At long, long, last

chill

Originally posted by Sleipnir
Again, from what threat? You can't protect your territory from terrorists as there is no identifiable enemy.
Protect from every conceivable threat?
Well then we'll need a couple of subs as well. "Just in case" !

I agree.

The concept of 'protecting' ourselves is moot, as there is no identifiable or likely enemy that we can pragmatically protect ourselves against, except terrorism and that required a different kind of protection.

I agree with an earlier poster that I believe suggested that what we need is a small highly trained core army that can contribute something specialised to a wider European force. We only need aircraft for patrolling purposes, for fisheries, smuggling, surveillance etc. and we don't need heavy weapons that can be provided by other forces should the need arise. We should perhaps have units trained on those weapons but not maintain them in stock.

We should also maintain a small highly trained anti terrorism force and a counter intelligence force because such a force needs local knowledge and specialised training to work effectively in Ireland, and it should work in close integration with the British services.

wisp

sparky its pretty clear that you cant put forward a case for Ireland not having modern jet fighters.

Political thinkers in the other neutral countries obviously see the need for fighter aircraft and the only reason why Ireland doesnt have any to date is for historical reasons.

The concept of 'protecting' ourselves is moot, as there is no identifiable or likely enemy that we can pragmatically protect ourselves against, except terrorism and that required a different kind of protection.

This type of post borders on the plainly ignorant. SAM is simply not enough and anyone having an idea regarding Air defence matters will tell you that.

wisp

Again, from what threat? You can't protect your territory from terrorists as there is no identifiable enemy.
Protect from every conceivable threat?
Well then we'll need a couple of subs as well. "Just in case" !

No identifiable threat? The threat acknowledged by the Irish government which sought RAF jets to patrol our airspace for us. Whats this 'just in case' folly about?

These matters have been addressed by the government and a potential threat has been identified. There are numerous targets in Ireland. The Irish solution was is to ask the UK. A far from perfect solution.

For starts if your patriotism is so small and shriveled that you need a $100 million dollar hunks of metal as a form of patriotic viagria, then I pity you.

This a rant/crap if I ever saw one. One hundred million dollars chunks of metal? Are you referring to the individual unit cost? Well you will find out if you go and read a little that they are a fraction of that. The expected lifetime of a modern jet is something in the region of 30+odd years. This is on top of offsets also.

As for Health, you can throw all the billions you like (as Irish government did for how many years?) but without reform its a lumbering slow inefficent black hole.

There was a similar thread on this topic also. It all started regarding ministers flying around on planes and drifted onto the need for jet aircraft. There was deep resentment that ministers were flying in aeroplanes. (Personally I don’t have a problem providing they are more efficient) However this same theme championed by the likes of sparky followed on when discussing the obvious need for jet aircraft.

Time and again, clear and transparent facts were put forward to some of the members on this board. However nothing but the blindest ignorance is being demonstrated in some of their posts.

Taking other fellow E.U. neutral countries as an example of what the government should be doing. Demonstrating time and again the real cost of fighter programmes and the benefit that they can provide to the economy was still not enough.

On top of this, there was foolish posts attempting to suggest that (to paraphrase) there was ‘no clear or possible threat to Ireland’ when it has been recognised at the highest level of Irish government that there is a clear danger!

mycroft

sparky its pretty clear that you cant put forward a case for Ireland not having modern jet fighters.

Ah the "you're stupid and wrong" argument. Eloquently put. Sparks put together lucid and coherant points arguing his viewpoint well. Care to actually refute them.

Political thinkers in the other neutral countries obviously see the need for fighter aircraft and the only reason why Ireland doesnt have any to date is for historical reasons.

Like the Swiss. Who are wealthy, surrounded, and spent 15 years this century surrounded by warring factions. Frankly if I were the Swiss and could afford it I'd have an airforce.

We're not the Swiss. We're an Island of the cost of Europe, who have been invaded what four times in the last thousand years? (Vikings, Normans, Henry VI, and The french, which doesn't really count cause we asked them to invade.)

Call me nuts, but who'd attack us. It'd require a massive geo political change in Europe, which due to the EU is even less likely now.

Delusionals that we will ever in our lifetime have to defend irish soil are just that.

No identifiable threat? The threat acknowledged by the Irish government which sought RAF jets to patrol our airspace for us. Whats this 'just in case' folly about?

But thats not a common occurance and I'd like you to tell me how often it's happened in the last ten years. Once? Twice? Not a ringing endorcement for keeping a standing modern airforce is it?

wisp

Like the Swiss. Who are wealthy, surrounded, and spent 15 years this century surrounded by warring factions.

Call me nuts, but who'd attack us. It'd require a massive geo political change in Europe, which due to the EU is even less likely now.

No were Ireland with one of the highest GDP/GNP in the EU. What this nonsense about invasions ? Ever since the fall of the Berlin wall in 1989 it has been recognised by military/political thinkers that there is no threat of any EU nation being invaded. I think the discussion has moved on:rolleyes:

But thats not a common occurance and I'd like you to tell me how often it's happened in the last ten years. Once? Twice? Not a ringing endorcement for keeping a standing modern airforce is it?

Numerous times in this year and last year. More often that you would care to admit.

mycroft

Numerous times in this year and last year. More often that you would care to admit.

Do you have any figures/stats?

No were Ireland with one of the highest GDP/GNP in the EU. What this nonsense about invasions ? Ever since the fall of the Berlin wall in 1989 it has been recognised by military/political thinkers that there is no threat of any EU nation being invaded. I think the discussion has moved on

And as we've pointed out jet fighters are ineffective againist terrorist attacks, so explain to me again why we need them?

wisp

Why?
1What possible use would an F-16 squadron be?
2Can they stop car bombs?
3Can they stop airliners from being hijacked?
4Can they stop armed gangs kneecapping people?
5Can they stop any of the actual threats we face?
6No, they can't.

I wont argue about the choice of airframe

1.They could provide Ireland the means of being able to protect its airspace and not having to rely regularly on the RAF.

2.They were designed for that so dont be silly

3.No they can shoot them down quickly though

4.Again your being silly, but maybe that just you:rolleyes:

5.Yes they can and have been recognised as being able to hence asking the UK for assistence.

7. see above

Thing is, to shoot down an airliner, you want a few missiles. Sidewinders or the russian/french/whomever equivalent will do. They don't even have to be new variants.

Thing is, you don't need to launch them from F-16s. So even for the mass murder of over a hundred people, you don't need fighters.

The first thing a jet would do would be to scramble then approach the jet airliner and try to set the airliner off course. Simply firing (a sidewinder from the ground )isnt very smart.

Now if you want to put actual security in place in airports to prevent the hijackers from getting on the plane, I'm all for that - and so are the airline pilot associations, who know a lot more about this than you and I.

But fighter jets we don't need? No thanks.

You will find that security isnt just one thing which you can put in place. Its a whole host of measures. Airport secuirty has been shown to be breached in the US.

wisp

Do you have any figures/stats?

No I dont have access to any figures or statictics. However there were numerous overflys by the RAF at Shannon at numerous seperate occasions.

And as we've pointed out jet fighters are ineffective againist terrorist attacks, so explain to me again why we need them?

And as you've pointed out, jet fighters are ineffective against terrorist hijackings? And I thought they were pretty effective at intercepting since thats one of their primary roles. Those designers right?:rolleyes:

Ok Ill explain it to you again

We need a modern jet fighter to defend our own airspace. We can continue to ask the UK but evenutally we need to have our own capability. Its not a question of do we need them, since obviously we do or we wouldnt be asking other countries to do it for us. Its a question of when Ireland should be purchasing them.

Any time there is a foreign visit for example Bush in the Summer were going to need aircover. Troops moving at Shannon is another example. The Royal visit is another example. Then there is all the embassies in Dublin etc ...

mycroft

They could provide Ireland the means of being able to protect its airspace and not having to rely regularly on the RAF.

Again figures, and while we're at it, whats the problem with that anyway?

You will find that security isnt just one thing which you can put in place.

True but you'll find it's more effective, more cost effective and won't waste hundreds of millions on technology we don't need, can't afford and could spend better.

And I thought they were pretty effective at intercepting since thats one of their primary roles.

Um when? The only plane brought down during Sept 11th was brought down by passengers. Care to give one example of a sucessful use of an airforce intercepting or preventing a terrorist attack using a plane?

US airspace is one of the most monitored in the world. It also has the largest and most powerful airforce, scrambled after the event.

Hypotheticals.

1. Terrorists take over a plane on route from london. Solution RAF or USAF based in wales intercept.

2. Terrorists take over a plane taking off in Dublin and plan to attack dublin. Sorry by the time we realise something is up, the plane is down and our pilots haven't got out of their pyjamas

3. Terrorists take over a plane in shannon. Likelyhood is they'd aim for a midair collision with a US army plane. Again, time we'd thought something was up it'd be raining fire in clare. Or they aim for Dublin. All three sept 11 flights orginated in Places like Chicago/Boston the two planes which hit the world trade center a two to three hour journey. Flying time from Dublin to Shannon is less then half an hour, if they were aiming for Dublin they'd ve well over dublin airspace before we knew something was up, again we'd never see it coming, and your precious airsforce would be caught napping.

As for the other points wisp, Again hard of thinking USAF provide aircover for prez. Damned if I'm paying 100m so prince philip gets protected, and if the illegal transport of US troops through shannon needs protection they can damn well pay for it themselves. All of your justifications demand that we fork over hundreds of millions, for occasional state visits, embassies, and US troops.

Nuts to that....

Sand

We dont need or want a well equipped military force it seems. Were not going to be invaded anytime soon. Irish terrorism is a police/intelligence matter. The un? Weve got a small army - it makes more sense to ask the chinese ( who need and want a well equipped military force anyway ) to provide the soldiers on the ground whilst irish money goes to investment in war torn regions rather than us paying for an army we dont need or want.

Any of the services carried out by the military forces such as fisheries protection etc etc can be carried out just as well, if not better and cheaper by cvillian agencies.

As for airspace lets just be honest about it and ask the RAF or the USAF to set up an airbase in Ireland so they can defend us better. Hell with the US pissed with the Germans they might *want* to set up here.

wisp

quote:Originally posted by Turkey
I would like to point out that I have no intention of changing sparks mind about this topic


Would that be because I demand that you prove your point before I accept it?

Maybe its because when posting facts like in the other thread, you clearly ignored them"

We have a set amount of money. It gets spent on different things. The amount available for one of those things is dependant on how much is spent on the others. Because of this, we must prioritise what we spend and on what we spend it, in a manner which reflects our actual needs. We all need education and we all need hospitals. Therefore, it is relevant to bring them up.


Clearly enough explained?

No, thats not entirely correct. Any given government has obviously a limited amount of money to spend not specfically us.

Spending money on fighter jets has to be taken in the light of the lifetime the aircraft will have, the offsets the company/foreign governement gives and/or jobs provided in Ireland.

quote:By the way spark, I was factoring that on ; is a hell of a lot less then the price of a pint, per week, per taxpayer. [I assumed 1 million taxpayers, as it happens, worst case suitation, normal practice.]


As of 2001 we had 1.6 million taxpayers. Since I've not heard of 600,000 jobs being lost in the last two years, I propose that 1.6 to 2 million would be about right for an estimate.
However, what matters here is that that money be spent on what we need, not what would basicly have no use other than assuaging the egos of a few military hardware anoraks.

Grow up sporky. Do you honestly belive that every other neutral country in the E.U. is spending money on their airforces for 'assuaging the egos of a few military hardware anoraks.' We have one of the lowest unemployements figures in Europe so that doesnt make much sense either.

quote:Where did I ; by my own admission,say these assets were useless for anything but exhibition?

This does not directly concern me, however it should be pointed out that the first aim of any Defence Force/police unit etc is to be seen. Thats why the US Navy makes sure everyone see its submarines going to sea, same applies to GARDAI. You hope you never actually have to use your weapons.

History teaches otherwise, or have you never heard of the Phoney War?

Have you every heard of attacking the weakest link in the chain? If a terrorist cant attack a well guarded target he will simply go to somewhere he can attack.

wisp

Again figures, and while we're at it, whats the problem with that anyway?

Its something that a country should be able to do. Even Finland can do, and they have more than 60+ modern FA/18

Um when? The only plane brought down during Sept 11th was brought down by passengers. Care to give one example of a sucessful use of an airforce intercepting or preventing a terrorist attack using a plane?

Your example is a poor one. Back in the 1970's there were also hijackings of airplanes but they were on the ground. At the start they were very successful until European etc governments set up a force to counter the threat. 9/11 was a surprise, however the proper structures/procedures are now in place to deal with hijacked aircraft.

The US Navy Tomcats during the cold war were often scrambled because of incoming soviet aircraft and did a fine job.

US airspace is one of the most monitored in the world. It also has the largest and most powerful airforce, scrambled after the event.

Hypotheticals.

1. Terrorists take over a plane on route from london. Solution RAF or USAF based in wales intercept.

The Response time would be too slow.

2. Terrorists take over a plane taking off in Dublin and plan to attack dublin. Sorry by the time we realise something is up, the plane is down and our pilots haven't got out of their pyjamas

Rubbish, if the Irish aircorps had the jets, they could be in the air in a matter of minutes.

3. Terrorists take over a plane in shannon. Likelyhood is they'd aim for a midair collision with a US army plane. Again, time we'd thought something was up it'd be raining fire in clare. Or they aim for Dublin. All three sept 11 flights orginated in Places like Chicago/Boston the two planes which hit the world trade center a two to three hour journey. Flying time from Dublin to Shannon is less then half an hour, if they were aiming for Dublin they'd ve well over dublin airspace before we knew something was up, again we'd never see it coming, and your precious airsforce would be caught napping.

More nonsense, jet aircraft based in Ireland, most likely Dublin, would be able to counter any incoming jet aircraft quicker than anywhere else and more reliably.

Well as a modern country we have the obligation to be able to stand on our own too feet without having to recieve hand outs. However that said, if some like the FA/18 or Joint Strike Fighter is not purchased then the RAF or USAF should base a squadron of fighter jets here in Ireland .

wisp

We dont need or want a well equipped military force it seems.

Are you serious ?

Were not going to be invaded anytime soon.

I think you are....... errr like theres not any sinn fein/ira terrorists in the country?

Irish terrorism is a police/intelligence matter. The un? Weve got a small army - it makes more sense to ask the chinese ( who need and want a well equipped military force anyway ) to provide the soldiers on the ground whilst irish money goes to investment in war torn regions rather than us paying for an army we dont need or want.

Ok sand, we will send you to the next EU or UN meeting and when there is mass genocide or another Liberia/East Timor/Lebannon/Eriteria/Kosovo/Afganistan mission
you just telll them that we dont care how many die.

Any of the services carried out by the military forces such as fisheries protection etc etc can be carried out just as well, if not better and cheaper by cvillian agencies.

So Aid to Civil Power will just be privatised to some company? Its just rent a mob.

As for airspace lets just be honest about it and ask the RAF or the USAF to set up an airbase in Ireland so they can defend us better. Hell with the US pissed with the Germans they might *want* to set up here.

Thats a good idea getting the US or UK to have a squadron based here but we are as a nation neurtal and full of contraditions

monument

Wisp - you still have not specified any real possible threat to Ireland which jet fighters etc… would defend us.


“The US Navy Tomcats during the cold war were often scrambled because of incoming soviet aircraft and did a fine job.”

Why did you even bother saying that? – Foreseeable who is going to attack Ireland with military aircraft?


“Rubbish, if the Irish aircorps had the jets, they could be in the air in a matter of minutes”

They might be there in a matter of minutes… meanwhile the aeroplane has crashed into its Dublin target.


“Well as a modern country we have the obligation to be able to stand on our own too feet without having to recieve hand outs”

Rubbish - even if we put our entire amount of tax euro into defence we’d still be unable to defend our self against attacks from a lot of countries. (I’ll be realist when you start doing so)


“Were not going to be invaded anytime soon”

“I think you are....... errr like theres not any sinn fein/ira terrorists in the country?”

LOL – Are the IRA or other terrorists are going to invaded Ireland? :rolleyes:


“Ok sand, we will send you to the next EU or UN meeting and when there is mass genocide or another Liberia/East Timor/Lebannon/Eriteria/Kosovo/Afganistan mission
you just telll them that we dont care how many die”

Why would you also send the jets you want over to every troubled country? :rolleyes:

mycroft

Its something that a country should be able to do. Even Finland can do, and they have more than 60+ modern FA/18

Again I noticed you avoided providing figures for RAF fighters called into Ireland.

Finland shares a border with the former USSR who invaded them fifty years ago, has dozens of small unstable countries with potential nuclear capability.

And again. Why? Iceland has four USAF F-16s. We're party European Union, contribute to the EU whats wrong with asking for the occasional bit of air support.

however the proper structures/procedures are now in place to deal with hijacked aircraft.

And these are?

The Response time would be too slow.

Rubbish, if the Irish aircorps had the jets, they could be in the air in a matter of minutes.

So oblviously the cheetahs in the Irish air corp are lethal compared to the three toed sloughs in the USAF in Wales.

More nonsense, jet aircraft based in Ireland, most likely Dublin, would be able to counter any incoming jet aircraft quicker than anywhere else and more reliably.

How???? By the time you'd figure out anything was wrong it'd be too late. even scrambling at the slightest deviation will take five ten minutes, plenty of time for a jet loaded with fuel to fly the 10 miles into dublin city center.

Your maths is idiotic and poorly thought out.

Spending money on fighter jets has to be taken in the light of the lifetime the aircraft will have, the offsets the company/foreign governement gives and/or jobs provided in Ireland.

Okay assuming 16 aircraft at oh $100 a pop. Three pilots a craft, and say a support crew of erh 10 per aircraft. Each job gained from this craft is costing about 3.5m each. And that cost exludes maintenance, parts, weapons, storage, and security.

Now think how many jobs could be made with each of those 3.5m in other sectors and see how daft your theory is.

The suggestion that these things aren't a money hole, is moronic.

wisp

Wisp - you still have not specified any real possible threat to Ireland which jet fighters etc… would defend us.

Monument, there are numerous potential threats to Ireland.

Modern Jet aircraft would provide Ireland with the best security should a airliner be hijacked. However an integrated approach is required.

post 9/11 the government set up a body headed by Minister for Defence Smith TD to deal with the secuirty threat facing Ireland. It sits once a month. The government has requested air cover from the RAF and now deploys anti aircraft guns and whatever air assets we have. So the government has the intelligence tip offs etc to realise that Ireland may be a potential target. Thats not my opinion thats the Irish governments current thinking!

“The US Navy Tomcats during the cold war were often scrambled because of incoming soviet aircraft and did a fine job.”

Why did you even bother saying that? – Foreseeable who is going to attack Ireland with military aircraft?

You asked me to give a question of jet aircraft intercepting incoming aircraft and i gave you one.

“Rubbish, if the Irish aircorps had the jets, they could be in the air in a matter of minutes”

They might be there in a matter of minutes… meanwhile the aeroplane has crashed into its Dublin target.

I have the fullest confidence in the aircorps providing aircover providing they are given the correct equipment to do their job.

“Well as a modern country we have the obligation to be able to stand on our own too feet without having to recieve hand outs”

Rubbish - even if we put our entire amount of tax euro into defence we’d still be unable to defend our self against attacks from a lot of countries. (I’ll be realist when you start doing so)

Folly! a fighter programme wouldnt be a huge cost, if you take the real cost of the programme. Where are you going with this 'defend our shores from outside attack' like there is going to be a mass invasion. I have already noted that its largely recognised that the threat now and in the future years lies with smaller groups. Hijacking airliners in the sky is one such real possibility.

“Were not going to be invaded anytime soon”

“I think you are....... errr like theres not any sinn fein/ira terrorists in the country?”

LOL – Are the IRA or other terrorists are going to invaded Ireland?

Yeah that bit about the nice provo/sinn fein scum was really funny:rolleyes:
Go back and re read the context. The poster in question was attempting to say we dont need a Defence Force (duh)

“Ok sand, we will send you to the next EU or UN meeting and when there is mass genocide or another Liberia/East Timor/Lebannon/Eriteria/Kosovo/Afganistan mission
you just telll them that we dont care how many die”

Why would you also send the jets you want over to every troubled country?

I dont know what to say to you ..... are you making fun of UN missions ? The aircorps cant serve abroad because of the recent White Paper on Defence. Only a squadron of jets is required for Ireland, we wouldnt have the capability to deploy abroad.

However a squadron of jet fighters are an integeral part of overall Irish security and the government should buy into a US programme like the Joint Strike Fighter in 2010.

wisp

Again I noticed you avoided providing figures for RAF fighters called into Ireland.

Maybe thats because you cant read other peoples posts but only the government knows and wont release that figure!

Finland shares a border with the former USSR who invaded them fifty years ago, has dozens of small unstable countries with potential nuclear capability.

And again. Why? Iceland has four USAF F-16s. We're party European Union, contribute to the EU whats wrong with asking for the occasional bit of air support.

Finland and Ireland differ in that they like every other neutral country take their neutrality seriously. We dont and arent neutral politically or militarily. We are actually STILL net recipents of EU aid.

there is nothing wrong with asking for air support. Either we are on the fence or off it. Another solution would be to ask the US/UK government to base a squadron or 2 here.

quote:however the proper structures/procedures are now in place to deal with hijacked aircraft.

And these are?

Im sorry I cant quote from airforce doctrine, however I did give a previous example of how USN F14's were scrambled with very short notice on interception. Belguim has a response time of something in the region of 4 minutes in Year 2000.

quote:Rubbish, if the Irish aircorps had the jets, they could be in the air in a matter of minutes.

So oblviously the cheetahs in the Irish air corp are lethal compared to the three toed sloughs in the USAF in Wales.

Because of the distance invovled fighters based in Ireland will obviously respond quicker.

quote:More nonsense, jet aircraft based in Ireland, most likely Dublin, would be able to counter any incoming jet aircraft quicker than anywhere else and more reliably.

How???? By the time you'd figure out anything was wrong it'd be too late. even scrambling at the slightest deviation will take five ten minutes, plenty of time for a jet loaded with fuel to fly the 10 miles into dublin city center.

Your maths is idiotic and poorly thought out.

As charming as you are, your posts are relatively stupid, ignornant and naive.

Okay assuming 16 aircraft at oh $100 a pop. Three pilots a craft, and say a support crew of erh 10 per aircraft. Each job gained from this craft is costing about 3.5m each. And that cost exludes maintenance, parts, weapons, storage, and security.

Your posts arent based on much fact are they? Jets dont cost $100 (whatever that figure is).

Now think how many jobs could be made with each of those 3.5m in other sectors and see how daft your theory is.

The suggestion that these things aren't a money hole, is moronic

Go and put a decent arguement together and get your facts before you start rambling rubbish. Most fighter deals include spare parts maintaince etc.. Im not saying these things are dirt cheap but take the medium lift helicopter deal, there was over €100million in offsets there for that company in Dublin.

mycroft

Maybe thats because you cant read other peoples posts but only the government knows and wont release that figure!

So you can't support or substantiate that claim that we've called in the RAF for whatever reasons that you won't tell us about. Well I believe you. thousands wouldn't.

Another solution would be to ask the US/UK government to base a squadron or 2 here.

And they'd tell you theres no need or necessity.

Im sorry I cant quote from airforce doctrine, however I did give a previous example of how USN F14's were scrambled with very short notice on interception. Belguim has a response time of something in the region of 4 minutes in Year 2000.

Again would you like to support that claim? And furthermore, a passenger plane would make the short hop from Dublin airport to city center in under four minutes, assuming a cruising speed of three hundred miles an hour.

Because of the distance invovled fighters based in Ireland will obviously respond quicker.

Pay attention I said a jet traveling from england. See that land mass between us, it's called wales....If a jet was behaving suspiciously it would be noticed and intercepted by USAF and RAF based there.

As charming as you are, your posts are relatively stupid, ignornant and naive.

At least I support my arguments. You're just pulling statisics out of thin air.

Go and put a decent arguement together and get your facts before you start rambling rubbish. Most fighter deals include spare parts maintaince etc.. Im not saying these things are dirt cheap but take the medium lift helicopter deal, there was over €100million in offsets there for that company in Dublin.

Okay your arguments have been.

Terrorist threat. Considering the unlikelyhood of an attack and the utter ineffectiveness of a jet defense kinda moot.

Job creation. If you were really interested in job creation the money spent could be used far more effectively, than massively subsidising a handful of jobs. Instead use the money to create jobs, which inturn add funds to the exchecher

State visits. Sod it if I'm paying for prince philips air entourage, and the US operates on a B.Y.O.A (bring your own airforce policy) and the rarity of such visits that is just impratical, and just damn stupid

Sand

Are you serious ?

Im being practical. Id like Ireland to have its own space misson but we cant afford to have one and in the end we dont really want one so we dont bother wasting money on a half arsed attempt to begin with. Thats common sense. We dont *need* a military force, we dont want to *pay* for a military force so why bother paying good money for bloody jet trainers and their assorted costs when theyll be blown out of the sky by any half modern airforce inside the first 20 minutes of combat.

I think you are....... errr like theres not any sinn fein/ira terrorists in the country?

Yes, theyre already in the country which precludes the possibility of invasion. Theyre also about 800 strong, and the Gardai Intelligence are our best weapons against them, not scorpion light tanks or F-18 jet fighters.

Ok sand, we will send you to the next EU or UN meeting and when there is mass genocide or another Liberia/East Timor/Lebannon/Eriteria/Kosovo/Afganistan mission

I dont think Ireland has ever sent the air corp abroad - except for taxing ministers to and from junkets. As for the un missons in general its again common sense and efficient to ask the Chinese, or the Russians or whoever else already has a few hundred thousand soldiers lying around with half decent equipment to provide the troops, whilst we provide the investment. They have the soldiers anyway, so why bother paying for a military we dont need for ourselves in the first place?

So Aid to Civil Power will just be privatised to some company? Its just rent a mob.

I thought aid to the civil power was exactly that? They fill in the gaps for stuff like filling sandbags when weve got flooding and stuff, they provide free bank runs escorts and so on.

Thats a good idea getting the US or UK to have a squadron based here but we are as a nation neurtal and full of contraditions

Well itll give the student protestors something to do on the weekend and its not like weve got principles, just interests.

chill

Originally posted by wisp
This type of post borders on the plainly ignorant. SAM is simply not enough and anyone having an idea regarding Air defence matters will tell you that.

Well if you can't express your view without being abusive then perhaps your view is not all that convincing...

chill

Well I've read a LOT of arguments since my last post and I don't see anyone explain what threat there is to Ireland that an airforce would be appropriate to deal with. The only possible reason to acquire such aircraft would be out of control ego.

It seems to me that having an agreement with the RAF or the USAF in the UK would be far far cheaper and far more effective. They are only a couple of minutes away and can be here in time to deal with any eventuality.
We should make sure that a suitable military airfield has appropriate services to service those aircraft and bobs your uncle.

monument

Originally posted by wisp
Yeah that bit about the nice provo/sinn fein scum was really funny:rolleyes:
Go back and re read the context. The poster in question was attempting to say we dont need a Defence Force (duh)

If it was a reply to not needing an army defence force at all...

I'm sorry, as I read your comment out of context.

bonkey

Wisp has joined the select list of those who receive a one-week-ban for yet again showing an inability to discuss this topic civilly.

This appears to be a topic which precludes civil discussion, and so I am closing the thread.

Anyone who wishes to start a new thread is free to do so, but let me be very clear - any breaking of the rules in such a thread will result in an immediate and permanent ban.

jc