Garda confidence survey, believable ?

chill

Originally posted by Kappar
I provided you with independent EU reports namley the CPT reports. This is absolutely sufficient evedience to support widespread abuse.

What was so big about that report ? I responded to it and no one contradicted me. It was essentially a report of a visit to a selection of Garda stations and a chronicalling of a small number of 'claimed assaults' by unknown individuals of unknown reliability. There was no investigation and no conclusion of guilt.

Yet you persistently call this evidence of widespread corruption and criminality ?

But then others provided you with links to all sorts of evidence. You dissmissed it all without bases you are dodging facts and I am afraid unconvincingly. You're in a hole and are clutching at straws and to coin a phrase "dig up".

You can't support your evidence and then throw up your hands and shout foul ? I responded to the so-called evidence and no one felt able to contradict my characterisation of it.

So I ask again where is this evidence ? So far we have an opinion column from a newspaper, a case in Donegal, a short list fo accusations in an EU report.

Is that it ?

chill

Originally posted by Zulu
I have to agree with others here.
While I enjoy a good debate - I can't continue to converse with Chill.
Sorry Chill, but you refuse to accept simple facts. I've debated competitively at all levels (it’s a hobby), and I've adjudicated. I know I hold a different view point - but if I was adjudicating here, I'm afraid to say you haven't convinced me at all, you just appear to be reiterating the same thing.

No offence - and thanks for your input though - really no hard feelings, but we're going nowhere.

Sorry

Exactly - I couldn't agree more and your statement is indeed an accurate summing up of the case.

A load of unfounded, unsupported accusations with no evidence to back it up except a couple of isolated reports across a force of thousands of officers,

A case for an independent ombudsman and some independent investigations ? - YES.

But a case for smearing a whole force with the actions of a handful of bad apples. No way.

monument

Originally posted by chill
But a case for smearing a whole force with the actions of a handful of bad apples. No way.

I don't think any one is saying every one of them are "bad apples" (?), but I'm a least saying it’s highly probably that the bad apples are widely spread, and when none of the better police officers are able/willing to speak out, one would have to imagine that the bad apples have in essences an amount of freedom or even control.

Kappar

What was so big about that report ? I responded to it and no one contradicted me. It was essentially a report of a visit to a selection of Garda stations and a chronicalling of a small number of 'claimed assaults' by unknown individuals of unknown reliability. There was no investigation and no conclusion of guilt.

No they're not. Your ignorance to see this is deleterious to your whole argument. They are comprehensive reports that have a concluded, in 3 reports with 10 year gap between the first and last, that "not inconsiderable number of persons complained of physical ill-treatment by police officers" buttressed by "the delegation’s doctors gathered medical evidence consistent with the allegations received" You say that the reports are "chronicalling of a small number of 'claimed assaults' by unknown individuals of unknown reliability" It is true that the reports do memorialise some incidents but as the report says these are only for "way of example, the CPT would like to make reference to the following cases:"

Another Sad situaton is also the curruption that goes undocumented. I for one could write a book on what i have seen the garda do. But alas I know you wouldn't accept them as evedience perhaps rightly. But i asure you I have no reson to make the stuff up at all.

Yet you persistently call this evidence of widespread corruption and criminality ?

I didn't say "criminality" but I am sure by implication it does. I am afaid that you can;t hide from facts. No matter how hard you are trying.

You can't support your evidence and then throw up your hands and shout foul ? I responded to the so-called evidence and no one felt able to contradict my characterisation of it.

I have vindicated my evidence here others have done the same. It's becoming increasingly apparent that your argument is illogical or based on some amusement factor. Do you think that the preponderence of people in this debate are would want to argue that our country's police services is not perfect? No, but they have to when they are faced with mainfest evedience We arn't doing it to rile you are becasue "we hate the pigs" but because it's FACT.

Hopefully we will get a fully independent Garda Ombudsman like you say would be good and it will show to you how widespread this problem is.

chill

Originally posted by Kappar
No they're not. Your ignorance to see this is deleterious to your whole argument.

Abuse isn't doing much for your point of view.

They are comprehensive reports that have a concluded, in 3 reports with 10 year gap between the first and last, that "not inconsiderable number of persons complained of physical ill-treatment by police officers" buttressed by "the delegation’s doctors gathered medical evidence consistent with the allegations received" You say that the reports are "chronicalling of a small number of 'claimed assaults' by unknown individuals of unknown reliability" It is true that the reports do memorialise some incidents but as the report says these are only for "way of example, the CPT would like to make reference to the following cases:"

So you've just proved my point. A gathering of 'claims' and 'reports' and medicals reports 'consistent with' don't add up to ditch water in my opinion. They only add up to a need for an independent ombudsman and review board or whatever. Nothing more.

Another Sad situaton is also the curruption that goes undocumented. I for one could write a book on what i have seen the garda do. But alas I know you wouldn't accept them as evedience perhaps rightly. But i asure you I have no reson to make the stuff up at all.

You're right. Going by the way you mischaracterise the flimsy isloated evidence offered heretofore to smear the whole force I wouldn't have any confidence in your own unproven claims.

I didn't say "criminality" but I am sure by implication it does. I am afaid that you can;t hide from facts. No matter how hard you are trying.

The facts are killing your argument every single time.

I have vindicated my evidence here others have done the same. It's becoming increasingly apparent that your argument is illogical or based on some amusement factor.

I have to get some amusement considering you keep on hammering on about one or two rehashed references that do not support the claims of systematic widespread criminality or misbehaviour.

What reference is evidence of widespread systematic corruption ? The Newspaper opinion ? The Flimsy recording of 'claims' from the EU or the, accepted, Donegal case ? Because you have nothing else to stand on yet you persist in making the same failed claims over and over again.

Do you think that the preponderence of people in this debate are would want to argue that our country's police services is not perfect ? No, but they have to when they are faced with mainfest evedience We arn't doing it to rile you are becasue "we hate the pigs" but because it's FACT.

yet you are continually unable to offer any supportive evidence to justify that assertion.

Hopefully we will get a fully independent Garda Ombudsman like you say would be good and it will show to you how widespread this problem is.

I am sure they will reliably investigate real evidence and real incidents that are supported by the evidence.
Then people can judge if there is in fact any basis for attacking a whole force of thousands of dedicated professionals based on a couple of cases spread over a few decades.

monument

Chill - your views are "so blatently and obviously incorrect, that no reasonable person who was in any way reasonably informed about the world they live in could maintain them. And since even a cursory search for information (and if you can come here, you can go to www.google.ie ) would provide sufficent evidence that what we're telling you is simple fact, I conclude that you cannot seriously hold those views and must in fact be proposing them for your own amusement."

Sparks

Originally posted by chill
So you've just proved my point. A gathering of 'claims' and 'reports' and medicals reports 'consistent with' don't add up to ditch water in my opinion.

Sadly for you chill, your opinion is insufficent to determine the offical worth of evidence. The fact of the matter is that too many Gardai have been caught committing illegal acts, and not only in Donegal and Dame Street. It is inconcievable that any rational person could observe the scale of such incidents and conclude that there was no problem to address - therefore, I say it again, I do not believe you truly hold these opinions, but are merely advancing them for your own amusement. And it's getting irritating.

Kappar

Abuse isn't doing much for your point of view.

What abuse. I wasn't abusing you.

So you've just proved my point. A gathering of 'claims' and 'reports' and medicals reports 'consistent with' don't add up to ditch water in my opinion. They only add up to a need for an independent ombudsman and review board or whatever. Nothing more.

This is evidence is clear and unambiguous. It's backed up with medical evidence and custody records. What is wrong with this evidence? Nothing! "claims" and "reports" are what is investigates and it did and found that it could conclude that "not inconsiderable number of persons complained of physical ill-treatment by police officers" Although it is not a court it does have hugh investigative powers conferred on it by European Convention for the Prevention of Torture and Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment. I think that this allows us to hold its judgement in high regard.

You've been arguing reciprocally I and think it's odvious that you are in a hole and you can't get out or as sparks and monument said you're taking the píss.