Western Rail Corridor

Transport21 Fan

Put it like this - are there any dissenting voices locally?

Surprisingly yes, including polite scepticism from polticians. But the media in the West hardly covered it. One councillor from Curry stated in the Sligo Weekender that the whole project was completely unrealistic and the people supporting it need to get real about the costs and if its money well spent.

There were also a few letters in locals papers openly challenging the point of it. [queue: some looper claiming it was me under a false name...] One person involved in supporting WoT off the record told me "well it's a bit of a white elephant, but it would be handy for the West and the money is there for it anyways so why not?"

I have come across this sentiment a good few times. A lot of people realise that the Northern Half of the WRC is ion the whole pie in the sky, but they are 'doing it for the team' which is fair enough. I have yet to talk about the WRC with people out here and be treated like a biligerent arsehole or a West-hater. The response is always the same "well if you put it like that, then I see your point..." and this is followed by..."but this is just the way things are." The WRC is not a major issue for people in the West - it's just a part of the current political and media scene.

Is that anyway to develop public transport in Ireland?

NavanJunction1

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The WRC is not a major issue for people in the West - it's just a part of the current political and media scene. Is that anyway to develop public transport in Ireland?

One of the local politicians here told me that he needed the railway as an issue. I just blinked. Not needed a railway. Just the issue.

I remember hearing recently on radio that Liam Lawlor once said "Where would we be without Sellafield". Or something to that effect. His point was it's a great issue to have on the door, but he didn't actually want it.

Similar scenario to the WRC in Sligo you think?

nollaig

JUst a quick question, When you get Westport - Dublin train (not that many contributing to this thread would know much about that:D ), the announcer (thats right an announcer on IE) always says that passengers for the Galway line, please change here when we get to Athlone. So surely, that would indicate that there are people (must be feckin crazy) that get the train to Galway by changing in Athlone. So there must be some demand, surely?

paulm17781

nollaig wrote:

So surely, that would indicate that there are people (must be feckin crazy) that get the train to Galway by changing in Athlone. So there must be some demand, surely?

Hang on to those straws.....

Of course there is some demand. There is however not 300M euro worth of demand.

Another example. My best friend lives in Sligo, he used to go out with a girl from Ennis. I thought the WRC would be great for them. Then I realised it would cost money that could be better spent elsewhere.

popebenny16

[queue: some looper claiming it was me under a false name...]

that WAS you under a false name!!!

..."Dublin is awash in trains, DARTs and Metros and the West has nothing".

not today it isnt!!!

Transport21 Fan

popebenny16 wrote:

that WAS you under a false name!!

I swear to god it wasn't me. As much as I wish it was.

Navan Junction

Frank McDonald, Environment Editor, Irish Times, 07/06/2006

The Government proceeded with plans to reinstate much of the Western Rail Corridor (WRC) despite forecasts that it would attract only 750 passengers per day and could require an annual subvention of up to €10 million,The Irish Times has learned.

The Government also discounted an appraisal by the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) in February 2005 which noted that the WRC's catchment is characterised by low population density with no "critical mass". The RPA also said there was "no formal demand modelling" to underpin the project.

The WRC extends 234km from Sligo to Limerick. The only section to be reopened so far (in 2003) is the 40km stretch between Limerick and Ennis, Co Clare, with eight trains a day. Much of the remainder between Ennis and Collooney, Co Sligo, has been closed since 1976.

Documents released by the Department of Transport under the Freedom of Information Act show that Pat McCann, chairman of the working party set up in 2004 to look at the viability of reopening the rest of the line, initially took a sceptical view of its viability.

In his draft report, dated March 2005, he said: "I have not heard any economic, commercial or social arguments that would justify the complete restoration of the line as one project and I would not support such a proposal." This was omitted from the final report.

Mr McCann, who stepped down last week as chief executive of Jurys Doyle Hotels, said his recommendation for reopening the line was "contingent on the restoration of the WRC being undertaken on a phased basis", with only one section being done at a time.

"It would be prudent to postpone consideration of a second section for restoration until the first section proves to be successful and similarly for the third and fourth sections," his draft report said. This was also omitted from the final version, dated May 2005.

The total cost of reopening the WRC was put at €365.7 million and broken down as follows:

Ennis to Athenry (58km): €74.7 million (€1.3m per km);
Athenry to Tuam (25km): €34.7 million (€1.4m per km);
Tuam to Claremorris (27km): €58.9 million (€2.2m per km);
Claremorris to Collooney (74km): €197.4 million (€2.6m per km).
The latter section was built originally in 1891-2 as a light railway, with no less than 290 level crossings along its route.

Mr McCann said: "It is clear that this section would be extremely expensive to restore. It accounts for 54 per cent of the restoration costs of the entire line.

"Expenditure of this order would be very difficult to justify and I have to say that the case for its restoration, as things stand, is weak," his report said bluntly. He was also "not convinced" that Knock shrine and Knock airport would have a major positive impact on its viability.

Mr McCann was more upbeat about reopening the line between Ennis and Athenry. "This section would appear to be one of the more viable as things stand and I am recommending that a full feasibility study be undertaken on the section with a view to reopening it," he said.

"I am also recommending that, following the successful introduction of commuter services on the [ existing] Athenry-Galway section, the prospects for extending Galway rail commuter services to Tuam should then be examined," according to both versions of his report.

The earlier draft said the feasibility of extending the line to Claremorris should be considered "in the medium to longer term" if the section to Tuam is restored, while the final version noted that this would link the WRC with the Mayo "hubs" of Castlebar, Westport and Ballina.

The draft report also mentioned that rail freight might make a "marginal" difference to the viability of the Tuam-Claremorris section of line and recommended a "thoroughgoing study" to quantify the potential for rail freight in the region "before a decision is made".

In the final version of his report presented to Minister for Transport Martin Cullen in May 2005, Mr McCann added a paragraph to the conclusion suggesting that connections to Knock and Shannon airports "could add significantly to the economics of the line".

Asked by The Irish Times if these amendments were made at the behest of the Department of Transport, Mr McCann said: "That's not the case at all. The final version was done in conjunction with the working group itself, and the department had no hand in it." He acknowledged that he "couldn't see anything in it" when he was first appointed as chairman of the working party and only came round to the view that the WRC could be reinstated in phases after a lot of discussions with the West on Track group and others.

Asked if he was happy that the Transport 21 package included a phased reinstatement of the WRC from Athenry to Claremorris, with the remainder of the line to be "protected", Mr McCann said: "That was their decision. I felt it would happen at some point."

© The Irish Times

D'Peoples Voice

Navan Junction wrote:

Frank McDonald, Environment Editor, Irish Times, 07/06/2006

The Government also discounted an appraisal by the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) in February 2005 which noted that the WRC's catchment is characterised by low population density with no "critical mass". The RPA also said there was "no formal demand modelling" to underpin the project.


Asked by The Irish Times if these amendments were made at the behest of the Department of Transport, Mr McCann said: "That's not the case at all. The final version was done in conjunction with the working group itself, and the department had no hand in it." He acknowledged that he "couldn't see anything in it" when he was first appointed as chairman of the working party and only came round to the view that the WRC could be reinstated in phases after a lot of discussions with the West on Track group and others .
© The Irish Times

Whats the bet that those others were people in favour of opening it at any cost. As I said before, if it's so viable, lets see the local people/businesses stump up the cash.

Transport21 Fan

You plant a seed...you watch it grow

Sorry, I know I was doing you lot a favour by staying off, but when I saw this article this morning...well, it's nice to be right now and again.

I was watching the Hall Pictorial Weekly DVD last week and Frank Hall really was a Nostradamus when it comes to all this stuff.

I suspect this is the final nail in the coffin of that bizzare plan to connect Sligo to Limerick via a series of old banger lines with little or no potential. Even I suspected more than 750 passengers a day - fair play Pat McCann, a pragmatic, honest man and the West of Ireland would be better served by more people like him calling a spade and spade.

The truth always comes out, as I knew it would. Now hopefully this will lead to viable and needed rail projects going ahead instead of this moronic parish pumpism and British locosexual fantasy being passed off as public transport investment.

BTW: the weeds are all back on the WRC since the last tidy-up.

aliveandkicking

Had a feeling that article might make you come out of your shell Stick around.

What a great thing the freedom of information act is. Frank McDonald has used it well to get the truth about the WRC into the public domain. Anyone who knows anything about public transport in Ireland knows that the WRC would be a huge white elephant.

road_high

I'm not surprised- the people just don't live there north of Claremorris to make a full reopening viable- this is reality.Stretches of Claremorris-Limerick would be viable as they would link Limerick and Galway cities.

I won't be popular for saying this but the investment is badly needed on railway lines in the east and south like the Dublin-Rosslare/Cork/Limerick Waterford/Kildare etc. The money should be spent where demand is greatest, seems like logic to me.

Many of the above are still single track for much of the journey- an upgrade to double track would greatly increase capacity as well as quicker journey times.

nollaig

Mr McCann was more upbeat about reopening the line between Ennis and Athenry. "This section would appear to be one of the more viable as things stand and I am recommending that a full feasibility study be undertaken on the section with a view to reopening it," he said.

Surely a full feasibility study should be carried out on the whole lot and then we'll know exactly what the story is with re-opening it????

road_high

nollaig wrote:

Surely a full feasibility study should be carried out on the whole lot and then we'll know exactly what the story is with re-opening it????

Has this not already be done??They waste more money on bloody consultants reports in this country instead of actually building the infrastructure.I don't think it takes a genius to work out that Claremorris-Sligo wouldn't be viable.
And I thought the Ennis-Claremorris (the viable part)had been decided on and was going ahead?

Navan Junction

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Sorry, I know I was doing you lot a favour by staying off, but when I saw this article this morning...well, it's nice to be right now and again.

All very interesting. Can't help but compare this to 2 trains in the morning on Navan Drogheda. It would guzzle 3,000 commuters, and you'd get another 1000 on the roof.

750 a day is terrible. And Navan Drogheda is only half the distance of ennis Athenry

Transport21 Fan

This follows a recent stab at the Western Rail Corridor by IBEC who quiet rightly pointed out that the Limerick-Rosslare line is the case model for the WRC and it carries almost no possengers.

The recent WRC to Sligo campaign has fallen flat on its face and there was a very poor attendance at a recent meeting and the general feeling in the air was defeatist.

Limerick to Rosslare will be next to go. Mark my words. The knives have been out for that joke for a while now and the clock is ticking again if what a little wee birdy told me is real. Limerick Junction is to be rebuilt with one less line running into it. No prizes for guessing which one...

road_high

Transport21 Fan wrote:

This follows a recent stab at the Western Rail Corridor by IBEC who quiet rightly pointed out that the Limerick-Rosslare line is the case model for the WRC and it carries almost no possengers.

The recent WRC to Sligo campaign has fallen flat on its face and there was a very poor attendance at a recent meeting and the general feeling in the air was defeatist.

Limerick to Rosslare will be next to go. Mark my words. The knives have been out for that joke for a while now and the clock is ticking again if what a little wee birdy told me is real. Limerick Junction is to be rebuilt with one less line running into it. No prizes for guessing which one...

The WRC is much worse than Limerick-Waterford-Rosslare!!
This line at least serves a few big towns and cities like Waterford-Clonmel-Limerick and afew in between; if this line can't compete how the hell is a line running through bogs in the west going to???
There is one train to/from South Wexford into Waterford every morning and evening as a commuter services that is all, and 2 or 3 a day to/from Limerick Junction.

Transport21 Fan

Navan Junction wrote:

750 a day is terrible. And Navan Drogheda is only half the distance of ennis Athenry

and of that 750 mosty of them would be pensioners on free travel passes just like the current bus service on the same route.

The first thing I thought when I read this article this morning was that Meath on Track would be the biggest winner by default.

You lot have the ball now and run with it and can destroy the "credibility" of Cullen and the DoT as public transport planners. There is also scope for fast tracking Midleton and a chance of a renewned profile for the Phoenix Park Tunnel route.

Frank McDonald may well have given the Navan Rail campaign it's greatest asset with this article. Go for it and hold back nothing.

markf909

Go for it and hold back nothing.

Exactly, you now have to use the victim culture that worked so well for WOT.
Thousands commuting every day from all over Meath with no rail line yet the govt will spend over 300m on capital costs and 10m a year on current costs to move 750 a day over the bog, ie over €30 per person per journey :eek:

galwaytt

Transport21 Fan wrote:

This follows a recent stab at the Western Rail Corridor by IBEC who quiet rightly pointed out that the Limerick-Rosslare line is the case model for the WRC and it carries almost no possengers.

IBEC?? - are you for real? Please tell what contribution to society - other than for it's own myopic member's pockets - that shower has ever made? i wouldn't believe a word out of their mouths, one way or the other.......

The recent WRC to Sligo campaign has fallen flat on its face and there was a very poor attendance at a recent meeting and the general feeling in the air was defeatist.

There is no correlation between defeatist and need. All that tells you is that they've been brow-beaten so many times that there will be no investment that they've started believeing it. Look at the success of the Ennis-Limerick line as an example of 'build it and they will come'........with apologies to Kevin Costner.......!!

Limerick to Rosslare will be next to go. Mark my words. The knives have been out for that joke for a while now and the clock is ticking again if what a little wee birdy told me is real. Limerick Junction is to be rebuilt with one less line running into it. No prizes for guessing which one...

...like the ass that put new continuously welded rails on the route into Galway a few years ago. With a permanent bed wide enough for two lines, what did they do?? - why, put ONE line down the middle of course.....!! so now, even if you wanted to, you'd have to TAKE UP the new line first.........


....all of which is another way of saying.......'sfunny how the detractors here are based in the East. Amazing coincidence......and to think of all my (West) based tax money flowing into the coffers of NTR for the farce that is, the M50...........some neck, really.........and 'ye' want to give them even more??? There should be a complete and utter embargo on any more projects East of Athlone for the next 10 years, such is the mess and incompetence prevalent in the transport 'planning' ........

road_high

galwaytt wrote:

IBEC?? - are you for real? Please tell what contribution to society - other than for it's own myopic member's pockets - that shower has ever made? i wouldn't believe a word out of their mouths, one way or the other.......

There is no correlation between defeatist and need. All that tells you is that they've been brow-beaten so many times that there will be no investment that they've started believeing it. Look at the success of the Ennis-Limerick line as an example of 'build it and they will come'........with apologies to Kevin Costner.......!!



...like the ass that put new continuously welded rails on the route into Galway a few years ago. With a permanent bed wide enough for two lines, what did they do?? - why, put ONE line down the middle of course.....!! so now, even if you wanted to, you'd have to TAKE UP the new line first.........


....all of which is another way of saying.......'sfunny how the detractors here are based in the East. Amazing coincidence......and to think of all my (West) based tax money flowing into the coffers of NTR for the farce that is, the M50...........some neck, really.........and 'ye' want to give them even more??? There should be a complete and utter embargo on any more projects East of Athlone for the next 10 years, such is the mess and incompetence prevalent in the transport 'planning' ........

I think you'll find all the counties in Leinster and Munster are net-contributors to the exchequer- why should we have to subsidise half-baked projects like the WRC when infrastructure in the east is literally creaking at the seems!?
Are you mad or something- an embargo on all projects in the east- so rapidly growing towns and cities like Gorey, Carlow, Waterford, all towns on the N3,N9/8/7/6 should all have their (already 10-15 years overdue) road and rail improvements now put on ice and all the money spent in the west where far less people live and contribute taxes- nice idea for a democracy that one...

Occidental

galwaytt wrote:

There should be a complete and utter embargo on any more projects East of Athlone for the next 10 years, such is the mess and incompetence prevalent in the transport 'planning' ........

Yeah, because people in Galway really fancy another 10 years sightseeing in Moate.

Transport21 Fan

sfunny how the detractors here are based in the East.

Really, I didn't know Sligo was in the East. I can fart from the roof of my house and the cows grazing on the fresh WRC grass can smell it and I can tell you for a fact nobody around here would use it beyond the odd trip now and again. Pat McCann told the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Deal with it

as for the IBEC quote this is the truth no matter who it came from. The average passenger loadings on that Waterford to Limerick line has been 100-300 PER WEEK since the reopening of the Cahir Viaduct. This makes it even less viable than the projection for the WRC. It is a total failure by every economic and social yardstick and other than Limerick-Lim Juction and a possible limited student service out of Clonmel at the weekends is a pointless indulgence of taxpayer's money and a symbol of everything that is dysfunctional about public transport provision in this country.

Regardless of what you think of IBEC (and I am not taken by them much myself either) the truth is the truth - although it fairly obvious that the WRC fanatics can't seem to handle reality that well.IBEC told the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. Deal with it

There are 3 types of people who support the WRC:

1. The Well Meaning, but Clueless
2. Locosexuals looking for more intersting railway holidays in the West of Ireland and trying to con Irish taxpayers to pay for it
3. Headcases

That's it. I'll put you into category 1) as I am nice man and willing to give you the benefit out the doubt.

MeathonTrack step up and take centre stage.

Can we all chip in and buy Frank McDonald a present or something? The man is a national treasure.

dowlingm

the biggest problems with Limerick-Waterford-Rosslare is frequency and speed. The bus blows it out of the water because of speed restrictions and poor connectivity with Dublin/Cork bound services out of LJ and Waterford, and because it only goes a few times a day. Also, bustitution due to frequent line closures only drives people onto the buses because they feel they will end up there anyway, and also that apparently scobes in Carrick on Suir are stoning trains.

There are two options - kill it or massively invest in it to make it crazy to not consider taking the train. The current "half-assed service" just doesn't attract people because they fear if they miss a connection the next one won't be for hours if at all.

To make Galway-Limerick-Waterford-Rosslare really work you need to clearly separate and brand commuter services from intercity, so Galway-Athenry, Ennis-Limerick-LJ and Clonmel-Waterford-Rosslare would be served by fast single or double car DMUs on a 30 minute basis at peak times.

These sections should be maintained to best feasible spec. rail and signalling, say 75mph or better if possible, all level crossings eliminated or automated and Carrigtwohill style dynamic loops put in place to ensure schedules are met without having to double track the entire way.

Athenry-Ennis and LJ-Clonmel would be maintained to safe but lower spec.

You then run a couple of Intercity services a day but only serving the major points and those major towns NOT served by the aforementioned commuter services (Galway-Athenry-Ennis-Gort-Limerick-LJ-Cahir-Clonmel-Waterford-Rosslare) - not necessarily all the way on every service especially if Platform 11's Waterford-Rosslare-Dublin proposal got going. Ennis-Athenry services should be timed to meet Dublin bound as well as Galway bound services which would boost Ennis-Dublin connection options.

It should go without saying but I'll say it anyway - this should be contingent on the various county councils committing to development plans which fund not only refurbishment of the line but local connecting bus services to enhance the catchment.

Transport21 Fan

galwaytt wrote:

There should be a complete and utter embargo on any more projects East of Athlone for the next 10 years, such is the mess and incompetence prevalent in the transport 'planning' ........

Yes of course. The East needs to get its act and put an event like this together:

Public meeting on transport

A public meeting to discuss the need for an Integrated Transport System for Galway and its regions, will take place in the Great Southern Hotel in Eyre Square next Thursday, 15 June, at 8pm.Speakers confirmed for the night include Michael D Higgins, Brian Guckian, the rail and integrated transport researcher and West on Track.

If you are putting a transport seminar together for the West, then only the experts with the most realistic plans, eh...

dermo88

Galway to Ennis and Limerick is a viable proposition. The Limerick to Rosslare line needs to be split into two or three regional/intercity services to survive and thrive.

There is one major project that will be needed for the West of Ireland in terms of rail. Its been overdue since some idiot in Kingsbridge decided to lift the second track in 1927. The Galway line needs to have double track reinstated throughout.

As for Michael D Higgins and Brian Guckian having realistic plans for transport in the west, well I've only one line to keep you guys quiet.

"Its not Hong Kong, so be realistic".

murphaph

Is guckian in charge of the slides at this meeting? :cool:

ishmael whale

Does it ever stop?

galwaytt wrote:

and to think of all my (West) based tax money flowing into the coffers of NTR for the farce that is, the M50...........some neck, really.........and 'ye' want to give them even more???

Where do people in the West get this idea that they’re making some contribution to national finances?

I know you’ve seen it all before, but here it is again. Table 6 on page 13. Households in the Western Region pay €1,093 million in tax and get €1,318 million in social transfers, meaning they’re over two hundred million better off before we even think about cutting the weeds off the WRC. Dublin and the East have a very different experience, as I’ve set out here.

The West gets favourable treatment and seems to think they have a right to cause havoc with the lives of people in the East as if they are of no account. They think nothing of coming out with loose statements like

galwaytt wrote:

There should be a complete and utter embargo on any more projects East of Athlone for the next 10 years

Petty parochial sentiments like these are among the main reasons that the political system has consistently deprived Dublin of the infrastructure it needs, culminating in our problems today.

Airmail

The Government also discounted an appraisal by the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) in February 2005 which noted that the WRC's catchment is characterised by low population density with no "critical mass". The RPA also said there was "no formal demand modelling" to underpin the project.

Anybody know how involved the RPA are in new railway lines outside of Dublin?

As regards the Limerick-Rosslare line it would be a start to run Limerick(city)-Waterford trains? ( Did the strategic rail review not recomend the line as a project worth pursueing.)

Avns1s

Maybe the fact that rail transport is environmentally friendly in a time of rising oil prices and congestion on the Eastern side of the country following years of infrastructural investment which had the net effect of attracting people from the rural areas that "now don't have the population to justify the investment" might be justification for some of the opinions expressed by the narrowminded people who have alrady expressed their ill educated and selfish views on this topic.
If not perhaps the underspend by the government under the National Development Plan which expires this year of €3,500,000,000 (I was afraid to write £3.5bn in case it wouldn't be understood!!!) in the Border, Midlands and West Region certainly closes the case. This is the "BALANCED REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT" the goverment is committed to.

If the authors of these ill informed views are not from the East Coast, then they are from urban centres and have lost touch with their rural backgrounds. Get off your hobby horses and take a longer term strategic approach!

One final question,...... What is the viability of Dublin Bus, LUAS or Dart. Yes, it is the subvention of all the taxpayers of the country who have put them there and keep them running, most of these taxpayers having neither use nor access to them. And you have the cheek to question the viability of the WRC without the wisdom of knowing that all public transport is subvented.

The WRC is a project which deserves support in a region which needs investment to reverse the population trends of the past leading to the imbalance of today. Live with it!!!

dermo88

Rail transport is environmentally friendly where there are enough people around to sustain its usage. This is definitely not the case with the Athenry to Collooney branch line. Certainly, I will support rebuilding Ennis to Athenry in terms of it providing a viable link between Cork, Limerick and Galway, where a bihourly DMU service is viable, and indeed, desirable. This to me would be relevant in terms of balanced regional development for Connaught.

Congestion still exists on the Eastern side of the country, because up until today, Irish rail were playing "catchup". The infrastructure had to be put into a fit condition. Remember, it was not that long ago that the commuter line to Maynooth was Single track beyond Clonsilla, and there were congestion problems there. In fact, on virtually every commuter rail line in the East, demand exceeds supply by a considerable margin. Stop inventing demand where none exists. We know its nonsense, and then when we call a spade a spade, you then dare pull off the whinging moaning regional deprived argument that has characterised West of Ireland regional development from the days of the famine.

I mean you've inflicted clowns like Padraig Flynn on us. White elephants such as Knock International, which will be looked at in wonder by archaeologists as they think "Where is the big city around here", pipedreams such as the City of the Sacred Heart. What are the roads and railways doing for regional development in Mayo......oh yes, they are bringing people to and from the CAPITAL, where they work to pay taxes. Where they study to get out of rural deprivation.

I don't want to get stuck into the "East vs West" argument. But lets put it in context. On the Athenry to Collooney branch, there will be, at the very best, a 2 car DMU set doing an average speed, point to point of 60kmh. It won't compete with cars. It won't compete with Bus Eireann. It will do less than nothing to take a single car off the roads. Its fare levels will be higher than Bus Eireann, so it won't even be a viable proposition to taking its target market there either, apart from Free Travel and Social Welfare passes, and even in Mayo there are'nt enough of them floating around on any given day for Granny Donnelly to be stuck with standing room only when she boards the 09.45 from Tuam.

The viability of Dublin Bus, Luas and DART is unquestionable, because they are packed to capacity, and have customers using them. Can we really say the same for the Ballina branch shuttle with its locomotive, generator van and two coaches, capacity 128, never full, running THREE times a day in each direction.

The longer term strategic approach is to get the lifting train out and rip the rails up north of Athenry, so we won't hear any of your rubbish ever again.

The WRC is a fancy name to make a branch line sound good. I don't even dignify it with the name Corridor. Its an insult to anything that works ineffectively. So listen.....LIVE WITH IT, or do you really want to go to your local bookshop and have a look at the Inter Cert geography book. Kids of 15 know better than you.