Western Rail Corridor

enterprise

Agreed.

Don't get me wrong. The DRP is needed as much as the WRC is. We need balanced development in the country and the WRC and ARC will help to spread development towards the west. Ever got the train from Cork to Westport? I have and its a pain in the butt going via Portarlington. Going via Limerick will be so much handier.

On the same note if all the plans proposed under T21 come on line it will be so much easier to get from Sandyford to Coolmine, plus many more journies will be opened up.

dowlingm

enterprise

Westport-Cork service will probably get a lot better post-clockface timetable as it should improve the connection possibilities.

However, I think the T21 plan to open to Claremorris should involve Ballina-Galway as the WRC bit and make Claremorris the connection point with Westport-Dublin rather than Manulla Junction.

As I say - I think the biggest (although obviously not the only) point of dispute is the Claremorris-Collooney stretch. Tuam-Claremorris I for one can live with even though I would prefer to see Ennis-Athenry and Athenry-Tuam proven first. Athlone-Mullingar should be opened before northeast of Claremorris ever is, since it adds options to the network people would actually use.

corktina

cork to westport via the WRC? that will take FOREVER.....better to change at Portarlington and travel inter city......

MarkoP11

The WRC is a totally useless venture if you are interested in long distance travel, the track alignment is full of steep gradients level crossings and most likely given the low frequency every station would be called at every time, so its slow even compared to other slow routes. Of course the demand would be miniscule for end to end, in fact those are the very reasons the line has passenger services withdrawn

Face reality most 'intercity' routes journey times can be beaten by car now. Bus Eireann kick the crap out of the full WRC concept already they serve Shannon journey times will only get better and they can call at every little village en route. Know when you are beat the population isn't there to make it work

Limerick Ennis Gort Athenry Galway has a fairly good case as it is both a regional link between the 2 largest population centres in the west and also doubles up to provide commuter services in Limerick and Galway

in 2005 it was faster to go from Ballina to Cork by rail than by bus, it doesn't quite work in the the 2006 timetable but its fairly easy to fix with hourly services. And it costs nothing in reality to do

http://www.platform11.org/campaigns/wrc/northwest_south_direct.php

corktina

can only agree with you there Marko!....

....and when the Ennis bypass opens in 2007, then the WRC will look very uncompetitive in deed for everything except commuter travel and shopping trips into the cities it will serve.....

as an enthusiast , i would love to see it re-open, but then again, i would love to see many things....such as a Steam Railway to Youghall maybe or the Valencia branch re-opened......or the County Donegal relaid over Barnesmore.....

Maskhadov

I have to agree about the time issues etc. But I still think a western rail line running from Donegal to Cork should be the long term objective. The WRC is a start at Im sure there will be small numbers to begin with but roads arent the answer to everything and we have to keep investing in the railway lines nationwide and provide as much alternative choice to the motorcar as possible.

corktina

there is already a railway line running from Sligo to Cork..........why do we need another one?......(and there never was one from County Donegal southwards.....)

WRC, if it happens(which I doubt) will be a local affair for commuters etc going into the cities of Limerick and Galway...It will stop everywhere and be very slow as a result of this.....Long distance route? I dont think so....

Maskhadov

corktina wrote:

there is already a railway line running from Sligo to Cork..........why do we need another one?......(and there never was one from County Donegal southwards.....)

WRC, if it happens(which I doubt) will be a local affair for commuters etc going into the cities of Limerick and Galway...It will stop everywhere and be very slow as a result of this.....Long distance route? I dont think so....

There was a rail network in Donegal. Im not exactly sure what the route was but if you ask me what is wrong with our railway/road network its too dublin oriented.

The fact of the matter is, if you connect two towns/cities with modern infastructure, people and trade will use it. A modern direct railway line up the west coast from Cork to letterkenny (connecting to derry) is the perfect solution.

Services should be running at 90mph though. Otherwise people will stick to their car.

MarkoP11

Maskhadov wrote:

Services should be running at 90mph though. Otherwise people will stick to their car.

IE can't even manage 90mph on the bulk of the current network so fat chance of 90 mph on the WRC, 75mph tops is the best to be expected on the WRC its just too full of curves, level crossings and steep gradients to make running faster possible. Bus would be faster no question

There never has been a heavy rail network in Donegal there was a 3ft narrow guage network. The only 5"3' section was a tiny section between Derry and Strabane which crossed the boundary

The numbers for the WRC indicate it will be a failure and require substantial support from government to maintain operation. People have to be realistic that money is limited and should be targeted at where it offers value for money, say you had 100 million to spend where would it offer the best overall result, its not the northern piece of the WRC, it Limerick, Galway and Cork where there are real and quantifiable environmental, accident saving and journey time benefits

Rail works in 2 basic scenarios
1 Point to point between large urban centres
2 Commuter services service a large catchment area
Neither is true of anything north of Athenry

corktina

except MAYBE Tuam to Galway.....and only then if substantial traffic could be gained at Athenry and Oranmore......

Donegals narrow guage system went North from Ballyshannon to Letterkenny and Derry(and a few branches..)...Also North from Sligo(ish) ran the SLNCR to Enniskillen and connected to derry/belfast...

even 75 mph max speed would be optimistic...75 kph would be more like it and the AVERAGE would be much much lower.....

intercity va Dublin would be quicker....

Everything in this country is Dublin orientated for the good reason that over a quarter of the population live and /or work there....

Victor

Maskhadov wrote:

But I still think a western rail line running from Donegal to Cork should be the long term objective.

As is draining the Shannon.

Maskhadov

no,
its balanced regional development as opposed to a Hu Jintao styled plan

corktina

Maskhadov wrote:

no,
its balanced regional development as opposed to a Hu Jintao styled plan

sorry, it just isnt a balanced regional development to throw millions of euros at something which could be acheived much cheaper some other way. Much as i love watching trains go by, i am realistic enough to realise that the areas where the railways have a future role are limited and reducing. The only real advantge they have is a reserved right of way into city centres, thus avoiding jams. Limerick to galway and return will take about an hour or less when the ennis bypass opens.....anyone want to give a "best estimate" of the time the train will take with 4/5/6 stops en route.....?

John R

Maskhadov wrote:

no,
its balanced regional development as opposed to a Hu Jintao styled plan

I just love this "Balanced development" phrase, the east gets a motorway so to balance it out the west needs one too. Are there a lot of people in Mayo afraid that all the building in Dublin will tip the country over or something?

corktina

John R wrote:

I just love this "Balanced development" phrase, the east gets a motorway so to balance it out the west needs one too. Are there a lot of people in Mayo afraid that all the building in Dublin will tip the country over or something?

Maskhadov

We need balanced development. Of course the west will never rival the east but at the end of the day something has to be built there.

This W.O.T scheme is hardly big money. A couple of hundred million out of a €30 odd billion is peanuts. I've no problem with it.

murphaph

Maskhadov wrote:

We need balanced development. Of course the west will never rival the east but at the end of the day something has to be built there.

I have a huge problem with this attitude which is rather simplistic tbh. Why does something have to be built there? The place has the lowest population densities in Ireland. scotland has a similar demographic model to Ireland with the vast bulk of the population living within an hour of each other along the M8 corridor, they don't feel the need to build things in the highlands 'just because'. A quick look at for example, a motorway map of Scotland is quite telling. Build the infrastructure where it's needed, not where it catches votes (that's the irish way).

Maskhadov

This isnt scotland. The highlands arent suited for econmic development. The west coast although rugged and largely rural does have a few towns of note and can develop a lot from what they are at the moment.

Cork Galway, Letterkenny/Derry should be linked up by road (2+1) and a decent rail service. If the government doesnt invest in transport then those areas will never develop and the cost of living in Dublin will continue to sky rocket.

corktina

there arent any towns of note...even Galway is tiny really........the best you can hope for from the wrc is a commuter type all stations limerick to galway and even that will need subsidising.....i cant see the need for a modern main road AND an Intercity rail llink....

murphaph

Maskhadov wrote:

This isnt scotland. The highlands arent suited for econmic development.

The same could be said for rural Mayo, could it not?

Maskhadov wrote:

Cork Galway, Letterkenny/Derry should be linked up by road (2+1) and a decent rail service.

I agree about the road, and it'll get that, but because the population is sparse roads are the best way to serve it. Rail simply doesn't work in areas of low pop density unless there are two large pull centres at each end. Sligo etc. is just a medium sized town in reality.

Maskhadov wrote:

If the government doesnt invest in transport then those areas will never develop and the cost of living in Dublin will continue to sky rocket.

The government is investing in transport in those places Mashkadov! They are currently building the N18 Ennis Bypass (HQDC) and this road is set to be HQDC all the way to Oranmore and the N17 dual to Tuam with 2+1 north of there and multiple road projects in Donegal. The west is already very well served by rail too. The cost of living in Dublin is like any major city, a touch exensive, so you advocate building in Donegal? Why not advocate higher density acomodation in Dublin with quality public transport serving it? People cannot expect a 3 bed semi and a 5 min drive to work, nor should they.

corktina

the "build transport infrastructure and prosperity will follow" approach was tried with the Canals ( and the railways to some extent...) it didnt work and the canals were largely white elephants....the canals simply made it easier to distribute manufactured goods in the rural areas (rather than encouraging industry to develop)

Maskhadov

Canals and modern day econmics are a bad comparison. However, the canals and riverways are brilliant for tourists. Just ask anyone in Eniskillen Co. Fermangh.

A proper railway service from Cork to Letterkenny (without going through Dublin etc) would provide alternatives than car for people living in northwest wanting to travel down along the west coast to Galway or even Cork. Its also an excellent way for people to commute to some of those cities.

At the moment there is little demand and a sparse population but which comes first the chicken or the egg. People will go where the best infastructure is. People wont live in regions with crap infastructure. Off course the west cant get a lot of investment because of the population difference, but it can get some.

The government can properly plan along the west coast without too much stress or cost over runs etc . The WRC only starts in another decade, thats a good timescale IMHO.

corktina

where does the WRC and Modern Day Economics meet? if that is the criterion none of it will open.....

canals are an exact model for what you are proposing....to open up and develop the area by providing the infrastructure......
people will not use the infrastructure to come into the area, they will use it to leave the area (maybe only for a day at a time..)......for better paid jobs and prospects in the city(s).....and they wont use it to establish jobs and industry in the area, they will use it as an improved means to import goods and services from the established areas........

murphaph

Maskhadov wrote:

People wont live in regions with crap infastructure.

Like the million people who live in the Greater Dublin Region who live with the worst infrastructure of any capital city in the old EU (and many new EU countries)?

Maskhadov wrote:

Off course the west cant get a lot of investment because of the population difference, but it can get some.

The West does pretty well as it is out of the East, let's not forget that! I'm not against spending in the west, I'm against spending unwisely (the WRC) in the west.

Maskhadov

The government is investing in transport in those places Mashkadov! They are currently building the N18 Ennis Bypass (HQDC) and this road is set to be HQDC all the way to Oranmore and the N17 dual to Tuam with 2+1 north of there and multiple road projects in Donegal. The west is already very well served by rail too. The cost of living in Dublin is like any major city, a touch exensive, so you advocate building in Donegal? Why not advocate higher density acomodation in Dublin with quality public transport serving it? People cannot expect a 3 bed semi and a 5 min drive to work, nor should they.

No, Im not advocating anyone to live in Donegal. What I am saying is that we need a island based economy rather than a dublin based one. The problem with Ireland is that it is too Dublin centric. Everything is in Dublin, government departments, most major companies, people etc. People who live in Dublin get the feeling that thats all there is on the island since everywhere else is tiny. There are other major cities(if you can actually call them that) in ireland that can be utilisied.

Of course Dublin will continue to grow. Semi-d's should be knocked down and medium dentisty at the least should be the norm. However the regions can grow too and ignoring them with a Dublin only policy is madness IMHO.

Anyone who wants to travel anywhere anywhere in Ireland has to go through Dublin most of the time. All Im saying is that the country needs other forms of transport than the inefficent car. Rail is the best alternative.

Cork, Galway, letterkenny/Derry are all relatively small towns but their popluation is expect to increase in future years and if the infastructure is there, their is an increased chance of growth being in a structured way and their can be bigger growth in population numbers. Ignoring the regions is foolish and will only increase the cost of living and reduce quality of life for people living there.

I dont know what the exact figure for car ownership but its not at the international norm yet. There will be a lot more cars on the road in the next decade.

Like the million people who live in the Greater Dublin Region who live with the worst infrastructure of any capital city in the old EU (and many new EU countries)?

We lived in a third world devloping nation until the mid 1990's. It will take us 2-3 decades to put in place a decent transportation network. Dublin should continue to get the lions share of the funding but the regions should get something as well.

The WRC is only a couple of hundred million and doesnt start for another decade. Its long enough away not to effect any roads not being built in Dublin and its what the people in the West wanted. I dont live in the west and dont have any problem with it.

murphaph

I believe that the likes of Cork, Limerick and Galway can be candidates for enlargement, but north of there is madness to be honest.

You say the car is "inefficient". It's pretty efficient if you choose to live in a one off house in rural Sligo and you want to get to Galway. The WRC is highly unlikely to be any use to the vast majority of Sligo/Mayo residents.

murphaph

Maskhadov wrote:

The WRC is only a couple of hundred million and doesnt start for another decade. Its long enough away not to effect any roads not being built in Dublin and its what the people in the West wanted. I dont live in the west and dont have any problem with it.

Come on, because WoT led a successful lobby campaign you reckon the people of the west want a WRC? I wpnder if you asked them did they want either a)a WRC from Derry to Limerick or b) a dual carriageway and/or 2+1 what would they say?

corktina

quite.....the residents of most of the west of ireland wont benefit at all from the WRC.....they would prefer decent roads which they can access right from their front doors without chnage....

what I would like to know is....do the people of Donegal really want to go to Galway or the people of Limerick to Sligo? (etc) I think if they are going to want to go anywhere it will be to Derry and Belfast from the north west and to Dublin from the west (or maybe Galway or Limerick). The people of Cork (of course) are quite happy to be where they are....:D

Victor

How about we build a canal from Derry to Cork?

Maskhadov

Victor wrote:

How about we build a canal from Derry to Cork?

You dont need to Victor, there are almost enough waterways already:)

The government is committed to building roads. I think they will start into 400+km of 2+1 when they finish the intercity motorway network in 2010. The people in the west will get their fair share of roads. Most of the Cork - Letterkenny will be 2+1. I dont see why they cant have an alternative form of transport as well as having the road network.