Western Rail Corridor

Hoof Hearted

popebenny16 wrote:

Why not? All of the following:



and



Apply to the Limerick Rosslale line, simply substitute Cork for Galway, Waterford for Donegal, Tipperary for Sligo.

you say yourself:





There is huge awareness of the Limerick to Rosslare line in the areas it goes through and the surrounding areas. That is why no-body uses it.

Most of the positives you have stated are mostly tourist and student based travelers. They are not regular customers. How many people from donegal will head to work in Galway because there is a train from Sligo, for example? Students will go on a Sunday evening and Friday evening, that's two journeys per week.

I dont think there would be an ecominic boom from it either. What economic boom has the train brought in the last 10 years? Where? Nowhere. Even in Maynooth and Leixlip they didnt build a station for Intel, they built a link off the motorway.




That last quote has left even me speechless. How, exactly, could that happen? Atomic Bomb? And I thought the guy on the humanities thread was bad, he started quoting the existance of the illuminatii at me.

I not talking about the WRC in commuter terms a discussion I will leave for another day. To your point Rosslare to Cork is not a very direct rail journey with inconvenient schedules, slow running speeds and long waits between changes.
With a completed WRC, a coordinated schedule, improved line quality to Rosslare and the longer distances involved and perhaps an express train, the tables would be turned. I'm looking at it, to give an example, from a tourist's perspective.

As regards economic revival, a rail link connecting large distances can have a stimulus effect on a national scale considering it interlinks the radials from Dublin.

I would say that if the Rosslare Limerick was restored to 90mph operation people would consider it for longer journeys northward. Right now it's barely over 30mph average speed for journeys. A huge reason as to why it's not used. In addition to awful schedules people are not going to use rail for short rural journeys (less than 80 miles) even if the service was fast which it is not.
If the reasons are there to attact students and tourists to travel, then it would not be long before business travellers would see the light.

when I talked about Dublin going down I meant a recession

Hoof Hearted

Schuhart wrote:

With respect, Hoof Hearted, you are talking complete bollocks.

As I said this country has a lot of knockers and naysayers. I didn't think one would respond so quickly.

Slice

Just on reading this thread it appears to me that some of us are agueing against the WRC on basis of economics alone as though it were the only issue at hand. I don't mean for anyone to take what I say to mean that I'm entirely in favour of the WRC, in fact I don't really have much of an opinion on it. However, to suggest that the entire West of Ireland is not worth bothering with on the basis that it's a financial drain on the public sector is quite possible the most one-dimensional, ignorant, narrow-minded and facist/undemocratic opinion I've heard.

The same arguement could be applied, as some have pointed out, against public transport in general or a myriad of other issues but obviously that's only when it 'suits'.

Economics is one thing - at the expense of everything else is another altogher...

markf909

Hoof Hearted just have a quick glance over your initial post and count the number of ifs and mays.
Im sure you mean well but this topic has been debated here many times and the numbers really do not add up.
As other have pointed out the bus service would be just as quick. The 3 trains a day servicing ~700 people is a
folly considering the people of Middleton have had to wait since the late seventies and the people of Navan still
have no firm committment of a re-opening. The mantra of "build it and they will come" is absurd especially when
guaranteed commuters in Navan have been told "come and we may build it".

popebenny16

However, to suggest that the entire West of Ireland is not worth bothering with on the basis that it's a financial drain on the public sector is quite possible the most one-dimensional, ignorant, narrow-minded and facist/undemocratic opinion I've heard.

We'll I'd agree with that. It's just that when you're talking about such a collossal amount of money for what will be a barely used service all sorts of stuff can come up in the debate.

To your point Rosslare to Cork is not a very direct rail journey with inconvenient schedules, slow running speeds and long waits between changes.

That isnt my point. You mentioned counties which adjoin the WRC, I memtioned ones which adjoin the Limerick/Rosslare lilne for comparison.

In addition to awful schedules people are not going to use rail for short rural journeys (less than 80 miles) even if the service was fast which it is not.

That sounds very much like the rationale behind the WRC. If it isnt then you are assuming there will be sufficent demand from Sligo to Galway.

I not talking about the WRC in commuter terms a discussion I will leave for another day.

well, that's fair enough, but I think that if it dosnt attract commuters then it's a dead duck and I dont see the commuters there.

If the reasons are there to attact students and tourists to travel, then it would not be long before business travellers would see the light.

But they would have to be going from somewhere to somewhere. How many business travellers would be taking up the option?

Lokk, this government is simple having a laugh with people in the west over this. If there was any - any - real committment to the West then the NSS wouldnt have been sidelined and the de-centralisation fiasco would never have happened. I for one want to see the entrire country getting taken up by the rising tide. If the NSS was the priority, along with T21 and the WRC all at once, you can make a good coherant case for the WRC. Without the NSS you wont get the investment in business, industry (will we ever become a manuafacturing nation again?) and people that is needed for the WRC to get going.

John R

Slice wrote:

Just on reading this thread it appears to me that some of us are agueing against the WRC on basis of economics alone as though it were the only issue at hand. I don't mean for anyone to take what I say to mean that I'm entirely in favour of the WRC, in fact I don't really have much of an opinion on it. However, to suggest that the entire West of Ireland is not worth bothering with on the basis that it's a financial drain on the public sector is quite possible the most one-dimensional, ignorant, narrow-minded and facist/undemocratic opinion I've heard.

Sigh. Please for fuk sake give the poor undervalued culchie victim routine a rest.

Nobody is suggesting denying the west all funding, it is all about the value of this particular project.

The bare facts are that not everywhere is suitable for passenger rail travel.

Go look at a map of Irish railways from around 1920, the country was covered in rail lines, most are now gone. This happened because apart from travel between large population centres and commuting into the cities the demand dropped as road transport took over.

In rural areas of Ireland very little has changed, there are no new towns with large population on the WRC to provide passengers for the line.

For decades up til the mid 90's rail travel was out of fashion, it was old technology with limited future potential. Now that terminal traffic congestion in our cities is spiralling out of control rail is suddenly the must have development. While that is very much the case for cities, commuting and inter-city travel there has been no big change in the West that makes rail significantly more attractive than 40 years ago. In fact with the booming car-ownership there is less of a case for it now than ever.

Slice wrote:

The same arguement could be applied, as some have pointed out, against public transport in general or a myriad of other issues but obviously that's only when it 'suits'.

Again, nobody is saying that. I would be in favour of a reasonable investement in bus based public transport for the West to provide a real alternative to car use for all the towns in the region.

For a fraction of the initial and operating cost of the WRC a top class bus service could be provided to give real transport options to every town in the West.

But that sort of practical service is not what is being asked for, Dublin gets a rail line so a bunch of professional victims in rural ireland demand the same for Mayo.

It defies any sort of logic, is not designed to benefit the lives of most people in the west and will successfully delay and cancel other projects across the country that will provide real benefit.

The only thing it will achieve is to temporarily appease a bunch of people who seem to think they are in some sort of bizarre competition with another region of a very small country.

dowlingm

Look - wouldn't it be nice if the taxpaying public was willing to say let's pay 10-20c more per litre of petrol or whatever it takes to reinstate the WRC, Foynes-Limerick, Clonsilla-Navan-Drogheda, make Limerick-Waterford and Limerick-Nenagh work, LUAS for Galway and Cork, put in a Shannon spur, extend beyond Midleton to Youghal, extend the KRP quad tracking etc. etc. etc. Make a wish and there's a rail line or electrification or light rail. It's no longer "viability" and "3.5 billion" and "fairness" but everyone gets what they want.

The problem is simple - the taxpaying public at this point in time is not willing to pay the required price in increased taxes. Furthermore it is investing in a service with serious historical industrial relations issues - roads on the other hand don't strike. With that in mind you proceed cautiously, investing in things even the taxpayer can see is a good deal. Navan. Midleton. Joining up LUAS. Rails to Dublin airport.

Public transit is incremental - the more you add the more bang you get but there comes a stage when the mode you choose is carrying everyone it's going to. Unless people in the west drive to one town to catch a train to another town to go shopping or go to work where's the demand coming from?

If Galway-Oranmore-Athenry works it's worth looking at Tuam. Put a park and ride in and see where the cars are coming from and track monthly/yearly pass subscriptions. Get Tuam Town Council to organise feeder buses from nearby towns and villages if BE won't. If people are actually coming from Claremorris (rather than what they answer in door to door "wouldn't it be nice surveys" or whatever West on Track claim on their "silent majority" behalf) then extend to Claremorris which allows alternate routes for freight which is currently running from Ballina to go via Portarlington or via Limerick to Waterford rather than through Dublin. Develop the hell out of Claremorris which is now once again a nexus for Ballina, Castlebar and Tuam and put a feeder bus to the airport.

One other problem with Claremorris-Collooney is that unlike Glounthaune-Midleton which is under the principal auspices of Cork CC, Claremorris-Collooney will pass from Mayo to Roscommon to Sligo so now you need to get three different councils to all agree on development plans to support the railway - one laggard and the whole thing doesn't work. Part of the problem is the fact that the NRA isn't the NRRA (the second r being rail) and as seen with Clonsilla-Navan some county councils will talk about doing stuff with the alignments and then lay a sewer right alongside.

Do you see Cork County Council refusing the Midleton line on the grounds it doesn't go all the way to Youghal? You don't. I bet I'll live to see Youghal back on a railway line though. It won't be any time soon but when it happens it will be because it makes sense and because of CCC extending the scope of LUTS/CASP. Claremorris-Collooney by rail makes no sense.

Navan Junction

markf909 wrote:

The mantra of "build it and they will come" is absurd especially when guaranteed commuters in Navan have been told "come and we may build it".

Brilliant...;)

Avns1s

dowlingm wrote:

One other problem with Claremorris-Collooney is that unlike Glounthaune-Midleton which is under the principal auspices of Cork CC, Claremorris-Collooney will pass from Mayo to Roscommon to Sligo so now you need to get three different councils to all agree on development plans to support the railway - one laggard and the whole thing doesn't work. Part of the problem is the fact that the NRA isn't the NRRA (the second r being rail) and as seen with Clonsilla-Navan some county councils will talk about doing stuff with the alignments and then lay a sewer right alongside.

Do you see Cork County Council refusing the Midleton line on the grounds it doesn't go all the way to Youghal? You don't. I bet I'll live to see Youghal back on a railway line though. It won't be any time soon but when it happens it will be because it makes sense and because of CCC extending the scope of LUTS/CASP. Claremorris-Collooney by rail makes no sense.

Can you tell us exactly what part of Roscommon the WRC goes through????

aliveandkicking

Avns1s wrote:

Can you tell us exactly what part of Roscommon the WRC goes through????

Excellent - focus on a small mistake rather than debate the points being raised.

Avns1s

aliveandkicking wrote:

Excellent - focus on a small mistake rather than debate the points being raised.

What has this comment to do with you??? If you take the time and trouble to read back through the posts, you will find that I have made my views perfectly clear on this issue. I'm merely highlighting the fact that many people expressing views on this issue really aren't "qualified" through adequate knowledge on the matter itself, the region or national context, etc to have their opinions taken very seriously.

Moving away for your comment (which probably didn't deserve a reply anyway), everyone here can bang on all they like, and it does surprise me that there is such a swathe of opinion on this matter in the first place, but reality is that none of us have any realistic contribution to make to the decision on the WRC. It is up to the government. Maybe it will happen, maybe it won't, but the sentiments expressed in here and people shouting insults at each other won't influence it one way or the other.

I can't quite imagine the Minister for Transport or Bertie for that matter, trawling through boards.ie to find out what the overwhelming opinion is, on this matter!

fly_agaric

Hoof Hearted wrote:

economic reduncdancy - if one are is weak the others take up the slack. Eek what if Dublin went down

Oh Yay! Another boards.ie poster who was busy choking the old chicken and praying for the radiation to smite Dublin during Fallout!

aliveandkicking

Avns1s wrote:

I'm merely highlighting the fact that many people expressing views on this issue really aren't "qualified" through adequate knowledge on the matter itself, the region or national context, etc to have their opinions taken very seriously.

Read the article that started this thread. Would you accept the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) are "qualified" enough (considering its their actual job) to have their opinion taken seriously?

Or what about Pat McCann who spent months studying all aspects of the WRC and came to the conclusion: "I have not heard any economic, commercial or social arguments that would justify the complete restoration of the line as one project and I would not support such a proposal."

The real problem here is that many western based posters can't seem to accept the fact that the WRC is a bad idea. They seem to see any investment in the west as good no matter what it is spent on and cannot objectively look at it from a national perspective.

SeanW

Avns1s wrote:

I can't quite imagine the Minister for Transport or Bertie for that matter, trawling through boards.ie to find out what the overwhelming opinion is, on this matter!

You're right, they don't. Only one thing matters to them: votes.

FF has major electoral probelms in Mayo, with the Beverly Flynn business still going on and both opposition leaders coming from there.

So they hear some priest is going on about some railway and decide to throw half a billion at it. What do they care, it isn't thier money, but will get them votes.

Even if it turns out to be a white elephant and destorys forever both IEs books and the image of rail transport development in Ireland.

Navan Junction

Madam, - May I comment on the article by Environment Correspondent Frank McDonald on the report of the expert working group chaired by Mr Pat McCann and the Government's decision to include the Western Rail Corridor as part of Transport 21?

In our view the Government is to be commended for taking a national view of the development of infrastructure and looking to the future in terms of planning for the whole country.

It is generally accepted that the western region has lagged behind in terms of infrastructural investment. For years now, the IDA, Ireland West Tourism and many others have been pointing out that a lack of basic infrastructure is severely hampering the region's development.

Reopening the Western Rail Corridor will help greatly to redress this imbalance, but it can achieve its full potential only when the entire route is reopened. The strength of this railway is that it is the sum of all its parts.

That is why linking Sligo and Galway by rail to Limerick and Cork makes perfect sense, especially since the basic infrastructure is already in place and the property already in State ownership. In the light of rising oil prices and motoring costs, it also seems extraordinary that anyone could doubt that the linking of Galway and Limerick, the third and fourth largest cities of the state by rail would not deliver value for money. This is, after all, the busiest bus route in the state.

Talk of "low critical mass" and "low population densities" will bring wry smiles to the faces of those making the 30,000 car journeys a day on the N17 between Tuam and Galway (NRA statistics). Just how much critical mass do the cities and towns of the west require before they can be deemed worthy of the level of infrastructure made available to them in the 19th century by a foreign government?

The figures showing "very modest demand", quoted by Mr McDonald, were roundly rejected by practically every member of the working group, and the report in question was not made available to the group's members for analysis. West on Track subsequently had the figures evaluated privately by another firm of transport consultants and was told that they seriously understated the potential passenger traffic on the WRC.

A more instructive example for potential passenger use might be the reopened Ennis-Limerick section which is actually part of the WRC, and which has carried huge numbers of passengers since 2003. In its first year of operation it carried more than 140,000. Crucially, there are seven trains each day and modern rolling stock, an essential element of any successful service.

While Mr McCann felt the demand was weaker on the section north of Claremorris, he explicitly stated in his report that this section could be reopened on the grounds of balanced regional development.

As far as subsidies are concerned, no one would sensibly suggest that the Dart, though heavily subsidised, is a waste of money. Rather it is an essential piece of national infrastructure. It is a fact that all modes of transport require subsidy. What parameters are used to measure the value for money delivered by roads? It should be remembered that building one mile of railway is significantly cheaper than one mile of road.

In Transport 21 the Government has chosen to develop rail transport in a way not seen since before the foundation of the State. The entire Western Rail Corridor project comprises a tiny fraction of that whole plan.

Balanced regional development and the implementation of the National Spatial Strategy are the cornerstones of Government policy and the logical basis for the reopening of the Western Rail Corridor.

I respectfully suggest that it was in that context that Mr McCann recommended the phased reopening of the WRC. - Yours, etc,

COLMÁN Ó RAGHALLAIGH, West on Track, Claremorris, Co Mayo.

Transport21 Fan

Reopening the Western Rail Corridor will help greatly to redress this imbalance, but it can achieve its full potential only when the entire route is reopened. The strength of this railway is that it is the sum of all its parts.

and then he says...

Talk of "low critical mass" and "low population densities" will bring wry smiles to the faces of those making the 30,000 car journeys a day on the N17 between Tuam and Galway (NRA statistics).

These two statements are in total contradiction with one another.

Just how much critical mass do the cities and towns of the west require before they can be deemed worthy of the level of infrastructure made available to them in the 19th century by a foreign government?

You need lots of critical mass actually, and there were no cars in the 19th century. Love the little dig at questioning the patiortism of anybody who questions the WRC.

The figures showing "very modest demand", quoted by Mr McDonald, were roundly rejected by practically every member of the working group

The dissenters being people such as the RPA who actually know about this rail transport stuff.

As far as subsidies are concerned, no one would sensibly suggest that the Dart, though heavily subsidised, is a waste of money. Rather it is an essential piece of national infrastructure. It is a fact that all modes of transport require subsidy. What parameters are used to measure the value for money delivered by roads? It should be remembered that building one mile of railway is significantly cheaper than one mile of road.

You can just tell he knows the game is up. He would of been better off saying nothing as this will just make people want to know who edited the final report and took out the critical aspects of the McCann Report.

DerekP11

As predicted it didn't take long.

I could dissect it all night long, but I won't because it contains nothing new. How unfortunate that Mr. O'Raghallaigh has made no attempt to shed new light on the worthiness of this project.

References to British rule in Ireland, only furthers my belief that some in the west of Ireland still believe that they are holding out and Michael Collins is on the way to rescue them. This kind of commentary is a perfect example of why people view those in the west as Gombeens. Mr.O'Raghallaigh's, "propaganda", (and thats what it is) about the DART subsidy and roads is so wide of the mark, its laughable. His secrecy about who actaully carried out the "favourable" evaluation for West on Track should be questioned. The WRC has been evaluated by two different, independent and professional companies (Booze,Allen,Hamilton and Fauber Maunsell) Both found it to be an unfavourable prospect. The latter may not have been made available to the working group and Mr. O'Raghallaigh's admission that it wasn't precludes him from making some of the wild claims made in his letter. This is probably why he cannot question the estimates of 750 passegers a day and by the end of his letter, falls back on the tired and worn out reasons of "balanced Regional Development" and "the National Spatial Strategy" for reopening the WRC.

The McCann report was doctored by someone. Thats a fact. But by who? I have in my possession two different versions that I received in Castlebar last May.

This whole WRC business needs to be examined again. I suggest that everyone here that disagrees with its reopening, writes to their local TDs requesting that its evaluated within the context of a dedicated study by an experienced firm. Why? Simply because its our taxes and has not been subjected to in depth analysis. Furthermore, operating lines such as Limerick - Waterford and Ballybrophy - Limerick are in a deplorable state and have no funding under T21. Despite all the great arguments here, does this simple anomaly make sense?

dowlingm

Avns1s wrote:

Can you tell us exactly what part of Roscommon the WRC goes through????

From the McCann Report, page 12:
http://www.transport.ie/upload/general/6645-0.pdf

Firstly, the section should be preserved in its entirety by clearing, fencing, etc and Mayo, Roscommon and Sligo County Councils should make the necessary arrangements as soon as possible.

West on Track links to Sligo, Mayo, Roscommon and Leitrim County Councils.

markf909

Editorial in Todays Irish Times

Well said Madam Editor

Off the rails

The Government should stop trying to fool the people of the West and tell them bluntly that their promise to reopen a western rail corridor, as a driver of economic growth, will not be viable for the foreseeable future. In spite of potential political repercussions, it would be the decent and honourable thing to do. Rather than persevere with this project, funding should be switched to the inadequate road network and the urgent development of a north/south dual carriageway.

Fianna Fáil and the Progressive Democrats promised to re-open a western rail corridor linking Sligo, Galway and Limerick in their election manifestoes of 2002. Since then, nothing has been done. But the Government has kept its commitment alive - following intense local pressure - through the establishment of two strategic rail reviews. The first exercise, by professional consultants in 2003, omitted the project from a 20-year priority rail investment plan on the grounds that the benefits would not justify the cost. In the following year a new study, involving local interests, was undertaken. It also found the idea of a western rail corridor to be impractical at this time, but recommended the phased development of commuter services in the Limerick/Galway region and the reopening of the rail link to Claremorris. The link to Sligo was dropped. Capital costs for the revised scheme, at €168 million, were significantly lower than those estimated in the earlier study.

Promises to drain the Shannon have been significant vote-getters in the past. But they involved a cruel deception of tens of thousands of small farmers who were struggling to make a living. And when those undertakings could not be kept, the ensuing public despair was all the greater. People lost confidence in politics and in politicians. The same negative reaction could re-emerge in the west because of political fudge, unrealistic promises and a failure to invest in effective regional development.

A full-scale western rail corridor is not absolutely necessary for economic development. But investment in public transport, in roads, in education, in broadband and in high voltage electricity for industry is desperately needed.

The rail corridor has been a smoke-and-mirrors exercise, designed to distract public attention from the larger economic picture and to retain credibility as a general election approaches. The Government parties made promises they could not keep in 2002. That happens. Spending €200 million on a section of track in a depopulated and under-developed area could not be justified. People would understand that. After all, it is their money. But they deserve to be told.

unkel

WRC for 700 passengers per day! :eek:

Cheaper to give them all taxi vouchers for the price of a train ticket surely?

John R

Promises to drain the Shannon have been significant vote-getters in the past.

LMFAO.

How gullible are these people?

<Goes off to raise local support for Ballaghaderreen space port>

Transport21 Fan

from Today's Irish Times:

The rail corridor has been a smoke-and-mirrors exercise, designed to distract public attention from the larger economic picture and to retain credibility as a general election approaches. The Government parties made promises they could not keep in 2002. That happens. Spending €200 million on a section of track in a depopulated and under-developed area could not be justified. People would understand that. After all, it is their money. But they deserve to be told.

Sligo Weekender > 2004/04/13 > Pressure group want to derail west track plan

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 :

A RAIL transport lobby group has thrown cold water on the idea of re-opening the Western Rail Corridor.
Platform11, a national rail transport pressure group, does not believe that spending E300 million to reopen the railway line from Sligo to Limerick, delivers value for money to Irish taxpayers.
And more importantly, they say, it will do nothing to enhance the operational potential of the national rail passenger transport network.
“Rail transport in the West of Ireland would benefit more from increasing the frequency of current services into the region, which would by default, also create viable commuter services in the West and Midlands.”
Platform11 was formed in January 2003 to lobby for improved, integrated rail transport solutions for Ireland. The group describes itself as “objective observers and customers of Ireland’s rail transportation network”.
In a statement the group said that it believes that the end result of spending E300 on the project would be “little more than an infrequent local connecting rail service which would have very limited commuter traffic potential with the possible exception of the Galway-Oranmore-Tuam corridor”.
They refer to some “reality checks”, which they say must be applied to the Western Rail corridor proposal.
They point out that there is no major population centre north of Tuam along the WRC which is not currently served by rail. “There is already an adequate rail service to the largest town on this section of the route, Claremorris - which not only connects the town with Dublin, but every other major town in Mayo by rail. Claremorris already enjoys a superior rail service than many towns around Ireland of a much larger population.”
They say that road traffic congestion, which may justify a WRC rail commuter service, currently exists only between Tuam and Galway city.
Rail freight, they say, is being successfully transported to and from Ballina/Sligo on the existing network without using the WRC.
“Rail freight flows in terms of operating efficiency, would not be improved by the reopening of the WRC. They would have access to an alternative route to their final destination, which would not be significantly shorter in distance than current rail freight paths between the West of Ireland and other regions.”
They also point out that the West of Ireland already has the heaviest concentration of passenger rail lines in the entire county.
Their final ”reality check” is that the operational and maintenance costs of the reopened WRC would present a major financial burden to Iarnród Eireann, due to low patronage of the line and limited appeal of the proposed passenger service to the travelling public
Platform 11 suggest that even the social and economic case has now been called into question as the BMW region in terms of economic development has recently overtaken the South East.
“There are other rail transport projects around the country which would make more intelligent and viable use of new investment such as Cork-Midleton, Dublin-Navan and Athlone-Mullingar.
“E300 million could also go a long way to securing the future and development of our existing regional rail routes such as Limerick-Waterford. Platform11 would also like to remind the Government that Dublin remains the only capital city in the EU still without a rail link of any kind to its airport.”

I can remember writing that piece when I was P11 Comms like it was yesterday. Nice to see everything finally slot perfectly into place at last.

murphaph

It's like watching all in WoT cower in a corner of a dark dank room as a bright light of truth is shone upon them!! Fair play to madam editor. Colman, the game is up buddy. The tide has turned, people (outside of P11 and a select few others) are finally questioning the basis or lack thereof for the WRC. Great day. Build something useful in Connaught with my taxes by all means. If and when Sligo/Mayo/Galway/Clare CC's get their planning together and actually cluster settlements then even go back and reconsider the WRC, but not so long as the current mindset persists. Imagine they had succeeded in draining the Shannon...........

D'Peoples Voice

Hoof Hearted wrote:

Reasons why the WRC will be a success.
- It would be the first choice of tourists wishing to visit the "scenic" areas of Ireland
- The tourism benefits alone may justify the cost. It would not surprise me if there is a large summer demand from tourists.
- The Limerick to Waterford service if coordinated with the WRC schedules would actually see an increase in number. (Tourists arriving at Rosslare might actually consider travelling by train to Galway, Sligo and the Nortwest
- If oil prices continue rising rail travel has a better chance of competing with the car and truck. Thus the WRC gives the West and Ireland as a whole enegy security and a transport alternative for freight and passangers alike.

Unlike others before me, I won't ridicule your view, because I believe debate is good an we should encourage more people to give their views and not be afraid of others being over critical of their views.
However, I do think you should realise one thing, travel by ferry to and from Rosslare is expensive relative to the low cost budget arilines we have today. the percentage of FOOT passengers on car ferries has been falling rapidly in years. What you will get are cars and coaches of tourists who would like to visit the west, but because the gov want to invest in the WRC instead of the roads, access is still poor and will remain so. Ironically most foot passengers tourists would enter through Dublin airport, but again because of people from the west prioritising the WRC over train service to and from Dublin, access to the West is RELATIVELY poor compared to what it could be if investment was transferred from the WRC.
With oil prices going up, what the west should be shouting for is more top of the range coaches to and from large cities, where people could be better connected and more people can be served. For over EUR 300m, you would get a very good service, and a far higher patronage.

markf909 wrote:

Well said Madam Editor

Editorial in Todays Irish Times
Off the rails

The Government should stop trying to fool the people of the West .........funding should be switched to the inadequate road network and the urgent development of a north/south dual carriageway.........professional consultants in 2003, omitted the project ........ on the grounds that the benefits would not justify the cost......A full-scale western rail corridor is not absolutely necessary for economic development. But investment in public transport, in roads, in education, in broadband and in high voltage electricity for industry is desperately needed. Spending €200 million on a section of track in a depopulated and under-developed area could not be justified. People would understand that.

I believe we should make this post a sticky!
I think it's the best, most balanced opinion that I have ever read,
and yes I agree with it, but then that's maybe because it calls a spade a spade.

Navan Junction

I think that there is a serious point being overlooked here.

Navan (as an example) has a massive commuting population.

It can take 2.5hrs in the morning to travel 32 miles to Dublin city centre, and a similar time to return.

According to Minister Martin Cullen Navan cannot be fast tracked because funding is not available.

My issue with the WRC is that the 234km line is sucking up every spare Euro available for railway infrastructure.

Ennis Athenry will have 36 miles of railway by 2008. Meath will have 4.7 miles by 2009.

Ennis Clarmorris will have 110km by 2013. Navan will have 38km by 2015.

I would have found Ennis Athenry by 2008 and Navan Clonsilla by 2011 acceptable because it would have been equal in terms of fast-tracking.

Every spare cent in the country should not be rushed into one 234km railway project with everything else put on hold until it is completed. That is not balanced development.

I would also like to point out that Navan Clonsilla was a single branch line. The WRC consists of 4 seperate historical branches/company lines amalgamated. Even combined into one railway corridor, those 4 branch lines could not hope to compete with even a curtailed 2 trains per morning Navan Droghda service carrying 1,500 passengers each, never mind Navan Clonsilla.

Hoof Hearted

I'm prepared to be humbled but hear me out. I do think the phased approach for the WRC is reasonable. I can't predict the future but let's just wait and see how Ennis-Athenry works out. If this is done properly from the get-go (high frequency, competitive speed, excellent connections to Galway and extensive ad campaign) and it is not a success. Then I will be one of the first to say, let's not go any further.
However, if this is shown to be a success, no time should be wasted extending the WRC to Tuam. Again if success shows itself here with trains departing Tuam for Limerick at useful times and buses from Sligo and Mayo connecting with Tuam station (again with a large targeted ad campaign), then run the numbers again after say a year. If they pan out continue the line to Claremorris immediately. The proof will then be in the pudding. If the WRC is not a success with Claremorris to Ennis section built, I would by all means say go ahead shelf the Claremorris to Colloney section but in lieu of this, implement a Sligo to Claremorris express bus service (the "Wester Rail Express") and promote the hell out of it.

Is this reasonable or what??

D'Peoples Voice

Hoof Hearted wrote:

I'm prepared to be humbled but hear me out. I do think the phased approach for the WRC is reasonable. I can't predict the future but let's just wait and see how Ennis-Athenry works out. If this is done properly from the get-go (high frequency, competitive speed, excellent connections to Galway and extensive ad campaign) and it is not a success. Then I will be one of the first to say, let's not go any further.
However, if this is shown to be a success, no time should be wasted extending the WRC to Tuam. Again if success shows itself here with trains departing Tuam for Limerick at useful times and buses from Sligo and Mayo connecting with Tuam station (again with a large targeted ad campaign), then run the numbers again after say a year. If they pan out continue the line to Claremorris immediately. The proof will then be in the pudding. If the WRC is not a success with Claremorris to Ennis section built, I would by all means say go ahead shelf the Claremorris to Colloney section but in lieu of this, implement a Sligo to Claremorris express bus service (the "Wester Rail Express") and promote the hell out of it.

Is this reasonable or what??

Fail to see how anyone can argue with that!
However I do think though that at the SAME TIME the relevant county councils should start planning their population densities better, so as to increase the probability of future success and not sit on their hands. This is what is causing the problem in the first place.

Navan Junction

monument

Two things that have been banded around here more the a few times...

1) "when Sligo/Mayo/Galway/Clare CC's get their planning together"

And sure that’s because the planning in the Greater Dublin Area (and might as well add the greater area around it) is perfect and no one has every questioned it. Sure, its world class.

2) about a few drive ways layed access the WRC’s path

Oh! What’s this…
http://www.platform11.org/campaigns/navan/dunsany.php

Transport21 Fan wrote:

These two statements are in total contradiction with one another.

"the sum of all its parts" and talking about one part ("between Tuam and Galway") is in total contradiction???


Talking rubbish does just what it does for the WRC camp. As far as I’m concerned, most of the posters here can be trusted just about as much as those in the WRC camp.

Both are up to there necks in self-interests, both through out rhetoric and cheap shots as fast as they can. It nearly always them or us

And just to add, it’s the same posters here that are ignoring that this is political as those who ignore that CIE and RPA are not both controlled by the State.

(Read my last post on what I think about the WRC before responding, thanks)

Navan Junction

monument wrote:

2) about a few drive ways layed access the WRC’s path
Oh! What’s this… http://www.platform11.org/campaigns/navan/dunsany.php

A few driveways? More than a few. The pipeline can be moved - the drive ways and houses can't. The pipeline will not object to being moved. The people in those houses will.

I think it must be remembered that the Collooney stretch is on top of a hundred odd kms to Claremorris.

What if the people of Meath demanded reopening Navan - Kells, Navan - Kingscourt and Kilmessan to Trim as well? Each one of those branches woudl carry more than the WRC's 750 per day.

But Meath will settle for Navan Clonsilla in the short term, and feel very lucky to get that. And not begrudge any other's getting their railways reopened.

In fairness, if you take whatever criteria is used to calculate a justication for reopening the entire WRC, you could use the same criteria to justify reoening virtually any railway on this island.

My only point is that no one project should monopolise rail funding.

I am in no way anti-WRC. But how could I say lets build it now and forget about everything else.

WRC Phase 1 - 110km
Navan Phase 1 - 8km