Western Rail Corridor

PandaMania

Sligo Champion Thu November 24th 05

Transport planners told to 'get real' on rail re-opening
By Michael Moran

CAMPAIGNERS lobbying for the re-opening of the Western Rail Corridor have said there is now 'no excuse' to deliberately delay the rebuilding of the route.

"Our transport planners need to get real about this project," Mr. Peter Bowen-Walsh, a Sligo based representative of West=on=Track group, has urged.

While West=on=Track have welcomed the announcement in the Government's Transport 21 plan that the W.R.C. would be re-opened on a phased basis, with the line between Ennis and Claremorris re-instated during the next ten years, disappointment has again been expressed that no timeframe has been outlined for the section between Collooney to Claremorris.

"Given that the rebuilding of the section between Ennis and Claremorris can be completed within eighteen months from now, it would seem to be totally unrealistic to place a timetable of nine years for the rebuilding of this section.

"No timetable has been given for rebuilding the section between Collooney and Claremorris," added Mr. Bowen-Walsh.

He further welcomed the announcement that this section was to be cleared and fenced next year.

Mr. Bowen-Walsh noted that Iarnrod Eireann's permanent way division had rebuilt 214 miles of railway during the past five years-50 to 70 miles of railway per annum and their rebuilding programme was now all but complete.

Relaying equipment was now all but idle and the sleeper production plan at Portlaoise was at "very low output levels."

"Iarnrod Eireann can build railways at a rate of 1.5 to 2 miles per week. There are 68 miles to be rebuilt between Ennis and Claremorris.

"If given the go-ahead now, Irish Rail's permanent way (Western Division), would immediately start repair and replacement of bridges, embankments etc, while the required new track materials were ordered into stock," he maintained.

In six months time, tracklaying would start and the project would be finished seven months later.

"We are allowing eighteen months from now to rebuild the entire railway from Ennis to Claremorris, while also clearing and fencing the Claremorris to Sligo section," Mr. Bowen-Walsh went on.

Cost

He pointed out that the cost of rebuilding the W.R.C. was €365 million-one percent of the €34 billion announced in Transport 21.

The Taoiseach had stated in March of this year that the funding was already with the Department and would be ring fenced for this project, the West=on=Track representative recalled.

"There is currently €250 million owing to the BMW region for public transport alone. €477 million was promised to the BMW region. However, just over €200 million has been spent and there is no sign of the balance being spent in the remaining fifteen months of the plan," he claimed.

Commencing the rebuilding of the W.R.C. now would have many advantages in terms of Government policy, in that it would eliminate the public transport underspend of €250 million in the BMW region; would deliver on the National Spatial Strategy; would leave no one in doubt as to the Government's commitment to balanced regional development; support the decentralisation policy and would show decisively that where there were no legislative procedures or land acquisition barriers, as there were in every other project announced in Transport 21, the Government could be decisive and move swiftly and efficiently.

"The W.R.C. should be started now in Claremorris as well as in Ennis. The project needs to be complete in 2007, while at the same time the line between Claremorris and Sligo needs to be cleared and fenced to prepare for reconstruction in Phase 2.

"Unlike the W.R.C. no project is 'ready to go' in the East. We know the excuses for dragging the project out over ten years. We don't know the reason," Mr. Bowen-Walsh said.

spacetweek

PandaMania wrote:

Sligo Champion Thu November 24th 05
Transport planners told to 'get real' on rail re-opening
By Michael Moran
...
<snip nonsensical rant>

That was absolute gold from start to finish.

murphaph

Ya gotta love this gem;

There is currently €250 million owing to the BMW region

MG, I believe Scotland's only other city of note beyond the M8 corridor is Aberdeen. The thing is, all the towns of any size along the proposed WRC are already rail connected!

dowlingm

Sent to the editor of the Sligo Champion - will it be printed I wonder...

Sir

your frequent articles regarding the Western Rail Corridor and rail between Sligo and Derry are interesting reading to those living in Ireland who study the development of public transit and those from Ireland who keep in touch with developments at home, like myself.

The fact that infrastructure underspending in the West is ongoing cannot be disputed, simply because the government were the ones who promised the money and didn't deliver. It is unfortunate that is central rather than regional or local government who dictates transport to Connaught people. West-on-Track rationalises its demand (it cannot be termed a request) for Colloney-Claremorris services by citing this underspend.

It is not in the interest of the West for the underspend to be spent on just any project. Should this rail section have 350m Euro spent on the track alone, without counting the railway vehicles and ongoing running costs, fail to produce any reasonable custom then this is a huge sum of money for the West to just write off, and will be used against the West for future investment requests, especially if that money is spent before the viability of the Ennis-Claremorris sections are proven. For 350m Euro huge quantities of regional bus services could be instituted between the county towns of Connaught, linking with the existing railways, with the regional airports from Carrickfin to Galway . Such buses could also travel along a dedicated busway which could be laid on a fenced off and paved Claremorris-Collooney alignment to link the Sligo line with the Mayo line, determining the passenger traffic a future rail line could generate. These bus services would be more likely to have an impact on those in the most underdeveloped parts of Connaught than the rail corridor, and Sligo could concentrate its lobbying on getting the Carrick on Shannon bridge made safe so Intercity rail vehicles could cross it rather than vehicles designed for commuting from Dublin to its hinterland.

The WoT/WIRC groups had significant membership into the committees which advised McCann Report and yet rejected his conclusion that Collooney to Claremorris was not yet ready for re-opening. The promised freight business will not transpire while rail freight is forced to bear all its costs despite its environmental benefits, as at Foynes Port. In contrast, twenty five years of strategic planning work by Cork County Council to get the Youghal line re-opened has not borne fruit. When the Ove Arup study showed the Midleton-Youghal section was not yet viable, rather than holding out for more the Council got on with the job of planning for the line that was between Cork and Midleton. If anyone has right to feel betrayed by Transport 21, it is east Cork. Get real, indeed.
--
Mark Dowling
Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

MG

PandaMania wrote:

You want to explain this comment? What letter and what name and what publication this happened?

Calm Down. No need to sue!

---

>

"
Dear Minister..........


Yours Sincerely,

The Public Transport Users of Ireland"

Published Boards.ie 24/11/05

PandaMania

Nobody was suing anyone, just needed clarifaction.

How is that letter above bogus - it'll be clearly marked from P11? If WoT can claim they represent the "people of the West", then why can't P11 do the same with commuters? We have an open membership policy and anyone can join.

All the smug comments about P11 not reaching the "standards" of WestonTrack in halarious articles in the Sligo Champion and similar embrassing rubbish is more your cup of tea, well then good luck to you.

But you find that your view is not that of most Irish people. The Western Rail Corridor is not a major issue even here in the West of Ireland (yes I actually live here) among ordinary folk. This is the truth. If it was and we saw real proof that people wanted and WOULD use it we might reconsider our position on the WRC.

But as it stands reopening the WRC would be the worst possible advertisement for rail investment you could make and would only end up damaging the case for more viable investment elsewhere. This is an honest opinion, why can't you come to terms with it? I am not even on the Committee of P11 and if they wanted to become pro-WRC they would. Nothing I could say or do to change their minds. But that's not what is happening - P11 is perhaps more anti WRC than ever. You would think that it might have sunk into your head by now that P11's anti-WRC stance is not the act of one person, but is in fact the consensus of many intelligent folk who can think for themselves.

Why single out my anti-WRC comments on this thread, just read all the other posters (most of them are not P11 members). You'll find MG that you are very much in the minority on this one and all the smug comments directed at me won't make trains magically appear on Swinford Viaduct.

ishmael whale

PandaMania wrote:

If WoT can claim they represent the "people of the West", then why can't P11 do the same with commuters?

In fairness, the WOT autograph hunt means they can claim to have a wide basis of support.

This is not to say that P11 don’t have logic on their side, and certainly their letter says what Irish public transport users should be asking. But, for the sake of argument, who can P11 say has signed up to the Dublin Rail Plan? For example, Fine Gael seem lukewarm on the idea of the Interconnector, so unlike the WRC it can’t be said that its support by all Dáil represented political parties. Do the Dublin Chamber of Commerce support it? Do Westmeath County Council? Meath County Council?

I’m not suggesting WOT’s autograph hunt makes the WRC a good idea, and I utterly accept that any of the bodies they list on their website could be expected to sign up for any old project so long as it had ‘West’ somewhere in the title, and I don't doubt their 'support' is superficial. But the point is when challenged on what basis WOT can claim to represent the views of the West they can wheel this out.

To be in the same position, P11 need to have a similar autograph collection in favour of the Interconnector.

http://www.westontrack.com/index.htm
The WRC Campaign
The WRC campaign is supported by over 100,000 citizens' signatures; 12 Western County and City Development Boards; all west coast local authorities; 3 regional authorities; The Council for the West; Shannon Development; the Western Development Commission; The Border Midlands and West Regional Assembly; National University of Ireland Galway, 3,377 Community and Voluntary organizations, members of the Community and Voluntary Forum along the West coast; all the Dáil represented political parties; all west coast Chambers of Commerce; ICTU in the West; IFA; IDA; Ireland West Tourism, Local Development Agencies.

dowlingm

The County Council who has played by the book is getting the long finger (Cork CC) so that's hardly encouragement for the others. If the Dublin Area councils haven't been vocal about interconnector then as an IE project (always was, even early on when the then P11 was against it) it's IE's fault for not selling it, not P11s.

Victor

http://www.westontrack.com/index.htm
The WRC Campaign
The WRC campaign is supported by over 100,000 citizens' signatures; 12 Western County and City Development Boards; all west coast local authorities; 3 regional authorities; The Council for the West; Shannon Development; the Western Development Commission; The Border Midlands and West Regional Assembly; National University of Ireland Galway, 3,377 Community and Voluntary organizations, members of the Community and Voluntary Forum along the West coast; all the Dáil represented political parties; all west coast Chambers of Commerce; ICTU in the West; IFA; IDA; Ireland West Tourism, Local Development Agencies.

Then let them pay.

murphaph

Victor wrote:

Then let them pay.

Indeed, would those 100,000 people be so fast to sign their names to a cheque for say, 20m of track each?

D'Peoples Voice

Victor wrote:

Then let them pay.

Excellent point.

Victor,
I see you have included a good quote from Our Minister Cullen at the opening of the Loughrea bypass. See the last line from the following link

Referring to future transport plans for the west, Mr Cullen told reporters the Western Rail Corridor could be opened in its entirety if local authorities planned residential and commercial developments along a defined route.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=50442193&postcount=3

For a man whom I've no respect for, he obviously listens to the right people.

ishmael whale

dowlingm wrote:

If the Dublin Area councils haven't been vocal about interconnector then as an IE project (always was, even early on when the then P11 was against it) it's IE's fault for not selling it, not P11s.

To be clear, I'm not faulting P11 as they are a model of responsibly advocacy in the way they reflect and even invite debate on what makes sense before adopting a position. Neither would I want to see Eastern local authorities and politicians engaging in 'anything at all so long as its in the East' type advocacy.

But it has to be said that the political agenda in the East simply doesn't seem to engage on the issues that actually matter. For example, any proposal to improve Mullingar's rail service would seem to hinge on the interconnector, yet there seems to be no real engagement from either Westmeath Co Council or Mullingar Chamber of Commerce or anyone else who might be expected to have an interest in this.

It's not particularly P11's responsibility to line these people up, but they would seem like useful ports of call. That said, equally, even those of us who are not P11 members have a responsibility too. Personally, I do intend to raise the slow delivery of the interconnector (and the incredible waste of resources on decentralisation) with anyone who turns up on the doorstep looking for a vote in the forthcoming election.

ishmael whale

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Western Rail Corridor Cost= €365.7m
Luas Cost= €750m

Expected passenger no's on Western Rail corridor= 1.6m
Expected passenger no's on Luas= 20m

While I utterly agree with the sentiment behind your sig, can I point out two things. The €365m cost of the WRC is track only, as I understand it. Hence the full cost would actually be significantly higher. The Luas cost includes the rolling stock.

The figure of 1.6m for usage of the WRC is far from a solid estimate. As I understand it, as a point of comparison, in 2002 less than 1 million passengers travelled between Limerick and Dublin. I don't know if anyone has a scientific way of measuring expected Galway - Sligo traffic, but it would seem reasonable to assume it would be less than Dublin Limerick.

Zaph0d

ishmael whale wrote:

I don't know if anyone has a scientific way of measuring expected Galway - Sligo traffic, but it would seem reasonable to assume it would be less than Dublin Limerick.

Here is one paper discussing a formula for estimating rail demand.

The factors that influence demand include,

• population at both ends of the line
• service quality
• performance factors for alternative transport modes
• journey time
• frequency
• ticket price
• public transport links to the railway stations
• general economic activity
• incomes

Draw your own conclusions

Irish Times wrote:

The Western Rail Corridor can be reopened in its entirety if local authorities plan future residential and commercial developments along a defined route, Minister for Transport Martin Cullen has said. Lorna Siggins, Western Correspondent, reports.

Speaking after the opening of the Loughrea bypass in Co Galway yesterday, the Minister said the Government would fulfil its promise to reopen the Claremorris-Ennis section, as outlined in the new 10-year transport plan. However, a "business case" had to be made in relation to the entire route, he said.

Although there has been criticism because the first phase may take 10 years, the Minister said work would begin next year, and its completion would be a confidence boost in relation to further development. The Government was also intent on improving commuter services between Athenry and Galway, he said.

MG

PandaMania wrote:

Nobody was suing anyone, just needed clarifaction.

How is that letter above bogus - it'll be clearly marked from P11? If WoT can claim they represent the "people of the West", then why can't P11 do the same with commuters? We have an open membership policy and anyone can join.

I never claimed the letter was bogus – actually my original comment was tongue in cheek – but what you posted was not marked P11 anywhere. If WoT claim to represent the people of the West then they must be held equally accountable. Someone mentioned that they have 100,000 signatures, so that’s a reasonable support base.

PandaMania wrote:

All the smug comments about P11 not reaching the "standards" of WestonTrack in halarious articles in the Sligo Champion and similar embrassing rubbish is more your cup of tea, well then good luck to you.

Again, putting words in my mouth – I actually said that you didn’t reach my standards. I am not a member of WoT and have differing views on many aspects of the WRC.

As for smug comments, please remind me who wrote this:

“MGs you're a funny guy.

I once saw a site were Toilken fans had developed a mass transit system for Middle Earth with light rail for the Hobbits and TGVs for the Wood Elves to get to Rivenedell, but there was only a bus service to nasty Mordor.”

Strangely enough when I went back to find that quote, the first sentence had been edited out……………

PandaMania wrote:

But you find that your view is not that of most Irish people. The Western Rail Corridor is not a major issue even here in the West of Ireland (yes I actually live here) among ordinary folk. This is the truth. If it was and we saw real proof that people wanted and WOULD use it we might reconsider our position on the WRC.

Agreed but to be honest most people in Dublin are probably more worried about the weekends football results than about new rail lines. Apathy about rail is everywhere in Ireland. There is only a handful of the same people who post here. That is why I consider P11s tactics, stemming from the infamous (amongst the few who care) statement on withdrawing support for the WRC, to be a major error. Dividing such a small group was crazy. Since that, rail advocates have spent more time fighting themselves than anything else.

PandaMania wrote:

But as it stands reopening the WRC would be the worst possible advertisement for rail investment you could make and would only end up damaging the case for more viable investment elsewhere. This is an honest opinion, why can't you come to terms with it? I am not even on the Committee of P11 and if they wanted to become pro-WRC they would. Nothing I could say or do to change their minds. But that's not what is happening - P11 is perhaps more anti WRC than ever. You would think that it might have sunk into your head by now that P11's anti-WRC stance is not the act of one person, but is in fact the consensus of many intelligent folk who can think for themselves.

I have no problem with P11 having an opinion on the WRC but it is surely open to challenge. I do not understand, however, how P11 have reasonable policies on Galway/Limerick commuter/intercity but continue to abuse everything outside Dublin, except the token gesture (Midleton). Edit: <I'm quite happy with the Trasnport 21 plans for the WRC and I don't understand why P11 is so unhappy.> To be honest, and I genuinely apologize as this will probably offend, but I find P11 at least politically naïve and possible just plain naïve. Sorry again, I don’t want to offend but that’s the way I see it. I find it naïve that you intend to hand out leaflets in Cork & Limerick trying to convince them that it is better to spend money on Dublin than on them. Oh and before you say it, yes it is money spend on them as the WRC connect these cities with the West.

PandaMania wrote:

Why single out my anti-WRC comments on this thread, just read all the other posters (most of them are not P11 members). You'll find MG that you are very much in the minority on this one and all the smug comments directed at me won't make trains magically appear on Swinford Viaduct.

Finally, though I realize that I am a fairly lone voice here, that does not make me wrong and, in fact, I feel that most posters here are taking up some issues incorrectly. The perception seems to be that the WRC links a two horse town to the Ocean running through a bog. As for smug comments I refer you back to my earlier statement on this. However, I originally posted to encourage posters not to blindly accept Ismael Whales statistics without thinking them through. Though, I disagree profoundly with IW, he was the only poster who actually read my posts and gave them considered responses.

D'Peoples Voice

MG wrote:

The perception seems to be that the WRC links a two horse town to the Ocean running through a bog. As for smug comments I refer you back to my earlier statement on this.

Look MG, I've nothing against the money going to Mayo, that's not the issue. The issue is the project that's being chosen. €365 million is only a small amount of the overall Transport 21 budget, but does that mean it should be squandered in a county that is crying out for investment elsewhere?

Take a look at the linking up of the Luas in Dublin, it stretches between 1 -2 Km's, yet there are five routes put forward for analysis. Why are people in the West not putting forward other routes such as a commuter route from Castlebar/Westport to Galway via Claremorris? Westport is a tourist town, Galway is a city for working, in between you have large towns like Castlebar and Tuam. This might and I doubt it, but it might have merit. But at least it's an alternative route that reflects the population centres of today. As regards Knock airport, I think someone said on a thread here before that only 25% of people travel to Dublin airport by public transport. Could the same be said for Knock airport?
As regards Sligo, I think it may be better to start looking at linking that to Letterkenny/Derry via Ballyshannon, assuming both towns continue to grow as they have done over the past 10 years!

MG

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Look MG, I've nothing against the money going to Mayo, that's not the issue. The issue is the project that's being chosen. €365 million is only a small amount of the overall Transport 21 budget, but does that mean it should be squandered in a county that is crying out for investment elsewhere?

Take a look at the linking up of the Luas in Dublin, it stretches between 1 -2 Km's, yet there are five routes put forward for analysis. Why are people in the West not putting forward other routes such as a commuter route from Castlebar/Westport to Galway via Claremorris? Westport is a tourist town, Galway is a city for working, in between you have large towns like Castlebar and Tuam. This might and I doubt it, but it might have merit. But at least it's an alternative route that reflects the population centres of today. As regards Knock airport, I think someone said on a thread here before that only 25% of people travel to Dublin airport by public transport. Could the same be said for Knock airport?
As regards Sligo, I think it may be better to start looking at linking that to Letterkenny/Derry via Ballyshannon, assuming both towns continue to grow as they have done over the past 10 years!

But this is my exact point - it is not €365m for one county, it's €365m for several counties as far as Cork, Waterford and Rosslare. It's not just about Mayo! If its accepted that trade helps to create wealth, then lets develop infrastructure to allow "trade routes" develop. At the moment, virtually everything, including the railways, flow through Dublin - and look at the wealth that generates.

BTW I don't advocate linking Knock by rail, shuttle bus is fine and I wouldn't agree on Sligo.

Strangely enough, my position is not actually that different from most posters here except that I consider myself to be for the WRC and others consider themselves to be against it.

ishmael whale

MG wrote:

I find it naïve that you intend to hand out leaflets in Cork & Limerick trying to convince them that it is better to spend money on Dublin than on them.

Taking your general point, you are right to say that our political culture tends to be highly local. But that’s a large part of the problem, and has to be engaged at some level. Possibly Meath County Council won’t even be able to see beyond the reopening of the Navan line to the need for the Interconnector, let alone any wider engagement. But there is a need to at least attempt to focus people on a national agenda.

The situation we are in is a product of the inability of parochialism to deliver a coherent national strategy, and the continuation of that parochialism won’t provide a solution. People have to be invited to look beyond their immediate surroundings.

Will voters in Cork, Limerick and the other cities ever see that their interests lie with promotion of the Spatial Strategy, rather than joining in with the general anti Dublin fetish that just puts them into the same queue for resources as Claremorris and Nenagh? Possibly not. None of this may succeed. Quite possibly in twenty years time we’ll be an economic backwater again, with nothing to show for this brief period of prosperity except for empty rail carriages rolling out of Claremorris. It would be nice to think we’re capable of more than that, but maybe we’re not.

MG wrote:

The perception seems to be that the WRC links a two horse town to the Ocean running through a bog.

Unlike The Village Magazine, who seem to think the WRC is a proposal involving rail for Navan, people here are aware of what the WRC entails. For example, I suspect many of the contributors here have read the McCann report.

MG wrote:

Finally, though I realize that I am a fairly lone voice here, that does not make me wrong

Being alone doesn’t make you wrong. But the lack of a convincing case might be a fair indication.

I originally posted to encourage posters not to blindly accept Ismael Whales statistics without thinking them through. Though, I disagree profoundly with IW, he was the only poster who actually read my posts and gave them considered responses.

Fine, but now you’ve had the considered responses I’m left wondering what exactly is the basis for your profound disagreement. Have you any profound backing for that profound disagreement, or are you simply clinging to a certain view because that’s what everyone you know says and you don’t want to stick out?

dowlingm

MG

I think you'll find most people in Cork don't give a toss for the WRC. The bus service to Limerick and points north is so frequent and the road to Limerick has been so improved it will be very difficult for the train to compete. To claim WRC has anything to do with Cork is rubbish. Cork has been shafted over and over again in respect of Mallow-Midleton, played by the rules and instead is getting overlooked in favour of lines with far less planning support. If Mallow-Midleton was made operational when it should have been, we could now be looking at traffic numbers and the feasibility of extending to Youghal, or not - because it should be about putting rail where people want to travel by rail.

As for P11 - in addition to IC and Midleton they also support Galway-Athenry and greater Limerick commuter service provision, although their L-Train Mark 2 proposal is strangely delayed and they got into some unseemly snippyness about Limerick - Nenagh which looked suspiciously like sour grapes because IRN were involved in the Nenagh proposal. And before MarkoP11 jumps in, I'm just saying what it looked like.

If a shuttle bus is fine for Knock airport, why not have a busway between Collooney and Claremorris, and start the WRC at Ballina instead of Sligo? Then if the buses are chocka, you rip out the tarmac and lay track. If they aren't, you don't.

PandaMania

MG, with all due respects I am still at a loss to why you continue to believe that P11 somehow 'blew it' when we pulled the plug on supporting WestonTrack. The reality is the membership of P11 massively increased from that point forward with a whole new group of people who were the majority of people interested in rail transport today because they actually use it - the urban and suburban commuter and beleive me there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of them. These people never heard of RAIL magazine, nor are they lamenting the lack of freight on the Foynes Branch. This is where rail transport is going in Ireland - this were P11 is.

As for P11 being poltically clueless, I think you are slightly correct. We had no idea just how undemocratic Ireland really is, and how many decisions in this odd country are made not according to real need, but to what regional babies scream and kick the loudests while pushing their toys out of the pram. This is not our style because reality and people's need for a real quality of life and one not stuck in traffic will win in the end.

Cullen's comments about building up desitity on the WRC and his specific mention of Galway commuter in the Times the other is pure P11 agenda. He (or Monica) is listening to P11.

We are winning this war MG, by a slow grinding away at the poltical body politic and media with the truth and it is slowly but surely working. There are lads on the P11 steering commitee in their early 20's who do not know what a Beet Wagon is, nor Class 121 locomotive, but they have seen real rail commuting in Europe and real integrated ticketing/transport in normal countries and this is what they want in Ireland and they are hungry and they'll be still doing this long after the WestonTrack generation are long gone, or moved on to campaiging for an airport for Belmullet or what ever..

This is golden age of rail transport in Ireland and P11 are doing their bit tweaking that agenda to the point were the government's major transport plan "Transport21" even sounds a lot like "Platform11". See, we have even subconciously changed the language of how rail transport is even talked about and marketed at Govenment level.

Let's be honest here, the reason why WestonTrack did not get the line to Sligo reopened is because P11 sucessfully inflenced the McCann Report and they are terrified that we have 8 more years to do the same to the DoT regarding the Claremorris part, and they should be. If they had any level of real intelligence they would be lobbying Galway and Mayo CoCo like mad to build up planning densities between Athenry-Tuam and Claremorris and they could stop being terrified of P11 even more than they already are of us.

Look at WoT's almost Orwellian "thoughtcrime" reaction to anyone on IRN who voices criticism on the WRC on that group. The only comeback is "the people of the West!!!" kneejerkism and nothing else to back up their case and then the IRN managment may even ban the poster for tampering with their fantasy world of flying over from the UK to take photos of trains on Swinford Viaduct.

WoT deserve nothing other than for more and more people to tell them to shut up whinging and look at the real issues facing rail and transport in the West of Ireland which need to be addressed and it ain't making some priest's dream come true before he dies at taxpayer's expense. The Shannon Bridge is in such poor condition that IE cannot operate normal Sligo inter-city trains over it any more and incredibly there NO talk of replacing the bridge. When P11 first brought this up 2 years ago, the "railway community" in Ireland accused us of tabloid scaremongering. These same muppets are now on IRN complaining now that there are commuter railcars operating the Sligo Inter-City services ("gee, who'd a tunked it...!") while demanding that Kiltimagh be put back on the network.

Like I said MG, we have 8 years to gnaw away at the Claremorris political sop so stay tuned. If WestonTrack want a victim complex wait until Meath, Kildare, Clonmel, Cork and Limerick polticans and media are demanding that the Government provide a cost/benefit analysis on the WRC.

BTW Ishmale Whale always back up his points with facts and real stats and you don't, because you have none other than your own wishful thinking.

enterprise

PandaMania wrote:

MG, with all due respects I am still at a loss to why you continue to believe that P11 somehow 'blew it' when we pulled the plug on supporting WestonTrack. The reality is the membership of P11 massively increased from that point forward with a whole new group of people who were the majority of people interested in rail transport today because they actually use it - the urban and suburban commuter and beleive me there are HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of them. These people never heard of RAIL magazine, nor are they lamenting the lack of freight on the Foynes Branch. This is where rail transport is going in Ireland - this were P11 is.

As for P11 being poltically clueless, I think you are slightly correct. We had no idea just how undemocratic Ireland really is, and how many decisions in this odd country are made not according to real need, but to what regional babies scream and kick the loudests while pushing their toys out of the pram. This is not our style because reality and people's need for a real quality of life and one not stuck in traffic will win in the end.

Cullen's comments about building up desitity on the WRC and his specific mention of Galway commuter in the Times the other is pure P11 agenda. He (or Monica) is listening to P11.

We are winning this war MG, by a slow grinding away at the poltical body politic and media with the truth and it is slowly but surely working. There are lads on the P11 steering commitee in their early 20's who do not know what a Beet Wagon is, nor Class 121 locomotive, but they have seen real rail commuting in Europe and real integrated ticketing/transport in normal countries and this is what they want in Ireland and they are hungry and they'll be still doing this long after the WestonTrack generation are long gone, or moved on to campaiging for an airport for Belmullet or what ever..

This is golden age of rail transport in Ireland and P11 are doing their bit tweaking that agenda to the point were the government's major transport plan "Transport21" even sounds a lot like "Platform11". See, we have even subconciously changed the language of how rail transport is even talked about and marketed at Govenment level.

Let's be honest here, the reason why WestonTrack did not get the line to Sligo reopened is because P11 sucessfully inflenced the McCann Report and they are terrified that we have 8 more years to do the same to the DoT regarding the Claremorris part, and they should be. If they had any level of real intelligence they would be lobbying Galway and Mayo CoCo like mad to build up planning densities between Athenry-Tuam and Claremorris and they could stop being terrified of P11 even more than they already are of us.

Look at WoT's almost Orwellian "thoughtcrime" reaction to anyone on IRN who voices criticism on the WRC on that group. The only comeback is "the people of the West!!!" kneejerkism and nothing else to back up their case and then the IRN managment may even ban the poster for tampering with their fantasy world of flying over from the UK to take photos of trains on Swinford Viaduct.

WoT deserve nothing other than for more and more people to tell them to shut up whinging and look at the real issues facing rail and transport in the West of Ireland which need to be addressed and it ain't making some priest's dream come true before he dies at taxpayer's expense. The Shannon Bridge is in such poor condition that IE cannot operate normal Sligo inter-city trains over it any more and incredibly there NO talk of replacing the bridge. When P11 first brought this up 2 years ago, the "railway community" in Ireland accused us of tabloid scaremongering. These same muppets are now on IRN complaining now that there are commuter railcars operating the Sligo Inter-City services ("gee, who'd a tunked it...!") while demanding that Kiltimagh be put back on the network.

Like I said MG, we have 8 years to gnaw away at the Claremorris political sop so stay tuned. If WestonTrack want a victim complex wait until Meath, Kildare, Clonmel, Cork and Limerick polticans and media are demanding that the Government provide a cost/benefit analysis on the WRC.

BTW Ishmale Whale always back up his points with facts and real stats and you don't, because you have none other than your own wishful thinking.

Yawn :rolleyes: Where's the bed?

PandaMania

Yawn Where's the bed?

Sadly the one phrase you'll never heard a woman say to you.

Enterprise, my guest would be your bed it is still at your parent's house and probably will be well into your middle age.:D

MG

Ismael , my profound disagreement is on the interpretation of the figures. You say Dublin provides more and should therefore get more. I am asking why Dublin provides more and should/can this balance be changed. I would like to hear why you think earned income in Dublin is, on average, so much higher than the rest of the country (22% higher than Munster for instance). And I said that you did me the courtesy of reading my posts, not of understanding them.

MDowling, I disagree and think the WRC has everything to do with Cork, Waterford etc. Improving transport links & therefore trade between the smaller cities is the key to prosperity for these places. Also funding for Midleton is in the bag (before T21 was announced), is awaiting railway orders etc and has nothing to do with the WRC except that you will be able to travel by train from Midleton to Galway. As for your point re P11 and Galway/Limerick, I know this so why are they so negative towards Transport 21 which mainly and correctly caters for the southern part of the WRC first?

PandaMania, I believe you were wrong to throw the baby out with the bathwater. My interpretation of this time was that the whole thing was ill thought out. After all, at the time P11 did concede that Tuam-Galway was possible in the near future but not Ennis- Galway! Later they were hawking a central corridor which avoided population centres as an alternative. I’m not even sure where P11 stand now on these. P11 would have been better off simply shifting to a South to North approach on the WRC and would have taken a lot of support with them.

As for Transport21, it sounding “a lot like Platform11” is as much of Platform 11 as I see in it. The suggestion has to be made that if there are so many P11 supports among the hundred of thousands, that the final Transport document was a major failure on its part as it failed to influence the plan on quite a number of issues.

I’d much rather be saying nice things about P11 but I’m afraid your attitude is far too “with us or against us” and your portrayal of detractors as “trainspotters” is inappropriate for an organisation with high aspirations and also quite inaccurate.

Finally, to say that I have not backed up my points with fact and statistics is plain wrong and, more to the point, misunderstanding the entire exchange. Statistics are matters of interpretation and it was on the interpretation of these CSO figures that we were posting, something which you did not do.

P.S. Panda, please confirm if you received my reply to your PM as I received an error message and don’t think it got through. Thanks

enterprise

PandaMania wrote:

Sadly the one phrase you'll never heard a woman say to you.

Enterprise, my guest would be your bed it is still at your parent's house and probably will be well into your middle age.:D

Maybe it is

Anyhow thats a bit below the waist line Mr. Sheridan.

Btw how many signed up members do P11 have?

MG

enterprise wrote:

Maybe it is

Anyhow thats a bit below the waist line Mr. Sheridan.

Btw how many signed up members do P11 have?

Hw hasn't seen below his waist line for years :eek:

PandaMania

No idea how many members P11 has. Couple of hunded or so by now? I have no access to such information anymore. Below the belt, nah, just a similar cameback you handed me in this debate. I would not expect you to either. If you had of engage with a serious comment you would have got it. You got what you gave me oul china.

ishmael whale

my profound disagreement is on the interpretation of the figures. You say Dublin provides more and should therefore get more.

I’m not quite saying this. What am I saying is

1. The West gets a fair shake out of State resources, and in certain areas enjoys material advantages, so the point that is frequently made to the effect that the West is neglected or, indeed, that the West in some way subsidises the East is simply wrong.

2. The East is actually the region that has been underinvested in compared to need. Taking a quick example from the current topic, there is nothing strange about the WRC being closed, because rural areas don’t particularly do railways. However, Dublin does stand out among cities of its size and income by not having an integrated rail network.

The reason the East should be prioritised is because that’s where the need it, more than because that’s where the wealth is. The information I’m providing on regional incomes is in answer to the anti Dublin mindset, which pretends that tax raised in the regions is in some way subsidising Dublin when the reverse is the case. Do I take it you have no substantive problem with what I’m saying here?

I am asking why Dublin provides more and should/can this balance be changed. I would like to hear why you think earned income in Dublin is, on average, so much higher than the rest of the country (22% higher than Munster for instance).

This takes us back into the spatial strategy. But first, I think its necessary to acknowledge that Dublin has not achieved its position through some ‘infrastructure first’ policy. Quite the opposite – Dublin’s infrastructure is sweated and overused. It has a few mediocre third level colleges, a poor transport system and an undersized airport deliberately kept small in the hope that people would feck off to Shannon instead. Dublin’s continuing growth is against a background of efforts to starve the city in an effort to force development elsewhere – an attempt that has utterly failed.

Dublin has scale, which means a firm setting up here to sell across Europe has a reasonable expectation of finding people with the skills they need. Materially, that’s really all it has. Materially, that’s what the West lacks. Plus the West works at not allowing any one place to emerge. Hence, Galway can’t have an airport capable of taking jets in case it cuts the nuts off Knock, Knock can’t do more than ship emigrants from the UK home to see the relations, so the West ends up without proper air access etc etc. Meanwhile Sligo wants an airport as a totem ego. This is my key point. Considerable resources are invested in the West, but frequently they do no good because Western development campaigners follow a parochial and ultimately destructive agenda.(Cue WOT with the WRC.)

PandaMania

MG, my belly has what to do with making trains run between Limerick and Sligo. Is this an outburst to the end of the beet trains and you need to lash out?

There, there...fretnot. Large sections of the Limerick to Rosslare line with be mothballed in a few years so it won't be an issue any more. Like freight it'll all be a something coinsigned to history.

enterprise

I actually believe that the Limerick - Waterford route tied in with the reopened WRC will have a bright future. A direct train service 4 times a day from Waterford to Galway via Limerick? I would take that anyday over having to get a bus.

But then again P11 actually stands for Pale Rail and is not Ireland's National Rail lobby group as they proudly call themselves and therefore could not give a toss what happens to our rail network outside the pale.

Browsing around the IE journey planner it shows some good improvements to regional services in next years timetable. One small step in the right direction for IE.

PandaMania

enterprise wrote:

I actually believe that the Limerick - Waterford route tied in with the reopened WRC will have a bright future. A direct train service 4 times a day from Waterford to Galway via Limerick? I would take that anyday over having to get a bus.

But then again P11 actually stands for Pale Rail and is not Ireland's National Rail lobby group as they proudly call themselves and therefore could not give a toss what happens to our rail network outside the pale.

Browsing around the IE journey planner it shows some good improvements to regional services in next years timetable. One small step in the right direction for IE.

Fair enough. It that's what you believe then that's grand, nothing I or anybody else from P11 is ever going to change your mind. The next decade or so will be one of huge change in Irish rail transport and we can all come back to it then and see what what has panned out.