Western Rail Corridor

D'Peoples Voice

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Interesting rurmor floating around. There is to be no regular passenger service to operate on the Athenry-Claremorris section of the WRC as no rolling stock and staff and new stations for the section is included in T21.

What do you make of what Minister Cullen said at the turning of the sod on €63m Charlestown bypass.
"The Western Rail Corridor will be reopened to Claremorris. Athenry will get a new commuter rail service to Galway City. New and more frequent rail services will be provided within the Western area and between the West and the rest of the country."

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=7314&lang=ENG&loc=1887

Transport21 Fan

Just ties in with the grist on the rurmour mill I am hearing on the ground. Also explains why no trains have been ordered for the WRC.

Atherny-Galway is the only part of the "WRC" (which in reality it is not, but the professional whingers do not know this - this is to just shut them up) that is getting a train service for certain under T21 the other sections are just track relaying with very limited service on Ennis-Athenry and no service at all north of Athenry. This also ties in with the planned FF campaign train which will be operating on the safe bits of the WRC on the eve of the next election. But the WRC remains a closed railway line with no regular services north of Athenry for many years to come.

This is a brilliant compromise when you think about it. The people who are rabidly in favour of opening the WRC have no intention of using it beyond a look now and again - they are obsessed with open lines which a train can run on if needed (even if this is only on paper) and the main issue with the WRC was always not so much the reopening costs as much as the massive annual subvenion to maintain a service on the line when the buses on the same routes are running half empty already.

This subvention for the WRC is not included in any DoF or DoF plans. Also remember, the Government's policy on rail transport since the 2002 SRR, has been to end as much of the operating subvention as possible and channel most of the public money into capital upgrade of the rail network. This was the primary breif which the consultants were given. Running a "service" on the WRC for a handful of grannies on free travel passes and a few trainspotters would fly in the face of Government policy.

I have no problem with the WRC (or any closed rail line) being relayed and opened as needed (Athlone-Millingar anyone?). My gripe was always the unviability of any services opening on the WRC. I had no doubt they would just emulate the chonic failures of the Limerick-Rosslare and Limerick-Ballybrophy lines and should never been indulged while lines such as Mullingar-Athlone have a far greater role to play in rail transport in Ireland are ignored.

This "open the line as needed" WRC agenda in T21 seems to be a workable compromise which does not damage the image of rail transport in Ireland the way empty rail cars passing over the Swinford and Cahir viaducts or arriving at Nenagh constantly do.

This is the "train" I saw last week and the one which Bertie and the local gombeens will be waving out of as it passes through Tuam on the eve of the next election. I suspect we'll never hear of WestonTrack and the WRC ever again after this happens:

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

What do you make of what Minister Cullen said at the turning of the sod on €63m Charlestown bypass.
"The Western Rail Corridor will be reopened to Claremorris. Athenry will get a new commuter rail service to Galway City. New and more frequent rail services will be provided within the Western area and between the West and the rest of the country."

http://www.transport.ie/viewitem.asp?id=7314&lang=ENG&loc=1887

Victor

Joined up thinking http://www.galway.ie/roads/N17Mtown_boundary.jpg

citycentre

As a resident of Galway I'm pleased that there is some action being taken to improve Public Transport in the western region. I agree fully that the Western Rail Corridor idea is a bit of a sham - Limerick - Ennis - Athenry is a given, as is some form of Commuter service from Athenry - Galway. The rest seems somewhat pointless to me. The (eventual) vastly improved road infrastructure between Galway and Sligo will allow for proper express bus services between the main population centres which will almost certainly have better travel times than any re-opened rail service between the cities.
I believe that any expenditure should be focussed on a number of other issues which would beneifit the region in a more meaningful way:
1: Build the railway spur to Shannon airport from the Limerick-Ennis line - This would have many knock on benefits and would ensure the viability of the entire Limerick - Athenry route.
2: Invest in Doubling the line between Athenry & Galway so that proper, regular commuter services can run in paralell to the improved inter-city service. Oranmore, Roscam, Merlin/GMIT and Renmore should all get commmuter stations.
3: Invest in a proper light rail / bus system for Galway city - Currently public transport is almost non-existant and road-space is at a premium. Alternative routes for a light rail or trolleybus system could include existing disused infrastructure such as the prospect hill tunnel to deliver passengers from outer areas straight into Eyre Sq.

Sarsfield

More people in the West need to kick up a fuss over this waste of time and money which is being spent to placate a few noisy loonies. The people of the West and the whole of Ireland deserve to have their money spent more wisely than this.

Dublin voices will go unheard so the only people who can end this farce are those who are being robbed by these nutters on their ego trip.

Politicians will go where the votes are. Let them know you want your money spent on something useful instead.

ishmael whale

BTH's comments seem eminently reasonable, and hopefully attitudes do start gravitating in that direction. There's no doubt that politicians will follow the public, so if the public starts demanding sensible projects that's what they'll get.

Incidently, are you the same BTH as the one seeming a bit warmer to the WRC on archiseek.com about a week ago?

http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?p=48352#post48352
Can we assume that you have a problem with the reopening of the Western Rail Corridor? A simple to execute, cost effective and viable scheme which will have huge advantages for the region served not least the development of proper commuter services for the rapidly growing cities of Limerick, Galway and eventually Sligo.....

citycentre

Hehe, caught!!
That was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to "Cute Panda's" very sardonic "Eastern Fish Corridor" post...
To me the WRC really only means the Ennis - Galway section but I did think "well what harm can opening the rest of it do??".
After finding this place and reading all the comments I'm fairly convinced that anything northwards beyond Athenry is without basis in practicality, cost or need. Of course it would be pleasant to be able to take the train from Galway to Sligo/Castlebar/Ballina but in reality, when the new N17/N18/M6 is complete the journey will be relatively painless by bus - provided the operators are willing to provide journeys that don't detour through every backwater / stop at every hole in the hedge like the current services do.

BTW, Athenry is really well placed to reap the benefit from all of these developments - road and rail - and is already expanding at a serious rate. I recently read that a huge swathe of land, currently in the control of Teagasc, and strategically located right next to the N17/18/M6 junction is set to become a science and technology zone run by the IDA, and that a well known technology firm is poised to announce a 1000+ jobs investment in the area. Interesting times for what is currently a fairly charming, off the beaten track little town.

citycentre

Just to show how the roads infrastructure in the west is set to change dramatically as well as the Railways: Image from Galway Co. Council website.



Just to the right of the proposed junction is Athenry - looking like becoming the "hub" of the west...

MarkoP11

Been working on this concept since last July, including a capacity anaylsis leading to 2 tracks to Atherny, draft timetable new stations

It did appear at a planning meeting with respect to Oranmore and went down well.

This is the way forward for the west forget lines through the middle of nowhere provide services where there is demand and do so in combination with good planning, Galway City and County Councils seem to be moving the right way

Maskhadov

I dont live on the west coast but I dont know why people have issue with it. WRC is procceding faster than T21 because there isnt a whole lot to object to over there and the project can proceed quickly.

I just hope the local authorities rezone land to medium density around the stations. This will do wonders for commuters levels and also save some of the uglyness of one off housing.

D'Peoples Voice

Maskhadov wrote:

I dont live on the west coast but I dont know why people have issue with it. WRC is procceding faster than T21 because there isnt a whole lot to object to over there and the project can proceed quickly.

I believe that they should proceed with the Atlantic Road Corridor between Letterkenny and Galway as soon as possible.

Maskhadov wrote:

I just hope the local authorities rezone land to medium density around the stations. This will do wonders for commuters levels and also save some of the uglyness of one off housing.

Agreed, the local authorities of Mayo should not allow ONE more house to be built in either Castlebar, Westport, Belmullet, Ballina, Achill etc and every house is to be built in one of the towns along the Western Rail corridor. Local authorities in Galway and Sligo should do the same. Then when they have towns of sufficient size, they should build the Western Rail Corridor.

ocathais

dont live on the west coast but I dont know why people have issue with it

'people' dont in general have a problem with it. There is one special individual however who harbours an unrequited hate for many railway groups top of the pile being West on Track. This well known internet bandit has an amusing tactic which involves inventing a host of posters to support the polemnic being offered up hence some of the supiciously similar sounding voices you will hear shouting down people on boards/transport. Anyhow take it with a pinch of salt but dont expect a reasonable debate this is one of the drawbacks of internet forums I suppose its always open to this sort of nonsense. The upside is that it is entertaining trying to guess who belongs to the team...I dont know where this person finds the time and energy to do this stuff!

Transport21 Fan

Howya Ocathis!!!! Gosh, I bet this thread is making very depressing reading for you. It's about time you learned the truth. Stop hating me, I am a nice man honest!

I don't take things personally, just want to see the money invested in rail spent on getting the most 'bums in seat' and not wasted on trainspotter holidays in Ireland and professional regional whingers no matter where they live in the country.

Why can't you come to terms with this and the fact that most Irish people who have looked at WestonTrack's version of the WRC objectively agree with me. I am in the majority on this one. Sorry, but it's the truth.

You, WestonTrack, IRN are all very much in the minority even with people in Ireland who are very much pro-rail investment.

Do some people have any idea how sad it is downloading photos of some JCB cutting back weeds at Curry and Swinford as if it is the most important development in the history of rail transport in Ireland? Think about it. They have no interest in any other aspect of Transport21, but the sight of a few fence poles being delivered by a truck to Kiltimagh is some form of religious experience and the most important thing to have ever happened railways in Ireland in the last 30 years!

A fence is not the same thing as a train. (the WestonTrack version of the WRC is not going to happen, becuase most objectively minded people in Ireland who care about genuine rail transport development/investment can see it for the joke it is, was.) Just look at the reaction to it on this and other non-trainspotter groups if you do not beleive me.

You should forget about spending all night stalking Platform11 members on the internet who dare to question the Western Rail Corridor or the Mountmellick Light Rail project and get out more. (and I am not talking about taking photos of weeds being trimmed back on the Burma Road either.)

But you are welcome to come up to Sligo and play with my model train set and we can talk it over. I'll drive you around the WRC and show you the hundreds of places the "people of the West!" who cared so much for the WRC that they built their house access road on the Burma Road with full planning permission from Sligo CoCo as late as 2002? They care about it even less that I do. So why do you continue to fight a battle on their behalf that they themselves have no interest in?

How come you can't cultivate the same level of hatred for them people who wrecked the Burma Road as you do for anyone who questiones the Limerick - Sligo folly which would have been a disaster and would have ruined all future investment in rail in Ireland and it had to be stopped (and it has been).

That's the only agenda here. Mission accomplished. Now deal with it.

ishmael whale

ocathais wrote:

Anyhow take it with a pinch of salt but dont expect a reasonable debate this is one of the drawbacks of internet forums I suppose its always open to this sort of nonsense.

The real problem is people involved in the WRC campaign have invested so much emotional capital in the thing that they can’t look at it objectively. Its not possible to shout people down in internet debates, but discussion forums are a useful tool for dissecting arguments. What’s happens on WRC threads is that the case for reopening is simply exposed as the waste that it is, and supporters find themselves unable to come up with coherent responses to the very obvious flaws in their proposal.

At the end of the day, a whole load of people and organisations were willing give lip service to the WRC simply because it had the word ‘Western’ in the title. Its not as if any of the lengthy list of supporting organisations gave the project any real thought and, as is evident in the many discussion threads on the subject, many people support it because of a superficial, and sometimes mistaken, understanding of what it amounts to.

Frequently, when people take a public stance on something they seem to feel they can’t change their minds even when their reasoning is shown to be faulty. So about the most heartening thing I’ve read in any discussion thread on this topic is the contribution above from BTH. Its worth repeating.

BTH wrote:

....To me the WRC really only means the Ennis - Galway section but I did think "well what harm can opening the rest of it do??".

After finding this place and reading all the comments I'm fairly convinced that anything northwards beyond Athenry is without basis in practicality, cost or need. Of course it would be pleasant to be able to take the train from Galway to Sligo/Castlebar/Ballina but in reality, when the new N17/N18/M6 is complete the journey will be relatively painless by bus - provided the operators are willing to provide journeys that don't detour through every backwater / stop at every hole in the hedge like the current services do....

This is, essentially, the point we’re making. This also the point that WRC proponents have been unable to answer, hence ocathais’ frustration.

Is there any hope that West On Track could simply acknowledge they cannot answer the case being put to them?

Nobody likes admitting to being an eejit in public, but at least an honest admission of error is something people can respect. West on Track seem to think they have to continue to advocate a waste of public money rather than just admitting they backed a dumb idea.

Transport21 Fan

Which reminds me...Where is the Eastern Fish Corridor Community Campaign website? I was promised it in time for be cannonisation at the Vatican...

We have to get started in time for the next general election. Don't tell me it has been destroyed by people who hate the Midlands and this is their only agenda!!!!!

THE MIDLANDS WILL FISH AGAIN!!!

OPEN THE EASTERN FISH CORRIDOR


"The Eastern Fish Corridor represents the most vital piece of Marine Infrastrutue in all of Europe. All Irish taxpayer should fund the Eastern Fish Corridor so I can download photos of it here in London."

Vicount Ebeneezer Von Blunderpluss (London) - Irish Trawler Centrefolds

Irish Trawler Centerfold is an British based (but pretending to be in Athy) Irish Fishing Boat spotter site with 2,000 members of which 6 are currently active and have several accounts under different names so they can upload another 6000 photos of the same trawlers over and over again.

Transport21 Fan

ishmael whale wrote:

Nobody likes admitting to being an eejit in public, but at least an honest admission of error is something people can respect. West on Track seem to think they have to continue to advocate a waste of public money rather than just admitting they backed a dumb idea.

They will never admit this. I have met these people. It is not in their personality make-up. You are simply against the people of the West and that's all there is to it. No grey area at all sadly. This is why the real railway agenda for the West of Ireland is being lost in this carry on.

That's the real tragedy.

murphaph

Hello O'Cathais,
Long time no read. Outside the world of Irish Railway News you'll find a different sort of debate. Here, you won't be banned for questioning the Dublin Metro or DART extension and promoting the WRC, but I made the fatal mistake of being anti-WRC on IRN and earned myself a prompt banning. The excuse used was that I'd called some guy a liar (which he was because he said something untrue). Thankfully most IRN people don't get to vote here and the government doesn't give a monkey's about their opinions.

You know in your heart of hearts that the WRC north of Tuam is a waste of time and is only an indulgence. The figures have been gone through here in detail (Thanks mainly to Ishmael Whale) and it's clear to anyone with simple mathematics that it's a dead duck.

Transport21 Fan

murphaph wrote:

Hello O'Cathais,
Long time no read. Outside the world of Irish Railway News you'll find a different sort of debate. Here, you won't be banned for questioning the Dublin Metro or DART extension and promoting the WRC

Correction, outside IRN there is a debate on the viablity of the Western Rail Corridor.

It's also killing them that P11 only got stronger when P11 pulled the plug on supporting the "3 trains a day between Sligo and Limerick" for 600 million Euro, when 3 buses a day each way would fill the demand with spare capacity left over and the money could be better spent on commuter rail SERVICES for Galway and Limerick and maybe even Sligo rather than using it to make Claremorris the Clapham Junction of the Irish Railway network in terms of rail lines running into in.

The most unfortunate elements within the "Irish Railway Community" is filled with these personality types and they are psycholocially incapable of coming to terms with a critical examination of the Western Rail Corridor and the tactics of WestonTrack. It would be like asking a US Bible Belt Creationist to consider that Charles Darwin might have a point.

Objectivity simply does not factor into it. You "hate the people of the West" is the only argument they can come up. There is not one person who could prove the Western Rail Corridor is vital for rail transport development in Ireland and could present a viable argument to back it up. Not one.

It's as simple as that.

Charles Darwin

It's hard work alright:D

ocathais

hello people thanks for the reply.

Well in reponse to the hate charge I did use the words 'unrequited' and 'amusing' I think in my post so you know, its only trains I dont hate anyone honest.
What I was trying to do was explain to the poster Maskhadov the unique arguement constuction employed on these sort of forums from time to time...again far from hating it I always enjoy the Kevin myers esque contribution from the bandit which sometimes gives away members of 'the team'

As regards P11 I didn't mention them in my post and it wasnt addressed to them just the bandit. I havent really been on p11 since it went closed doors but I do read this forum all the time and I can see that they are becoming more focused on what they want and less on settling petty scores...more power to P11. Is the bandit still a member of P11 I wonder? I cant see myself how the Kevin Myers school of diplomacy fits in with a serious rail lobby but hey thats none of my business.

As for WoT I support them but I also appreciate alot of the more reasoned criticism of the project has merit...on balance I support the project and think it is worthwhile thats been my position for a good while now.

In terms of the People of Ireland and all that nonsense.....there's about 20 intensive posters in P11 maybe 11 or 12 on IRN and I guess most of the 15 or so here (interested specifically in trains) belong to one of the other....so about 40 people altogether. I dont think I need to point out to reasonable people how ludicrous some of the self important pronouncements are you see here occaisionally....but again that is part of the fun of forums like this one or IRN or P11 and also why no one will ever take them or the contributors seriously.

Hope that clears my position up...glad to answer any more queries from the real and imaginary friends

corktina

phew.....wot a lot of rhetoric.......cant read it all, but i did agree with the bit about buses could run better, cheaper services on the WRC......capital cost? nearly nothing.....oh yes....they already do dont they....:)

ocathais

genuinely you are a legend...I take my hat off to you.

ishmael whale

ocathais wrote:

As for WoT I support them but I also appreciate alot of the more reasoned criticism of the project has merit...on balance I support the project and think it is worthwhile thats been my position for a good while now.

My first reaction is to wonder if your statement to the effect that the 'reasoned' criticism is valid is an attempt to avoid needing to explain how a service that offers no real time advantage over bus and none over private car could be worth supporting - i.e. you hope that a little verbal gymnastics along the lines of 'I agree the service will be much slower than a TGV, but on balance I think its worth proceeding with' will leave you in the happy position of not having to make any substantive point that could be challenged.

Would you be able to say what criticisms you see as valid, and what's on the other side of the scales that makes you think that 'on balance' that the project is worth supporting?

ocathais wrote:

I dont think I need to point out to reasonable people how ludicrous some of the self important pronouncements are you see here occaisionally....but again that is part of the fun of forums like this one or IRN or P11 and also why no one will ever take them or the contributors seriously.

This does sound a lot like 'I know a lot of valid criticism is made of the WRC for which there is no rebuttal, but thankfully Martin Cullen never asks what people are posting on boards.ie'. But we'll wait and see what you say next.

Transport21 Fan

ocathais wrote:

genuinely you are a legend...I take my hat off to you.

Wait until I have the Limerick-Rosslare line converted into a bike path. That's coming next - The Bandit.

I have to ask Corktina, Phillip, D'People's Republic, Ishmale and all the others here who see the WRC for the joke that it is to stop using my ISP. I need this computer for work too. Thanks.

Transport21 Fan

Ishmale, you are wasting you time with that guy. It's like trying to get Osama Bin Landen to sing The Star Spangled Banner while eating a ham sandwich.

Anyway, he is convinced that you and everybody else on the net who thinks the WRC is a joke is actually me using loads of different names.

So how does it feel to be a good looking, talented, globe trotting, successful artist and comedy writer and with all the women throwing themselves at you?

SeanW

Yes, some of those IRN people who didn't like my stance on the WRC nor my name P11supporter got really mental about that and demanded to know my real name ... paranoid?

Anyways Ocathais you and your friend Dr Diesel will be happy to know that I haven't hung any spammers since our last encounter - or before it either.

ishmael whale

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Ishmale, you are wasting you time with that guy. It's like trying to get Osama Bin Landen to sing The Star Spangled Banner while eating a ham sandwich.

Indeed, but I have a limitless amount of curiousity about the ability of the human mind to part itself from reality.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Anyway, he is convinced that you and everybody else on the net who thinks the WRC is a joke is actually me using loads of different names.

On behalf of the rest of the clones, can I just say how much we appreciate you sharing your DNA with us.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

So how does it feel to be a good looking, talented, globe trotting, successful artist and comedy writer and with all the women throwing themselves at you?

But I really wanted to be a priest, Ted. The uniform, the ability to perform extreme unction, the rock and roll lifestyle.

murphaph

ishmael whale wrote:

But I really wanted to be a priest, Ted. The uniform, the ability to perform extreme unction, the rock and roll lifestyle.

Craggy Island actually has a higher population density and better planning than Mayo

Transport21 Fan

ishmael whale wrote:

Indeed, but I have a limitless amount of curiousity about the ability of the human mind to part itself from reality.

I am facinated by his absolute personal hatred of me, which he takes to a very viceral level (never even met the guy!), it's borderline homo-erotic really and involves stalking my entire internet history going back 7 years to when I worked for Goldman Sachs on Wall Street as if by somehow "exposing me" will somehow get him and the other eejits their beloved Western Rail Corridor. He follows me across message board like a broken hearted lover or something. I am half waiting for pictures of me in the nude pinned onto locomotives in Inchicore with "SLUT" written across the top.

He honestly does believe that I am only person on the planet against the Western Rail Corridor and the rest of you are all me posting under other names. This therefore, proves to him that I am a nutcase and thus my opinion on the WRC is invalid. Has he ever once counter-argued with anybody on IRN or anywhere else on the actual merits of the WRC? Nope, he always follows the same pattern. They are all either me in disguise, and they are all nutcases for being anti-WRC. I have yet to hear one single rail-economic argument from the bloke to prove his absolute beleif in this Sligo-Limerick folly. Not one.

I said it before and I'll say it again. The Western Rail Corridor is the state religion of the Irish and British trainspotters and like all religions it has its fanatics who live in a world of paranioa and fear of anyone taking it away from them, as it makes up for all the personal failures and dissapointments in their own lives and they view the WRC are their salvation in many ways.

It's really sad and I feel sorry for them. To have this much personal hatred for a person you never met based on a stupid rail line in the West of Ireland really speaks volumns about how utterly empty the other aspects of their lives must be.

D'Peoples Voice

ocathais wrote:

'people' dont in general have a problem with it. There is one special individual however who harbours an unrequited hate for many railway groups top of the pile being West on Track.

Whatever else you said about me being a clone of another poster, you're entitled to your opinion, but I must pick you up on your comment that people in general don't have a problem with it.
People who are ignorant of whats going on, never have a problem with anything.
If the people of Mayo were asked, especially in North West Mayo, where perhaps more jobs have been lost than created over the last few years, is it worth spending 365 million euro on a railway that will not make their area more accessible for business, would they agree with it, I can tell you very few would. The problem is that they are being hoodwinked into believing this will create jobs.
Do these people really think that businesses will move there because people can access a train station several miles away? These areas need up to date broadband technology, they need adequate employment agencies to be able to source educated and a skilled workforce from all over the country should a company wish to move into the area, they need better access to markets, if that's freight, then better roads to Knock airport, Dublin port/airport, Rosslare port and Cork port/airport and Shannon airport. What they don't need is a passenger train taking precedence over everything else, especially when there isn't cronic traffic congestion.
They need to create fewer but bigger towns. Ever look for a decent restaurant in Castlebar or Belmullet? Who would set up there, there aren't the numbers.
I have yet to hear what type of business, people think will spring up around Mayo if they get a passenger train from Sligo town to Galway.
The people should be asked to choose between a half-arsed attempt at the Atlantic Road Corridor and a passenger train running almost parallel from Sligo to Galway, or a modern high quality dual carriageway/motorway.
Have the people of Mayo being given the choice, have they been told of the costings of both. Will the Western Rail Corridor end the old routine of raising kids just to send them away when they finish school.
If the Gov are prepared to spend EUR 365m + in that region on transport, then that money should be ringfenced and the people allowed to determine where it goes!