Western Rail Corridor

enterprise

I reckon the existing DMU's would be used on the service at the start. I can't see enough Intercity DMU's being available to operate the service.

SeanW

Given that there is a credible Galway-Ennis-Limerick commuter belt, any trains just going between Galway and Limerick would be Commuter grade DMUs. But Galway-Cork would require Intercity grade cars IMO. We've already seen what Commuter cars do to Intercity lines like Rosslare ...

I can't see enough Intercity DMU's being available to operate the service.

It's possible there won't be enough, I've read rumours that Irish Rail intends to scrap some/all Mk3 coaches (the newest of the existing coach sets, commissioned from 1984-1989) which (to a logical person) makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, but then again this is Irish Rail we're talking about.

If they don't scrap any Mk3s there will be plenty of Intercity grade stock to expand Intercity services and improve current ones. Finding 2 or 3 Mitsui trainsets with 3 cars each should not be a problem in that case.

enterprise

Some Mk3 sets may be retained to increase the Enterprise service to hourly according to an industry magazine report i've read. This would require 4 sets to be retained (3 service + plus 1 mtce spare). Plus i've also read that the mk3 push / pull sets would be retained for Heuston outer suburban services.

ishmael whale

SeanW wrote:

The government made a good move relaying the line from Limerick to Ennis, 130000 passengers used it in a single year breaking all expectations despite the fact that it does nothing except provide a few trains running non-stop Ennis-Limerick.

Now its time to finish the job and rebuild the line to Athenry.

There may be a case for Limerick-Galway, but the case still needs to be made. For comparison, the prediction for Cork commuter services seems to be 3.8 million passengers initially, doubling by the year 2020. It seems to be expected that some level of subsidy will be needed towards annual running costs for the first few years of operation, but ultimately the service is expected to break even.

The numbers reported for Limerick Ennis are simply not in that ballpark, and we don’t seem to have any authoritative published figure for annual running costs. Bear in mind that 80,000 of the 130,000 passengers are actually travelling Ennis – Dublin, and that factor will not be present in a reopened Ennis-Galway link (i.e. there is no real gain in offering people in Ennis a choice between travelling to Dublin via Limerick or Galway.) There is a need to question the statements appearing in the media to the effect that Limerick Ennis is a tremendous success, or that it exceeds expectations. Objectively, the expectations for the service must have been very low if this result exceeds them.

The extra passengers that can be expected from opening the full Limerick – Galway route will be people travelling from Ennis to Galway and people travelling between Limerick, Galway and Cork. If Ennis to Galway traffic is comparable to Ennis Limerick, then that might amount to 50,000 people. What’s the likely Galway-Limerick-Cork traffic? Limerick-Waterford might be a guide, but no figures seems to be available in respect of it. But, bearing in mind what we know of passenger numbers on various Dublin lines, we can take it that potential traffic would be measured in either tens or hundreds of thousands rather than millions. Certainly the numbers are much lower than for projects such as Cork-Midleton.

This is not to say that Galway – Limerick should not be proceeded with. All I’m saying is that the sums haven’t been done, or at least haven’t been published. I’d expect, intuitively, that at the very least Galway – Limerick development plans should be drafted with a possible future rail link in mind. Whether than link needs to be built now, or whether we’d just find ourselves moving around a small number of people at great cost when those resources could be better used for some other purpose, has not been clearly established.

ishmael whale

http://www.mayonews.ie/current/county.tmpl$showpage?value1=3325352980622767
http://www.mayonews.ie/current/news.tmpl$showpage?value1=3325350873621742
http://www.westernpeople.ie/news/story.asp?j=25453
http://www.sligoweekender.ie/news/sw_story.asp?j=22996

A selection of local coverage of the conference. Sadly, there seems to be no recognition of the weakness of the McCann report, or of the need to integrate public transport proposals with regional plans.

I notice a quote from my favourate quango, the WDC, here.
http://www.mayonews.ie/current/county.tmpl$showpage?value1=3325352980622767

One of the senior staff attached to the Western Development Commission said that the message would really hit home when decentralisation takes place. It is only then that the people who make decisions in running this country (senior civil servants) will have to travel the highways and byways to attend meetings. Only then will they experience the sad lack of infrastructure that is endemic throughout the west.

A cheap shot would be to point out that this is the same WDC that says that “75% of people across the seven counties spend 30 minutes or less getting to work.” (http://www.lookwest.ie/) Hardly evidence of a massive infrastructure deficit. Maybe they think Roscommon could do with an airport too.

But more generally, is this really an example of the depth of though the WDC put into regional development? Have they any commitment to the spatial strategy? All they ever seem to do is follow the line of least resistance, advocating any and all expenditure for the West without any thought for what benefits it might bring.

Politically it looks like the WRC still has some life, even if the McCann group has failed to produce any substantial case for it. Fine Gael are making noise about it, notwithstanding the lack of sense in the proposal.

http://www.mayonews.ie/current/news.tmpl$showpage?value1=3325350873621742

Fine Gael leader Deputy Enda Kenny …. committed Fine Gael to the development of the Corridor if they form a Government after the next election. "I’ve already given a commitment on this. I have met representatives of West on Track in Kiltimagh, and I believe in this project. There is a €600 million underspend in the BMW region, but the Western Rail Corridor is a striking example of how government can make an impact on balanced regional development if the will is there."

SeanW

Fine Gael. They're just pandering.

I don't think FG would have a reason to exist if they didnt have someone to pander to.

MG

Admittedly, the report itself is disappointing in being only a synopsis of the findings rather than a run through the analysis. However, it is great news and the recommendations based on previous reports are the logical, sensible and correct ones for the strategic growth of rail.

ishmael whale

I don’t think anyone has a problem in principle with connecting Limerick and Galway. The McCann report is useful in providing a view that cannot be decried as ‘Dublin-centric’ that going beyond Claremorris would cost a lot and achieve very little, and that going beyond Tuam may also be a level crossing too far.

What's needed for the Ennis-Galway stretch (ditto Athenry/Tuam) is some indication of associated costs and benefits. As the McCann report is silent on this, its failing to provide the basics of a case for re-opening even those portions anecdotally regarded as being the best bets. Hence you get a Minister who, presumably, would much rather be announcing that he was approving the first phase(s) of the WRC, reduced to explaining that proposals need to reflect real transportation needs.

Reopening Ennis Galway may well be logical, sensible and correct, but could someone put down the sums? We know the figures for Midleton and Duboyne. What's the problem with stating the figures for the most viable parts of the WRC?

I notice WOT haven’t yet updated their website www.westontrack.com with news of either the McCann report or any of the press coverage of their conference. I’m not sure they feel there is much ‘good news’ either in the report or the initial official response to it.

ishmael whale

The only piece of recent news coverage to make it to WOT’s website is Martin Mansergh’s column from the Irish Times -21st May 2005 “Restored Western Rail Corridor will reinvigorate west”. They’re obviously following the time honoured Irish approach to difficult realities – pretend they’re not there. It’s good to see these traditions being maintained, as avoidance of uncomfortable truths is what sustained our forefathers through many centuries of trial.

Mansergh’s article follows the well-worn path of WRC proponents. Simply ignore all the nasty things people have said about the project, and blow a loud trumpet.

http://www.westontrack.com/news123.htm

The present estimated cost of euro350 million would be less than the individual cost of most big Dublin infrastructural projects.

The cost, including rolling stock, is estimated at €600 million. That’s nearly the cost of the Luas. A figure of €30 million per year ongoing cost has been floated. The Luas is self financing. The simply fact is the WRC would gobbled up considerable resources from here to eternity, at the expense of more worthwhile projects elsewhere.

Sensible people see the necessity of easing acute development pressures on Dublin, by creating other poles of attraction.

Indeed, and the WRC (as in Galway-Sligo) does nothing to create an alternative pole of attraction. Limiting one-off housing in Western counties would.

There is a superficial case for focusing only on restoring the Limerick-Claremorris section.

Here he truly parts company with this universe. The McCann report highlights the fact that Claremorris-Colooney is by far the most expense part of the line to build, and can be expected to bring the least benefits as there are no significant towns on the route.

Regional tourism growth, over concentrated in Dublin, needs rebalancing. This will help.

If people want to have stag and hen nights in Dublin, what’s the problem? They’re not a pretty sight, but I really don’t see how this manifestation creates a need for a rail line in the West. Maybe if Irish tourism industry offered better value for money, more people would come. (Sorry, I apologise. Its a frightening suggestion that maybe the responsibility for tourists avoiding the regions has to the do with the value for money they get compared to other destinations.)

The running down of freight by CIE, while it may make commercial sense to them, is not in the public interest.

It is well understood that the question of rail freight is utterly independent of the WRC. Western towns are already well served with rail lines should it be decided to subsidise rail freight.

All the main political parties were present in force in Castlebar to lend their support to the project

But Dr Strangelove (sorry, Mansergh) fails to mention the Minister’s clear indication that transport projects need to serve some identified need, and be integrated with other developments. The WRC isn’t, and the Minister’s comment that transport is not an end in itself is particularly pointed for WOT.

If parts of the country far from Dublin are given the infrastructural improvements at relatively modest cost that will make all the difference to people's lives, they will not begrudge the heavy investment that is required in and around the capital.

Every part of this statement is questionable. The WRC does not involve modest cost, and will not make a difference in people’s lives. I expect any investment in Dublin will be resented whatever happens.
But the key point is that if anything meaningful is to be done to promote regional development, there’s a need to concentrate resources to promote scale in a few regional centres.

murphaph

Mansergh's article was tripe of the highest order. You can tell he can't switch off the advisor (spin) module.

It's high time we in Greater Dublin and other urban centres had directly elected mayors with real tax raising and spending powers. Then we'd really see where generates the wealth and where deserves the spending.

ishmael whale

Some more coverage that doesn’t seem to have made it to WOT’s website.

http://www.unison.ie/tuam_herald/stories.php3?ca=38&si=1398562&issue_id=12489
http://www.unison.ie/tuam_herald/stories.php3?ca=38&si=1398560&issue_id=12489
http://www.unison.ie/tuam_herald/stories.php3?ca=34&si=1398548&issue_id=12489
Disappointment in West over no rail announcement
….While it had not been expected that the Minister would officially announce support for the project it had been widely speculated that the Minister would have reassured those campaigning for the re-opening of the Sligo to Limerick rail link that the project was in the bag. Instead the Minister issued a clear warning that the project would have to meet strict economic criteria and told a Western Rail Corridor conference in Castlebar that the line could not be simply an end in itself but must fit into the overall development plan for the region.

The backers of the Western Rail Corridor must now convince the Government that the project makes economic and planning sense and make a convincing case for the corridor’s role in the economic development of the region….

What’s lacking in the response is any acknowledgement of the core issue. The WRC doesn’t fit into any overall plan for the development of the region, yet local campaigners expected it to be funded. Can they really think of no better outlet for their efforts?

Galway East Deputy Paul Connaughton has accused the Minister of acting like Pontius Pilate as far as rail in the west is concerned and noted that there did not seem to have been a need for such scrutiny when the Dublin to Navan rail line was announced during the recent Meath by-election.

In fact, a clear cost benefit analysis with realistic passenger figures and both capital and ongoing costings has been produced in respect of Dublin/Navan. Similarly, estimates of the expected demand and costings for Cork Midleton have been done. The problem with the WRC is that it just doesn’t past muster and the only thing keeping the project in view is that local campaigners don’t seem to want to admit that they’re just plain wrong.

The report … argues strongly that it is an economically viable proposal and vital for the development of the region.

It actually doesn’t, and specifically casts doubt on going beyond Claremorris, and possibly even Tuam. It presents no information on ongoing costs and benefits of the WRC.

Further confusion was caused when Galway East Deputy Paddy McHugh leafleted Tuam on the eve of the Minister’s visit welcoming the announcement which never materialised. “I am delighted to announce that the Western Rail Corridor which includes the Tuam-Galway rail link will be included in the 10 year multi-annual Transportation Programme to be published shortly” Deputy McHugh stated in the leaflet, adding that he would now be lobbying for the Tuam-Galway link to be included in the first phase of the project.

lol

ishmael whale

Another bit of coverage that doesn’t seem to have made it to the West on Track website. Bertie seems to be signalling Ennis to Athenry is possible, but no more than that.

West on Track have posted a recent story from the Limerick Leader quoting them as claiming the Taoiseach is committed to funding the reopening the whole line, as if the Castlebar conference never happened. They seem to be in an advanced state of denial.

http://www.unison.ie/sligo_champion/stories.php3?ca=34&si=1404208&issue_id=12530

Taoiseach drops heavy hint on rail line
By HARRY KEANEY
SUGGESTIONS that the Western Rail Corridor could be opened entirely in three years for € 250m were described by Taoiseach Bertie Ahern during his visit to Sligo as "not helping the cause."
Asked about the reopening of the Claremorris/Collooney section of the rail line during an exclusive interview with The Sligo Champion, Mr. Ahern was sticking closely to the report by Mr. Pat McCann, chairman of the expert working group on the WRC.

"There were people around stating before the report came out that the whole lot could be done in three years for € 250m. Now I think people who are doing that aren't helping the cause, and I just think we should keep to the factual basis of it. Let's get on with it but I think we should start and try and follow the report," Mr. Ahern said.

He added that Mr. McCann, in his report, divided the line into five sections.
"So I think we have to be clear first of all he wasn't putting it all in one. But his general recommendation is that if the line is to be restored it should be done on a phased basis starting with the section that appears to have the greatest viability, and that is the section from Ennis to Athenry," said Mr. Ahern.

ishmael whale

I was reading a paper Frank Dawson on the West on Track website here http://www.westontrack.com/news137.doc when I felt distinctly chuffed by this

How often have we heard the remark that if it were not for all the subsidies and social welfare cheques the West would sink like a stone in the Atlantic never to be heard of again but in tales of Fionn Mac Umhaill.

Of course, we don’t hear that very often. We hardly hear it at all. In fact, apart from me posting here, has anyone drawn public attention to the CSO data that illustrates the plain fact that Dublin and the Mid East region pays the lion’s share of net taxes on households while, for example, Mayo is a net recipient of state income support? And that the West has faster commuting times, small class sizes and high third level participation rates by national standards which suggests they get a very fair shake from the country, despite the hype about their alleged 'neglect'?

So, if you’re reading Frank, I’m delighted that my contributions have weighed heavily enough on you for you to feel it necessary to address them in your submission to the Oireachtas. However, I’d be more impressed if you simply acknowledged that the West does damn well out of state investment and starting working from there.

Like much WOT material, the paper is high on reality avoidance. For example

My point is that the demand on the Sligo, Mayo, Roscommon and Galway corridor is almost equal to the combined demand on the Sligo Mayo Roscommon and Galway to Dublin corridors.

Presumably his measure of population on the Galway to Dublin corridor is an attempt to avoid noticing that traffic on the route benefits from the simple fact that Dublin is at one end and Galway is at another. Of such evasion is the West On Track case made. Not for nothing are they known as West On Drugs.

There also an attempt to rewrite the McCann report which, sensibly from a WOT perspective, simply didn’t comment on what proposed benefits might come from the WRC because, ahem, there aren’t actually any. The suggestion in this paper seems to be that a McCann committee subgroup said WRC could expect 1.4m journeys per year. By comparision (in figures cited by the WDC) Dublin Galway saw 1 million passengers in 2001. This calm suggestion that potential traffic between Sligo and Galway will be greater than Dublin Galway, and twice Dublin Limerick, is simply ludicrous. http://www.wdc.ie/publications_submissions/railstudy.pdf

He also repeats the usual misrepresentation of the Ennis Limerick service. Usage of the Ennis Limerick service has been mediocre. What makes the service work is the enhanced Dublin Ennis connectivity. But, of course, that simple reality coupled with the lack of use of the Limerick Waterford service is simply ignored because of the obvious relevance of this practical experience to the case for forgetting about the WRC. If Limerick Ennis is really just Ennis Dublin, then where’s the need to give Ennis a second connection to Dublin via Galway?

On the final McCann conclusion, he says

McCann conceded that re-opening Claremorris to Sligo would be very difficult to justify except on the grounds of balanced regional development.
That’s sounds to me like our national policy towards balanced regional development is optional.

No, just that balanced regional development is not helped by backing every demand for a white elephant. If Western Development campaigners put more effort into reflecting on what might actually be useful, rather than dreaming up tortuous arguments defending any old project so long as it has ‘Western’ in it, the country would be all the richer.

dowlingm

The biggest threat to the WRC is from Bus Eireann - they are ramping up Cork-Galway services so much that rail on that stretch of the WRC is fairly uncompetitive given (a) the wide route and (b) rail doesn't serve Shannon. Why would you wait for a train that takes the same length of time as a bus when the bus leaves at a more convenient time?

JackieChan

dowlingm wrote:

The biggest threat to the WRC is from Bus Eireann - they are ramping up Cork-Galway services so much that rail on that stretch of the WRC is fairly uncompetitive given (a) the wide route and (b) rail doesn't serve Shannon. Why would you wait for a train that takes the same length of time as a bus when the bus leaves at a more convenient time?

...and of course the far cheaper price

murphaph

.....and as the N18 is dualled further north and the N17 is improved, the bus will actually be faster than the train on many streches of the route corridor.

Victor

The McCann Report is available here: http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=6645&lang=ENG&loc=845

PandaMania

The Western Rail Corridor was doomed as soon as P11 issued the press release saying it was a waste of money which could be better spent elsewhere. There was no stopping that cat once it was let out of the bag. From that point on it was only a matter of a common concensus being arrived at by all rational and honest folks and groups. The findings of the McCann Report was a validation of the P11's stance.

In reality, it was the original WoT Costings and "Expert" Report, which really killed West on Track. It was so off the wall and bizzare and lost in a world of fantasy and extreme speculation that it was only a matter of time before somebody pointed this out. If P11 did not do it, others would have done so eventually.

The greatest tragedy of all this is that there is indeed much scope for developing rail services in the West of Ireland which was lost in WoT agenda. The Western Rail Corridor, 3 railcars a day from Sligo to Limerick is dead now. This surreal chapter in Irish transport history is now over and the momentum back towards reality based rail investment for the West of Ireland in terms of developing viable commuter services now has a chance of happening.

The best quote I ever heard regarding the WRC was "We found a rail line so we have to run trains on it - we found a wedding dress so we have to get married"

PandaMania

...and they have even termed the service The Western Bus Corridor...and all the buses on the route now carry the branding with a graphic of a big aeroplane with SHANNON beside it...

ishmael whale

PandaMania wrote:

The Western Rail Corridor, 3 railcars a day from Sligo to Limerick is dead now.

I truly hope it is dead, but the corpse is doing a lot of twitching

http://www.westontrack.com/news138.htm
Article from Irish Times website: Ireland.com October 2005
….. There are no other major infrastructure projects on the menu for the West. In a democracy, we must have parity of esteem for the regions…

I’m not sure he’s right when he says there no major infrastructure projects in the West, although I do have the feeling that they don’t have the same major infrastructure deficit as the East.

Its also interesting to note that, coupling the extract below from the Dail Debates with Olivia Mitchell’s comments elsewhere, Fine Gael seem to be supportive of the WRC but opposed to the Interconnector. Yes, we all hope this posturing would evaporate if they were actually elected. But the fact that this is how the rhetoric pans out illustrates the strange facination the political process has with nutty schemes in the West.

http://groups.msn.com/IrishRailwayNews/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=1&ID_Message=27412
Adjournment Debate. - Rail Services October 18
Mr. Connaughton: The case for the western rail corridor has been well made. … To achieve viable regional and spatial development, few projects could bring as much economic, social, cultural and environmental benefit to the area stretching from Cork to Limerick to Sligo as the western rail corridor. The western rail corridor committee has applied the litmus test under several headings to the project and on all fronts it passes the evaluation with flying colours….. The least the Government can do, given it has decided to put a new railway line from Dublin to Kildare, announced last week, is to approve the restoration of the western rail corridor forthwith.

Finally, its always nice to see a little unreconstructed Western whinge. I particularly enjoy the bit about “the east of the country has progressed at the expense of the west” when, as we know, the actual situation is the East has managed to progress despite the expense imposed on it by the West.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news.aspx?id=1835
Ireland’s Western Rail Corridor ‘Stalled’
20 Oct 2005
Galway East Deputy Paddy McHugh (Ind) claimed that a commitment given by the Taoiseach (prime minister) that the Western Rail project would form part of a ten-year transportation programme had not been met as this programme had not yet been produced, reports The Galway Independent. ….“The east of the country has progressed at the expense of the west for far too long and it’s totally unacceptable that projects for East Galway should once again be held up because of government indecision,” he continued….

jank

“the east of the country has progressed at the expense of the west” when, as we know, the actual situation is the East has managed to progress despite the expense imposed on it by the West.

That has to be one of the most ignorant things I have heard in a long while.

Seriously who the fvck do you think you are?
Suppose we cull all those on the dole next because they impose an expense on "us working people"!
Why not parition the country more into "dubland" and the "countryland"
That would solve everybodys problems


See I thought you had a very valid point, but now all I see is an over-educated trinity type having his rant on an the easy issue.......well its not even on the issue, more against the western region as a whole daring to try to get something for itself.

How dare those fools eh! Let them eat patatoes forever is what I say!:mad:

Yours is the attitude that strikes resembelences when millions were starving in rural areas that corn to feed all was being exported from this country by those very same over-educated types!

[/rant]

murphaph

yawn. Ishmael is merely pointing out that the gombeen politicians west of the Shannon who constantly complain about the west being hard done by are all completely ignoring (or ignorant of) the FACT that taxpayers in eastern households (and Cork households) all pay more tax (in the case of Dublin, hundreds of millions of euro) than is spent in their regions. This surplus money goes to the west in the main yet they perpetuate the falsehood that the west is subsidising the mosherways in Dubalin etc.

jank

I would like to get evidence on that?
Links??

ishmael whale

jank wrote:

That has to be one of the most ignorant things I have heard in a long while.

Seriously who the fvck do you think you are?

Bear in mind that my comment is in response to (yet another) Western based politician suggesting that the West subsidises the East. You seem to comfortable enough with someone perpetuating that myth, but if someone attempts to draw attention to the reality of the situation they’re an over-educated trinity type having his rant on an the easy issue.

Personally, I’d love to see regional balance in the language of debate. We have national infrastructure problems. We won’t solve them by allowing the perpetuation of the myth that the West is in some way neglected.

You want links to substantiate what I’m saying. Fine, I’ve posted this stuff up before but here we go again.

Dublin households pay €5,474 million in tax and receive €3,939 million in transfers, yielding a net €1,535 million. Mid East Region households (Kildare, Meath, Wicklow) pay €1,759 million in tax and get €1,143 million transfers, yielding a net €616 million.

Overall Irish households pay €15,047 million in tax and receive €13,174 million in social transfers. The surplus of €1,873 million can be largely attributed to the Dublin and Mid East regions combined net contribution of €2,151 million.

It’s a simple – but not simplistic – fact that Dublin and the Mid East region is an income generator for the country. That’s one of the reasons why the East’s massive infrastructure deficit is a matter of national concern.
http://www.cso.ie/releasespublications/documents/economy/current/regincome.pdf

The plain fact is the West does not have much of a transport problem, as these statistics from the Western Development Commission illustrate:

http://www.lookwest.ie/lookwest/Home/WestLiving/tabid/105/Default.aspx#Less_Time_in_the_Car_–_More_Time_for_You_

75% of people in the West spend 30 minutes or less getting to work
Only 1 in 20 spend more than an hour
Average commute time is about 20 minutes
1 in 7 people in the Dublin area have to travel for over an hour to get to work each day

Similarly, the West gets more than the national average in the educational sector.

http://www.lookwest.ie/lookwest/Home/WestLiving/tabid/105/Default.aspx#_Your_Child’s_Education
A higher share of young people go to college than anywhere else in the country
56% of all 17-18 year olds in Galway and 55% in Mayo and Sligo go to college – compared with 44% nationally
Children also start out on the right foot as primary schools in the West generally have smaller class sizes.
Average pupil-teacher ratios in primary schools are considerably lower than in Dublin and surrounding counties e.g. an average of about 17 pupils per teacher in Mayo compared with 22 pupils in Kildare.

Take the feeling you had when you read my post above. That’s exactly how I feel when someone from the West tries to brush over the East’s problems. The only difference is the case for infrastructure for the East is based on need, not myth.

dowlingm

jank

the fact is that Deputy Connaughton is "economical with the truth" (he is obviously not a liar, because to call him that would be to invite his lawyers to sue boards.ie, and he has parliamentary privilege to say this).

The WRC did NOT pass with flying colours in the McCann Report.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Railway_Corridor#The_Expert_Working_Group_Report
(disclaimer - I wrote this section of the wiki article)

A grudging ok for Ennis Athenry and Athenry Tuam was given. Above Tuam was considered "subject to freight flows" and above Claremorris "let's look at it in three years, but it will cost as much to open as from Ennis to Claremorris".

For a report written in large part by interests representing the West to be so grudging in its conclusions was a serious rebuff to the Sligo to Cork promoters, and actually justified Platform 11's view that incremental implementation with emphasis on Limerick and Galway commuter rail was imperative. Read the report (linked from the wiki), it's an easy read compared to many of its type. To compare the report with a more complete study, consider the Cork Suburban (Mallow/Cobh/Midleton & Youghal) report written by Ove Arup for IE:
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/2558.pdf

This report also specifically excluded operating costs and costs of equipment acquisition, these were to be recommended to be considered by an implementation group. No implementation group has yet been appointed by the Minister. For the WRC to be approved before an implementation group has reported with costings would be to put an "unfunded mandate" on IE which they will not accept - look at Dick Fearn's "give us the money and we'll do the job" line to the Transport Committee.

The West of Ireland has gotten less money on a "per hectare" basis but let's remember that the government abandoned provinces for the "BMW" contortion to keep the West within the criteria for EU assistance.

Even with the WRC line reopened a lot of the old stations must never be reopened for "intercity" but instead concentrate on direct services e.g.

Sligo-Charlestown (connect via bus to Knock Airport)-Claremorris-Tuam-Athenry-(connect to Galway)-Gort-Ennis-Sixmilebridge (connect or better still route to Shannon)-Limerick

Reopening all the tuppenny ha-penny stations will only reward the local councils who insist on allowing one-off housing. Even now the councils who scream about the WRC persist in approving them despite the guidelines and the example of the Cork Area Strategic Plan which has gotten the go-ahead for Midleton reopening and Mallow line suburban stations. They could have stamped their feet and demanded Youghal reopening but instead took what was on offer knowing that success would bring more.

Every euro spent in the Foxrock-Deans Grange electoral division affects 26.6 people per hectare (http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/vol1_entire.pdf) - compare this to the 0.41/hectare in Collooney. Those 26 and a half people are entitled to their service to the same level as the person in Collooney and when you are providing it via rapid transit such as DART and LUAS it's easier to justify huge capital costs when you measure the cost in euro/passenger-km.

jank

Every euro spent in the Foxrock-Deans Grange electoral division affects 26.6 people per hectare (http://www.cso.ie/census/documents/vol1_entire.pdf) - compare this to the 0.41/hectare in Collooney. Those 26 and a half people are entitled to their service to the same level as the person in Collooney and when you are providing it via rapid transit such as DART and LUAS it's easier to justify huge capital costs when you measure the cost in euro/passenger-km.

I have no problem with that at all, but I do have a problem with the attitude expressed by Ismahel. Its the attidue that got up my nose. As if the West was holding the rest of the country down.

Dublin households pay €5,474 million in tax and receive €3,939 million in transfers, yielding a net €1,535 million. Mid East Region households (Kildare, Meath, Wicklow) pay €1,759 million in tax and get €1,143 million transfers, yielding a net €616 million.

Overall Irish households pay €15,047 million in tax and receive €13,174 million in social transfers. The surplus of €1,873 million can be largely attributed to the Dublin and Mid East regions combined net contribution of €2,151 million.

Transfers? Is that a new word for investment. Interestingly the is no mention of the West, only the "rest of ireland". You know that there are 3 other provinces in Ireland
They are the wrong facts im looking for anyway and may I add very selective and good at portraying a misguided truth.

Household income is all well in good but how much is invested back?
Id like to know how much of taxpayers money gets spent with regards Infrastructure investment in the Dublin region compared to ALL of the West.

Simplistic right?

Its funny that you use a website that promotes the west, a website that I assume would support this railway corridor.
Also those facts sourceless, are they from the CSO. It doesn't say?
Can you shed light on this?

murphaph

jank wrote:

I have no problem with that at all, but I do have a problem with the attitude expressed by Ismahel. Its the attidue that got up my nose. As if the West was holding the rest of the country down.

Well, not one Connaught county's household taxes exceed the social transfers received in those counties, they all require a subsidy from the East and Cork, so if we're going to be really brutally honest about it then yes, the west does 'hold' the rest of the country back, however we accept that, sadly the politicians west of the Shannon like to perpetuate the myth (lie) that the west subsidises the east.

jank wrote:

Transfers? Is that a new word for investment. Interestingly the is no mention of the West, only the "rest of ireland". You know that there are 3 other provinces in Ireland
They are the wrong facts im looking for anyway and may I add very selective and good at portraying a misguided truth.

'Social transfers' refers to all government spending in the respective county. Every county and region is listd individually in the link Ishmael provided so I don't know where your perceived ambiguity stems from. So they're "not the facts you're looking for" eh? Classic statement! Eh, because they disagree with what you want to be true?

jank wrote:

Also those facts sourceless, are they from the CSO. It doesn't say?
Can you shed light on this?

Well it's hosted on the cso.ie site, so it'd be pretty poor form of their webmaster if it's not their data :rolleyes:

dowlingm

jank

social transfers became investment under UK Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer Gordon Brown when his spindoctors told him taxpayers hate the word spending.

As for figures etc., why don't you do some research too rather than have ishmael, murphaph and me spoon feed you?

LookWest is maintained by the Western Development Commission, and they in turn do support the WRC:
http://www.wdc.ie/publications_reports/rail_review.doc

Personally I think it's a bit too blunt to simply place all the emphasis on population density - you can't incentivise people to move out of high-cost areas like the GDA without providing the infrastructure for them to do so. However, very low density areas cannot support rail service. Thus it is necessary to concentrate on rail connected county towns (see previous WRC proposed route) and to refocus rail in places like SE Leinster (Wexford-Waterford rail). The local quangos like WDC can publish nice websites but its the county and urban councils who can make things happen, as we have recently seen in Nenagh. Unfortunately the government chose not to offend anyone so the Spatial Strategy turned into a farce rather than something that could really have worked, instead it makes the New Sacred Heart City for the West look more professional.

In Ontario we have recently seen the provincial and federal government allocate part of their gasoline taxes to transit, using a two part share - part per capita and part by transit ridership.

Cities have higher transit usage per capita, towns average, villages little, so therefore the first tranche benefits large towns with little existing transit because they get money to expand, the latter benefits cities with substantial existing transit usage to renew their fleets. In small villages, it's more cost effective to direct people to Park and Ride in the nearest town.

ishmael whale

Murphaph has said what needs to be said in response to your post.

jank wrote:

Its the attidue that got up my nose. As if the West was holding the rest of the country down.

If you can drop the Western mindset for a minute, can you recognise that comments like the one I quoted above saying “The east of the country has progressed at the expense of the west for far too long” are commonplace. Are you really so surprised that I find this attitude gets up my nose?

jank wrote:

Also those facts sourceless, are they from the CSO. It doesn't say?
Can you shed light on this?

I take it you are referring to the Western Development Commission figures published on their lookwest.ie site. I take you are not trying to pretend that the WDC is an unreliable source of basic data on the Western region.

jank wrote:

They are the wrong facts im looking for anyway and may I add very selective and good at portraying a misguided truth.

You seem confused at my presentation of information. I’ll try again.

1. It is frequently alleged that Western taxpayers get nothing for their money, as its all spent in the East. I’m pointing out that tax collected in the West tends to go right back in the form of social transfers. In the CSO publication I have posted at page 13 you’ll see figures broken down by county and region. The West (defined as Galway/Mayo/Rsocommon) paid €1093m in tax and received €1318m in social transfers. So, plainly, tax paid by Western people make no contribution at all to the East as it never leaves the Western region. In fact, the West gets a net €200m in social transfers from the rest of the State.

2. That leaves the possibility, as you say, that the West gets second class public services – i.e. that the West might make no contribution to national finances, but it gets nothing back either apart from its net receipts from social transfers. That’s where the statistics from the Western Development Commission come in. They suggest the West does not have a transport problem, and that it is educationally advantaged. This suggests that the West does get a fair shake out of national resources. Put another way, if the West doesn’t get a fair shake where is that shown? Certainly not in the area of rail services, where the West already has (in Irish terms) plenty of coverage.

The bottom line is, pure and simple, that the statement “The east of the country has progressed at the expense of the west for far too long” is totally at variance with reality. The West enjoys reasonable public services, provided by taxes raised outside the region and chiefly in the Mid East/Dublin region. Or, in my blunt reversal of Galway East Deputy Paddy McHugh’s statement, the East has progressed despite the expense of supporting the West. That doesn’t mean we should cut the West’s umbilical. It simply means Western representatives should recognise that the West gets a very fair shake out of state funds, instead of perpertuating this myth of neglect. Specifically, the WRC is pointless in any case, and cannot be justified on grounds that ‘the West gets nothing’.

The West is relatively well provided with services and infrastructure. Now its time to pay some attention to the East.

Victor

Can you remind me of the definition of "social transfers"?