Western Rail Corridor

corktina

murphaph wrote:

Well, I could sell my Dublin house and go mortgage free on a 3000 sq foot monstrosity in Meath and drive an hour a day to work of I could stay here and cycle in in ten minutes as I do now. Quality of life != a big house in the country IMO. I like being able to walk to he station and get a train to town too, and then to be able to get a Nitelink home at 4am. These things mean a lot more to me than living in a big house with a field for a garden to mow. I don't accept either that the houses being lashed up on every third of an acre site the farmers can sell are of a high quality. Many are large, ugly creations, just copied from a previous 'design' and finished in a slightly different shade of red brick. Aesthetics are important to me, not just how big it is or how many cast concrete eagles I can get on the wall parapets!

well good for you........but not everyone thinks as you do........(oh by the way 6 months ago, i moved into my local town,(just) so i guess im doing what you advocate and not spoiling the countryside....we have two buses a day , nearest station is 6 miles or so away.....

corktina

dermo88 wrote:

My blood boils at the very thought of this useless rail enthusiasts white elephant being built. If anyone has got any sense whatsoever, they should get a tractor, a plough, hook the two together and go as deep as possible, into the ballast.

And rip every sleeper to Smithereens from Athenry to Claremorris. Then spray it with QUICKGROW.

Because it will be about as socially useful as a fart in a lift.

Its the people in the likes of Limerick and Navan who need a railway. Its the people of East Cork. Its the people in the Northside of Dublin, in the suburbs of Finglas, Ballymun, and Swords. Its the travellers who land in Dublin Airport, who see a wealthy nation, an expensive country, consistently, utterly, pointlessly screw up again, and again, and again. They pay 20 Euro by taxi to the city centre, instead of 5 Euro by rail.

Its the people of Mayo who have their victim mentality, as if the jackeens are trying to do them over. The them and us. Its the same "seafoide" spouted by my Grandmother about rural Ireland being deprived, and left out.

Its economics. Its the economy stupid. My most hated rail organisation, the UTA and GNRB smelled the coffee in 1957, and 1965 and went a bit too far. But as far as I am concerned, CIE, did not go far enough, and should have closed this anachronistic heap of rubbish in 1966, not 1976.

What we have today in Ireland is a potentially excellent rail network. Its getting ready for a bright future. Adding the likes of this on to the network will merely serve to ruin the reputation of rail travel as fast, clean, efficient, and affordable. This line alone has received more quantity of words than it will carry in passengers.

On 5th April 1976, Locomotive B145 Left from Ballina to Limerick, with 2 coaches, with the only train of the day, and the last train over the railway from Claremorris to Limerick.

And thats the way it will stay, and in my lifetime, is the way it will stay. Unless Tuam, Claremorris, Tubercurry suddenly start blooming to towns of 20,000+ people.

In 2008, Mayo will have 5 trains a day to the Capital. If you want to go to Limerick, change at Portarlington. Simple lads, is'nt it.

The bus meets the train at Galway, Athlone, Ballinasloe, Claremorris, Castlebar, Ballyhaunis, ........see. Thats the way it should be. Thats what it could be. You change from the train to the bus.

But this is CIE. Joined up thinking does not exist.

Which is why people perceive that this white elephant is needed.

Which is why taxpayers will fork out their hard earned so GNR No85, or D&SER No461, or GS&WR No 186 will be put out in a fresh coat of paint, with 5 tonnes of coal, 4,000 gallons of water hauling a dozen packed out green Cravens coaches full of RTE cameramen, Transport Minister, Finance, EU Officials, An Taoiseach, An TUsual O Flahartha, An Milseain, An Ludraman, agus an Amadan. All drinking Guinnesss, Wine and Champagne. All eating Lobster and Smoked Salmon. That will be the busiest day the route will ever see as far as passengers are concerned.

And who is paying for all this. Guess who. Yes......its you, you sad idiot, stuck on the N3, paying stamp duty, paying road taxes, stuck in a 90 minute jam every day, because the same idiots on the cute choo choo going through bogland have'nt a clue how to help you.

I will quote a British Minister for transport from the 1980's, and paraphrase it for Irish purposes.

"Irish Rails mission is to provide a modern rail transport system, not joy rides for trainspotters".

i agree...........simple as that..

murphaph

corktina wrote:

well good for you........but not everyone thinks as you do........

No, but I and the rest of Ireland's urban dwellers still have to subsidise the lifestyle choices made by people who choose to live in a one-off rural house. Services (roads, utilities, schools etc.) all cost way more to provide in ultra low density environments, yet all these things are subsidised by urban taxpayers.

Can I ask this, do you believe that planning control is a bad thing or is not really needed or do you think planning control is needed?

Transport21 Fan

If the Western Rail Corridor ever gets built we might as well make Robert Mugabe An Taoiseach just to complete the picture.

corktina

murphaph wrote:

No, but I and the rest of Ireland's urban dwellers still have to subsidise the lifestyle choices made by people who choose to live in a one-off rural house. Services (roads, utilities, schools etc.) all cost way more to provide in ultra low density environments, yet all these things are subsidised by urban taxpayers.

Can I ask this, do you believe that planning control is a bad thing or is not really needed or do you think planning control is needed?

dont be daft...the services are already there....we pay well for what extra bits we need you know.....the council charge well for planning permission.......

markpb

corktina wrote:

dont be daft...the services are already there....we pay well for what extra bits we need you know.....the council charge well for planning permission.......

If ten people live miles away from the nearest town, ESB have to run poles and lines all the way out to those houses. They have to perform maintaince on those lines. If they're far enough away, they might even have to add a booster to the line. The same ten houses in a town can be facilitated for almost nothing. Who pays that extra cost? Everyone in the country, not just those ten houses. Any belief otherwise is foolish.

The same applies for phone lines, sewage, water supply, ambulance services, road network... the list is endless and pretty much every one of them is subsidised by the entire country.

murphaph

corktina wrote:

dont be daft...the services are already there....we pay well for what extra bits we need you know.....the council charge well for planning permission.......

^^What markpb said basically^^. If you believe for one moment that rural dwellers pay the full and actual cost for the provision of services then you are sadly misguided. When your power goes-the ESB have to come out at 3am and fix some fallen wire in the middle of nowhere-my electricity can be supplied to me under the ground and power cuts, even in severe weather are rare. It is economical to do it this way because I live in a city. power (and telecoms...) to outlying areas must be supplied by overhead wires (it would be even more enourmously expensive to underground it all) and these are then prone to failure. All the ESB's bill payers pick up the tab for the line repairs to the one off house. If people in ne-off houses were actually charged individually for supply and restoration of services like this then you would see a massive drop off in the numbers choosing this 'idyllic' lifestyle. That's the plain truth of it. I am always astonished at why people in ireland seem to think that the same economies of scale can be achieved in low density rural environments-they can't, and that's why cities have existed since the dawn of civilisation.

You didn't answer my other question though (but you did manage to call me daft). I'll ask again; Do you believe there is a need for planning control in Ireland? and why?

MrJones

I seen some guy there with his Post signature as follows
Western Rail Corridor Passengers 1.7 m
Luas Passengers 70 million
and compared the investment in both as well..bla bla bla

The fact is that the Western Rail Corridor is needed in this country, from Donegal right down to Kerry if you ask me.
It is the only way this country can start to redress the imbalance this country that decentralisation was supposed to address.
How can you predict the no. of passengers that will use the Western Rail Corridor? To give a small example:What if a no. of big technology cos. such as Intel decided to move to say Galway, Shannon,Sligo based on the fact that the transport system had improved greatly?
The fact is also that everyone is this country pays tax not just those in dublin, so we are all entitled to benefit from infrastructure investment by the government.

Winters

MrJones wrote:

The fact is also that everyone is this country pays tax not just those in dublin, so we are all entitled to benefit from infrastructure investment by the government.

I agree but the type of infrastructure and its investment cost should mirror the density of population both in existence and planned along the line. Sadly for the inhabitants of Connacht parts of the WRC dont warrent the type and scale of investment that they are asking for at this time. Demographics not geographics.

MrJones

i think it does warrant the amount of investment they are talking about.
if the transport infrastructure is put in place, connact will thrive.

D'Peoples Voice

MrJones wrote:

I seen some guy there with his Post signature as follows
Western Rail Corridor Passengers 1.7 m
Luas Passengers 70 million
and compared the investment in both as well..bla bla bla

The fact is that the Western Rail Corridor is needed in this country.

No offense, but I would suggest you read up on this project first.

Where did I get my figures, maybe the McCann report,
a report commissioned by the Department of Transport.
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/6645-0.pdf

You claim what if a big tech firm set-up in Galway or Sligo, the railway would be needed.
Why would a railway to places like Claremorris and Tobercurry be needed for a Tech company setting up in Galway or sligo, when both places have plenty of labour.
Clearly you are also unaware of the expected time the train takes to go from Sligo to Galway, you'd drive there quicker, not to mention, a hell of a lot cheaper. Which is exactly what will happen. Just why do you think Irish Rail asked for a subsidy for running this route when they appeared at the Transport Committee last year. Personally I think the people in the West who want it, should be the only ones to pay for the subsidy, then we'll see how eager they are for it!

Finally if you've any of my posts, you'd see that I'm not looking for a Dublin bias, but merely projects that deliver value for money. How can one project that initially was estimated to cost EUR 250 million or so but carry 20million passengers be delayed because of cost, yet a project estimated to cost EUR 375 million or so to carry 1.6million passengers be put forward. I'll tell you, it's because the first was in Dublin.

MrJones

places like clairemorris and tubbercurry have plenty of labour because most of the educated ppl have left for places like galway,dublin,london in order to work there.
a high percentage of the ppl left are doing building-related work be that carpenters,plasterers down to estate agents etc etc.what going to happen when building boom stops?why not get the infrastructure in place now.

What i am saying is if there is a good train service in place, then ppl can commute from say tubbercurryor leitrim, to sligo, or from tuam,athenry,clairemorris,ennis to galway. the list goes on.
im not suggesting commuting from sligo to galway.

note also that a train service is needed as so many people are being forced to move to towns such as athenry because the house prices are extortion elsewhere.
also the government is spending how much on the port tunnel?luas investment so far?further investment in luas to come, not to mention buying out of the m50 toll bridge. dont get me wrong-all of these things are severley needed for dublin.But dont ignore the rest of the country.

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

No offense, but I would suggest you read up on this project first.

Where did I get my figures, maybe the McCann report,
a report commissioned by the Department of Transport.
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/6645-0.pdf

You claim what if a big tech firm set-up in Galway or Sligo, the railway would be needed.
Why would a railway to places like Claremorris and Tobercurry be needed for a Tech company setting up in Galway or sligo, when both places have plenty of labour.
Clearly you are also unaware of the expected time the train takes to go from Sligo to Galway, you'd drive there quicker, not to mention, a hell of a lot cheaper. Which is exactly what will happen. Just why do you think Irish Rail asked for a subsidy for running this route when they appeared at the Transport Committee last year. Personally I think the people in the West who want it, should be the only ones to pay for the subsidy, then we'll see how eager they are for it!

Finally if you've any of my posts, you'd see that I'm not looking for a Dublin bias, but merely projects that deliver value for money. How can one project that initially was estimated to cost EUR 250 million or so but carry 20million passengers be delayed because of cost, yet a project estimated to cost EUR 375 million or so to carry 1.6million passengers be put forward. I'll tell you, it's because the first was in Dublin.

ishmael whale

MrJones wrote:

Western Rail Corridor Passengers 1.7 m ...The fact is that the Western Rail Corridor is needed in this country

There’s already a lengthy thread here, which covers all the ground needed to explain why the WRC is a complete crock, that will make no meaningful contribution to regional development. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=315878

Incidently, the figure of 1.7 million is a gross overestimate, as I’ve pointed out before. It suggests that a Galway Sligo rail service that offers no substantial time advantage over bus and will be considerably slower than private car will attract more custom than the Dublin Limerick service. That’s patent nonsense.

MrJones wrote:

The fact is also that everyone is this country pays tax not just those in dublin, so we are all entitled to benefit from infrastructure investment by the government.

This is a myth that seems to take a lot of killing. As I have clearly explained here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3521527&postcount=12

the West makes no net contribution to national funds, but does well out of government spending. This is reflected in short commuting times and favourable educational provision. In other words, the West is already well looked after. The East, on the other hand, has been neglected and has not enjoyed the same favourable treatment with the result that its infrastructure and services are poor relative to need.

Because I noticed many Western development advocates jump to conclusions at this point, reflecting the way their mindset works, I’m not suggesting that the East should get all the infrastructure because it pays all the tax. I’m suggesting that the East has an infrastructure deficit and the West doesn’t really, so that investment in necessary on grounds of need. Even if the West paid all the tax (and it simply doesn't), its still the East that needs the investment – just as in real life the East has been happy to subsidise the West without complaint. Try getting your mindset around that.

If you are planning to take refuge in the ‘infrastructure first’ argument, reflect that this has already been done. The West is peppered with underutilised airports and rail services that can only be justified on social grounds. We built it. They didn’t come.

The real issue all the time is the simple fact that Western communities are, by default, refusing to take responsibility for their own decisions. If you opt for a settlement pattern based on small towns and one-off housing, then economic development will be a problem. No amount of banging on central government for (yet another) white elephant can paper over that crack.

If the West wants to get real about regional development, they could start by telling Charlestown it’s a dumb location for an international airport and (rather than throwing good money after bad) relocate Galway Airport to a site that could take jets.

murphaph

MrJones wrote:

places like clairemorris and tubbercurry have plenty of labour because most of the educated ppl have left for places like galway,dublin,london in order to work there.

You mean just like in the rest of the developed world-people born in the country move to the cities and live and work in them. If nobody moved from the country to form cities, civisilation and all it's benefits would never have happened and we'd all still be living off the land. What's your beef MrJones? Why can't you just do what billions of people around the world do every day? Just move into an apartment in Galway Cityand if the apartments are too expensive, perhaps the money you want spent on the WRC should be diverted to assist people live closer to work and reduce their dependence on commuting altogether? You believe that the whole this is Dublin-centric. It is, Bavaria is Munich-centric, Scotland is Glasgow-Edinburgh-centric, Sweden is Stockholm-centric. North, south east and west-all over Europe it's the same story. People migrate to cities to enjoy the benefits of economies of scale. Of course infrastucture should be built in Claremorris, just not the WRC, much like infrastructure should be built in Dublin, but not a Maglev to the airport. Horses for courses.

MrJones

i dont see you point that the east has been neglected funding-wise moreso that anywhere else in the country.

another point is that the rail-infrastrastructre(from galway-sligo) is actually in place. needs to be revamped and train put back on it.

The West has short commuting times and favourable educational provision???you are having a laugh.
Ask anyone getting a city-bus in galway city anyday what are the commuting times like?buses on time? traffic congestion?
Ask anyone driving into galway city(or getting a bus) from any of the inbound roads what are the commuting times like?
Listen to any of the traffic reports on the radio any morn/eve and you will hear of the chaos.
Fav education provision?it's over 10 years since celtic tiger kicked in,and the state of alot of national schools still in the west..prefabs holding our school system together..
As for the east being neglected...dont you mean innner city dublin has been neglected.
agree with the point about the galway airport-but in fairness it's an airfield.Could do with a proper airport in galway or maybe in a centralised location like Athlone..take the pressure off Dublin Airport and the 2nd terminal right.

ishmael whale wrote:

There’s already a lengthy thread here, which covers all the ground needed to explain why the WRC is a complete crock, that will make no meaningful contribution to regional development. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=315878

Incidently, the figure of 1.7 million is a gross overestimate, as I’ve pointed out before. It suggests that a Galway Sligo rail service that offers no substantial time advantage over bus and will be considerably slower than private car will attract more custom than the Dublin Limerick service. That’s patent nonsense.This is a myth that seems to take a lot of killing. As I have clearly explained here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=3521527&postcount=12

the West makes no net contribution to national funds, but does well out of government spending. This is reflected in short commuting times and favourable educational provision. In other words, the West is already well looked after. The East, on the other hand, has been neglected and has not enjoyed the same favourable treatment with the result that its infrastructure and services are poor relative to need.

Because I noticed many Western development advocates jump to conclusions at this point, reflecting the way their mindset works, I’m not suggesting that the East should get all the infrastructure because it pays all the tax. I’m suggesting that the East has an infrastructure deficit and the West doesn’t really, so that investment in necessary on grounds of need. Even if the West paid all the tax (and it simply doesn't), its still the East that needs the investment – just as in real life the East has been happy to subsidise the West without complaint. Try getting your mindset around that.

If you are planning to take refuge in the ‘infrastructure first’ argument, reflect that this has already been done. The West is peppered with underutilised airports and rail services that can only be justified on social grounds. We built it. They didn’t come.

The real issue all the time is the simple fact that Western communities are, by default, refusing to take responsibility for their own decisions. If you opt for a settlement pattern based on small towns and one-off housing, then economic development will be a problem. No amount of banging on central government for (yet another) white elephant can paper over that crack.

If the West wants to get real about regional development, they could start by telling Charlestown it’s a dumb location for an international airport and (rather than throwing good money after bad) relocate Galway Airport to a site that could take jets.

markpb

MrJones wrote:

i dont see you point that the east has been neglected funding-wise moreso that anywhere else in the country.

Per head of population, Dublin has an infrastructural deficit. It may have lots of roads, motorways, trains and the lot but for the number of people living and working there, it's not enough / as much as the west. If you stop thinking of Dublin in the same terms you think of Galway or Cork but actually a city three to four times the size, you'll begin to understand the problem. It might have a lot of infrastructure but it doesn't have 4+ times that of Galway.

MrJones wrote:

another point is that the rail-infrastrastructre(from galway-sligo) is actually in place. needs to be revamped and train put back on it.

And then you'll need to put trains on it and pay IE to run them because they almost definitely won't come anywhere near paying for themselves. The Dart and Commuter services don't cover their costs but they come relatively close. A train-track with three trains a day won't even dream of covering the costs.

As for the east being neglected...dont you mean innner city dublin has been neglected.

It's been a long time since Dublin is the east. The greater Dublin area (or the commuting dublin area) covers most of the east and mid-east of the country.

Could do with a proper airport in galway or maybe in a centralised location like Athlone..take the pressure off Dublin Airport and the 2nd terminal right.

Athlone may be geographically centralised but not population-wise. Dublin, Cork and Galway should, with decent transport links, be all the airport Ireland needs. The cross-country transport links weren't included in T21 so the WRC and trains in Dublin could be paid for. We can't have it every way.

MrJones

listen i have lived and worked in dublin.i lived and worked in galway city for 6 years also.i know its a fact of life that ppl move to the big cities but not everybody does it. this is not a f**k dublin, all roads shouldnt lead to dublin" rant.
as far as im concerned the western rail corridor represents a viable good value for money option.
I just think it would open up the west for alot more opportunities.

murphaph wrote:

You mean just like in the rest of the developed world-people born in the country move to the cities and live and work in them. If nobody moved from the country to form cities, civisilation and all it's benefits would never have happened and we'd all still be living off the land. What's your beef MrJones? Why can't you just do what billions of people around the world do every day? Just move into an apartment in Galway City

markpb

MrJones wrote:

i know its a fact of life that ppl move to the big cities but not everybody does it....I just think it would open up the west for alot more opportunities.

No-one is denying that. There's no reason for everyone to live in cities. The problem occurs when people don't want to live in cities but do want all the facilities that living in a city offers. Providing the same service in low density costs far more.

Whatever the WRC does do for the west, it won't get people out of their cars because it'll be slower. It won't get people commuting because there'll only be a small number of trains a day. And because there won't be a network of supporting bus and light-rail services, it probably won't be used at all because people will have to drive to get to it.

People (here) are not opposed to transport investment in the west per se, just the badly thought out version that's currently being pursued. Just like (some) people opposed to the current metro in Dublin because it's badly thought out.

ishmael whale

MrJones wrote:

another point is that the rail-infrastrastructre(from galway-sligo) is actually in place. needs to be revamped and train put back on it.

In fairness to you, the WRC is a proposal well known to many of us here so that we can forget that many people have an image of the thing that bears no relationship to the reality. What’s preserved is the route that the line used to take, but it will actually cost several hundred million to relay the track. What’ll you end up with is a windy route with lots of level crossings. The speed of the train will be roughly the same as a bus – you’re not talking about a TGV. So, essentially, the WRC proposal amounts to paying hundreds of millions for a bus. That makes no sense in anyone’s language, even before we get into population distribution.

MrJones wrote:

The West has short commuting times and favourable educational provision???you are having a laugh.

I’m actually quoting from the Western Development Commission 'Look West' website, linked to the post I cross referenced above. It confirms the East is relatively disadvantaged. The particular areas of disadvantage are the counties surrounding Dublin, rather than inner city Dublin.

http://www.lookwest.ie/lookwest/Home/WestLiving/tabid/105/Default.aspx#Less_Time_in_the_Car_–_More_Time_for_You_
75% of people in the West spend 30 minutes or less getting to work
Only 1 in 20 spend more than an hour
Average commute time is about 20 minutes
1 in 7 people in the Dublin area have to travel for over an hour to get to work each day.

http://www.lookwest.ie/lookwest/Home/WestLiving/tabid/105/Default.aspx#_Your_Child’s_Education
A higher share of young people go to college than anywhere else in the country
56% of all 17-18 year olds in Galway and 55% in Mayo and Sligo go to college – compared with 44% nationally
Children also start out on the right foot as primary schools in the West generally have smaller class sizes.
Average pupil-teacher ratios in primary schools are considerably lower than in Dublin and surrounding counties e.g. an average of about 17 pupils per teacher in Mayo compared with 22 pupils in Kildare.

murphaph

MrJones wrote:

The West has short commuting times and favourable educational provision???you are having a laugh.
Ask anyone getting a city-bus in galway city anyday what are the commuting times like?buses on time? traffic congestion?
Ask anyone driving into galway city(or getting a bus) from any of the inbound roads what are the commuting times like?
Listen to any of the traffic reports on the radio any morn/eve and you will hear of the chaos.

Then why on earth do you want to divert money away from massively enhancing Galway City's transport infrastructure by spending it in rural Mayo. Why don't you want it spent on bus lanes, bus prority measures, more buses, bus interchanges, maybe even light rail for Galway? Nevermind the massive use that the existing Galway railway could be put to but isn't? Why don't you scream for immediate commuter rail services from Oranmore on an existing line? What is the psychosis with the WRC-it will do SFA to ease congestion in Galway CITY!

MrJones wrote:

Fav education provision?it's over 10 years since celtic tiger kicked in,and the state of alot of national schools still in the west..prefabs holding our school system together..

Just like 2 of my local primary schools then :rolleyes:

MrJones wrote:

As for the east being neglected...dont you mean innner city dublin has been neglected.

Those schools are in Fingal, one of the wealthiest counties (and the fastest growing county by population) in Ireland. Leave the victim complex at the front door in future. It's very unbecoming.

MrJones

ishmael whale wrote:

In fairness to you, the WRC is a proposal well known to many of us here so that we can forget that many people have an image of the thing that bears no relationship to the reality. What’s preserved is the route that the line used to take, but it will actually cost several hundred million to relay the track.

in the this case im just stating fact that the line is already there and tracks and this has been used before. obviously the tracks will prob have to be replaced. im not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.

MrJones

murphaph wrote:

What is the psychosis with the WRC-it will do SFA to ease congestion in Galway CITY!

it will mean a hell of alot less cars coming into galway city from tuam,ornamore,athenry,clairemorris,ballinsloe,loughrea etc..
this is the main congestion point for commuters.
obviously a commuter train service from these areas into galway city would also serve as a solution but i couldn't see the government going with that.

ishmael whale

MrJones wrote:

in the this case im just stating fact that the line is already there and tracks and this has been used before. obviously the tracks will prob have to be replaced. im not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.

I’m not suggesting that you’re trying to mislead. I’m just pointing out that the fact the old route is still in public ownership is not the great advantage that some would present it to be.

I can understand that if someone says to you ‘Oh, the old route is still there and you could have a rail line connecting up the West coast as a counterbalance to the East’ that superficially it might seem attractive and if you didn’t think much about it you’d probably assume it was cost effective. But, in reality, the WRC involves the investment of very significant funds for no real benefit – that’s the bottom line.

Don’t assume that every project with ‘Western’ in the title is good for regional development, or feel obliged to support it out of some sense that you have to back any and all expenditure with a Western tag regardless of its value, which is the only possible explanation for your comment:

MrJones wrote:

obviously a commuter train service from these areas into galway city would also serve as a solution but i couldn't see the government going with that.

Transport21 Fan

MrJones wrote:

it will mean a hell of alot less cars coming into galway city from tuam,ornamore,athenry,clairemorris,ballinsloe,loughrea etc..
this is the main congestion point for commuters.

You don't need to reopen the WRC from Sligo to Limerick for 3 trains a day to do this. Develop a Maynooth-type commuter service to Athenry on the Galway-Dublin line with new stations at Oranmore and a few more in between (this is already included in Transport21).

The issue with the Western Rail Corridor is when they start adding Kiltimagh and Tubbercurry to the equation as if this will boost the case for traffic on the line and create development in the West. This is pure folly.

I live in Tubbercurry, right next to the WRC and I know a fair bit about rail transport in terms of what makes people and communities depend upon it and use it. I can tell you that they would be lucky is more than 5 people used it a day in Tubbercurry and this is one of the larger towns on the line. Most people here work in Town itself or in Ballina. A fair few work in Sligo but the train station in Sligo is miles from the main employment centres in Sligo (and of course the CIE Sligo local bus services do not even serve the train station :rolleyes: ) - so they will continue to use the private bus services from Tubber into the industrial estates in Sligo as the trains would be of no used to them.

I would say the majority of people here in Tubber work all over, from Arigna to Longford to Carrick-on-Shannon. In terms of the WRC providing a commuter service to Tubber that is a total non-starter. 90% of the BE bus passengers are old folks on free passes and I have carried out surveys on bus ridership in the town and at most 20 to 30 people used the bus on an average day (in both directions) and the majority of them are old folks going to the Marian Shrine at Knock (on free passes).

The spoofery surrounding the potential of the WRC is simply incredible. There is also no traffic congestion in Connacht outside the roundabouts in Galway city.

So you are hearing this from the source of somebody who knows about rail transport's real potential and lives next to the WRC and not some British based "expert" - this is the real facts and the word on the ground. The WRC would be a complete and total flop if opened in full and would damage the case for future rail investment West of the Shannon, which I fully support as long as it money spent on getting the most bums in train seats.

The worst advertisement in the world for future rail investment is for half empty trains rattling through the countryside and this is what the WRC is all about. The best advertisement in the world for rail transport is packed commuter trains heading to nearby cities and this is NOT what the WRC is about. Well, certainly not WestonTracks vision for the WRC.

One of the great disasters of the whole WestonTrack carry-on is that it took away from the possibility of really viable and specifically targetted rail transport investment in the West by diluting the potential of rail investement by indulging rural groups who won't use the trains awyway.

If the crackpot WRC is opened in full from Sligo to Limerick for a handful of grannies on free travel passes on three trains a day then you can kiss goodbye to a very viable Sligo-Ballisodare-Coolooney-Ballymote-Boyle commuter rail service (which was on the cards before the mad rush to make Claremorris the Calpham Jct of the Irish rail network smothered it), Galway light rail, Limerick light rail and who knows what else. The future politicans will be pointing at the empty railcar rattling over Swinford with 3 grannie on free travel passes as proof that there is no demand for commuter rail travel in the West.

If you want to ultimate proof of why the WRC is doomed to failure just compare it to the already opened Limerick-Waterford-Rosslare line - this line is demographically similar to the WRC and already has the kind of service WoT want for the WRC and this line is a complete and utter flop at attacting passengers in significant numbers. (although it could be if the "Boat Train" psychosis was dropped)

Rail investment west of the Shannon...YES...reopening the Western Rail Corridor...NO.

Don't believe the hype and drop the hollow "Dublin bias" bull****, it is nothing of the sort. Dublin and the East Coast need rail investment ASAP and as much as possible. Kiltimagh will just have to wait it's turn.

How about something normal in the West like fix up the kip that is Galway station to begin with? What is this obsession with running trains across the bogs of East Galway and Mayo? It's bonkers really.

And besides there is already a rail transport corridor from Mayo to Cork and it costs nothing to put into service and even beats the driving times. Just involves better connections and IE actually advertising it. (there was an article I wrote on it for the P11 website, not sure if it is still around...if not PM and I'll forward the details to you).

MrJones

Transport21 Fan wrote:

You don't need to reopen the WRC from Sligo to Limerick for 3 trains a day to do this. Develop a Maynooth-type commuter service to Athenry on the Galway-Dublin line with new stations at Oranmore and a few more in between (this is already included in Transport21).

ok this is a viable alternative to WRC but can you really see the government having the bottle to actually go for something like this

Transport21 Fan wrote:

very viable Sligo-Ballisodare-Coolooney-Ballymote-Boyle commuter rail service

this is a good idea as well and proves that sligo and galway do both need a rail service like this, but can you see it happening?

Transport21 Fan wrote:

There is also no traffic congestion in Connacht outside the roundabouts in Galway city.

claregalway,tuam,loughrea(even with the by-pass),ok the clairemorris by-pass has helped their traffic problem. There is a growing traffic congestion problem in the west. claregalway is a joke.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Don't believe the hype and drop the hollow "Dublin bias" bull****, it is nothing of the sort. Dublin and the East Coast need rail investment ASAP and as much as possible. Kiltimagh will just have to wait it's turn.

i resent that. dont pidgeon hole me into some sort of backward anti-Dublin-get-everything character.That's not where im coming from.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

And besides there is already a rail transport corridor from Mayo to Cork and it costs nothing to put into service and even beats the driving times.

which rail transport corridor is that? the existing line that is out of service?just put carriages on that, is that what you mean?

Occidental

Mr Jones,

Can you explain what the Western Rail Corridor is going to do for people commuting from Ballinasloe to Galway and from Leitrim to Sligo.

murphaph

MrJones wrote:

it will mean a hell of alot less cars coming into galway city from tuam,ornamore,athenry,clairemorris,ballinsloe,loughrea etc..
this is the main congestion point for commuters.
obviously a commuter train service from these areas into galway city would also serve as a solution but i couldn't see the government going with that.

The towns in bold are already on an extant rail line and two out of three of them have extant railway stations! The WRC is not required to provide quality commuter rail services from these towns into Eyre Square. The WRC will just take funding away from them.

Tuam is a small own of ca. 5k people. Loughrea is even smaller than Tuam. I actually have no real problem with the WRC from Tuam, south to Ennis being reopened, but this stretch is by far the cheapest part of the WRC, north of here is laden with level crossings which will all have to be automated and an automated level crossing comes in at a cool 700k, plus maintenance and staff still have to monitor them remotely.

I presume you just don't really know much about the WRC and that's ok. You're being sold a dud by the likes of Eamon O'Cuiv. I have no problem with 350m++ being spent on transport infrastructure west of the Shannon, but it should be appropriate infrastructure.

Transport21 Fan

ok this is a viable alternative to WRC but can you really see the government having the bottle to actually go for something like this

Mr Jones, no offense but you really need to keep up to-date on this stuff and read up on it and what the WRC is and what towns it serves rather than assumptions based on bits you have picked up here and there.

The money for the Galway-Oranmore-Athenry is already earmarked. Galway engineers and planners have already been told by the DoT to start working with IE and a major Parkn'Ride/residential development based around the commuter service is being planned for Athenry. Like a mini-version of Adamstown.

See this is the problem. Too many people know almost nothing about the reality of the WRC except that they read somewhere that it is "vital" and took highly selective spoofery and media chinese whispers to be fact.

this is a good idea as well and proves that sligo and galway do both need a rail service like this, but can you see it happening?

I did, before WestonTrack came along - the momentum was certainly going that way. There was even a consultants report commisioned by the Sligo Rapid Transit group and it all was suffocated and forgotton in the mad rush to make Claremorris the most important rail location on this island.

This is why so many people are against the WRC - it targets the wrong issues. It goes for a shotgun effect of being this grand truck social justice for farmers rural route rather than looking at where rail transport commuting can be most effective west of the Shannon (Sligo-Boyle, Galway-Oranmore-Athenry) in some case using parts of the old WRC (Limerick-Sixmilebridge-Ennis-Galway for a regional commuter).

Youy are right about Claregalway the traffic is pretty dreadful there at times, but the Western Rail Corridor won't help. This is where something like a Light Rail Plan for the Galway city area going forward from this point should be looked at. The RPA recently stated that they would be willing, and sadly it was shot down by some rather cynical voices and this is most unfortunate. Galway is also the worst planned city in Ireland and something like a light rail plan based around real development plan should at least be seriously examined.

i resent that. dont pidgeon hole me into some sort of backward anti-Dublin-get-everything character.That's not where im coming from.

Well I did detect that element in your early posts - but you have been willing to listen to the counterargument so fair dues. So I withdraw my remarks.

which rail transport corridor is that? the existing line that is out of service?just put carriages on that, is that what you mean?

They seemed to have removed it from the site, but essentially it was via the Midlands basically the Balina/Westport line connecting with the Dublin-Cork line. I am not sure how do-able it is now with the current time table but a northwest-south rail connection which does not go via Dublin is already a fact of life.

here is the text from the original article - I am sure P11 won't mind me reprinting it here as I was the one who wrote it:

Ballina-Athlone-Cork rail service utilising existing rail lines.


The Northwest is already connected to the South/Southeast by rail.

There is already a "Western" Rail Corridor, it runs from Ballina to Cork via Athlone. All the stations, track other infrastructure are already in place, fully upgraded and operational to modern passenger and freight standards.

It may not be the traditional "Western" Rail Corridor from Sligo to Limerick, but there is an existing corridor which Platform11 referrers to as the "Northwest, Midlands and Southern Rail Link" which unlike the traditional Western Rail Corridor:

* requires absolutely no capital investment to bring into service.
* will require zero operating subvention
* will require no additional rolling stock to be purchased
* no additional staff will be hired
* in terms creating a useful cross-radial connecting rail service, the Northwest-Midlands and Southern Rail Link performs this function very well without the massive capital outlay of the entire WRC reconstruction
* as for railfreight, Ballina is now the main freight terminal for the Northwest and Sligo Quay will be sold off in a few years, transshipment times and costs will be the same as a reopened Sligo - Limerick rail route

The Northwest, Midlands and Southern Rail Link connects directly with every rail service in the country with the exception of the Sligo line and offers excellent competition to road passenger transport. In particular, connecting the Midlands Triangle NSS Gateway with Cork

Platform11 does accept that there is a possibility of people wishing to travel from the Northwest by rail to the South, we just don’t accept that squandering badly needed transport funds on reopening the old line Athenry to Sligo is the only way to do this.

We do not need to reopen the entire traditional Western Rail Corridor from Sligo to Ennis for hundreds of millions of Euro which would be much wisely spent on enhancing rail commuter services around Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway.



In terms of demand, Platform11 estimates our Northwest, Midlands and Southern Rail Link proposal would be subject to the same passenger demands as Sligo - Limerick, and would certainly in excess of Sligo-Rosslare, but without gambling hundreds of millions of taxpayers money.

We called on the DoT and Iarnród Eireann to seriously consider this alternative to the hundreds of millions of Euro required to reopen the traditional Western Rail Corridor from Athenry to Sligo.

More importantly, this idea would serve the overall function of integrated transport to a greater degree than the West on Track plan, which is incredibly expensive and offers so little for the massive expenditure and later operating subvention which will be required.
Clockface departures on the Dublin - Cork route will make this all possible.

By synchronizing passenger services from Ballina with a forthcoming clockface Dublin to Cork service this will create via connections, a rail passenger link from the Northwest of Ireland to the South/Southeast. Iarnród Eireann are planning massive increase in service frequencies, expected in the years to come and Ballina to Cork via the Midlands will become more practical and quicker by rail. We have, by default a cross-radial rail service without spending hundreds of millions on the reopening the Western Rail Corridor from Athenry to Collooney.

The only investment required to get this service off the ground would be the printing cost of adding a new page in the Iarnród Eireann timetable publicising the new Ballina-Athlone-Cork service. Platform11 believes that with discounted fares, a publicity and marketing campaign aimed at the West, Midlands and South of Ireland - this could assume the mantle of the traditional "Western" Rail Corridor while saving the taxpayers of this country hundreds of millions of Euro.

Timetable changes to make the Northwest-Midlands and Southern Rail Link possible:

* Retimetable improved Ballina-Dublin train frequency to connect with Dublin-Cork hourly services, giving a Ballina-Athlone-Cork service. Cost: None (no extra services)

Comparing car/bus with this plan?

* Ballina-Cork is 6h45m by Bus Eireann and 6 hours by private car. This rail plan is superior, at 5h30 min.
* Athlone-Cork is 2h40 by rail, and 3h13 by road according to the AA - a clear winner for this rail proposal between these two NSS gateways

This is a low risk venture to create a north-south connecting rail service at minimal cost using existing infrastructure just by altering the present Dublin-Mayo and Dublin-Cork rail services for improved connections. With a Ballina-Athlone-Cork service we only have to deal with the existing subvention and the gamble of the massive capital investment with reopening the entire traditional Western Rail Corridor is no longer an issue.

Is there any part of the traditional Western Rail Corridor reopening project which is feasible?

Iarnród Eireann themselves have expressed no interest in opening the entire WRC, any plans or proposals to do so are purely political. Platform11 agrees with Iarnród Eireann.

The problem with reopening the entire traditional Western Rail Corridor are two fold. The initial capital costs and the on-going subvention.

* Galway-Ennis-Limerick should and most likely will go ahead as a new Inter-City service - the relay of the Athenry-Ennis section would be a moderate capital outlay/risk, with potential for heavy passenger numbers.
* Ballina to Galway and Sligo to Galway should remain bus only for the foreseeable future as reopening the WRC north of Tuam would not create a fast rail service due to the route having been constructed as a Victorian tramway and there are a total of 61 level crossings along its course.
* The roads from Sligo to Galway with exception of some areas (by-passes coming in the next few years) are very good. There is absolutely no reason to run freight up the WRC as the present network performs that function perfectly as it stands.

MrJones

Occidental wrote:

Mr Jones,

Can you explain what the Western Rail Corridor is going to do for people commuting from Ballinasloe to Galway and from Leitrim to Sligo.

ppl of ballinsloe would have the option to drive to athenry and get the train to galway from there.

leitrim to sligo--its not included in the T21 plans. i stand corrected.

On 1 November 2005 the Transport 21 plan was launched. The WRC committments included under this plan are largely those recommended by the McCann Report. These are:

2008 - Opening of Ennis-Athenry section 74.7 million
2011 - Opening of Athenry-Tuam section 34.7 million
2014 - Opening of Tuam-Claremorris section 58.9 million

I feel those above represent good value. it doesnt include kiltimagh or tubbercurry.

corktina

athenry not being on the main drag, i doubt if ballinasloe people will drive tot here to get to Galway and besides, dont they have a station of their own?