it's the same type of protests that always seem to get attacked by police everywhere in the world?

I've heard stories of extreme provokation of the police during that event. I don't have a source for them, so I'm not going to try to defend the behaviour of the individuals on the day - but for the reasons stated above, I remain open-minded about the whole incident.

Sparks

Originally posted by chill
I'm not interested in exchanging personal abuse with you. If you have a point to make then make it.,

Very well, my point is that your views are so unsupported by documented fact, and so blatently and obviously incorrect, that no reasonable person who was in any way reasonably informed about the world they live in could maintain them. And since even a cursory search for information (and if you can come here, you can go to www.google.ie ) would provide sufficent evidence that what we're telling you is simple fact, I conclude that you cannot seriously hold those views and must in fact be proposing them for your own amusement.

Kappar

It is clear from this report that the visitors only collected 'reports' and 'claims' of ill-treatment. There was no investigation involved in this visit and no accusations against the Garda. Every day there are all kinds of disreputable thugs that make all kinds of fictitious accusations against the Garda for obvious motives.
In fact the report as a whole was an endorsement of the high standards maintained by the Garda and supports my own views.

No it investigated the claims and they were supported by medical evidence. I refer you to section II A 2 (12) "It should also be noted that, in certain of the cases examined during the visit, other evidence gathered by the CPT’s delegation (e.g. from custody records, information provided by police officers) tended to support the allegations of ill-treatment received." The Garda though didn't continue any investagations which is a deplorable situation. But a situation the CPT can't force the Garda to do. In fact a head guy in the Garda on the Ptime time show said the couldn't invetagte them casue the didn;t know who the were but prime time managed to find out by looking a the reconds for the day in question. Not much investigation in the garda then so.

This is a library of documents. If you have one that makes a valid point then post it.

The Library contains documents that are all published independently by the CPT that all detail abuse within the garda. All the reports are in the same format so if it is evidence that you are after the read all the reports.

This was a report that did not carry out any investigation into any of the allegations made against the Gardai. Their conclusion was essentially an endorsement of the vast majority of Garda behaviour.

It carried out all the investigation it needed for the purposes of the report. I am satisfied with the integrity of the report. I have no reason to believe that the CPT would lie or act without proper skills. If you have contra-beliefs I suggest you find a plausable reason instead of saying that they didn;t invetigate when crearly they did.

Sparks

Originally posted by chill
It is clear from this report that the visitors only collected 'reports' and 'claims' of ill-treatment. There was no investigation involved in this visit and no accusations against the Garda.

In fact chill, the reason that these never went beyond reports and claims of ill-treatment is because there were never any serious investigations begun, because the Gardai do not have any kind of effective internal investigations branch, as we've been saying here for a bit now.
So in effect, you're saying that they're innocent because they didn't investigate. Or, to put it more graphically:

chill

Originally posted by mycroft
Indymedia was given footage from two college students who were there with cameras. In fact the cameraman whose stills those images come from was assaulted by a Gardaí and the rest of the images shown the next day on rte, and later on primetime was from the two students.

I saw all of the video on the news the next day - in my view it showed rioters attacking a tiny number of garda who weren't even kitted out for a riot, which is a disgrace. Clearly the Garda weren't expecting the level of incitement and violence shown by the anarchists. The rest of the images are unreliable as images can be used to suport any view if they are spun that way.

One Irish Indo (a bastion of left wing subversion) photographer was assaulted arrested and later charged with assaulting a Gardaí (later dropped)

Then he should have behaved better. I would put my trust in the Garda that arrested him ahead of any 'photographer'.

And yet you think it's entirely justifibly for the police to kick the crap out of people who's politics you disagree with.

So because you have a thing about the Gardai you think it's ok to abuse anyone who disagrees with you...

You offer no explaination or justification which proves the police "stopped" a riot before it happened.

I have no responsibility to 'prove' the gardai did anything. You are making the accusations against the Gardai. You are smearing our police service and in my opinion it is You that needs to offer the evidence. I see nothing so far.
I am perfectly willing to accept that there are bad apples in the Gardai. I had a run in with one about ten years ago. They are there alright. But it is wrong to smear a whole service of thousands of underpaid and overworked Gardai with the stain of a few.
And I have no association whatsoever, nor have I ever had, with the Gardai or any related service.

mycroft

From the report

"One person interviewed in Cork Prison alleged that, the day before, four or five police officers had dragged him down the stairs at the Anglesea Street police facilities and repeatedly struck him with batons. Following his arrival at Cork, the prison doctor had noted “4 fresh marks on back, prior to committal”. Upon medical examination by the delegation’s doctors, the person concerned was found to display two recent red horizontal bruises measuring approximately 3 x 9 cm, respectively in the left and right upper lumbar/kidney area, and a further similar bruise in the left shoulder region; he also displayed a number of abrasions and smaller bruises on the legs. "

Interesting use of inverted comma's around the word "claim" there chill. Because thats pretty damning.

The fact is we have no effective recourse if confronted with Police brutality or corruption, and without those vital safe guards, corruption and brutality has grown and become unchecked, and rampant.

In the aftermath of the mayday business, a former british police commissioner wrote a short piece in the Irish Times, about the Gardaí he announced he would be "terrified" to go into Gardaí custody, because of the unacountably of the Gardaí.

I've heard stories of extreme provokation of the police during that event. I don't have a source for them, so I'm not going to try to defend the behaviour of the individuals on the day - but for the reasons stated above, I remain open-minded about the whole incident.

Firstly Gardaí are only supposed to strike people in the head with batons when the fear directly for their life or the lifes of others.

Seeing as nobody was injuried and neither were any Gardaí care to explain the reckless abandon which Gardaí crack skulls?

Secondly fine I'm sure there was some name calling etc....But y'know what "the lads just lost the heads a bit", is not a justifible defense. These people are supposed to be trained in crowd control, and considering the abuse they probably get on an average Saturday night, they should be used to it. Thats not a defense.

chill

Originally posted by Sparks
In fact chill, the reason that these never went beyond reports and claims of ill-treatment is because there were never any serious investigations begun, because the Gardai do not have any kind of effective internal investigations branch, as we've been saying here for a bit now.
So in effect, you're saying that they're innocent because they didn't investigate. Or, to put it more graphically:

I'm ignoring the monkey level humour.

I happen to believe in the justice system. You may be happy to assume guilt on people based on an accusation - I am not. The report doesn't accuse the gardai, and they were found guilty of nothing.

It is interesting that you are happy to condemn and smear the gardai based on the word of a few poeple yet you are not willing to accept the word of a Garda on the guilt of others.

A souble standard in my opinion.

Sparks

Originally posted by chill
I'm ignoring the monkey level humour.

Actually, that image isn't humour, anymore than a cross would be considered humour.

I happen to believe in the justice system.

Which is a seperate system to the Gardai.

You may be happy to assume guilt on people based on an accusation - I am not.

I'm not either. I'm also not willing to assume innocence without at least a cursory investigation. But we don't see even that, and so we have no way of determining whether or not the gardai involved are innocent or not - and so we don't trust them because we cannot reasonably do so.

The report doesn't accuse the gardai, and they were found guilty of nothing.

You cannot be found guilty of something without an investigation into the accusation. Once again, it's a case of "Hear no evil, see no evil"...

It is interesting that you are happy to condemn and smear the gardai based on the word of a few poeple yet you are not willing to accept the word of a Garda on the guilt of others.

Actually, I'm not happy doing it. I'd like an honest and trustworthy police force in my country. And it's not a smear. We don't have a trustworthy police force. And that's not someone's opinion I'm basing that on, it's the number of court cases where gardai have been found guilty of crimes while on duty, the number of incidents where there is clearly a need for investigation and reform yet none is seen, the sheer mafiaesque attitude of the Gardai as a group, and the sheer level of abuse involved in these cases.

mycroft

I saw all of the video on the news the next day - in my view it showed rioters attacking a tiny number of garda who weren't even kitted out for a riot, which is a disgrace. Clearly the Garda weren't expecting the level of incitement and violence shown by the anarchists. The rest of the images are unreliable as images can be used to suport any view if they are spun that way.

Then I think you should watch it again. Because if you can point out a single instance of anyone throwing a punch at a kick, that isn't a Gardaí you'll need to pick my jaw of the floor. There isn't one

Then he should have behaved better. I would put my trust in the Garda that arrested him ahead of any 'photographer'.

Pay attention chill. The charges were dropped because they were groundless. In fact no one, read that, no one, arrested by the Gardaí has been prosecuted. And all charges remaining are breaches of the public order act section IV and VI. No one is facing assault on a Gardaí charges. Care to explain that?

So because you have a thing about the Gardai you think it's ok to abuse anyone who disagrees with you...

No essentially you think it was right to kick the snot out of them because you disagree with their politics, you've offered no evidence of any wrong doing by the protests, and the criminal justice system, which you admire so, appears to disagree with your assesment.

I have no responsibility to 'prove' the gardai did anything. You are making the accusations against the Gardai. You are smearing our police service and in my opinion it is You that needs to offer the evidence. I see nothing so far.

The fact that five Gardaí are facing assault charges (and no protestors) from that mayday business. The Morris tribunal which has turned up Gardaí planting explosives, and drugs in donegal, intimidation of witnesses. Not to mention the inspector who yesterday was court over informing someone charges againist them could be dropped for €30,000.

I've plenty of evidence.

Lemming

Originally posted by chill
I'm ignoring the monkey level humour.

How about you start looking at what you're posting chill. It's of the "they can do no wrong" variety. Blinkered and extrordinarily naieve to say the least.

The report doesn't accuse the gardai, and they were found guilty of nothing.

Because not a _SINGLE_ garda on duty that day could recall any other garda who was on duty with them. Hmmmmmmmm. Coincidence?? I think not.

Tell me chill, if I rob a bank, and you cover for me when the police come knocking, what does that make you?

So what happens when the police cover the police? :rolleyes:

And you're conveniently overlooking the implications of the Donegal corruption scandal.

A souble standard in my opinion.

Indeed. "Do as we say not as we do" to form a quote.


Oh, and incidentally I did a simple search on google.ie and came up with A LOT of information, quite a lot of it from official government sources, along with some quoted incidents stretching back into the 1970s for serious far-reaching abuse of garda power.

A simple search ......

bdiddy

Originally posted by mycroft

Pay attention chill. The charges were dropped because they were groundless. In fact no one, read that, no one, arrested by the Gardaí has been prosecuted. And all charges remaining are breaches of the public order act section IV and VI. No one is facing assault on a Gardaí charges. Care to explain that?

One explaination would be that maybe they didnt have enough evidence to convict these protesters and weren't corrupt enough to follow a few other forces leads and convict them anyway to clear thier own names.

The fact that five Gardaí are facing assault charges (and no protestors) from that mayday business. The Morris tribunal which has turned up Gardaí planting explosives, and drugs in donegal, intimidation of witnesses. Not to mention the inspector who yesterday was court over informing someone charges againist them could be dropped for €30,000.

I've plenty of evidence.

Well done, you've obviously got all the facts!! 5 Gardai and no protesters facing charges, that must mean the gaurds are corrupt and protesters are great law abiding citizens. damn those scummy Gardai!!

Zulu

Originally posted by oscarBravo
In simple terms: street protests are policed on a routine basis without any of this type of incident.

Would you consider it typical that they would be in uniform - but without their numbers on display? I understand that this was not exactly the norm for the gaurds - but how can you defend them, when none of them "can remember" who was involved. Clearly some/few gaurds were acting out of order - but covering up and illegal action is also illegal, it "aiding and abetting a know felon". How can we respect them when they act above the law?

Originally posted by oscarBravo

How come it's the same type of protests that always seem to get attacked by police everywhere in the world?[/list]

We're discussing the guards, other police forces are a different story.

Originally posted by oscarBravo

I've heard stories of extreme provokation of the police during that event.

So? They're professionals - thats what they get trained for. That is absolutly no excuse at all. They are PUBLIC servents, their job is to PROTECT the public and the civil rights of the said people.

mycroft

One explaination would be that maybe they didnt have enough evidence to convict these protesters and weren't corrupt enough to follow a few other forces leads and convict them anyway to clear thier own names.

They're facing assault on Gardaí charges and they're surrounded by their fellow officers. No wait, no one could recognise each other when they were asked to identify them off tape.

I put it to you, the Gardaí's lying to the Gardaí Complaints Board, and "inability" to idenitify themselves on camera, means that any case againist protestors would have been laughed out of court by any halfway decent defense lawyer.

The Gardaí's corruption, rank closing, mums the word attitude, killed those cases.

Well done, you've obviously got all the facts!! 5 Gardai and no protesters facing charges, that must mean the gaurds are corrupt and protesters are great law abiding citizens. damn those scummy Gardai!!

Never said that, and don't believe it. But the facts speak for themselves, the only people facing assault charges are Gardaí. Kinda flys in the face of it was all a sinister set up/you don't know all the facts about what really happened argument being presented

Oh and chill here's a link here to the rte video footage, care to point out where you see any one hitting a Gardaí?

chill

Originally posted by Sparks
I'm not either. I'm also not willing to assume innocence without at least a cursory investigation. But we don't see even that, and so we have no way of determining whether or not the gardai involved are innocent or not - and so we don't trust them because we cannot reasonably do so.

So they're guilty because there hasn't been an investigation... ?

You cannot be found guilty of something without an investigation into the accusation. Once again, it's a case of "Hear no evil, see no evil"...

Yet you're willing to label all Garda based on that.

We don't have a trustworthy police force. And that's not someone's opinion I'm basing that on, it's the number of court cases where gardai have been found guilty of crimes while on duty, the number of incidents where there is clearly a need for investigation and reform yet none is seen, the sheer mafiaesque attitude of the Gardai as a group, and the sheer level of abuse involved in these cases.

Well I for one would love to see you offer references to this huge list of crimes involving Gardai that you are referring to ? You are the one making the accusations here, not me and therefore surely you are the one required to offer some substance to your allegations !

You keep accusing me of trolling yet it is you who is making unsubstantiated and unsupported allegations against the whole of the police force.

chill

Originally posted by Lemming
chill. It's of the "they can do no wrong" variety. Blinkered and extrordinarily naieve to say the least.

Hey - I haven't seen a single contribution to this thread with any corroborative references to support the indiscriminate allegations against the Garda. Loads of allegations of allegations but no evidence.

Because not a _SINGLE_ garda on duty that day could recall any other garda who was on duty with them. Hmmmmmmmm. Coincidence?? I think not.

What has that to do with anything ? If there's evidence against them then so be it. If there were they would be in court.

Tell me chill, if I rob a bank, and you cover for me when the police come knocking, what does that make you?

It makes me wonder if you have any evidence or just making wild accusatoins. Anyone can make accusations and Police all over the world suffer daily accusations from pond scum. The issue is what evidence is there ...

And you're conveniently overlooking the implications of the Donegal corruption scandal.

I am most certainly not. It was a disgrace and some of them shjould be locked up., But that doesn't make the whole of the force guilty. It makes a few red kneck gardai guilty of corruption. Period.

Indeed. "Do as we say not as we do" to form a quote.

A couple of swallows don't make a summer.

Oh, and incidentally I did a simple search on google.ie and came up with A LOT of information, quite a lot of it from official government sources, along with some quoted incidents stretching back into the 1970s for serious far-reaching abuse of garda power.

Well why aren't you posting some ? I keep hearing about endemic corruption and loads and loads of crimes committed yb Gardai all over the country and how the Gards are corrupt.
Where is the evidence other than a few isolated, though condemnable, cases through the years.

monument

Originally posted by chill
One would think so going by the behavour of those thugs. I and many others were absolutely delighted the Garda beat the sh** out them that day. It was an organised premeditated riot.

Yea, it was a premeditated riot - but when the Garda start a riot who is going to police them?

PLEASE NOTE: For the remainder of this post I’m not going to talk about the Garda, but a fictional police force called ‘Police Force A’ or ‘PFA’, in which I’m going to image what the ‘PFA’ would do in a similar position as the Garda.

THIS IS NON-FICTIONALLY ENVISAGING...

In a imaginary scenario two out of every six ‘PFA’ officers are corrupt in one way or another, so *for good reason* no ‘PFA’ officer can talk about the corruption with out some type of back lash.

So let’s look at the ‘Police Force A’ as if it was an apple - parts of the apple is rotten, and the other parts of the apple can not change the rotten parts – given time, what happens?

Klaus

http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2004/01/11/story455451737.asp

http://www.morristribunal.ie/asp/Index.asp?ObjectID=310&Mode=0&RecordID=39

and in case anyone missed it:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0108/primetime.html

monument

http://www.iccl.ie/criminalj/pubs.html#policing

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Zulu
Would you consider it typical that they would be in uniform - but without their numbers on display?

Nope - that's exactly my point.

I understand that this was not exactly the norm for the gaurds

That's also exactly my point.

but how can you defend them, when none of them "can remember" who was involved.

I didn't defend them.

Clearly some/few gaurds were acting out of order - but covering up and illegal action is also illegal, it "aiding and abetting a know felon". How can we respect them when they act above the law?

There are three sides to every story.

We're discussing the guards, other police forces are a different story.

Neat dodge.

So? They're professionals - thats what they get trained for. That is absolutly no excuse at all. They are PUBLIC servents, their job is to PROTECT the public and the civil rights of the said people.

My distinct impression is that there were professionals of another kind there that day. There are levels of provocation between calling names (which guards put up with to a ridiculous extent on a daily basis) and throwing kicks and punches. Use your imagination - do you really think it would be all that hard to provoke a guard into attacking you without committing a provable offence?

chill

Originally posted by Klaus
http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2004/01/11/story455451737.asp

Fro the record this is a newspaper 'opinion' article full of opinions and allegations and details of two or three possible cases over a thirty year period. No doubt they are substantially true imho. BUt they don't add to widespread corruption or anything like it.

http://www.morristribunal.ie/asp/Index.asp?ObjectID=310&Mode=0&RecordID=39

This is the Donegal case that I and others have already accepted as dreadful and deserving of serious action. But again - this hardly adds up to systematic or widespread law breaking.