Western Rail Corridor

corktina

you wont need a canal when global warming melts the ice cap......

Maskhadov

exactly.. and how much of the CFC' are cars emitting ?

Victor

Maskhadov wrote:

exactly.. and how much of the CFC' are cars emitting ?

Some (vehicle air conditioning units), but more important regarding cars are CO2, soot, un-burnt and part-burnt fuel.

corktina

dont know....

how many trains an hour are you going to need to replace them?

Maskhadov

CFC's was the wrong word... carbon emmissions.

well the trains could be electrified and ran on the massive wind energy thats off the irish coast.

although trains arent pratical for everyone.

murphaph

Maskhadov wrote:

CFC's was the wrong word... carbon emmissions.

well the trains could be electrified and ran on the massive wind energy thats off the irish coast.

although trains arent pratical for everyone.

Indeed, and the world isn't going to grind to a halt when the oil runs out. Cars can run on renewable energies too! That electricity can be used to make hydrogen to use in fuel cells. The oil companies are heavily involved in the research but it's not exactly in their interests to make the switch from oil when there's still plenty left in the ground to make them trillions more dollars. The WRC is not gonna do jack sh!t for global warming I'm afraid.

corktina

or almost anything else......


noone has mentioned what the road drivers are going to feel about being held up at all those level crossings.....that is not going to be fun......

Maskhadov

AT the end of the day, the WRC is going ahead so im happy

D'Peoples Voice

Maskhadov wrote:

A proper railway service from Cork to Letterkenny (without going through Dublin etc) would provide alternatives than car for people living in northwest wanting to travel down along the west coast to Galway or even Cork. Its also an excellent way for people to commute to some of those cities.

If only they could travel up in the sky, inside some metal thing, and this metal thing could take off in Derry, or Sligo, or Knock or even Galway or perhaps shannon and it could land in Kerry or cork. We could call them aeroplanes or airplanes if you're a returning american. We could then heavily subsidise these flights so that people in the regions can fly around the country at very low prices.

Maskhadov wrote:

At the moment there is little demand and a sparse population but which comes first the chicken or the egg. People will go where the best infastructure is. People wont live in regions with crap infastructure.

Correct and neither will businesses set-up in low population areas where they are not guaranteed a god pool of labour. A solution may be to move large amounts of the population to a common area, then let businesses set-up in those areas, the money the government saves on long under-utilised roads can be invested in means fo transport can can carry people in high numbers, making efficent use of the transport provided. We could call these places cities.

Maskhadov wrote:

The government can properly plan along the west coast without too much stress or cost over runs etc . The WRC only starts in another decade, thats a good timescale IMHO.

Planning starts with local government, if local government need legislation then they can revert to central government. So have local government been properly planning where housing estates/once off houses are located? Whats that about a school being situated along the main N5, where children are collected by their parents parking along the main N5, carpark anyone?
Every county including Dublin needs proper planning rules & standards, and county plans need to be agreed before any part of the country can say what they want and need in terms of transport! You build for the future not the present, and I'm not satisfied by the county development plans of the west that this railway is needed for the future.

corktina

them airplane and city things sound like good ideas.....:D

Maskhadov

Suggesting air travel as a means for moving people within a small nation is absolute madness and a sure sign of failure to properly plan and deliver proper infrastructure.

I’m well away of what cities are, D'Peoples Voice. I’m also well aware of the problem with sparse population density and low population density. On this entire island there is only Belfast Cork and Dublin that are of any significance. Everywhere outside that is just a town IMHO. Of course if we had a few other cities of consequence it would be great. But we don’t. A population of 4 million people isn’t a whole pile and there are more people in Madrid than this entire country. We could move everyone to one location in Dublin and get the most bang for our buck.

However, the government has taken the notion of developing the nation economy rather than the Dublin economy. They are already developing the medieval styled road network into some like a modern European network. Road isn’t the answer to everything and you only have to look to England to find that out.

We don’t know what the population of Ireland will grow to, The “cities” like Derry, Galway etc could well grow into proper cities and we may be kicking ourselves in 20+ years that we didn’t develop other transport means apart from road.

The €365.7million price tag is peanut in my opinion. There will be billions spent in Dublin (and rightly so) and this small project is a nothing in terms of finance.

murphaph

Maskhadov wrote:

The €365.7million price tag is peanut in my opinion. There will be billions spent in Dublin (and rightly so) and this small project is a nothing in terms of finance.

It's also an incredibly optimistic price tag IMO, and it's not the end of the story because the WRC will lose a lot of money every year and require a very large subsidy from government. The question is, why bother subsidising what will never be a quality rail service when a very high quality road will run parallel to the WRC and the buses plying the route won't need a penny in subsidy because they'll actually be in profit?

corktina

a high quality bus service (complete with bus lanes where approriate) on the western corridor would be a much more flexible option because each departutre could vary to take in towns and villages within reach of either side of the route...the train has to run where it's tracks are.....and a bus service has no fixed costs along it's route..if a route is not profitable it can be amended to a better alignment or cancelled and the bus used elsewhee....the WRC will be fixed at what is built and if it isnt sucessful it will need a subsidy or it will close again.

sorry to appear anti-rail but I also have to consider what is best for the whole nation, not what a bunch of blinkered train-spotters would like to see happen.....

D'Peoples Voice

corktina wrote:

a high quality bus service (complete with bus lanes where approriate) on the western corridor would be a much more flexible option because each departutre could vary to take in towns and villages within reach of either side of the route.

sorry to appear anti-rail but I also have to consider what is best for the whole nation, not what a bunch of blinkered train-spotters would like to see happen.....

A high quality bus service eh?????
Does anyone have the one map of Ireland which shows BOTH the proposed high quality Atlantic Road Corridor and the Western Rail Corridor. The Dept of Transport have shown them on two different maps!
I'm not trying to imply that there is not joined up thinking or anything within our civil service!
Road http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-6.pdf
Rail http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-7.pdf
What price would you say it will cost to travel by train from Sligo to Galway?

Transport21 Fan

corktina wrote:

where does the WRC and Modern Day Economics meet?

Mayo or North Korea.

Transport21 Fan

Maskhadov wrote:

A modern direct railway line up the west coast from Cork to letterkenny (connecting to derry) is the perfect solution.

The perfect solution is for Western CoCo's to follow the lead of Cork and plan properly along rail lines, then they get what they want. Look at East Cork today, they got a 1,100 new pharma jobs along the Midleton line because they have spent the last 20 years working towards this. The location was picked becuase of years of groundwork to build up the population along the rail line and today is part the pay off. The company highlighted the commuter rail service starting in 2009 as one of the main reasons why they were setting up shop in East Cork.

The WRC is a different matter completely. It is 3 trains a day running at 40 mph and 90 level crossings over a vast rural trunk route which will only emulate the appalling passengers numbers on the currently opened Limerick to Rosslare line. When the Limerick to Rosslare line is a huge success and packed with passengers, then thoes on us on planet earth might come around to the thinking of those who tell us the Western Rail Corridor will be a huge success. The Connacht, Ulster (and Clare) County Councils seem to think one-off housing all over the place represents strategic planning.

The scary and depressing thing is... that making the WRC a real go-er really just involves polticians West of the Shannon coming to terms with the fact that the farmers/rural lobby are not the only people who matter and to be catered to, and that housing should be located in towns and cities along rail lines and not in the arse-end of everywhere else but towns and cities (to make farmers rich) located along rail lines. Simple really, but alas...

corktina

so you would stop people from building houses where they want? Some people LIKE living in a rural setting and dont want to live in towns or even villages

i agree with you otherwise......

Winters

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Does anyone have the one map of Ireland which shows BOTH the proposed high quality Atlantic Road Corridor and the Western Rail Corridor.

I have a pdf with that info. I got it from the Galwaycoco site but I cant remember where. Maybe its been pulled. I have it anyway if you want it.

Maskhadov

I'd say the trains would be running faster than 40mph !!!

murphaph

corktina wrote:

so you would stop people from building houses where they want?

Yes! It's called planning and some counties do it properly. Without the ability to deny people permission to build anywhere there would be chaos. I could extend my 3 bed semi to the front and ruin the building line. My neighbours would not be best pleased. Likewise, the countryside belongs to all of us, city dwellers too! We should have the right to maintain the countryside as countryside to enjoy in it's natural beauty and not one vast ultra low density housing estate. Rural Ireland is rapidly disappearing due to one-off housng that should never have been built. Far more stringent controls apply in Britain. They have matured enough to realise the value of not having the countryside populated by bungalows.

corktina wrote:

Some people LIKE living in a rural setting and dont want to live in towns or even villages

There is a stock of one off housing already in existance (far too much IMO) and the should have to buy from that limited stock, rather than building yet more.

corktina

oooh yes and you could make us all dress the same and drive similar cars too...:) ...if you ask me, you resent the better quality houses people in rural areas enjoy.

corktina

Maskhadov wrote:

I'd say the trains would be running faster than 40mph !!!

i think he meant "average" 40 mph....(in fact i doubt they will get very much faster than that anyway...

Transport21 Fan

Corktina, I have no problem with people living in the countryside if they wish.

Let me get that point clear first. I did not mean to imply this and I agree that we should not force people from doing this - but we should try and make urban Ireland and in particular, towns along rail lines more attractive to people so they will want to go there instead. So people will want to live in good vibrant towns and commute to nearby cities by frequent rail services and bus to the multinationals, public services, colleges and shopping centres. I know you agree with me on this that the WRC is nothing like this. It's primary purpose is to transport a handful of grannies on free travel passes to Knock on 3 pointless trains a day. Nothing else. I live next to the WRC in the largest town on the line between Claremorris and Sligo and I can tell you here that nobody would use it any more than the tiny numbers of people who use the current Western Bus Corridor services (that's another kettle of fish which should be looked at - decent rural bus networks which WILL work).

Look what we could get for that money if the rail lines around Limerick (Raheen, Sixmilebridge, etc) got it instead and were upgraded to commuter services. This is why I consider the WRC to be a crackpot idea - because it would be a massive waste, and the pay off for rail transport would be so little. This is why I loathed the pro-WRC types as they don't care about the success of rail transport in Ireland in terms of passenger numbers - it's all miles of rural track reopened and the services and day-to-day usability is not an issue at all.

BUT... I so sincerely believe the suburbanisation of rural Ireland is a disaster and is the ultimate rail transport killer and this is what I care about. I also love my country and I consider the Irish countryside to be for the Irish people and not just greedy farmers who are destroying it as they move into the property market. This is our country and not the IFAs.

So from my purely selfish and rail loving viewpoint...apart from the simply unsustainble aspects of this one-off rural housing mentality, it is the most effective rail transport killing mechanism there is. You need lots of people living close to rail lines in order to bring rail transport to its full potential. The Manooth suburban service is shining example of how rail can go from nothing to everything in such a short time. If rail transport is about nothing else, it is about population density and a nearby city to commute. Get this right and you are on a very fast upward spiral towards rail transport growth and investment which will never be reversed. (there are opertunities for this along sections of the WRC, but the pro WRC heads only think in terms of emulating the chonic failure of the Limerick Rosslare line).

I would allow genourous tax breaks and grants on people who restore old and exsisting farmhouses in rural Ireland instend of the O'Gracelands which have not only made rural Ireland an unsustainable suburb, but also ruined the tourism industry in rural Ireland. Look at the guidebooks and more and more they are very critical of what has been done to the Irish countryside and are increasling telling foreign tourists to avoid rural Ireland as most of the scenery has been ruined and there is simply no infrastructe in terms of places to shop, eat or even get something as basic as a cup of coffee. If is just mile after mile of socially dead one-off houses, sterile ribbon development and dangerous roads and nothing else.

Look at once beautiful Doengal and the low density slum it has been turned into in recent years. Meanwhile overseas vistors are delighting in our cities and are staying there - they get more of an Irish experiece there than say cycling along the road from Louisburg to Westport and seeing nothing but pink bungalows along the the hills around Clew Bay while trying not to be slaughtered on the road by the speeding drivers.

Rural Ireland is not accessible because there is no real public transport - there is no real public transport because there is no population denisty in the country towns to justify a frequent rail service or in many cases even a bus service. The private car is yer only man to see rural Ireland and the days of two blue rinse old Yanks in their Avis rent-a-car driving around looking for leprecaurns is over and not coming back. But rural Ireland still has not figured this out.

Some rural polticians (many in fact) naturally blame Dublin and some have even suggested that Dublin get no further tourism promoiton funds and people who arrive in Dublin airport should be forced in buses into rural Mayo where they can visit such spectaular cosmopoltian centres as Knock.

Now lets look at the situation in Europe. The country towns can have populations up to 100,000 and still have a quaint atmosphere about them. There will be good resturants, museums, cafes a whole range of accomadation and not beng at the mercy of the local Garda's wife running the B&B and taken in 1,500 Euro a night in cash for bland rooms in a giant one-off B&B with a greasy fry up in the morning.

You can't got for a walk because you might be killed by some ****wit speeding, you can't cycle because unlike in the UK and Europe there are no bikes to rent and roads are deadly and noisy. You can't hike cos the poor farmers have fenced off the land and you can only see mile after mile of pink bungalows anyway and the village has two pubs all with sky sports on giant screens and one Spar corner shop. During the summer there is no tranquility in the Irish countryside just the sound of thousands of strimmers cutting their 2 acres of front and back lawns.

There is nothing else you can get to without a car and the scenery is hidden behind the ribbon houses without footpaths and the din of a thousands strimmers - so you head back to Dublin, Cork, Galway and even Limerick cities at this point rather than spend another hour being marroned in the middle of "Parlon Country" totally depended on a handful of local publicans pulling pints of Budweiser and Carlsberg in between telling the RTE reporter than their village of 5 houses and 10,000 bungalows in the surrounding townlands offers "world class facilities for the tourist as good as anything in Dublin at Donegal, Mayo, Clare etc prices..."

I am not saying we should prevent people from living in the countryside, but they can live with the consequences themselves and stop whinging when the price of petrol, heating oil goes up and the tourists, large companies, facilities and public transport stay in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway. But I think it is highly important that we try to make Irish country towns along rail lines and near cities great places to live instead.

Which reminds me? Why was Limerick left out of T21 and Claremorris will more rail lines serving it than Limerick by the time T21 is completed? It is not fair to places like East Cork who played by the rules, only to build a vast and almost pointless rural rail line for a preist swinging his roasary beads over his head while surrounded by a handful of professional victim complexs who are not willing to consider the real changes the West of Ireland needs cos it might offend the Garda's wife who runs the B&B down the road or the local IFA secretary.

Build all the houses they want in the country, but they can live with the consequences. If the UDC's in the west had any sense they would see it in their interest to stop this carry on as well. But many of them are the biggest supporters of this carry on and then they demand the Western Rail Corridor as another fake solution.

D'Peoples Voice

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Now lets look at the situation in Europe. The country towns can have populations up to 100,000 and still have a quaint atmosphere about them. There will be good resturants, museums, cafes a whole range of accomadation and not beng at the mercy of the local Garda's wife running the B&B and taken in 1,500 Euro a night in cash for bland rooms in a giant one-off B&B with a greasy fry up in the morning.

Just a few things to add:
Everyone in the coutryside expects to have

a hospital close to their house

adequately manned police station nearby

broadband

perfect mobile coverage

reliable supply of electricity

connection to a gas pipeline

modern and well equipped schools

postal service

the list can go on.
Ireland's is a rip off culture has a lot to do with our lack of planning regulations in our countryside. Why, because many of the above services have the same fixed cost no matter where they are in the country, but the revenue income to cost of provision ratio varies greatly across the country, with the net effect that many of our services cost more than any other country!
Personally I think if we introduced Amercian style "state levied taxes", things may change.

Finally, and this is one thing I NEVER heard the Government nor West On Track talk about, and that is developers pay for the Western Rail Corridor. Why should people along the Loughlinstown/Leopardstown Luas route have to pay towards the development of the luas in their area but developers along the Western Rail Corridor don't

John R

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Why should people along the Loughlinstown/Leopardstown Luas route have to pay towards the development of the luas in their area but developers along the Western Rail Corridor don't

Because there aren't any developers along the WRC.

Proper economic policies cannot be applied to political follies so they just get funded 100% by the taxpayer no questions asked.

Transport21 Fan

I seriously think the WRC would be put on the eternal long finger after the next election. WoT are delusional, but one thing they say which is true is that the WRC could be up and running before any other aspect of T21. The fact that it was still pushed back down the timeline tells me that this long finger is only going to get longer as the Government places no value on the WRC and are trying to let it die.

John R

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I seriously think the WRC would be put on the eternal long finger after the next election. WoT are delusional, but one thing they say which is true is that the WRC could be up and running before any other aspect of T21. The fact that it was still pushed back down the timeline tells me that this long finger is only going to get longer as the Government places no value on the WRC and are trying to let it die.

Considering the astounding lack of detail in the T21 "plan" that could be applied to the whole thing. It is just the beginning of the pre-election vote-whoring.

murphaph

corktina wrote:

if you ask me, you resent the better quality houses people in rural areas enjoy.

Well, I could sell my Dublin house and go mortgage free on a 3000 sq foot monstrosity in Meath and drive an hour a day to work of I could stay here and cycle in in ten minutes as I do now. Quality of life != a big house in the country IMO. I like being able to walk to he station and get a train to town too, and then to be able to get a Nitelink home at 4am. These things mean a lot more to me than living in a big house with a field for a garden to mow. I don't accept either that the houses being lashed up on every third of an acre site the farmers can sell are of a high quality. Many are large, ugly creations, just copied from a previous 'design' and finished in a slightly different shade of red brick. Aesthetics are important to me, not just how big it is or how many cast concrete eagles I can get on the wall parapets!

Charles Darwin

Transport21 Fan wrote:

O'Gracelands

What an excellent description:D

dermo88

My blood boils at the very thought of this useless rail enthusiasts white elephant being built. If anyone has got any sense whatsoever, they should get a tractor, a plough, hook the two together and go as deep as possible, into the ballast.

And rip every sleeper to Smithereens from Athenry to Claremorris. Then spray it with QUICKGROW.

Because it will be about as socially useful as a fart in a lift.

Its the people in the likes of Limerick and Navan who need a railway. Its the people of East Cork. Its the people in the Northside of Dublin, in the suburbs of Finglas, Ballymun, and Swords. Its the travellers who land in Dublin Airport, who see a wealthy nation, an expensive country, consistently, utterly, pointlessly screw up again, and again, and again. They pay 20 Euro by taxi to the city centre, instead of 5 Euro by rail.

Its the people of Mayo who have their victim mentality, as if the jackeens are trying to do them over. The them and us. Its the same "seafoide" spouted by my Grandmother about rural Ireland being deprived, and left out.

Its economics. Its the economy stupid. My most hated rail organisation, the UTA and GNRB smelled the coffee in 1957, and 1965 and went a bit too far. But as far as I am concerned, CIE, did not go far enough, and should have closed this anachronistic heap of rubbish in 1966, not 1976.

What we have today in Ireland is a potentially excellent rail network. Its getting ready for a bright future. Adding the likes of this on to the network will merely serve to ruin the reputation of rail travel as fast, clean, efficient, and affordable. This line alone has received more quantity of words than it will carry in passengers.

On 5th April 1976, Locomotive B145 Left from Ballina to Limerick, with 2 coaches, with the only train of the day, and the last train over the railway from Claremorris to Limerick.

And thats the way it will stay, and in my lifetime, is the way it will stay. Unless Tuam, Claremorris, Tubercurry suddenly start blooming to towns of 20,000+ people.

In 2008, Mayo will have 5 trains a day to the Capital. If you want to go to Limerick, change at Portarlington. Simple lads, is'nt it.

The bus meets the train at Galway, Athlone, Ballinasloe, Claremorris, Castlebar, Ballyhaunis, ........see. Thats the way it should be. Thats what it could be. You change from the train to the bus.

But this is CIE. Joined up thinking does not exist.

Which is why people perceive that this white elephant is needed.

Which is why taxpayers will fork out their hard earned so GNR No85, or D&SER No461, or GS&WR No 186 will be put out in a fresh coat of paint, with 5 tonnes of coal, 4,000 gallons of water hauling a dozen packed out green Cravens coaches full of RTE cameramen, Transport Minister, Finance, EU Officials, An Taoiseach, An TUsual O Flahartha, An Milseain, An Ludraman, agus an Amadan. All drinking Guinnesss, Wine and Champagne. All eating Lobster and Smoked Salmon. That will be the busiest day the route will ever see as far as passengers are concerned.

And who is paying for all this. Guess who. Yes......its you, you sad idiot, stuck on the N3, paying stamp duty, paying road taxes, stuck in a 90 minute jam every day, because the same idiots on the cute choo choo going through bogland have'nt a clue how to help you.

I will quote a British Minister for transport from the 1980's, and paraphrase it for Irish purposes.

"Irish Rails mission is to provide a modern rail transport system, not joy rides for trainspotters".