Western Rail Corridor

paulm17781

nollaig wrote:

Well, I'd use it!

How often?

How often do you think other people would?

nollaig

How often?

QUOTE]

I'd use it twice a day to commute to work Monday to Friday if the times suited

How often?

How often do you think other people would?

No idea. I'd imagine some would stick to the bus but some would choose the train.

paulm17781

nollaig wrote:

I'd use it twice a day to commute to work Monday to Friday if the times suited

Running three trains per day from Mayo to Limerick. Good luck.

The times most likely won't suit.

nollaig

Running three trains per day from Mayo to Limerick. Good luck.

The times most likely won't suit.

Dont see why not. One early enough in the morning and another anytime after 5.

dermo88

"surrounding places like Barnadearg, Mountbellew, Dunmore, Milltown, Cortoon, Kilconly, Caherlistrane, Corofin and Clonberne"

Straight away, I can read the names of these places, and by the sounds of them they are nothing but bogs, with a heavy population of rabbits (waiting to be wiped out by myxomytosis), crows, cattle and sheep.

I suppose when I read "theres also a load of immigrants that have arrived in Tuam in the last year", did they by any chance happen to have cars, or are you fantasising about Magda from Poland wearing her shawl dancing at the crossroads waiting for the 15.45 to Sligo? If so, get a drivers licence, drive to Londis, buy some coffee. Stop wasting your time, the taxpayers time.

The 3 trains a day each way daily was relevant to the Victorian age. It was relevant even up until the 1970's when there was a large non car owning population. But please cop yourselves on. This stupid insane bogtrotter rail project is no more use than a fart in a lift to the people of Ireland, to the rail network, and to the people in the East in places between Clonsilla and Navan where they have to pay development levies to get their line reopened.

I repeat what I said before. Get a plough, get a tractor, and put it between the sleepers between Athenry and Collooney. Throw a few hectolitres of miracle grow down, and end this ****e for once and for all.

nordydan

I take it then dermo88 that you wouldnt be in favour of opening the Downpatrick-Ardglss rail line either?

dermo88

I'd be more in favour of that than the likes of the Athenry to Collooney disused former freight only light railway branch line, or the Athenry-Collooney branch for short. I will not insult viable projects by calling it a "Corridor". Its a branch line. Repeat 10 times....."Branch line". Very good. Now what do "Branch lines" do.

Carry a few passengers.
Lose shedloads of money.
Are nice and romantic.
Charming and sweet.

They are not like modern railways, which should be

"Carrying lots of passengers"
"Lose money with purpose"
"Are smart and efficient"
"Fast and clean"

Lets call it what it is, and I suggest everyone, calls it that.

Hey nollaig, Happy Christmas, your branchline won't reopen. Heres some ash for ballast so you can lay some HO gauge track. I might throw in a nice Lima CIE train set, with a metrovick and 3 Mark 1's.....from the 1970's. Every day, you can reenact the day when B145 trundled down from Ballina to Limerick with 2 coaches (capacity 120 passengers) on 5th April 1976, and pity the poor polish immigrants who could or should be using the train, but they have a Ford Focus instead. Have you got back from Londis yet?

Nordydan - The BCDR closures and the Northern Ireland closures of the 1950's were a serious mistake. If there was any way of changing them, then reopening Comber to Donaghadee would be a high priority. Downpatrick to Ardglass, thats fine for a tourist or preserved railway.

The line between Athenry and Collooney.....the biggest mistake was not closing it as soon as the Beddy report emerged in 1956, and having a proper Limerick to Galway service, which would have survived and thrived. But that was CIE then, and this is now.

dowlingm

Maybe a few more single railcars need to be acquired for these political routes. Then you have a train which is really a bus.

Transport21 Fan

There is a major public meeting in Sligo this week to have the Claremorris-Coolloney section of the WRC included in Transport21. Apparently they are making some sense by WestonTrack standards. The plan is to build up housing estates and towns near the site of the stations - this is a completely new approach by WoT as previously the only business case they offered for reopening the WRC was based on Irish taxpayers funding British trainspotters holidays in Ireland.

So it's nice to see they finally get it at last. That trains and population desitity are the same thing.

Sadly there are almost 30 years behind Cork who still haven't got their railway to Midleton yet.

I shall be attending this meeting. I'll provide a headcount of the trainspotters present looking for Irish taxpayers to buy them their social justice. I believe Nigel from Bury-St-Edmonds is rather upset about Swinford Viaduct still being off limits.

paulm17781

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The plan is to build up housing estates and towns near the site of the stations

Wow, they may actually make this section viable.:eek: If they did that it could be worth opening.

Aidan1

More to the point, if DoT can get WOT to agree to a threshold population density that would trigger the reopening, then they may be on to something. Not least because that would effectively kill the project in the medium term, and may focus minds locally on the benefits of proper planning in the long term. A formal linkage would really help, in other words.

Transport21 Fan

Some Dutch planning guru was touring the West last few weeks and told the councils and planners that they better stop building one-off houses and start building up their towns along rail links.

In Sligo this message is being listened to (Mayo is completely hopeless as usual). I was on the radio up here a couple of weeks back talking about the Metro/Sligo Line connection at Drumcondra and the response was very positive as it is viewed as one more element of the "Gateway City". There is a real desire to build Sligo up into a proper city and the whole culture and trust of the county seems to be towards this end. There is a momentum to make north Sligo and urban region and it's in full gear now. The scale of development in Sligo itself are pretty impressive and new major projects are being announced each week. Sligo wants to be a proper city very badly and it's great to see.

I am delighted to see the Sligo elements of WestonTrack bringing this thinking to the fore. Now if we could just get CIE to have the Sligo local bus services connected with the BE/IE station...

murphaph

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Some Dutch planning guru was touring the West last few weeks and told the councils and planners that they better stop building one-off houses and start building up their towns along rail links.

yeah I saw that reported. The poor Mr. Van Der Sensible nearly keeled over when he saw what we were allowing happen in our countryside by all accounts. He couldn't believe we were geting it so wrong. Who could blame him?

Good to hear the response has been positive up there Thomas. If Sligo can show how to develop an urban city then best of luck to them. If they are successful I imagine they would much rather see doubling the Sligo-Dublin line and increasing frequencies there than the train through rural Mayo though!

spacetweek

murphaph wrote:

yeah I saw that reported. The poor Mr. Van Der Sensible nearly keeled over when he saw what we were allowing happen in our countryside by all accounts. He couldn't believe we were geting it so wrong. Who could blame him?

The Dutch know how it's done. I've been to the Netherlands many times and it is an impeccably organised, efficient country - the best I've ever seen.

Sligo needs to go full-size city in order to form an urban area and start attracting development from the region. The West needs one or more urban areas if it is to survive. The WRC should be long-fingered until this can be seen to be happening.

NavanJunction1

Report warns of growing gap between east and west
Tim O'Brien, 10/05/2006

The western region needs a new vision if it is to compete in the knowledge economy, according to a report to be presented to the Government this morning.

It shows many people in the west work in vulnerable industries such as farming, construction and traditional manufacturing.

The Western Development Commission (WDC) submission on what should be included in the National Development Plan 2007-2013 will warn Government that the region is in danger of being characterised by poor access, single-carriageway roads, inferior telecommunications and inadequate energy supplies.

Assessing the impact of the last national development plan, the WDC has concluded that while progress has been made, the gap between the developed east and the west is now greater than it was seven years ago.

The report says the next national development plan will be funded from the State's own resources, and there will not be separate funding operational programmes for the BMW and southern and eastern regions.

Because of this it argues that if the west is to be part of the knowledge economy, there is need for a new "regional knowledge initiative" which should focus on addressing the knowledge, innovation, skills and applied research needs of sectors in the region.

The initiative should be focused on the north of the region, which the WDC notes has fallen behind the knowledge-based clusters around Shannon. It should bring together knowledge, education, skills and training, as well as networking between third-level institutions.

The report recommends that current levels of investment in infrastructure be rapidly increased. Particularly it recommends:

r Prioritising road investment to make dual-carriageways of the main radial routes such as the N4, N5, N2 and the N14, and the gateway-hub links such as the Atlantic road corridor;

r Improvements in mainline rail services to the region should be expedited and the entire Western rail corridor from Ennis to Sligo completed by 2013;

r Airports, particularly those with international access, should be supported as drivers of regional development;

r There needs to be a clear statement that energy infrastructure deficits must not be barriers to regional development;

r The development of renewable energy should be a priority in the NDP;

r The NDP should set out a national strategy for universal access to high-quality, affordable broadband by the end of 2007, and put in place the technical means to deliver this through public and private investment.

Saying the Central Statistics Office has forecast a State population of five million by 2021, the report claims the Greater Dublin Area will account for more than half that growth.

Because of this it argues that planning for the next NDP needs more than simple incremental increases in regional development.

© The Irish Times

MarkoP11

Of course what they don't say is the population growth will be in Limerick and Galway in the main not in a field full of sheep in Mayo along the WRC

Doesn't say anything about sensible planning to focus development

Once off housing thats the problem without density services cannot be justified

dermo88

"Improvements in mainline rail services to the region should be expedited and the entire Western rail corridor from Ennis to Sligo completed by 2013"

Silly silly silly. They have'nt copped on. Address it by its proper title.

"The Athenry to Collooney BRANCH line".

Repeat it often enough and they might go away.

As regards improvements to the West of Ireland rail services, I see only one, maybe two at mos. major infrastructural deficiences in the existing network, and dealing with it would make a huge difference.

1. Double track the entire former MGWR line to Galway
2. Reinstate Mullingar to Athlone as Double track, and have all mainline servies to Galway run via the old route. Its closer to Dublins city centre than Heuston.

Transport21 Fan

at the meeting in Sligo the other night the Mayo people from WestonTrack came up to announce VERY confidently that the WRC from Ennis to Claremorris will be open and operational by 2009 (or 2010 by the latest) and that the WRC to Sligo has every chance of being completed by 2011.

The whole general atitude was basically that people in the know are aware that Transport21 means nothing and the WRC will be the premier national rail project in the coming years - the Dublin Metro, Midleton and the Interconnector are all second place to the WRC.

One very much got the impression that perhaps WoT have gotten the nod's and winks from the Government that they are going to get everything they want...and the thing is I beleive them. I really do.

dowlingm

the people they're speaking to will probably believe them in 2009 when they say "we were betrayed by the guvmint". The people touting Nostradamus and the end of the world a few years back were dead confident too.

NavanJunction1

Transport21 Fan wrote:

they are going to get everything they want...and the thing is I beleive them. I really do.

I believe them too. Irrespective of whether it is justified etc, the campaigners along that route have been very good at working the system to get what they want.

They have mobilised popular support, made it a massive on the doors want and corralled the politicians from all parties into supporting it.

To be honest, you can only take your hats off to them. They have managed to make that line between Limerick and Sligo more important than any other rail project in the country, and you can only admire them for it.

It's a pity politicians in this neck of the wood don't cooperate like that. But mind you, it's easier to garner support if you aren't going to be levied the cost of the project.

I reckon that is what's wrong in Meath - they want the railway but not the levies..

MarkoP11

I very much doubt we will see anything carrying a passenger north of Athenry in the next 10 years, its actually impossible to have it all done by 2009

West on Track sold a story of a profitable railway running in the middle of nowhere, no one has stopped to check if it actually works and its going to be a serious shock when someone turns around and asks for the cost benefit anyalsis and then says right you guys haven't a hope in hell and even if you did we need half the cost in development levies.

Transport21 Fan

Apparently there is now talk of a new lobby rail group called 'Sligo Says Yes' which has been formed with members of West on Track and the Sligo Chamber of Commerce to put pressure on the Government to have the northerb half of the WRC fully opened and operational by 2011.

WestonTrack reps also said something interesting the other night - that IE management are now positive about the WRC.

paulm17781

Transport21 Fan wrote:

WestonTrack reps also said something interesting the other night - that IE management are now positive about the WRC.

If that is true they really have given up on public transport.

MarkoP11

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Apparently there is now talk of a new lobby rail group called 'Sligo Says Yes' which has been formed with members of West on Track and the Sligo Chamber of Commerce to put pressure on the Government to have the northerb half of the WRC fully opened and operational by 2011.

Thats gonna need a works order application

Transport21 Fan wrote:

WestonTrack reps also said something interesting the other night - that IE management are now positive about the WRC.

Probably a case of Barry Kenny saying anything to shut them up, the CEO Dick Fearn is very firm on its not IE's problem it only becomes there problem if the minister issues an instruction not to mention the subsidy to make it work

DerekP11

IE are irrelevent in the context of reopening this line. Its only relevent to them in relation to operating it and getting the increased subsidy to run it. Furthermore, it would appear that rolling stock for the line, ie. A TRAIN, hasn't been ordered and there aren't very many spare to do the job. I would add to this the prospect of union problems when it comes to crewing and staffing this line. New coaches have been in the country since last Summer and they still aren't running, due to union problems. IE are blaming a cow in Tipperary.:D

So its reasonable to assume that the reintroduction of services on any part of the WRC is still a long way from happening.

I'd disagree with Navanjunction1 on the success of the WOT campaign, because there is and always has been, in my lifetime, a natural victom com-plex in the west of Ireland. Even FF TDs and councillors suffer from it and they tend to be very isolationist in their business. (A different breed to those in the east.) Irish history clearly lays out how the least British influenced part of Ireland was the west all the way back to the days of Brehon law and before. Thats probably why those in the east are known as WEST BRITS.:D

When things were bad in the east, they were very bad in the west. Its was at times almost like a different country. The victom complex has been passed down from generation to generation and some people in the west still believe that they are hard done by and the celtic tiger has bypassed them. Thats why any, and I mean any campaign for improving anything in the west of Ireland, will be high profile, because its driven by hundreds of years of traditional seperatist and cultural divisionist mentality that geography assisted it with.

Of course any sane minded people, will understand that the west of Ireland has enjoyed many fruits of the celtic tiger and has always been the jewel in the crown of the Irish tourist product. Its difficulty in attracting investment was actually the poor infrastructure between it and the east and not that between small towns and cities along the atlantic coast. The Western Development Commission (prime supporters of the WRC) recently called for the fast tracking of the motorway programme between Dublin and Galway/Limerick to aid investment. Furthermore, while they moan about the apparent lack of investment in the west of Ireland, they actually ran a campaign in the eastern media last year encouraging all us "west brits" to move west, because it had better child care, less traffic and an overall better quality of life. They aren't telling porkies either. Its great over there. So its a pity that a small group of traditionalists (both political and voluntary) continue to stigmatise a wonderful place that is and very much an important part of this island.

Ive been a regular visitor to the west for many years and ive witnessed the transformation. On one particular visit last year to the launch of the McCann report in Castlebar, I dined with a native of Ballina. He was working and living in Dublin and was a staunch supporter of the WRC. I asked him why he wanted to see the WRC reopened considering the more pressing projects in the east and his reply was as follows....the west never got anything, so why shouldn't we have it.

Hundreds of years of history, embedded in his head. The reality of the situation....pouring out of his ears.

Victor

Transport21 Fan wrote:

WestonTrack reps also said something interesting the other night - that IE management are now positive about the WRC.

I take it then that the minister will be giving themn the money.

SeanW

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Apparently there is now talk of a new lobby rail group called 'Sligo Says Yes' which has been formed with members of West on Track and the Sligo Chamber of Commerce

Lead by that fine fellow, Louis Doherty, who, in his infininte wisdom, canvassed against "hand-me-downs" Mark 3 coaches from the Dublin-Cork Intercity service being used on the Sligo line, not that IE took much convincing against the idea, and now partly thanks to him, the Dublin Sligo line has those godawful 29000s.

This should be fun.

NavanJunction1

DerekP11 wrote:

I'd disagree with Navanjunction1 on the success of the WOT campaign, because there is and always has been, in my lifetime, a natural victim complex in the west of Ireland.

Ok, but that doesn't seem to take away from their campaign - in fact they've used the East-West divide to their advantage. And hey, getting five counties going is an achievement and lets face it in the county I live in, our boys haven't even managed ensure the proper maintainence and upgrade even of the existing track.

My observation is that they have been very single minded about their project. And the reality is that they HAVE run a popular campaign (success has yet to be determined of course), and they have gotten their communities behind their campaign. But that has probably been due to the absense of levies. Ie, locally they aren't paying for it.

Whether it reopens or not is another issue, and I blow hot or cold and like everyone else constantly wonder what really is going on over there.

One minute I believe they have achieved their aims, the next I pinch myself and say no, Cork-Midleton and other grid-locked places like Navan could not be placed futher down the list of priorities than the WRC.

But there you have it.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Apparently there is now talk of a new lobby rail group called 'Sligo Says Yes' which has been formed with members of West on Track and the Sligo Chamber of Commerce to put pressure on the Government to have the northerb half of the WRC fully opened and operational by 2011.

Maybe they don't have it in the bag after all then..

Transport21 Fan

NJ, you are way wrong about popular support for WoT in the community. I live in the heart of WoT land and nobody here is really interested and most certainly is not behind then crusade.

A few years back they had a day of protest for the corridor and they (mini)bused their kids from town to town between Galway, Sligo and said things to them like "all stand close together so it looks to RTE like there is more of you" and the kids were all given placards which read LUAS FOR DUBLIN - NOTHING FOR THE WEST. The speeches were all the same..."Dublin is awash in trains, DARTs and Metros and the West has nothing". Before they got into their BMW, Mercs and Volvos to drive to the next town.

In some towns a bouncy castle was put beside the podium to get families over, but they had no interest in the WRC, just the bouncy castle.

Then Fr Micheal MacGreil got up on the podium and started going on about "this is just stage one, after this we build a spur to the Marian Shrine at Knock and another spur to Knock airport as the West needs jobs!" You get the older generation (this is common all over Ireland, not just the West) subconciously assuming that it is a sin to disagree with a preist clapping after his every word and they really not actually thinking about what he was saying. He was a preist - so he must be telling us what we need to hear. QED.

Talking to the old lads and locals every opinion ranged from "it's would be handy I guess..." to "It'll never work, it was dead when it was opened". The most positive comment was the same - "it's a nice idea".

I have yet to meet one person in the West who is seriously up for the Western Rail Corridor being opened who is not a trainspotter. The rest all think it's "a nice idea" or the "west needs it" but none of them would have any intention of using it.

I have no doubt that the people in West on Track and most of their supporters (excluding the salivating trainspotters naturally) are sincere, decent, well intention folks who are caught up in something that I beleive they do not fully understand how it will impact upon how rail transport in Ireland develops from this point on.

Did WoT run a clever campaign? Absolutely.

Was it 100% honest and truthful about their public support and business case? Not at all. WestonTrack are tiny operation which makes their profile all the more impressive.

The Western Rail Corridor has no popular supprt in the West of Ireland. It has political support mainly because that's what politicnas do, and it has media support because a sizeable number of the media in the West of Ireland are financially controlled to some degree by the catholic church and any crusade led by a priest goes straight to the front pages and this is what they pay the editiors of regional papers and radio stations to do for them.

WestonTrack were never going to fail in getting massive political and media attention because they had decades of West of Ireland organisations and groups behind them. The same people who made the moving statutues of Ballyspittle a major national news story, did the same for the Western Rail Corridor.

They could of easily just have been demanding a gas pipeline or a cycle track and it would have also been a major national news story. It was just another element of the game that they have been playing from day one and they have vast media and political resources who are at eternal standby in the West of Ireland ready to put the next Rossport5 at the top of the media coverage. WestonTrack was just another local crusade to be pushed - the Western Rail Corridor and to a greater extent public transport development in the West of Ireland was just a meaningless detail.

This is why WoT are in my opinion a disaster for future public transport development in the West because they have turned public attention away from the real requirements for the next 25 years at least by indulging in this pointless crusade to finance a couple of half empty railcars trundling between Sligo and Limerick while there is no decent regional bus services in Connacht or commuter rail around Limerick city and most importantly getting planning sorted in places such as East Galway and Mayo which whould would have made a real difference to public transport viability.

I sincerely beleive that WestonTrack may have fatally damaged public transport development in the West of Ireland. It'll be a couple of empty railcars a day over Swinford Viaduct and car culture and one-off houses for everybody else here. Not good unless you want to upload photos to IRN.

[queue: some unfortunate in Dublin or London to tell me the real story...:rolleyes: ]

NavanJunction1

Transport21 Fan wrote:

NJ, you are way wrong about popular support for WoT in the community. I live in the heart of WoT land and nobody here is really interested and most certainly is not behind then crusade.

I agree with everything you've said.

But it depends what is meant by popular support. I'd say there is a feel good factor to the line being reopened. Progress, onwards & upwards etc. Will people die for the cause? No. Will they attend meetings? Some.

But issues like this worry politicians because they find it hard to gauge the effect they'll have on their support.

I'm telling you - there are people that will agree with it just because it is FREE - if there were levies it would be a different story.

And that counts as popular support.. Put it like this - are there any dissenting voices locally?

I just wish we had National Rail Authority to take these decisions out of the hands of politicians.