Western Rail Corridor

cil_aine

mfitzy wrote:

When i heard about the WRC project first i thought it was a great idea and exactly the kind of ambitious infrastructure this country needs..
I'm from Kilkenny and think it would be great to finally have a rail service not just focused on Dublin.Hope they proceed ASAP with it.

OOOOh you're in for it now!

nollaig

I cant see why people would be acceptable of a line from Tuam southwards but not northwards. Surely, if this goes ahead, it should go to claremorris to interlink with the westport-dublin line.

MrJones

Yes Milltown and Ballindine do exist. first is in galway, the second in mayo.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Do these places actually exsist?

I have seen no evidence of these commuting towns except on the West-on-Track sticker. Can we send Ray Meyers in to have a look and hack his way through the undergrowth and see if he can find the car-less millions of north Clare and east Galway commuters waiting for their social justice?


Irish Railway News = "We're only making plans for Nigel."

MrJones

exactly just put the lines back into motion.

nollaig wrote:

I cant see why people would be acceptable of a line from Tuam southwards but not northwards. Surely, if this goes ahead, it should go to claremorris to interlink with the westport-dublin line.

Transport21 Fan

The WRC is looking to be an even bigger white elephant that first thought.

Other than Galway-Athenry upgrade (badly needed) what is the point of opening to Tuam and Ennis really. Tuam is a tiny town and the WRC goes nowhere close to Claregalway. The Ennis-Athenry section on paper looks to be a useful link between Limerick and Galway - but this depends on how many trains CIE will be running a day and speeds - and will only appeal to people who want to take the train regardless. Is there enough people willing to do this? Are the numbers on the Limerick-Rosslare line so impressive that it serves as a good reason to open an almost identically demographic line between Athenry and Ennis?

Just think how many miles of light rail could of been built in Galway and Limerick cities right into the heart of car comuting suburbs and how many QBC and buses could have been set up and running with the money being blown on this WRC tokenist farce. This would have made a huge impact into congestion in and around these cities.

I am sure the thousands of commuters in Milltown will emulate the rush-hour train masses already enjoying their rail service at Attymon and Woodland. God forbid we actually provide public transport in this country were it might actually be useful to people. :rolleyes:

dowlingm

As Nollaig said, Claremorris is good from the point of view of opening alternative routes. Ennis-Athenry offers the possibility of Dublin bound trains routing from there rather than Limerick. I'd like to see Mullingar-Athlone opened too. The more alternative routes, the easier it is to find slots for special trains, freight, etc.

spacetweek

nollaig wrote:

I cant see why people would be acceptable of a line from Tuam southwards but not northwards. Surely, if this goes ahead, it should go to claremorris to interlink with the westport-dublin line.

The line to Tuam is for commuting purposes only. To continue to Claremorris would mean it was for interurban trips too - for which a proper business case has yet to be presented.

MarkoP11

No formal business case has been produced for any of the WRC. You can safely ignore the West On Track document with massaged accounts which showed that in some werid universe that the WRC would be the only profitable railway in the country

Ennis Athenry Galway happens really by accident as the commuter services of Limerick and Galway (where the business is) overlap, the fact you can run a Galway Limerick service is a bonus.

Only Ennis Athenry was recommended for reopening the rest is well for one purpose only votes

nollaig

The line to Tuam is for commuting purposes only. To continue to Claremorris would mean it was for interurban trips too - for which a proper business case has yet to be presented.

Im not an expert on this. But Tuam & Claremorris are so near each other, it would seem silly not to do so. It would hardly cost much more to reopen the line to Claremorris (if they are going to go as far as Tuam?)

Tuam is a tiny town

hmm, I dont think you could class Tuam as a tiny town. Its grown bigtime in the last couple of years.

MarkoP11

I wouldn't call 17 miles close, the further north you go the worse the condition of the line, beyond Tuam it gets really bad as it was built on the cheap, the cost goes from 2.2 million/mile to 3.5 million/mile and that figure does not include the trains to run the service.

All that is needed is a cost benefit analysis to prove its a waste of tax payers money which would be better spent where there is real measurable demand, say Limerick City.

No one has been able to produce a solid case for Tuam let alone Claremorris and for what 3 trains a day its not worth it and the fact is the bus would be faster, cheaper and would be able to serve all the little villages on the way

Population Tuam about 6,000 Claremorris 2,500 thats small

nollaig

I wouldn't call 17 miles close, the further north you go the worse the condition of the line, beyond Tuam it gets really bad as it was built on the cheap, the cost goes from 2.2 million/mile to 3.5 million/mile and that figure does not include the trains to run the service.

As I said, I'm no expert. But surely 17 miles isnt that big a deal, considering you will be openin up numerous alternative routes and the line is already there. Its not like there will be any issues with putting a track through farmers land or anything. But Im no expert:D

MrJones

MarkoP11 wrote:

I wouldn't call 17 miles close, the further north you go the worse the condition of the line, beyond Tuam it gets really bad as it was built on the cheap, the cost goes from 2.2 million/mile to 3.5 million/mile and that figure does not include the trains to run the service.

All that is needed is a cost benefit analysis to prove its a waste of tax payers money which would be better spent where there is real measurable demand, say Limerick City.

No one has been able to produce a solid case for Tuam let alone Claremorris and for what 3 trains a day its not worth it and the fact is the bus would be faster, cheaper and would be able to serve all the little villages on the way

Population Tuam about 6,000 Claremorris 2,500 thats small

17 miles is not much, its pretty much straight forward line as well, as nollaig said just agricultural land.
population of tuam closer to 10,000 at this stage. suburbs expanding all the time. fact is that tuam and clairemorris are commuter towns. bring on the trains/

maxheadroom

MrJones wrote:

17 miles is not much

17 miles at €3.5 million a mile is €59.5 million

MarkoP11

Census 2002 says 5847 live in Tuam thats the only figure you can use and thats the one used for planning purposes

It would be a planning disaster to condone people commuting from Claremorris to Galway its just repeating the Dublin style sprawl, that said three trains a day will be a fanastic service just ideal for commuters

The line has many corners and some steep sections and many level crossings its going to be 60 mph tops it won't be the fast way to anywhere really

Same money spent in Limerick would be vastly more beneficial providing a service where there is demand where people would use the service.

This is more about votes than good planning after all Mayo is once off housing central which is the direct opposite to the kind of development you need to support a rail service

murphaph

17 miles isn't much................in the context of connecting a town of tens of thousands to the network. Wait a second, it's exactly 17 miles from the end of the Dunboyne siding to Navan! Navan has been long fingered though, but it's only 17 miles. Now think about that folks of Claremorris etc. They are longfingering a 17 mile connection along a pretty much intact alignment to a very large town (to be larger than the likes of Galway in a few short years) from the only european scale city in Ireland (Dublin), so if it's difficult for them to justify that, then consider yourselves very lucky it's even going to Tuam.

Transport21 Fan

Are you kidding me. In places like Tuam and Claremorris they are disgusted that they did not get a TGV from Sligo to Rosslare and via the Tuskar Tunnel to New York via Tokyo. It's social justice to counter-balance the over spending of money on rail services in the East.

The biggest problem with Meath-on-Track's campaign is that the virgin Mary never appeared in Trim. I suggest NavanJunction get a white sheet and flashlight ASAP.

MrJones

TGV Tuam to tokyo via new york, now yer talking.
I can see yeah,could definitely be a runner, but there would still be a station in clairemorris yeah?
but seriously bring on the trains via wrc

Transport21 Fan wrote:

In places like Tuam and Claremorris they are disgusted that they did not get a TGV from Sligo to Rosslare and via the Tuskar Tunnel to New York via Tokyo.

nollaig

Census 2002 says 5847 live in Tuam thats the only figure you can use and thats the one used for planning purposes

But since that time, there has been a bit of a building boom in Tuam and I have no doubt that the figure has gone up. How can you use a figure that is 4years old anyways? Surely, there is another way to calculate the current population.

Transport21 Fan

Mind you, if they got the Sligo-Rosslare TGV none of them would use it. But they still want it. Same thing with Claremorris, the locals will spend their time looking at empty railcars showing up a few times a day and think it is great.

Has anyone else notice that as predicted WestonTrack have all but vanished from the scene now that XXXX millions has been allocated to reopen the WRC are far as Claremorris? All the eager trainspotters and others who supportted WRC won't be invited on the inagural train to Claremorris...They served their purpose. Mayo local interests have been satisfied.



I am sure that East-on-Water will invite me and all the other canal enthusiats to the opening of the Eastern Fish Corridor after all the work we have done for them promoting their project. If not, I'll hi-jack 45M and crash me and Dick Warner into the Donegal Catch factory.

MarkoP11

We can wait for this years numbers so, one of the reasons a census is done it to accurately determine the population and more importantly the services that are needed based on the breakdown. The census does ask how long it takes to get to your place of employment

Fact is if it wasn't for the fact there is an election coming Tuam Claremorris would be dead, Tuam Athenry would be very shaky.

Every other rail commuter corridor has to play second fiddle the WRC, kinda feel sorry for Cork CC who spent ages getting there planning in order and getting levies in place to support a railway to Midleton only to see the cowboys in Mayo CC get a railway with no effort or expense with no conditions on planning

nollaig

Marko, Are you in favour of any of the line being re-opened?

murphaph

MarkoP11 wrote:

Every other rail commuter corridor has to play second fiddle the WRC, kinda feel sorry for Cork CC who spent ages getting there planning in order and getting levies in place to support a railway to Midleton only to see the cowboys in Mayo CC get a railway with no effort or expense with no conditions on planning

Indeed, more than any LA in Ireland, Cork CC have been shafted on this. Work their balls off for literally decades with CASP and so on, develop Midleton and crucially, industry and employment right along the line, and then get no further along than a bunch of cowboys in Mayo CC who have allowed one off housing to beat the band, the very worst possible thing for arailway to survive is to dilute the population. Votes, pure and simple.

nollaig

Surely a town the size of Tuam needs a decent public transport system. If the population was almost 6000 in 2002, then that could easily have doubled to 12000 since then. Then you have to take into account the amount of villages and smaller towns outside Tuam, Wouldnt these avail of a new rail service just as towns outside Castlebar do?

Buses from Tuam go nowhere the midlands andIts very very awkward to get to the south. If I was from Tuam (which thankfully Im not:D ) I wouldnt be too pleased with the current state of the public transport there

MarkoP11

nollaig wrote:

Marko, Are you in favour of any of the line being re-opened?

Athenry Ennis since there is a business case, it supports commuter services in Limerick and Galway and forms a regional link between two cities and its reasonably good value for the distance. This section is the only one to actually be formally recommended for reopening

Tuam Athenry is suspect and might be justified but beyond Tuam is just to keep the sheep entertained unless Mayo CC abandons its once off housing free for all and takes a leaf out of Corks book

The one thing that most people would like to see is a formal independent cost benefit analysis (as the Department of Finance will seek) to show once and for all the true costs (track only is quoted, not stations, trains etc) and the benefits that accrue

Value for money is needed not an monument, rail only really works on high density well planned development and that is certainly not Mayo. It must be remembered the line closed because there where no passengers and with the nice upgraded road going in the bus will be faster, cheaper and serve a greater area of population

Instead of seaking votes the money should be spent on where it can really make a difference, Galway Oranmore, more track more stations. Limerick Raheen, Nenagh etc. The worst thing that could be done is to build a line that will end up like Limerick Waterford where heaps of money will have to be spent propping it up for decades. Passenger numbers Limerick Junc Waterford are single digits despite a increase in frequency and Clonmel has a population of 16,000+

Victor

nollaig wrote:

Surely a town the size of Tuam needs a decent public transport system. If the population was almost 6000 in 2002, then that could easily have doubled to 12000 since then.

Why double, why not triple or more. Question, have 3,000+ houses been built in Tuam in that time?

Buses from Tuam go nowhere the midlands andIts very very awkward to get to the south.

Isn't there a regular Sligo-Cork bus?

John R

nollaig wrote:

Surely a town the size of Tuam needs a decent public transport system. If the population was almost 6000 in 2002, then that could easily have doubled to 12000 since then. Then you have to take into account the amount of villages and smaller towns outside Tuam, Wouldnt these avail of a new rail service just as towns outside Castlebar do?

Buses from Tuam go nowhere the midlands andIts very very awkward to get to the south. If I was from Tuam (which thankfully Im not:D ) I wouldnt be too pleased with the current state of the public transport there

Buses from Tuam:

Athlone (1h15) and Dublin (3h30) 2 Daily (8 Daily Via Galway)

Galway (40mns) 11 daily

Shannon (2h20) Limerick (3hrs) Cork (5hrs) 8 Daily

Waterford (6hrs) 6 Daily

Sligo (2hrs) Derry (4h40) 5 Daily

Claremorris (25mns) 8 Daily

Ballina (1h45) 5 Daily

Not bad for a town of it's size


The WRC isn't going to significantly improve the journey times for most of these and will have a considerably lower frequency than most.

Transport21 Fan

and I bet there are a few private operators on the route as well.

This perfectly illustrates the mentality of some people who want the Western Rail Corridor opened because they read about it in some West of Ireland newspaper. They are not public transport users and frankly do not even bother to investigate the public transport situation in their town - they just come right in with the automatic assumption that becuase they live west of the Shannon they are somehow victimised and have no public transport becuase the Jackeens are keeping it all for themselves and won't share it.

All things considered Tuam has a fairly good bus service (but it could be better as well). In terms of commuting to Galway it is do-able and certainly provides vastly superior frequency and flexibilty than a train from Tuam to Galway would.

Most people just want the WRC opened because it is the West and they really have no intention of using it to commute. The tiny handful who might consider using it will pass on the idea as soon as they realise that a couple of trains a day is not a commuter service and the choo-choo takes them nowhere near where they work in Galway. This is what has happened in Clonmel, Cahir and it will happen in Tuam and Claremorris as well. The WRC will only emmulate the absolute and complete failure of the Limerick - Rosslare line.

But who cares about reality, the truth, facts surrounding the viability of the WRC, sure aren't we just all a shower West of Ireland haters for not supporting West on Track no questions asked...

paulm17781

My mother thinks the western rail corridor should be opened. She would never use it but thinks "it's not fair". Living in Dublin she probably wouldn't be commuting from Mayo to Limerick on a daily basis. It shows the sort of people who want it open are the people who would probably never actually use it.

nollaig

Why double, why not triple or more. Question, have 3,000+ houses been built in Tuam in that time?

Ok, Maybe I exaggerated a bit. But there is no doubt that a **** load of houses have gone up in Tuam since then. Theres also a load of immigrants that have arrived in Tuam in the last year. Then you have the surrounding places like Barnadearg, Mountbellew, Dunmore, Milltown, Cortoon, Kilconly, Caherlistrane, Corofin and Clonberne. All of these are experiencing a load of new houses been built. Tuam would serve all of these areas.

Buses from Tuam:

Athlone (1h15) and Dublin (3h30) 2 Daily (8 Daily Via Galway)

Galway (40mns) 11 daily

Shannon (2h20) Limerick (3hrs) Cork (5hrs) 8 Daily

Waterford (6hrs) 6 Daily

Sligo (2hrs) Derry (4h40) 5 Daily

Claremorris (25mns) 8 Daily

Ballina (1h45) 5 Daily

I dont think it is particularly good especially as most of the routes require a change at Galway bus station. And god help anybody who isnt familiar with that station and is travelling. Pure and utter chaos there. The ones that require changing in Athlone are better. I admit though, that the buses going north from Tuam are satisfactory.

This perfectly illustrates the mentality of some people who want the Western Rail Corridor opened because they read about it in some West of Ireland newspaper. They are not public transport users and frankly do not even bother to investigate the public transport situation in their town - they just come right in with the automatic assumption that becuase they live west of the Shannon they are somehow victimised and have no public transport becuase the Jackeens are keeping it all for themselves and won't share it.

When I lived in Tuam, I used the public transport all the time. Going from Tuam to Galway and from Tuam to Castlebar all the time on buses.

All things considered Tuam has a fairly good bus service (but it could be better as well). In terms of commuting to Galway it is do-able and certainly provides vastly superior frequency and flexibilty than a train from Tuam to Galway would.

This depends on the time of day that you would be travelling at. Certainly a train would be quicker if you travel at peak traffic points.

sure aren't we just all a shower West of Ireland haters for not supporting West on Track no questions asked...

So very true!:D

My mother thinks the western rail corridor should be opened. She would never use it but thinks "it's not fair". Living in Dublin she probably wouldn't be commuting from Mayo to Limerick on a daily basis. It shows the sort of people who want it open are the people who would probably never actually use it.

Well, I'd use it!


As I said, Im no expert but nobody has given any decent reason for this track not to re-opened. As far as I can see, the only argument ye come up with is that it does not make business sense. But what do ye base this on? The 2002 census figures? The fact that there's a few buses that go from Tuam to Galway every day along one of the busiest )& dangerous) roads in the country. But then, I'm no expert:D

NavanJunction1

Transport21 Fan wrote:

get a white sheet and flashlight ASAP.

You've given me an idea - well, sort of...