Western Rail Corridor

Victor

mfitzy wrote:

I just have a quick question- the 750 passengers per day figure is being bandied about here- on a yearly basis this equates to 365,750 passengers per annum

What planet do you live on where there are 487.66 days per year?

Little Fecker

Many people on this forum are all talk and no action. How do I know this?... Well if I had some of the contributors on this forum working for me I know that they would spend half their day online in forums reading and typing messages and not doing work.

Everybody back to work.

Victor, this must be your job, with almost 25,000 posts, the most of anyone on boards.ie, you pretty much have an alibi for the last 7 years if your ever accused of anything.
.....2 minutes later, I just looked up your profile and you were born the exact same day as I, I wonder if it was the same hospital.

Victor

.....2 minutes later, I just looked up your profile and you were born the exact same day as I,

Fool! Its not my real birthday.

I wonder if it was the same hospital.

Bons, Cork?

By the way, have we met?

Little Fecker wrote:

Many people on this forum are all talk and no action. How do I know this?... Well if I had some of the contributors on this forum working for me I know that they would spend half their day online in forums reading and typing messages and not doing work.

Actually, boards.ie has never interfered with my work.

Victor, this must be your job,

I see it more as part of my work, in agreater, vocational sense.

with almost 25,000 posts, the most of anyone on boards.ie, you pretty much have an alibi for the last 7 years if your ever accused of anything.

I also have the bus tickets! But I have only been on boards.ie for 5.5 years.

DerekP11

TO MONUMENT,

Thank you very much for your clarification. Its appreciated and admirable.

westtip

I live in the north west and I am not totally convinced by the argument in favour of the WRC. Accepted it would be a low cost infrastructure project as most of the work is restoration, but from a tourism point of view the rail track could, if designed and marketed properly be a huge tourist attraction - for example if steam trains were run up and down it throughout the summer, it truly would be a great touristic (internal and external tourism) attraction. If it is not going to go ahead the track and its surrounding lands should not be allowed to slowly slip into the private sector or to become part of the road buildng programme. The route would make a fantistic long distance path/cycle route - again primarily aimed a the tourist trade, in fact I would argue if the track is restored a footpath/cyle path should be laid down parallel with track (with a fence between the two) within the lands owned by CIE, again as a health/tourist attraction. The rail track which deserves real support to be reopened is the Athlone/Moate/Mullingar line to give commuters from Athlone/Moate a commuting line into Connolly. A line exists and couldbe easily restored.

Victor

westtip wrote:

if designed and marketed properly be a huge tourist attraction - for example if steam trains were run up and down it throughout the summer

Wait till T21f gets here.

Why couldn't said trains be run on existing lines (I relaise there are some occassional services).

अधिनायक

Is the route scenic? There were two mainline rail lines in Sweden running North-South, one on the coast and one inland. The inland track is now used as a tourist attraction in the summer and to carry freight (mostly logs through the rest of the year).

You'd want to be sure you were going to get a good few tourists in the summer for 300-500m and maybe it shouldn't be paid for out of infrastructure funding.

Transport21 Fan

Victor wrote:

Wait till T21f gets here.

Why couldn't said trains be run on existing lines (I relaise there are some occassional services).

Actually, I have absolutely no problem with heritage locmotive specials on rail lines and in fact I think it's a good thing in many ways, except: when it impacts on, or attempts to hijack a regular passenger timetable services, or line reopenings are being championed on the sly for this reason such as the WRC.

DerekP11

The Athone-Moate-Mullingar line is a diamond, that hasn't been dug out. The SRR was warm to the idea, as an alternative route between east and west. However your Minister for Transport,Martin Cullen, poured cold water on the idea, unless westmeath CC started to "plan" development along the route! (that was back in Oct/Nov 2005) So you see, this line and the Navan line and indeed the Midleton line all had the "planning" provision hung on them. The WRC has had none of these "provisions".

In all fairness, the WRC issue is politics. Despite all the arguments here and to a lesser degree on IRN, the statistics qouted by Frank McDonald have yet to be "rubbished". They won't be, because the pro-WRC camp don't have any alternative professional figures to offer. They still hang back on the issue of, "balanced Regional Development". They have no counter argument that makes the WRC an "important national infrastructural project".

Face it, the WRC was sanctioned for political reasons. The current roads plan is the same.

Think about this. Clonee to north of Kells will be a motorway before the two biggest cities in the Republic of Ireland (Dublin - Cork) are connected by a similar road. At this stage it looks like Galway - Dublin will be continuous Dual Carraigeway/Motorway before the Cork route. Hello!

Infrastructure planning in this country is being decided by politicians and their electoral agenda. If it continues this way, then we will have spent billions of tax payers money on infrastructure that will be still short of what we need.

Victor

DerekP11 wrote:

The Athone-Moate-Mullingar line is a diamond, that hasn't been dug out.

Well, more X+T than a <>.

westtip

DerekP11 wrote:

The Athone-Moate-Mullingar line is a diamond, that hasn't been dug out. The SRR was warm to the idea, as an alternative route between east and west. However your Minister for Transport,Martin Cullen, poured cold water on the idea, unless westmeath CC started to "plan" development along the route! .

Moate, Killbegan, Rochfortbridge, are all exploding in the ever expanding growth of "greater dublin", not to mention the growth of Athlone itself, they would all be served by this route for drive and park from Moate station for commuting into Dublin, but of course this would take drivers off the pay as you go M4. I am just amazed the people of Westmeath haven't ben screaming from the rooftops about this one for the past five years. As a complete cynic I don't think this track will be re-opened as it will take revenue from the treasured PPP called the M4, of course the other argument is that it would link the two of the Midland gateways (Athlone Mullingar) - Gateways remember them in the spatial strategy - did they mention dublin was the black hole in the whole strategy?

Occidental

westtip wrote:

of course the other argument is that it would link the two of the Midland gateways (Athlone Mullingar) - Gateways remember them in the spatial strategy -

Well we do have two buses a day and it's not as if we're in Mayo.

spacetweek

westtip wrote:

As a complete cynic I don't think this track will be re-opened as it will take revenue from the treasured PPP called the M4, of course the other argument is that it would link the two of the Midland gateways (Athlone Mullingar) - Gateways remember them in the spatial strategy - did they mention dublin was the black hole in the whole strategy?

You must be a complete cynic then to think that there is a conspiracy theory linking NTR and CIE which prevents CIE reopening rail lines that jeopardise toll roads. :rolleyes: What's the link between the two companies?

maxheadroom

spacetweek wrote:

What's the link between the two companies?

Kildare Street

Victor

NTR don't have the M4 contract.

markf909

The West is under attack again from those nefarious bean counting eastern types!

Madam, - Your Editorial, "Off the Rails" (June 9th), has aroused a sense of anger, disappointment and puzzlement in me, and in many who have campaigned for and supported the Western Rail Corridor for over a quarter of a century. The reactionary message of your Editorial called for the switching of funding from the Government's investment in the project. This was even more anti-west of Ireland than the Dublin-led effort to stifle the development of Knock Airport in the 1980s, a campaign of which The Irish Times was a part.

On November 1st, 2005, as part of Transport 21, the Government announced its decision to reopen the Western Rail Corridor in two stages: from Ennis to Claremorris and from Claremorris to Collooney. This was a positive and historic decision in support of balanced regional development of our cross-radial rail infrastructure, serving the northwest, west and southwest of Ireland. That decision has received enormous support from every local government and voluntary community-based body along the line. It counters the almost exclusively "radial" thrust of our overland transport system in and out of Dublin, which has been choking rail and road travel for years.

The restoration of the WRC at a relatively reasonable capital cost (due to the fact that we succeeded in persuading the former minister for transport, Séamus Brennan, to preserve the line in the early 1990s) is totally justified on grounds of social, economic, environmental and balanced regional development.

It is calculated that this national asset is worth between €414 and €500 million. All that is required is to upgrade the line and relay the track to modern standards. The engineering staff of Iarnród Éireann have the proven ability to do the work ahead of time and under budget, if given the opportunity to do so.

It also enhances the Irish rail network by linking the main lines from Dublin to Sligo, Westport-Ballina, Galway, Ennis-Limerick, Cork, Waterford and Rosslare. Because Waterford is one of Ireland's most important seaports, this line is ideally suited for lift-on, lift-off freight cargo from the west and northwest.

The WRC links three international airports, Knock, Shannon and Cork, and will also serve the needs of tourists, commuters, and those attending regional and public services such as colleges and hospitals. Knock Shrine, with over 1.25 million pilgrims per annum is also served by the WRC. In addition to linking the cities of Sligo, Galway, Limerick and Cork, the line also passes through 18 growing communities. These are the facts, which clearly do not fit well with the ideological blind spots manifested in your Editorial. - Is mise, le fíormheas,

MÍCHEÁL Mac GRÉIL SJ, Joint Secretary, Western Inter-County Railway Committee, Loch Chluain, Cathair na Mart, Co Mhaigh Eo.

MarkoP11

The WRC links three international airports, Knock, Shannon and Cork, and will also serve the needs of tourists, commuters, and those attending regional and public services such as colleges and hospitals. Knock Shrine, with over 1.25 million pilgrims per annum is also served by the WRC.

Am I missing something or do we have three airports with rail links already? or is more complete bull?

markf909

Am I missing something or do we have three airports with rail links already?

Marko,
Why let the facts interfere with "balanced and fair" development? I mean take this line:

These are the facts, which clearly do not fit well with the ideological blind spots manifested in your Editorial.

I mean if the the good priest has stated the facts then surely they must be true?
Nothing contrived or ideological in his letter is there now :rolleyes:

MarkoP11

So

It also enhances the Irish rail network by linking the main lines from Dublin to Sligo, Westport-Ballina, Galway, Ennis-Limerick, Cork, Waterford and Rosslare. Because Waterford is one of Ireland's most important seaports, this line is ideally suited for lift-on, lift-off freight cargo from the west and northwest.

Container trains run twice weekly Ballina Waterford as do timber trains from Westport/Sligo and other places again to Waterford without the WRC, such trains don't even go within 30 miles of Dublin and the few that do don't go through Connolly station as incorrectly stated in the McCann report

So kudos to the first person to indentify who said this

Western Rail Corridor
A critical element of ensuring the success of the Western
Rail Corridor will be for local authorities to drive
appropriate residential and commercial development
along the route to create the critical mass of demand
needed for rail networks to prosper.

If the West on Track crew had sense they would be trying to sort this out but they are not since there would be a public backlash, give up your once off housing and you can have your railway, no one is saying you can't have the WRC what everyone wants is a line that will actually carry people its no use otherwise, the success of public transport can only be measured in passenger numbers.

markf909

So kudos to the first person to indentify who said this

Is it from the Strategic Rail Review?

MarkoP11

Nope

nollaig

Container trains run twice weekly Ballina Waterford as do timber trains from Westport/Sligo and other places again to Waterford without the WRC, such trains don't even go within 30 miles of Dublin and the few that do don't go through Connolly station as incorrectly stated in the McCann report

Really? What route do they take?

monument

Hmm...

the Irish Times wrote:

Madam,

It is disappointing to read Proinsias Mac Fhearsghusa's letter on June 13th opposing the Western Rail Corridor in order to argue the case for Navan.

In all my years of campaigning for rail development, I have never played one rail project off against another. It is legitimate to make a priority list of rail projects, and other people's lists may be different from mine. But it is unhelpful to oppose a project. The Western campaigners and Meath on Track have much common cause - they both believe that rail development is a good investment in the economy.

Why is Mr Fhearsghusa so willing to believe this strange statistic about the WRC carrying only 750 passengers a day? It looks suspect. I would like to add a further point about estimating how many passengers will use any new train services. Consider the many innovations in train services over the years - new routes such as Limerick-Ennis, or new stations, or trains at different times of the day, or commuter extensions (eg to Gorey). Often CIE or Irish Rail resisted the pressure to innovate, but when they did, the services thrived, sometimes to the point of crowding.

So the original method of estimation must have been flawed. I wonder how many transport consultants are still using such flawed methods. The success of the Limerick-Galway bus service also points to a large untapped demand.

In a route being promoted for reasons of regional development, the case rests on those additional journeys made because of the existence of a train service, The work to be done on the WRC is essential the same as has been done on other lines - renewing track and signalling, and refurbishing stations.

The WRC and the Meath lines have a lot in common. Both routes are amenable to be opened in stages, so the total cost can be spread over a number of years. Both were closed due to historical accidents and blunders, so that if any normality had prevailed, they would be operating and thriving today. So there is an element of restitution of a service wrongly taken from the people.

I am totally behind the idea of restoring the railway to Navan. But I can't back Mr Fhearsghusa's movement if his tactic is to oppose a normal restoration in another part of the country. - Yours, etc,

ALAN FRENCH,
Dun Laoghaire,
Co. Dublin.

MarkoP11

Really? What route do they take?

Ballina Waterford is via Athlone to Kildare (reverse) Athy Waterford
Sligo North Wall Dublin reverse Park Tunnel Athy Waterford, there are alternatives via Pearse if needed

Via the WRC would require a reversal at Limerick and a trip down the weight limited Limerick Waterford line. But it would be quicker via the existing network not to mention more cost effective since its making more intense use of existing infrastructure.

The McCann report incorrectly stated that freight from the West uses the Loop line in Dublin and used that as a postive for the WRC which is a total fabrication. Since IFI closed many years ago I've seen 1 freight train south of Connolly and only since there was a derailment in the freight yard in Church Rd

The WRC would be a great idea if the local councils got the act together it doesn't have to make a profit but it must actually be of real positive value, i.e. carry people, Limerick Galway won't be terribly quick but the commuter business should make it reasonably successful, beyond that its pointless unless the local councils finally wake up

nollaig

Via the WRC would require a reversal at Limerick and a trip down the weight limited Limerick Waterford line. But it would be quicker via the existing network not to mention more cost effective since its making more intense use of existing infrastructure.

Yeah, But would it be more cost effectiive after it has been set-up, after the initial costs?

Transport21 Fan

Just following up from Nollaig's point about cost effective and the WRC in terms of the junction at Atherny just being reinstated as is which is what WoT want.

The WRC beng "Cost effective" when weighed up against what? A efficient rail service to Tuam and Limerick direct via Oranmore which will carry thousands of commuters and inter-city travellers, or cost effective in terms of standing in the rain Athenry watching locomotives reversing and running around a rake of coaches because it provides that old world railway experience you just can't find in the UK anymore and Irish tax payers to pay for all this?

Either we do it right here in the West of Ireland or we spend half a billion recreating a living 19th century railway museum which will fail in terms of providing a social and economic benefit. This is the choice we are now facing.

If T21 is to mean anything in terms of providing modern rail transport it has to grade seperate the WRC as much as possible and take out any archaic idiosyncratic train movements.

I have been thinking about this a lot and come to the conclusion that Athenry really has to be sorted out, and the line from Gort at least reversed to face towards Galway. Tuam is a whole other can of worms as the station sits in the middle of the town in a good central location, but it passes over several level crossing on busy streets to get to Claremorris. So you are either talking an elevated station at Tuam or relacate the station to the Galway end of the town were most of the new populaton is and there would be only one elevated road bridge over the N17 in order to get to Claremorris if that's the eventually plan.

There is a business group already highlighting this very idea to the Government. So hopefully the chance of a decent WRC which might carry large numbers of passengers and provide a real service to the West is finally on the cards.

I would also ask that anybody who agrees with this approach to write to the national media and poltical representatives highlighting the possibilites of a real Western Rail Corridor and not a collection of reopened 19th century branch lines and tramways. It's actually a very exciting idea to develop rail transport inthe West of Ireland as it makes good sense and sound international best practice.

Transport21 Fan

Funny thing is that I don't recall Alan French writing letters to the Irish Times when West on Track put signs up all over the West of Ireland with LUAS FOR DUBLIN, NOTHING FOR THE WEST on them, nor do I recall him expressing his disapointment when on TV3 News a West on Track person in the presence of Fr Micheal McGreil exclaimed "they are spending billions and billion in Dublin and we get noithing!" - Look at the WoT site, it is a monument to this kind of playing one against the other approach. Endless press releases about the cost of Drogheda By-Passes and x-miles of Metro and how the WRC is better value. Where was Mr French then?

Playing one rail project off aginst another is a very important aspect of rail lobbying - simply cannot support every rail reopening or project. This suggests a total lack of objective thinking on the matter.

This playing rail projects off against one another approach is common in every other aspect of life so why not rail projects as well? I really do not see where Alan French in coming on this one. If a campaign to reopen the Lough Swilly Railway up the Inishown Penninsula was in danger of swallowing up funds to develop a light rail system for Cork City are the commuters of Cork expected to shut up and accept it because there is some unwritten rule that you do not play one rail project off against another?

Gimmie a break.:rolleyes:

nollaig

Tuam is a whole other can of worms as the station sits in the middle of the town in a good central location, but it passes over several level crossing on busy streets to get to Claremorris.

I think 1 busy street in Tuam, possible 2 if you include the N17 on the Galway Rd. Side of the mart?? IS this not right? I'm pretty damn sure that there is just those through the town.

Transport21 Fan

nollaig wrote:

I think 1 busy street in Tuam, possible 2 if you include the N17 on the Galway Rd. Side of the mart?? IS this not right? I'm pretty damn sure that there is just those through the town.

There is one right beyond the station and then a couple more past the old farmers co-op of which one is a very busy bypass. A train leaving or arriving in Tuam from Claremorris would shut down the towns entire road network. At rush hour this would be a disaster as Tuam already have woeful congestion even without the railway. 3 trains a day will not solve the congstion in Tuam so it's a Catch 22 situation. Do Oranmore to Tuam correctly or reopen the WRC as it was in Victorian times for a rubbish service.

The location of Tuam station is superb in terms of being central to the community, only if the WRC is not being extended to Claremorris as this is where it's suitability for modern rail transport falls down. If the railway was only reopened as far as Tuam it would be perfect. The road outside would make a super bus interchange location as well.

The problem is going from Tuam to Claremorris. Elevating the rail line as it passes through Tuam or building a new station on the Galway side is the only rela answer if the WRC is to provide decent rail services north of Tuam.

This is assuming that common sense prvails and Athenry as a junction is completly done away with an Oranmore becomes the new rail hub with double tracking into Galway city.

Now that's serious rail investment for the West which will do the business. If fact I am amazed how you who constantly expresses that the WRC should be opened as a vital passenger rail line, does not see how important grade seperation is.

The only people who think reopening the WRC as it was with all the level crossings and idiosyncratic train movements do not care about how the WRC works from a customer point of view, only how good the photos will look on IRN or have dreams of Westrail heritage locomotives running up and down the WRC.

Speaking of Westrail Heritage Locomotive railfan trips up and down the WRC. Are they still based at Tuam engine shed and do any of their people have connections to WestonTrack?

dowlingm

T21fan

re: LUAS FOR DUBLIN

It's called "Profitable LUAS" these days