Western Rail Corridor

ishmael whale

He never came back. So we'll never know what it is that makes him think 'on balance' that the WRC is worth supporting. Which leaves me thinking he has no coherent case to make.

citycentre

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

They need to create fewer but bigger towns. Ever look for a decent restaurant in Castlebar or Belmullet? Who would set up there, there aren't the numbers.
I have yet to hear what type of business, people think will spring up around Mayo if they get a passenger train from Sligo town to Galway.
The people should be asked to choose between a half-arsed attempt at the Atlantic Road Corridor and a passenger train running almost parallel from Sligo to Galway, or a modern high quality dual carriageway/motorway.

Castlebar is actually a bit of a boom town at the moment and it definitely has it's share of decent restaurants etc. And it's basically because P. Flynn succeeded (through whatever means) to put in place a decent roads infrastructure around the town and most of the way back to the N4 in the late 80's/90's. Lots of development, although worryingly a brand new IDA business park resplendant with fountains and fancy paving has been sitting empty for the last 2 years since it's completion.

Unfortunately the Atlantic Corridor is already a done deal - Dual Carriageway from Limerick to Athenry and 2+1 for most of the missing links currently in planning. The Tuam Bypass is already at Tender stage as a 2+1.
I've heard that they work well but I have my doubts - unless farm traffic can be kept off the new roads entirely they could still be very frustrating. I think it's bizarre that no hard shoulders are to be provided which would allow slow moving vehicles to pull in on the single lane stretches. I can also imagine some recklessness at the ends of the 2km dual carriageways as people try to squeeze past one or two more slower moving vehicles...

Back to railways: I've been talking to a couple of pro-Athenry-Claremorris and beyond folks and about the only real reasoning I can get is that it would be more comfortable to get a train from Galway/Limerick to Sligo/Castlebar/Ballina. On that point I have to agree but I personally don't think it justifies actually doing it!
Surely there'd be sense in providing regular Express Bus routes from Galway to Sligo with one major stop in Claremorris from where a local bus network could fan out. Passengers for Castlebar or Ballina could hop on either another bus or the train from Claremorris. Of course this would rely on a major overhaul of Bus services in the area, including investment in more comfortable "Aircoach" style buses for the express routes, and synchronisation with railway services at Claremorris.
Of course all this would cost money but surely only a fraction of what it would take to reopen the railway line. And in my view such a strategy would lead to far more practical benefits than relaying a railway line that will get hardly any use anyway...
Of course, it's only a dream to imagine that our Bus and Rail companies would ever be capable of working in real collaboration to provide proper multi-mode transport solutions.

corktina

as regards 2+1 roads...you are right to be concerned....we have one, the first i think, between mallow and cork...it isnt pleasant to drive on and it is indeed a race track with no refuge if you break down or you are a tractor....i have grave misgiivngs about 2+1...
.....i think the current modern 2 lanes with hard shoulders are far more pleasant to drive on , provided that people are decent enough to move over when it is safe to do so...unfortunately many many MANY drivers are too bloody minded or incompetant to do this, even where there are crawler lanes provided....

Victor

corktina wrote:

as regards 2+1 roads...you are right to be concerned....we have one, the first i think, between mallow and cork...it isnt pleasant to drive on and it is indeed a race track with no refuge if you break down or you are a tractor....i have grave misgiivngs about 2+1...

Remember when the road got the name "Highway to Heaven?

There are relatively few "tractors" on that section because there is the old road and cattle underpasses.

jd

Looks like time is up for the Limerick -Rosslare line too, with the demise of the beet traffic. Certainly between Rosslare Harbour and Waterford. I can't help thinking about the Buchanan report, and how if Waterford had been developed into a city (in the population/development sense), that there may have been a case for Train services between waterford and Wexford,Kilkenny and Clonmel. Of course all the local pols were parochial, so the whole region loses out equally!!

Transport21 Fan

jd wrote:

Looks like time is up for the Limerick -Rosslare line too, with the demise of the beet traffic. Certainly between Rosslare Harbour and Waterford. I can't help thinking about the Buchanan report, and how if Waterford had been developed into a city (in the population/development sense), that there may have been a case for Train services between waterford and Wexford,Kilkenny and Clonmel. Of course all the local pols were parochial, so the whole region loses out equally!!

I can see the axe falling on that most of that line after the next election. The passenger service on the line is a disaster - cheaper to send the handful of passengers who use it by taxi. Clonmel is a growing town and needs a rail service and might survive, if the whole Boat Train anachonism is dumped. The rest of the line has limited passenger potential. Waterford has grown in every direction except along the rail lines.

The Sugar Beet industry was a joke anyways. It was kept afloat only by massive subsides and was a left over of Dev's Ireland. Rather than import sugar from British companies in the West Indies. The whole thing was a political football from day on - there was no reason in the world why they should have been a sugar factory in Tuam as beet cannot be grown near there. The factory was located in Tuam for poltical reasons only. Sound familiar.

We will never do things properly in this country. We are too small minded, myopic and afraid of change or radical new thinking. The local GAA county jersey is the defining icon of the Irish state. This is why Buchannan went into the same dustbin as the NSS.

patsyh

it would be a waste of money, it would cost a fortune to upgrade the line. it would be like a most bus eireann routes in the west, full of non paying pensioners looking for some way to pass the day.

SeanW

jd wrote:

Looks like time is up for the Limerick -Rosslare line too, with the demise of the beet traffic. Certainly between Rosslare Harbour and Waterford. I can't help thinking about the Buchanan report, and how if Waterford had been developed into a city (in the population/development sense), that there may have been a case for Train services between waterford and Wexford,Kilkenny and Clonmel. Of course all the local pols were parochial, so the whole region loses out equally!!

I really feel that an opportunity has been wasted in this case.

I absolutely agree that Sugarbeet subsidies had to go, especially intervention purchases. The EU bought so much produce in intervention schemes and ended up with piles of useless stuff - so to get rid of it they dumped it on 3rd world markets, and continued to do so at the behest of farming unions.

Problem: So much EU produce coming into Africa for next to nothing meant that local farmers could not compete in their own markets even though their own costs+transportation would have been a fraction of that of a foreign 1st world producer.

However, Irish consumption of biofuel is riduclously low - while most mainland European countries have biofuel policies including the Brits, and even in the oil-mad USA, the national government, numerous mainly agricultural states, a huge number of local governments all have biofuel policies including biodiesel minimum in fuel (Minnesota requires 2% biodiesel in diesel, some others require 10% ethanol in petrol) and countless individuals and companies are all either making their own biodiesel/ethanol or doing it commercially.

Brazil, with its huge sugarcane sector has a huge ethanol sector going as well.

Biofuels are clean, have positive energy balances, (very high for biodiesel) cut carbon emissions sharply, and also cut an adopting country's dependency on foreign oil and all that goes with it.

Meanwhile, what's happeneing re: biofuels in Ireland? Sweet feck all.

Ethanol (another word for pure alcohol) as a fuel works off much the same principle as petrol, spark-ignition, bang, engine parts start turning, away you go. Virtually all cars today can take E10 (10% ethanol with 90% petrol) with absolutely no problems at all whatsoever.

The government could have developed an ethanol policy, perhaps a mandate for (up to 10%) ethanol in petrol serious tax relief for ethanol usage or something, would have kept some local sugarbeet farmers on the land while ending the EU dumping, cut carbon emissions and increased the octane levels of the national fuel supply.

But no, they just let this happen.

BendiBus

I've thought this too. However I never heard the farmers screaming for an opportunity to move into the biofuel business.

Except for one in Cork on the news the other night. But the neighbours are objecting to his planning of a biofuel factory.

There's seems to be a serious lack of innovation in the farming industry. Reluctance to change on a grand scale.

Victor

SeanW wrote:

Biofuels are clean, have positive energy balances, (very high for biodiesel) cut carbon emissions sharply, and also cut an adopting country's dependency on foreign oil and all that goes with it.

I thought that virgin bio-fuels were currently dependant on subsidies and used more mineral oil than they produced?

The flip side is used vegetable oils are economic as it is reusing a waste product, but the supply is limited.

dowlingm

The Waterford-Rosslare bit might work as an alternative route to Dublin.

I think P11 are pushing this but I haven't been on that board much since they moved it.

Clonmel-Waterford-Rosslare (and New Ross? ) commuter could work too but the north quaylands being developed would be a must - also the railway station is in a bit of an awkward spot with that roundabout outside the front and a great big hill out back!

I feel with regard to biofuels the best option is to look at waste streams - there's a Nova Scotia firm doing good business with biodiesel from the waste of a fish oil processing plant for instance.

BendiBus

dowlingm wrote:

there's a Nova Scotia firm doing good business with biodiesel from the waste of a fish oil processing plant for instance.

So the Eastern Fish Corridor could fuel the Western Rail Corridor?

murphaph

BendiBus wrote:

So the Eastern Fish Corridor could fuel the Western Rail Corridor?

.....and with the WoT timetable of 3 rattlers a day you'd have a massive surplus of fuel!

SeanW

Victor wrote:

I thought that virgin bio-fuels were currently dependant on subsidies and used more mineral oil than they produced?

The first part is true, the second part is false.

Presently petrofuels are cheaper because the era of cheap oil isn't fully over yet. OPEC wants to get the best price it can obviously but they aren't going to price themselves out of business. So yes, some economic reliefs are required to make virgin feedstock biofuels competitive vis-a-vis petroleum - for now and mainly in the developed world.

As for biofuels needing more energy to produce, this is a myth pushed by a few, most notably David Pimentel, whose studies AFAIK have been widely criticised. I'm no expert on the matter but I believe biofuels do have a decent positive energy balance.

See a Biodiesel on Wikipedia Look for the section Efficiency and Economic Arguments

And as for the energy efficiency of biofuels versus petro-fuels, you might be surprised to learn that petroleum gasoline and diesel require more energy to drill, refine, transport etc than biofuels on average. Minn. Dept. Of Agriculture.

The flip side is used vegetable oils are economic as it is reusing a waste product, but the supply is limited.

That is true, waste veg oils are free and the refinment cost can be as little as cents to the litre. And as said there are multiple sources of convertable bio-waste, restaurants, fish processing places, some abbotoirs can be used for biodiesel.

I should note finally that 2 major inventors predicted dominance of biofuels in their time.

The Diesel engine was invented by Rudolf Diesel, who ran his engines on transesterified peanut oil. He thought biofuel would be the big thing.

Rudolf Diesel, 1911 wrote:

the Diesel engine can be fed with vegetable oils and would help considerably in the development of agriculture of the countries which use it

Most critically

Rudolf Diesel, 1 year later wrote:

The use of vegetable oils for engine fuels may seem insignificant today, but such oils may become, in the course of time as important as petroleum and the coal tar products of the present time

Agriculture has become a lot more efficient since then.

Henry Ford, it is said, also thought Ethanol was the fuel of the future, and early Ford cars were flex-fuel vehicles albeit very crude ones.

Transport21 Fan

BendiBus wrote:

So the Eastern Fish Corridor could fuel the Western Rail Corridor?

Now that's what I call social justice.

Transport21 Fan

from the county that gave us West on Track, City of the Sacred Heart, Knock Airport, Rossport Five and the Flynn Family comes this gem:

“In Mayo we have 19th century roads, an insufficient rail network, and an airport in need of investment. We have a highly skilled and educated work force in Mayo - but the problem is that most of them are living and working in the greater Dublin area.”

He also suggested that Co. Mayo, which had a traditional agricultural based economy, supplanted by industrial employment as a result of foreign direct investment, has become uncompetitive due to a lack of infrastructure.

“Does this government really have a positive, pro-jobs policy? If it does, it is only in effect in the eastern and southern half of Ireland.

“What Mayo needs is balanced regional development, and only when we receive the necessary investment in infrastructure and services can we start to offer an alternative to the Dublin and the east and south coasts of Ireland.”

http://www.westernpeople.ie/news/story.asp?j=30331

Transport21 Fan

You could set your clock by this same shower - god forbid they have any demands for the West which are based on reality or the real requirements. never once does the poor planning or the one-off housing disaster ever come up for discussion. Nah, the famers are sacred, even if they are the minority these days - the entire thrust of regional development must be based around what the IFA demands...

I agree with the public transport and broadband elements, but ALWAYS the stupid Western Rail Corridor gets thrown into the mix. These people really do demand Broadband, Gas and all utilites serving all one-off houses in the middle of nowhere. They are simply unwilling to think in terms of population clustering and building up urban centres west of the shannon:


http://www.westernpeople.ie/news/story.asp?j=30343

Wednesday, April 12, 2006

BMW meet Taoiseach on regional development

A DEPUTATION from the Border, Midland and Western Regional Assembly met with An Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, TD last week to present him with a submission on delivering balanced regional development in the next National Development Plan.

The six member deputation, led by Cathaoirleach, Cllr Michael McGreal, highlighted the many challenges facing the BMW region and set out the key investment priorities for the region. The deputation urged Mr Ahern to ensure that balanced regional development remained a core objective of the next NDP and called for mechanisms to be put in place to ensure that the planned investment is achieved.

The Taoiseach welcomed the Reginal Assembly’s submission and acknowledged the need for continued investment and more effective delivery of infrastructure and other investments in the future.

Cllr Michael McGreal expressed concern that the level of investment in national roads and public transport infrastructure had only reached about 60 per cent of forecast up to last year. He called for a stronger commitment to infrastructure in the regional, including investment in strategic road corridors, bringing forward the completion of the Western Rail Corridor, investment in regional airports, and broadband.

The deputation informed the Taoiseach of the Regional Assembly’s support for the extension of the natural gas supplies to more towns in the region and the development of renewable energy. The deputation called for increased investment in applied research and collaboration in the region’s Institutes of Technology. the group also called for better regional spread of investment in tourism attractions, highlighting in particular the low levels of investment to date in angling facilities and marine tourism.

The Taoiseach was presented with the Regional Assembly’s proposals for the next National Development Plan. In view of the under spends that had occurred under the current NDP, the deputation called for improved mechanisms to be put in place such as the earmarking of investment for the region, a stronger regional dimension in the plans and policies of state support agencies, and increased accountability of state agencies to regional bodies.

The deputation also called for continued investment to address local development and social inclusion issued and in particular to address the problems faced by low income farms.

An Taoiseach stated the he supported the need for balanced regional development. He informed the deputation that significant progress will be made in addressing transport infrastructure requirements under the ten year Transport 21 investment programme. He said that the Government was developing a new energy policy that would benefit the whole island and was supporting the further roll out of broadband infrastructure. He accepted the need to improve efficiency in the delivery of major investment programmes in the future.

The Taoiseach informed the deputation of his commitment to progress work on the Western Rail Corridor as quickly as possible and had emphasised this at a recent meeting with the Chairman of Iarnrod Eireann. The Director of the BMW Regional Assembly, Mr Gerry Flynn said the meeting with the Taoiseach had provided a valuable opportunity to raise strategic issues regarding regional development policy and to highlight the key investment priorities for the BMW region.

markf909

Transport21 Fan wrote:

from the county that gave us West on Track, City of the Sacred Heart, Knock Airport, Rossport Five and the Flynn Family comes this gem:



http://www.westernpeople.ie/news/story.asp?j=30331

I think one solution would be to "decentralise" Dublin brick by brick and rebuild it somewhere north of Claremorris along the WRC. But they'd probably complain about the blow-ins then :rolleyes:

BendiBus

I wonder what would happen if we had a Mayo Taoiseach after the next general election. All politics being local and all that jazz.

nollaig

Well, I'm in favour of it.

Ive had enough of spending an hour of getting from Galway-Claregalway!

D'Peoples Voice

Transport21 Fan wrote:

http://www.westernpeople.ie/news/story.asp?j=30343
The deputation informed the Taoiseach of the Regional Assembly’s support for the extension of the natural gas supplies

Do the Rossport Five know this?
In the whole piece, I never saw a mention of what Mayo CoCo are doing to help balanced development. What is in their county plan for the next 10 years?
What they seem to call their Development plan(s) is years behind that of South Dublin coco have on their website! Perhaps therein lies the problem.

murphaph

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

Do the Rossport Five know this?
In the whole piece, I never saw a mention of what Mayo CoCo are doing to help balanced development. What is in their county plan for the next 10 years?
What they seem to call their Development plan(s) is years behind that of South Dublin coco have on their website! Perhaps therein lies the problem.

How dare you sir?! Don't you know that it's a lack of funding from those mandarins in Dublin that has left Mayo CC so destitute that it can't afford a development plan! :rolleyes:

Mayo is gas altogether

Victor

An Taoiseach stated the he supported the need for balanced regional development. He informed the deputation that significant progress will be made in addressing transport infrastructure requirements under the ten year Transport 21 investment programme.

Don't tell that that T21 calls for the closing of the Ballina branch line.

http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/7048-7.pdf

Transport21 Fan

QUESTION: What Happens when you cross a CIE Employee's notion of Public Transport with that much loved British institution, the Western Rail Corridor:

ANSWER:

Sligo-Limerick rail link: former Station Master says it can be done
Sligo Champion By Michael Moran

A former Sligo Station Master has outlined proposals for the possible re-introduction of a passenger train service from Sligo to Limerick over the course of the next five years.

Mr. Des Twomey made his suggestions as intensive clearance work continues between Claremorris and Collooney on the Western Rail Corridor.

"In the present era to attract customers a fast train service is essential," said Mr. Twomey. "A new train service should only serve eleven stations-Sligo, Tubbercurry, Charlestown, Swinford, Kiltimagh, Claremorris, Tuam, Athenry, Gort, Ennis and Limerick."

He pointed out that the biggest centre of population next to Limerick on the line was Sligo.

Timetable

The former Station Master has also suggested a possible timetable, with the first train of four coaches and seating for 250 passengers departing Sligo at 08.30 and arriving in Limerick at 11.30. The train would depart Limerick again at 17.30 and arrive in Sligo at 20.30.

The second train, also with four coaches and seating for 250 passengers, would depart Limerick at 08.30 and arrive in Sligo at 11.30, with a departure from Sligo at 17.30 and arriving in Limerick at 20.30.

"A review of the service could be undertaken towards the end of the first year, and a third service introduced, if required, using the same two trains.

"This could give a departure from Sligo at 11.30 and arrival in Limerick at 16.00 and in the reverse direction, leaving Limerick at 13.00 and arriving in Sligo at 16.00," Mr. Twomey has proposed.

Transport

He adds that the rail service could provide transport to the two cities of Galway and Limerick, either for day trips or longer periods.

A change of train would be required at Athenry to travel into Galway. This line would also facilitate passengers travelling to Knock or Shannon Airports. A local transport operator could be provided to meet each train at Charlestown and Ennis Stations, Mr. Twomey said.

The former Station Master pointed out that of the eleven stations to be served by the new Sligo-Limerick service, only Tubbercurry, Charlestown, Swinford, Kiltimagh, Tuam and Gort would need to be upgraded.

CIE employees must all have the same genetic code which has them convinced that public transport is A) run according to the social lives of CIE employees and serves no other functions and make public transport as pointless to the public as possible.

Now this gentleman is retired and before any of us assume that this "sure it'll do, so get used to it" culture within CIE is a thing of the past, may I present Exhibit A: DOCKLANDS STATION

Victor

Whats halfway between the two and is there double track at that point?

Interesting usage of train - two trips a day. At least it cuts down on staff, maybe the driver will also sell the tickets?

dowlingm

he has one thing right - the Ennis-Claremorris part (which seems doomed to go ahead) MUST only serve major towns or points where it intersects other lines. Some villages that used to have rail service will no doubt demand it again but they must be told no or the train speeds will be even more of a joke than already - I hear 40mph for Ennis - Athenry is the word from IE :rolleyes:

nollaig

Milltown & Ballindine are due to get stations, yeah?

Transport21 Fan

Milltown & Ballindine are due to get stations, yeah?

Do these places actually exsist?

I have seen no evidence of these commuting towns except on the West-on-Track sticker. Can we send Ray Meyers in to have a look and hack his way through the undergrowth and see if he can find the car-less millions of north Clare and east Galway commuters waiting for their social justice?


Irish Railway News = "We're only making plans for Nigel."

nollaig

Do these places actually exsist?

I have seen no evidence of these commuting towns except on the West-on-Track sticker. Can we send Ray Meyers in to have a look and hack his way through the undergrowth and see if he can find the car-less millions of north Clare and east Galway commuters waiting for their social justice?


Irish Railway News = "We're only making plans for Nigel."

eh, yeah, Just wondering cos whenever I read about this in papers, they were mentioned. Seemed a little silly alright, but then again, I hear that there are a lot of housing developments going up in that area

road_high

When i heard about the WRC project first i thought it was a great idea and exactly the kind of ambitious infrastructure this country needs..
I'm from Kilkenny and think it would be great to finally have a rail service not just focused on Dublin.Hope they proceed ASAP with it.