Western Rail Corridor

murphaph

Avns1s wrote:

Maybe the fact that rail transport is environmentally friendly in a time of rising oil prices and congestion on the Eastern side of the country following years of infrastructural investment which had the net effect of attracting people from the rural areas that "now don't have the population to justify the investment" might be justification for some of the opinions expressed by the narrowminded people who have alrady expressed their ill educated and selfish views on this topic.
If not perhaps the underspend by the government under the National Development Plan which expires this year of €3,500,000,000 (I was afraid to write £3.5bn in case it wouldn't be understood!!!) in the Border, Midlands and West Region certainly closes the case. This is the "BALANCED REGIONAL DEVELOPMENT" the goverment is committed to.

If the authors of these ill informed views are not from the East Coast, then they are from urban centres and have lost touch with their rural backgrounds. Get off your hobby horses and take a longer term strategic approach!

One final question,...... What is the viability of Dublin Bus, LUAS or Dart. Yes, it is the subvention of all the taxpayers of the country who have put them there and keep them running, most of these taxpayers having neither use nor access to them. And you have the cheek to question the viability of the WRC without the wisdom of knowing that all public transport is subvented.

The WRC is a project which deserves support in a region which needs investment to reverse the population trends of the past leading to the imbalance of today. Live with it!!!

Buddy, did you bother reading the CSO data kindly linked to by Ishmael (for the millionth time, God bless his cotton socks) or what?

Just to summarise for you;

If all the taxpayers (and everyone else) in the west of Ireland vanished overnight, the NATIONAL economy would actually be better off. I'm not advocating any such thing but CURRENTLY the west already receives way more money from government (the east and Cork) than it generates in tax revenue, so lose the poor mouth complex.

The taxpayers of the west DO NOT SUBSIDISE Luas etc. We in Dublin subsidise it and then we subsidise your a$$ afterwards. That's what actually happens in the real world. Sorry to put it so bluntly but you appear unable to understand the CSO data provided to you in a previous post. In short, if nobody lived in the west then we in the east could keep more of our taxes here and build more stuff that we need. You do not build any of it with your taxes raised in the west because there is a flow of tax money from the east to every county in Connaught!!

Avns1s

dermo88 wrote:

Rail transport is environmentally friendly where there are enough people around to sustain its usage. This is definitely not the case with the Athenry to Collooney branch line. Certainly, I will support rebuilding Ennis to Athenry in terms of it providing a viable link between Cork, Limerick and Galway, where a bihourly DMU service is viable, and indeed, desirable. This to me would be relevant in terms of balanced regional development for Connaught.

Congestion still exists on the Eastern side of the country, because up until today, Irish rail were playing "catchup". The infrastructure had to be put into a fit condition. Remember, it was not that long ago that the commuter line to Maynooth was Single track beyond Clonsilla, and there were congestion problems there. In fact, on virtually every commuter rail line in the East, demand exceeds supply by a considerable margin. Stop inventing demand where none exists. We know its nonsense, and then when we call a spade a spade, you then dare pull off the whinging moaning regional deprived argument that has characterised West of Ireland regional development from the days of the famine.

I mean you've inflicted clowns like Padraig Flynn on us. White elephants such as Knock International, which will be looked at in wonder by archaeologists as they think "Where is the big city around here", pipedreams such as the City of the Sacred Heart. What are the roads and railways doing for regional development in Mayo......oh yes, they are bringing people to and from the CAPITAL, where they work to pay taxes. Where they study to get out of rural deprivation.

I don't want to get stuck into the "East vs West" argument. But lets put it in context. On the Athenry to Collooney branch, there will be, at the very best, a 2 car DMU set doing an average speed, point to point of 60kmh. It won't compete with cars. It won't compete with Bus Eireann. It will do less than nothing to take a single car off the roads. Its fare levels will be higher than Bus Eireann, so it won't even be a viable proposition to taking its target market there either, apart from Free Travel and Social Welfare passes, and even in Mayo there are'nt enough of them floating around on any given day for Granny Donnelly to be stuck with standing room only when she boards the 09.45 from Tuam.

The viability of Dublin Bus, Luas and DART is unquestionable, because they are packed to capacity, and have customers using them. Can we really say the same for the Ballina branch shuttle with its locomotive, generator van and two coaches, capacity 128, never full, running THREE times a day in each direction.

The longer term strategic approach is to get the lifting train out and rip the rails up north of Athenry, so we won't hear any of your rubbish ever again.

The WRC is a fancy name to make a branch line sound good. I don't even dignify it with the name Corridor. Its an insult to anything that works ineffectively. So listen.....LIVE WITH IT, or do you really want to go to your local bookshop and have a look at the Inter Cert geography book. Kids of 15 know better than you.

Is this the best diatribe you can come out with. "Inter Cert Geography".......!!! I won't lower the tone of the discussion to the personal insults.

Reality is this is and "East versus West" debate and beyond the WRC, if the Governments of the past had invested in the infrastructure of the Regions, then perhaps it wouln't be so hard for IR to catch up in the East!!!.

Anyway, yourself and your ilk can let off steam all you wish. Reality is that a committment to the reopening of the WRC has been made, albeit long term for part, and it would be a brave government that would do a u turn on the project. So I guess it might be you who will have to "live with it".

I would also respectfully suggest that you check your facts about Knock Airport or more correctly Ireland West Airport Knock. You can let us all know that you have been corrected!

As for murphaph's comment, I am as well able to read and understand the CSO figures as anyone else in this forum (possibly even better than some!) but the one thing about statistics is that you can conveniently shove out whichever ones suit your case as you have done. I note that you didn't comment on my proferred statistics.

Get this notion of viability out of your heads. Major infrastructural projects are never assessed on viability. The are Government investments based on assessments of a wide number of different parameters, never viability. For gods sake, if all of these projects were viable don't you think that the billionaire investors would be making further billions out of them.

aliveandkicking

Avns1s wrote:

The WRC is a project which deserves support in a region which needs investment to reverse the population trends of the past leading to the imbalance of today. Live with it!!!

By all means invest money in the west that will attempt to redress the population imbalance and encourage proper development in the west but the WRC will not do this. This is not about the east depriving the west of investment, I want some of my taxes to go towards developing the west but for god sake spend the money on something that really will help the region not the crackpot WRC.

dermo88

I'm not insulting you. If you think a bit of advice to read an Inter Cert Geography book is beyond you, then you are obviously not qualified to consider spending hundreds of millions of Euro of taxpayers money on it. Now, my style of criticism is abrasive. I know that. But I'm not changing it, and I hope its as offensive and insulting to the likes of you and nollaig as possible.

If you really want it so much, you can built a 1/144 scale model of it. N Scale, from Bachmann or Graham Farish, and build it in your attic conversion.

The Athenry to Collooney branch line looks nice on a railway map because it links one tentacle (the Sligo line), to three other tentacles. But this is incredibly misleading.

I regard Knock International as a White Elephant, since it would have been far better from the view of balanced regional development to build it in Sligo. Instead the ravings of a miracle struck priest lead him to believe there would be millions of pilgrims landing at Knock International to pray.

People will travel where they want to travel, and they will live where there are jobs, and where they want to live, where they can afford to live. Obviously people would like to live in Mayo, but there are not enough economic prospects there. If you think it is any different, then try somewhere where the planning system might suit you. Its called North Korea.

You state that "The Government has made a commitment, albeit, long term in part". The people of Tallaght and Ballymun will tell you that a commitment to rail projects to link them to the rail network was made many times over the course of 30 years, and they came to nothing. So the commitment is meaningless. They will only be made and repeated every general election, and quickly forgotten.

The only use and benefits ever shown of investing in the regions prior to the era of the Celtic Tiger was that it got the emigrants to Carlisle Pier 15 minutes faster. Maybe I should be a bit less harsh on you and recommend Leaving Cert Geography. A look at some Irish Economic History perhaps.

I suspect there might be a problem with flights above Knock International today, since we seem to have a Mayo based passenger on these bulletin boards with his head on the clouds.

A very telling final sentence from you:

"Get this notion of viability out of your heads. Major infrastructural projects are never assessed on viability"

Need I say more?

"Come in reality"......"Calling Reality"....."come in please".....

murphaph

aliveandkicking wrote:

By all means invest money in the west that will attempt to redress the population imbalance and encourage proper development in the west but the WRC will not do this. This is not about the east depriving the west of investment, I want some of my taxes to go towards developing the west but for god sake spend the money on something that really will help the region not the crackpot WRC.

Why would you want one penny spent in Sligo where the locals have been merrily tarmac'ing over the WRC alignment to build driveways into one-off bungalows sanctioned by the local council? Let 'em get their planning (do they know what that is?) in order before splashing my taxes around I say.

Anyway, I really don't get this need to 'balance development'. Why? Other places all over the world have succumbed to those awful things called cities and the countryside has steadily been depopulated and the cities have grown. Look at Scotland. The vast bulk of the 5 million inhabitants live happily in the central belt and the highlands and islands are uber low population density and nobody moans about 'Glasgow and Edinburgh' heaving under the strain or such b0ll0cks. And it is all b0ll0cks quite frankly.

It's not just Scotland, pick any large city in Europe and you'll find the surrounding rural regions have often got very low population densities. That's how it's supposed to be.

aliveandkicking

galwaytt wrote:

There should be a complete and utter embargo on any more projects East of Athlone for the next 10 years

Yes of course there should, afterall the people of the west get such a raw deal don't they.......

From lookwest.ie

It's often said that time is our most precious possession. So why waste it staring at the bumper of the car in front?

75% of people in the West spend 30 minutes or less getting to work
Only 1 in 20 spend more than an hour
Average commute time is about 20 minutes
1 in 7 people in the Dublin area have to travel for over an hour to get to work each day

Parents in the West have always known the importance of education for their children.

A higher share of young people go to college than anywhere else in the country
56% of all 17-18 year olds in Galway and 55% in Mayo and Sligo go to college — compared with 44% nationally
Children also start out on the right foot as primary schools in the West generally have smaller class sizes.

Average pupil-teacher ratios in primary schools are considerably lower than in Dublin and surrounding counties e.g. an average of about 17 pupils per teacher in Mayo compared with 22 pupils in Kildare.

And when the children get a bit older, secondary schools in the West have an excellent record in terms of results and college entry.

Thinking of setting up home in the West?

If you want to rent, get your toe on the property ladder or trade-up — you can get more space — inside and out — in the West.

Did you know?

The average price of a new house in the West in 2005 was €232,000
This was just 63% of the price of the same house in Dublin which cost €368,000
Rental is also cheaper as a new 2-bed apartment will cost you €668 per month in Connaught — just 60% of what you'd pay in Dublin

Ah jaysus the poor oul deprived people of the west, isn't it terrible altogether, their standard of living is so much poorer than us lucky jackeens after robbing all their investment :rolleyes:

Avns1s

Isn't it amazing that Jackeens, who can't rise above derogratory and insulting remarks, are pretty much the only one's who express a strong opinion on this matter and they have (in their opinion, of course) the answers to infrastructural development, regional development, rural planning, and can even run the facilities in a region they probably have never even visited!

That's whats wrong with this country, too many "educated" people ( some even to inter cert standard) making decisions which affect the lives of others, on issues they know nothing about other than from a textbook and what they think makes sense.

I don't even think those outside the area affected ought to have an anti opinion on this issue. If those in the area feel that it has benefit, then that's all that matters. If you don't like the West region then stay away from it and let those of us who live and work here all year round develop it the way we would like it to be. You're welcome to your own areas, develop them as you wish!

dermo88

These are not insulting and derogatory remarks. These are are anti stupidity, anti waste of time, space, money and lack of logic remarks. I think there is no use talking to you anymore. So I'll agree to disagree with you. We won't see eye to eye, and to be frank, I could'nt care less.

Navan Junction

Transport21 Fan

murphaph wrote:

Anyway, I really don't get this need to 'balance development'.

It also doesn't work either. The British tried it in the 1960's and 70's in order to shift the population balance from the South East to Midlands and North East. The population of London and the Home Counties has massively increased regardless.

The reason for people living were they do, are highly complex and the rationale ranges from economic to cultural to something as simple as having school kids and not wanting to take them away from their freinds and schools.

There is simply no case study in the history of world from the dawn of mankind to the present which suggests that if you build a single track railway line for three trains a day, carrying 750 grannies on free travel passes, that it will result in regional development and a massive population shift from a capital city to one off houses 20 miles from the nearest train station.

andrew163

Avns1s wrote:

That's whats wrong with this country, too many "educated" people ( some even to inter cert standard) making decisions which affect the lives of others, on issues they know nothing about

Repeat that when you've spent at least one month of travelling down the N3 to work, every morning. *points at the pretty pictures above*

The WRC will affect the lives of those people by reducing the pool of available funds which would otherwise potentially help to provide a train service (which I gaurantee you will be stuffed to capacity, and I mean sardine tin-style, not just "stuffed" as in there's no window seats left) to get them out of that traffic jam.

Navan Junction

Transport21 Fan

Isn't it amazing that Jackeens, who can't rise above derogratory and insulting remarks, are pretty much the only one's who express a strong opinion on this matter and they have (in their opinion, of course) the answers to infrastructural development, regional development, rural planning, and can even run the facilities in a region they probably have never even visited!

That's whats wrong with this country, too many "educated" people ( some even to inter cert standard) making decisions which affect the lives of others, on issues they know nothing about other than from a textbook and what they think makes sense.

I don't even think those outside the area affected ought to have an anti opinion on this issue. If those in the area feel that it has benefit, then that's all that matters. If you don't like the West region then stay away from it and let those of us who live and work here all year round develop it the way we would like it to be. You're welcome to your own areas, develop them as you wish!

Brilliant.

murphaph

Avns1s wrote:

Isn't it amazing that Jackeens, who can't rise above derogratory and insulting remarks, are pretty much the only one's who express a strong opinion on this matter and they have (in their opinion, of course) the answers to infrastructural development, regional development, rural planning, and can even run the facilities in a region they probably have never even visited!

That's whats wrong with this country, too many "educated" people ( some even to inter cert standard) making decisions which affect the lives of others, on issues they know nothing about other than from a textbook and what they think makes sense.

I don't even think those outside the area affected ought to have an anti opinion on this issue. If those in the area feel that it has benefit, then that's all that matters. If you don't like the West region then stay away from it and let those of us who live and work here all year round develop it the way we would like it to be. You're welcome to your own areas, develop them as you wish!

Does this gem mean you would accept the following;
All taxation raised in Leinster and Cork to remain in Leinster and Cork to be spent there and there alone. All taxation raised in Connaught to be spent in Connaught alone. Connaught people can decide exactly what gets built in Connaught without any Jackeen interference
Well? I know I'd be happy enough with the above.

SeanW

Get this notion of viability out of your heads. Major infrastructural projects are never assessed on viability.

Certainly about the WRC, it most certainly was not judged on viability but on political grounds. Both Indakenny and Pat Rabbite are Mayo men, and that whole business with P. and Beverly-Cooper Flynn hasn't fully gone away.

Bottom line: FF needs votes it the lovely 6-seater ... eh .. "County" of Mayo. So they'll say or do any old twaddle to get them. Including opening a low-standard railway through nowhere.

I doubt anyone in Mayo CC even knows what "urban planning" is, let alone actually have a planning policy that might be mutually co-operative with the countys' already large and underutilised spiderweb of railway lines, let alone 2 more.

Since a train requires roughly 10-20 people on board to justify the extra fuel used to lug a huge carriage around vis-a-vis private cars, I can even forsee environmentalists seeking the re-abandonement of the "corridor" in favour of a fleet of taxis.

And as for galwaytts "embargo any more infrastructure in the East" well that's already happened, Dublin Bus for example are still waiting for 200 extra buses they were promised in 1999, and traffic has screwed their operations since then while demand spiralls out of control, that and the fact that most of the railways in/into the City Centre are crowded to the point of being wholly unsafe, with fainting being a regular occurance.

Can you see any international example of a government saying "let's make the main cities really horrible, crappy, soul-destroying places to live in so that everyone will want to get a one-off house in the middle of nowhere."

Of course not but the above description applies to Dublin. Congratulations.

Victor

Avns1s wrote:

Isn't it amazing that Jackeens, who can't rise above derogratory and insulting remarks

Welcome to boards.ie. Please note the constrast in the two halves of your sentence. Place your seats and tray tables in the upright, locked position. Your moderator today is from Cork.

popebenny16

SeanW has hit the nail on the head.

There is only a political imperitave on this. Mayo is the motherlode of seats.

Why isnt Meath getting any priority?

Meath: 3 FF 2 FG

Mayo: 1 FF 1 Ind, 2 FG, Bev.

Anyone in the west who thinks that this is going to be built falls into T21's three types of people, I personaly belive it's cat.1. The first phase will be announced, it'sll open, it makes sense to do it, it's a commuter run. The rest will be put off into the never-never.

Also, heres a reality check:

What do you want this line, once it's there (assuming it will be) to do?

Limerick Junction to Rosslare/Waterford is a very similar line. It serves Clonmel, Limerick, Rosslare, Cahir, plenty of people live there. As T21 says above, the weekly loadings are awful. This is purely because the schedule is a joke and there is no real investment in the line infrastructure.

Do you think IE will run the WRC any better? Do you think that it will being any tangible social and economic benifits to the areas it will run through? If you do, ask yourself what tangible social and economic benifits will be lost by closing the exisitng Rosslare/Limerick line. None, becaue it is irrelevent. So it will be with the WRC.

What trains will run on it? More than likely a single railcar or a double. Where are IE going to get them from? IE are already short of railcars for the existing services. IE are busy scrapping the older GM fleet, so it wont be Loco hauled, and anyway by the time it opens all of the Cravens and Mrk2d's will be gone.

Some of the posters above are right about the fact that it dodnt matter if the damned thing is a loss maker, I fell that all public transport should be assumed to be loss making. Once you get into the idea that it muist be proifitable you're not provding public transport at all anymore as any service could go once it is unprofitable. However, I think a lot of people are making an assumption that once the track is laid that it'll be new track, it'll be new trains, it'll be a user friendly timetable. It wont. It'll bne second hand track, it'll be first generation railcars and it wont get you to work on time.

Have a look at the P11 website. There's a guy in Monastereven who'll be very interested in talking to you about investing oin rail services.

Schuhart

popebenny16 wrote:

Some of the posters above are right about the fact that it dodnt matter if the damned thing is a loss maker, I fell that all public transport should be assumed to be loss making

I know you're not making a dogmatic point here, so hopefully you might reflect on it a little because its not quite right.

It probably is inevitable that public transport makes a loss in the sense that fares don't cover costs. But this does not mean that all losses, no matter how high, are acceptable. The loss made on public transport needs bear some relationship to the benefit achieved in terms of moving people around.

That's what's wrong with WRC. €10 million of an annual subsidy would be fine if the service was actually going to attract large numbers of people. But it won't. And the 'build it and they will come' philosophy simply does not work any more than the 'don't build it and they'll stay away' policy has worked in Dublin.

popebenny16

No, it isnt quite right, but its right enough. You do have to factor into the equation social and economic benifits that public transport brings.

An example: A particular bus route may not be profitable, but its the only one that serves the industrial estate. Without it, perhaps some businesses may go under, so it would be wrong to scrap it as a loss maker, as it has hidden benifits which arent seen on a balance sheet.

Same goes for the WRC, which is why I made reference to the existing Rosslare/Limerick Junction line. It has to be demonstrated that it will actually do something. If it can, how come a similar existing rail line cant? Therefore, if an existing similar line cant, how can the WRC?

Schuhart

popebenny16 wrote:

You do have to factor into the equation social and economic benifits that public transport brings.

I think we pretty much agree.

All I want to draw attention to is the way some people (not you) talk almost as if any loss is acceptable. Some also talk about proposals having 'hidden' benefits when what they actually mean is negligible benefits. A benefit might hard to quantify - but it still needs to be shown to be substantial. In the case in point, its hard to see what social benefit is yielded by investing hundreds of millions to move 750 people a day at an annual cost of €10 million.

D'Peoples Voice

Avns1s wrote:

I don't even think those outside the area affected ought to have an anti opinion on this issue. If those in the area feel that it has benefit, then that's all that matters.

No offence but this arguemnt would only hold if those in the area who felt that it has benefit paid for the train by having a quick wip around and pooling their money to pay for it. Because oter shave to pay for it, it should be an issue for them.
Secondly I take offence to your comments that people in the East don't want money going west. That is nothing short of a grave generalisation. People in the East, south, north & west of this country should question if every large investment will give a positive net present value.

For me, wasting money on a train that we know will be loss making is madness, REGARDLESS where it is built. My view is that the less the Government WASTE, the better we all become!
For example if the Gov gave up on this project and started thinking about how they could help many of the fishing communities recover from the recent cut-backs in the fishing quota, or the RELATIVE fall-off in tourism due to the increase of cheap foreign flights, and lack of amenities in the West in terms of amusements & leisure centres for kids etc, or the national primary roads in the region, then I may not have a problem, because it may be MY money well spent.

Transport21 Fan

Schuhart wrote:

I think we pretty much agree.

All I want to draw attention to is the way some people (not you) talk almost as if any loss is acceptable. Some also talk about proposals having 'hidden' benefits when what they actually mean is negligible benefits. A benefit might hard to quantify - but it still needs to be shown to be substantial. In the case in point, its hard to see what social benefit is yielded by investing hundreds of millions to move 750 people a day at an annual cost of €10 million.

Well said. That's more or less the anti-WRC argument FAQ, and what I and groups like P11 have being saying for the last 2 years summed up nicely in one paragraph.

If the WRC had the population and critical mass to justify the reopening costs and annual subvention, as it shifting large numbers of people from private cars to public transport, then go for it.

But it won't - the West of Ireland as it currently stands is the worst case scenario for rail passenger service viability outside short commuter hops in and around Limerick, Galway and maybe Sligo to Boyle.

So to anyone with an objective mind, the Sligo-Limerick WRC is a farce of no real benefit to either the national rail network, nor public transport provision in the West of Ireland. It's providing a solution to a problem which does not exsist, and even if it did exsist, cannot not be fixed with a single track rail line carrying 750 grannies on free travel passes each day. Only proper LUTS planning will make the WRC a go-er. Everything else is hype and hyperbole.

I suspect the game is up now for the Sligo-Limerick dream since this article came out in the Times yesterday as it paints a very bad picture of the WoT people and their overall mentality, which in turn highlights just how unviable the whole idea was all along.

Ennis to Athenry yes, (its got a real chance of doing the business and may lead to Shannon getting a rail link eventually) - and that's all we'll ever see reopened and I suspect it'll be years before a train is running on that section.

popebenny16

What does LUTS stand for?

monument

SeanW wrote:

Certainly about the WRC, it most certainly was not judged on viability but on political grounds. Both Indakenny and Pat Rabbite are Mayo men, and that whole business with P. and Beverly-Cooper Flynn hasn't fully gone away.

….

popebenny16 wrote:

SeanW has hit the nail on the head.

There is only a political imperitave on this. Mayo is the motherlode of seats.

Why isnt Meath getting any priority?

Meath: 3 FF 2 FG

Mayo: 1 FF 1 Ind, 2 FG, Bev..

Why do you lot keep voting some of them and others from the west in??? Pat Rabbite… “Constituency: Dublin South West”, and that’s just one of many examples.

As SeanW pointed out, this is political.

If I was in charge of the transport plans and the choice was the between the WRC and a proper network for Meath, the latter would have to come first – just on shear numbers.

But this is political, and Meath on Track attacking the WRC is simply counterproductive (rather then using it – saying something like if they are getting a line with those numbers etc).

I’d prefer to stay well in the middle ground on this (city centre Dublin transport is most likely what will actually effect me in the future). I’ve seen both sides on the WRC (here and in other places) using overstated arguments – from abstract one-sided logic to abstract one-sided cries of being disadvantaged.

Just to point out, with the Times coverage the other day the accompany article to the one above added a bit more balance.

markf909

popebenny16 wrote:

What does LUTS stand for?

Land Use and Transportation Study

popebenny16

Thanks Mark.

I remember many years ago attending a protest in Ballymun (T21 fan may have been still living there at the time) about the linking of the M50 to Ballymun. We were told that roads bring jobs. You really had to be there. It was if we were in the back of beyond, not on the fringe of a capital city with an airport across the field. Road was built, no-one local was employed on it.

The regenration has started, feck all locals got building jobs on it. Hello there to all the GAMA workers in Balcurris, how's it going? If you're lucky there may be jobs in that flatpack crowd who I cant remember the name of. What there is though is loads of traffic, mostly people getting to and from the M50 and going through the area.

A road, a railway, on its own, dosnt matter. It has to serve some need. It has to come with something to justify it. There are no intels or the like queueing up to build beside every station on the route that thr WRC will take. If we were being told there would be, ie a promise, it would be good. Sadly it is doubtful, any manufacturing inductsy or somesuch that will need namy hundreds of people will more than likely locate in Galway or Sligo or Castlebar.

Hoof Hearted

Reasons why the WRC will be a success. First you can't compare it with the Limerick to Rosslare line.
Let's start with basics. Limerick to Ennis. Modestly successful and a good basis to start with.
The WRC will be a success at least to Claremorris and maybe successful to Sligo.
Reasons:
- Huge awareness of the service, which the Limerick to Waterford service never had.
- The longer distance involved make rail travel more attactive especially when the journey is longer than 100 miles.
- It would be the first choice of tourists wishing to visit the "scenic" areas of Ireland
- If one looks at Sligo for example users of the service would include the populations of Donegal, Sligo, Roscommon and the Western counties of Northern Ireland that wish to travel extended distance to the South, South West and South east of Ireland. (The following extra options would then be available for full WRC, NW to SW, NW to S, NW to SE, W to SW, W to S, W to SE, W to NW, W to N, N to SW, N to S, N to SE.
- The WRC would link enough lines to make rail a viable alternative when making long North-South journeys (the key here is simplicity, one mode of transport for point to point travel right to the center of most cities and towns, without the city traffic congestion)
- The tourism benefits alone may justify the cost. It would not surprise me if there is a large summer demand from tourists. To most tourists there is a perception of more certainty and less complexity when travelling extended distances by rail, not least the fact that there are on board toilet and snack facilities. Plus train travel is far safer and not affected by road traffic congestion.
- Outside of summer there will be a large student demand. Students from Sligo, Donegal and Mayo may now consider studying in Limerick or even Cork or Waterford
- If one looks at the travel patterns between communities in the West one sees a larger amount of kms travelled than the population could otherwise suggest. (People in Dublin usually stay in Dublin as all required services are within Dublin)
- The Limerick to Waterford service if coordinated with the WRC schedules would actually see an increase in number. (Tourists arriving at Rosslare might actually consider travelling by train to Galway, Sligo and the Nortwest where as a bus could involve 4 separate bus journeys dealing with city and town traffic congestion, wait time between buses or the possiblity of missed bus connections.)
- Long term even if there was a one in ten chance of the WRC being hugely successful, and suppose the WRC was the spark to ignite an economic engine in the west, I think it would be worth it on a risk/reward basis. After all we are all the same people who brought about the Celtic Tiger, so there is no reason why the goals and achievements of economic success can be achieved in the West also. (How about Ireland having three economic engines, Dublin, Cork and the West - it would do wonders for economic reduncdancy - if one are is weak the others take up the slack. Eek what if Dublin went down, it could happen because of its cost competitiveness - I think we need a Dublin of the West, e.g. Limerick or Galway - the WRC is a good first step)
- If oil prices continue rising rail travel has a better chance of competing with the car and truck. Thus the WRC gives the West and Ireland as a whole enegy security and a transport alternative for freight and passangers alike.

There are much more reasons which I have not listed here. I hope this restores postive optimist thinking to the debate. It's the optimists in Ireland that brought about Ireland's economic success and not the nay sayers. Knocking down solutions is always easier than developing them.

popebenny16

First you can't compare it with the Limerick to Rosslare line.

Why not? All of the following:

The WRC would link enough lines to make rail a viable alternative when making long North-South journeys (the key here is simplicity, one mode of transport for point to point travel right to the center of most cities and towns, without the city traffic congestion)
- The tourism benefits alone may justify the cost. It would not surprise me if there is a large summer demand from tourists. To most tourists there is a perception of more certainty and less complexity when travelling extended distances by rail, not least the fact that there are on board toilet and snack facilities. Plus train travel is far safer and not affected by road traffic congestion.
- Outside of summer there will be a large student demand. Students from Sligo, Donegal and Mayo may now consider studying in Limerick or even Cork or Waterford

and

The Limerick to Waterford service if coordinated with the WRC schedules would actually see an increase in number. (Tourists arriving at Rosslare might actually consider travelling by train to Galway, Sligo and the Nortwest where as a bus could involve 4 separate bus journeys dealing with city and town traffic congestion, wait time between buses or the possiblity of missed bus connections.)
- Long term even if there was a one in ten chance of the WRC being hugely successful, and suppose the WRC was the spark to ignite an economic engine in the west, I think it would be worth it on a risk/reward basis. After all we are all the same people who brought about the Celtic Tiger, so there is no reason why the goals and achievements of economic success can be achieved in the West also. (How about Ireland having three economic engines, Dublin, Cork and the West - it would do wonders for economic reduncdancy - if one are is weak the others take up the slack. Eek what if Dublin went down, it could happen because of its cost competitiveness - I think we need a Dublin of the West, e.g. Limerick or Galway - the WRC is a good first step)
- If oil prices continue rising rail travel has a better chance of competing with the car and truck. Thus the WRC gives the West and Ireland as a whole enegy security and a transport alternative for freight and passangers alike.

Apply to the Limerick Rosslale line, simply substitute Cork for Galway, Waterford for Donegal, Tipperary for Sligo.

you say yourself:

Limerick to Ennis. Modestly successful

There is huge awareness of the Limerick to Rosslare line in the areas it goes through and the surrounding areas. That is why no-body uses it.

Most of the positives you have stated are mostly tourist and student based travelers. They are not regular customers. How many people from donegal will head to work in Galway because there is a train from Sligo, for example? Students will go on a Sunday evening and Friday evening, that's two journeys per week.

I dont think there would be an ecominic boom from it either. What economic boom has the train brought in the last 10 years? Where? Nowhere. Even in Maynooth and Leixlip they didnt build a station for Intel, they built a link off the motorway.

if Dublin went down

That last quote has left even me speechless. How, exactly, could that happen? Atomic Bomb? And I thought the guy on the humanities thread was bad, he started quoting the existance of the illuminatii at me.

Schuhart

With respect, Hoof Hearted, you are talking complete bollocks.

John R

Schuhart wrote:

With respect, Hoof Hearted, you are talking complete bollocks.

I was going to break his post down point-by-point but really that says it all.

All of the traffic he suggests the Northern WRC is going to cater for is ALREADY covered by existing bus services which for the most part are pretty good. The current improvements in the road network and a small investement in the bus services would give a cheaper, quicker and far more frequent public transport service for more people than the WRC can ever manage.

The projected WRC journey times are not great, the current stopping bus Galway-Sligo is comparable and a non-stop express would be far quicker.

The WRC is nonsense of the highest order, it does not stand up to scrutiny as a viable project on any level.