Western Rail Corridor

Transport21 Fan

I am sure that the writer of this artilce would agree with the Oranmore hub idea baing the only way to do it if the West is to get a modern rail network.

Rail attack brings sense of déjá vu
By: James Laffey

Western People
Tuesday, June 13, 2006

SOME things never change. Last week this column wrote about RTE’s series of programmes on the astounding transformation of Ireland - both economically and socially - in the twenty years since 1986. But one aspect of Irish society that has not changed is the begrudging and covetous attitude that exists in Dublin when it comes to western development. The last seven days tells their own story.
Readers of the Irish Times will be aware that last Wednesday the newspaper published the private deliberations of a working group that was established in 2004 to investigate the viability of a re-opened Western Rail Corridor. The findings of the working group and the Railway Procurement Agency were typically shortsighted.
Apparently, there is no “critical” population mass to sustain the Western Rail Corridor, which will need an annual subvention of €10 million if it is to remain operational. In addition, the cost of re-opening the defunct rail corridor will amount to a total of €365.7 million, with the section from Claremorris to Collooney described as “extremely expensive” to restore. In fact, it would be “very difficult” to justify the restoration of the line, according to Pat McCann, the chairman of the working group.
The upshot of the Irish Times story, which was penned by the newspaper’s Environment Editor, Frank McDonald, was that the Government was preparing to embark on a costly infrastructural project that would have minimal benefits for the people of the West. The newspaper continued its theme in an editorial on Friday when it stated that the Government should “stop trying to fool the people of the West” and tell them bluntly that the re-opening of the Western Rail Corridor would not be viable for the foreseeable future.
This was classic Dublin 4 balderdash; replete with the infuriating condescension that is so often employed by those who want to deprive the people of the West of Ireland of their basic entitlements. One could almost imagine the denizens of Ballsbridge and Donnybrook nodding their heads sagely as they discussed what should be done with those pesky peasants in the West who have got above their station by demanding their own rail-line, if you don’t mind!
But, fear not, the Irish Times has a solution. According to the editorial writer, the money that has been earmarked for the Western Rail Corridor should instead be spent on ‘proper’ infrastructure in the West: new-fangled concepts like roads, education, broadband and even some high voltage electricity for industry!
Isn’t that just fantastic? The good people of Dublin - as represented by the Irish Times editorial writer - want to give the citizens of the West a few new roads to drive on and a couple of modern schools in which to educate our children. Aren’t they the dacent folk! Please remind me to doff my cap to the good burghers of Donnybrook and Ballsbridge when they are visiting their holiday homes in Mayo in the coming months. They really are too kind to us unenlightened peasants of the West who should apologise profusely for our occasional delusions of grandeur. Who are we to know anything about rail transport or the possible viability of our own western rail corridor?
Aren’t we the same people who built an airport on the top of a bog!
And, thus, I come to the kernel of my dissertation on the Western Rail Corridor. If ever one wanted evidence that Dublin’s attitude to the west of Ireland has changed not a whit in the last twenty years it was to be found in the pages of the Irish Times last week. This was Knock Airport all over again. The same cynicism, the same lack of vision, the same petty begrudgery.
I would hazard a guess that if one were to source a copy of the Irish Times from 1986 the same sort of nonsense would be found on its pages in relation to Knock Airport.
What the cynics failed to understand in 1986 - and what the Irish Times has failed to understand in 2006 - is that industries can change dramatically in the space of twenty years. Take the aviation industry as an example. Twenty years ago, flying was not a matter of choice, it was a matter of necessity. Very few people could afford sun holidays and the notion of a weekend in London or Manchester was off the radar altogether.
There were two primary - and inter-connecting - reasons for the aversion to flying. One was the prohibitive cost of air flights and the other was the lack of money in the Irish economy. The Celtic Tiger was to have an enormously positive impact on the aviation industry in this country but the arrival of low-cost flights was to be the telling factor in the success of the aviation industry. In less than a decade, flying became a populist activity, no longer the preserve of the elite in society. And, thus, the success of Knock Airport was born. A facility that had been ridiculed as a “white elephant” and the “ultimate example of Government profligacy” suddenly became a key infrastructural cog in the West of Ireland.
It is highly ironic that only two weeks ago the Western People published a supplement on Ireland West Airport Knock which included excerpts from the autobiography of former Fine Gael Minister, Barry Desmond, who was one of the severest critics of the airport project. In his book, Mr Desmond claimed it would have made a lot more sense to use the £10m that had been “frittered away” on the airport for a “vastly improved road network to and from the West”. Does that sound eerily familiar? Would it even be possible that Barry Desmond penned last week’s editorial in the Irish Times!
There are some remarkable parallels between the Western Rail Corridor and Ireland West Airport Knock. The rail industry in Ireland in 2006 is as inefficient and unambitious as the aviation industry of the mid-1980s.
Iarnrod Eireann is the Aer Lingus of the 21st century: a semi-state monopoly that has been carefully cosseted by politicians and civil servants since the foundation of the State. It is singularly one of the most ineffective and uninspiring rail companies in the developed world and anyone who has ever had the misfortune to take a train from the West to Dublin will vouch for that.
It is interesting to note that most of the findings of the working group on the Western Rail Corridor were based on figures provided by Iarnrod Eireann, which showed that the re-opened rail-link would attract as little as 750 passengers per day, thus requiring annual subvention of between •5 million and •10 million. It doesn’t take a genius to read between the lines: Iarnrod Eireann doesn’t want to re-open the Western Rail Corridor.
It’s high time the Government took on the vested interests in Iarnrod Eireann and it’s high time newspapers like the Irish Times saw the bigger picture when it comes to rail transport. Ireland needs a reliable, efficient and consumer-friendly rail network if it is to have any hope of developing its economy in the 21st century. Iarnrod Eireann - in its current monopolistic form - will not deliver such a network. It is Iarnrod Eireann - and not the Western Rail Corridor - that needs a radical reappraisal. And let no-one - not even the esteemed Irish Times - tell you otherwise.

nollaig

There is one right beyond the station and then a couple more past the old farmers co-op of which one is a very busy bypass. A train leaving or arriving in Tuam from Claremorris would shut down the towns entire road network. At rush hour this would be a disaster as Tuam already have woeful congestion even without the railway. 3 trains a day will not solve the congstion in Tuam so it's a Catch 22 situation. Do Oranmore to Tuam correctly or reopen the WRC as it was in Victorian times for a rubbish service.

Where is the old farmers co-op? I am trying to think of other level crossings but all I can think of is the one right beside the station and the one that crosses the N17 beside Corrib Oil. I cant think of any more Maybe, my mind has gone blank:)

I agree though that the level crossing beside the station would be a disaster if they didnt do anything with it. Since they changed Dublin Rd, you have a lot of traffic heading that way now.

markf909

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I am sure that the writer of this artilce would agree with the Oranmore hub idea baing the only way to do it if the West is to get a modern rail network.

That article is hilarious. I love the inverse snobbery towards D4. Portraying any reader of the Irish Times who agrees with Frank McDonald's original article as a bourgeois oppressor of the ordinary people in the west.

Transport21 Fan

nollaig wrote:

Where is the old farmers co-op?

across the road from the station, there was a sugar beet factory at one time too there. Well at least I was told it was once a farmers co-op, but it might have been something else, but essentially it's the brownfield site just north of the station. It would be prime development land if the commuter rail link (proper and direct, not the Athenry shuffle) went ahead.

nollaig wrote:

I am trying to think of other level crossings but all I can think of is the one right beside the station and the one that crosses the N17 beside Corrib Oil. I cant think of any more Maybe, my mind has gone blank:)

There is the old N17 on about a half of a mile further north and then some new houses and one again past that. Then the countryside starts again.

nollaig wrote:

I agree though that the level crossing beside the station would be a disaster if they didnt do anything with it. Since they changed Dublin Rd, you have a lot of traffic heading that way now.

I suspect that putting the line on eh "stilts" on the approach to Tuam would do the trick nicely and future proof any extention to Claremorris and beyond if that ever happens. Why not, if we are going to include this line in T21 then let's do it right for now and future. The taxpayers and commuters of the West of Ireland deserve no less that a meaningful rail infrastructur which will do the business.

My objection to the Western Rail Corridor was always the desire to reinstate the 19th Century infrastruture at massive cost for no real benefit in terms of addressing modern travel by rail.

I was actually behind it till I read the 2003 Costings Report which was nothing more than a trainspotters manifesto being passed off as a viable working plan for the rail development in the West of Ireland. I was simply shocked at how bonkers it was, and all these unnamed "experts" in the UK and Ireland who compilied it were so lost in their own delusions of photographing shunting movements at Athenry and calling it Regional Development, it was increible. To this day these "experts" have never been named and their so called consultancy formed the basis of a half a billion Euro of taxpayers money being spent on what was essentially a railway museum of little use to modern rail travellers.

If WoT in their original costings report from 2003 had of proposed a proper rebuild with grade seperations coupled with LUTS strategies for Mayo, Galway, Clare and Sligo, I. and I suspect many others would have said fair enough and let's do it. But sadly we know what happened and it's the people of the West who are really being duped by this carry on and need to rush this project out without any proper analysis.

monument

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Gimmie a break.:rolleyes:

I can’t speak for Mr French, but I’ll give you a break will when you get realistic about how most matters of public transport and infrastructure talked about on these boards are controlled by the government.

Could you possibly be arguing that the WRC is taking money away from rail projects in Meath? (That is rather then taking funds from other projects in the areas surrounding the WRC, like roads etc – which is the more likely situation with our type government)

Transport21 Fan wrote:

If WoT in their original costings report from 2003 had of proposed a proper rebuild with grade seperations coupled with LUTS strategies for Mayo, Galway, Clare and Sligo, I. and I suspect many others would have said fair enough and let's do it. But sadly we know what happened and it's the people of the West who are really being duped by this carry on and need to rush this project out without any proper analysis.

Now that’s the kind of thing I can agree with.

markf909 wrote:

That article is hilarious. I love the inverse snobbery towards D4. Portraying any reader of the Irish Times who agrees with Frank McDonald's original article as a bourgeois oppressor of the ordinary people in the west.

Whatever ever about the first articles in the Irish Times, what the hell did you expect after the tone of the editorial?

dowlingm wrote:

It's called "Profitable LUAS" these days

And remember that’s the profitable, sometimes overcrowded, Luas that (according to the RPA) has higher then expected usage outside peak times, the same project when at planning stages we were told of the horrors that such rail transport wouldn’t work in Dublin because of lack of density

Transport21 Fan

monument wrote:

I can’t speak for Mr French, but I’ll give you a break will when you get realistic about how most matters of public transport and infrastructure talked about on these boards are controlled by the government.

I think in general I am.

monument wrote:

Could you possibly be arguing that the WRC is taking money away from rail projects in Meath? (That is rather then taking funds from other projects in the areas surrounding the WRC, like roads etc – which is the more likely situation with our type government)

Contray to some people's thinking, railways in Ireland are not in competition with the motorway/roads programme. A good road/motorway network will cream rail transport in every example with the exception of the M50 (which is the cause of the gridlock on all the motorways leading into the capital) and we have Metro West to deal with that.

Rail is actually in competition with bus based public transport and the only way that rail can shine when compared to the bus is when rail carries loads more people at faster speeds than road/bus transport. The rail line to Navan will achieve this IN SPADES, the WRC as currently planned won't. It's as simple as that. How is this being unrealistic?

Navan will make rail transport in Ireland look good to the politicians, journalists and business leaders (like the Luas and DART does, and this leads to expansion and investment). The WRC concept on the other hand is based on some antiquated notion that rail transport investment in Ireland is a form of social welfare.

This is the trust of both the paraniod cleric's and Mr French's letter to the Times. That rail investment is a form of public transport dole. We need to get away form this mindset and create and develop highly-successful railways on this island. A railways social welfare mentality as epitomised by the WoT envisigned Sligo-Limerick 3 trains a day, WRC just won't deliver this.

I believe that railways in Ireland have a fantastic future and can stand on their own feet as the backbone of our national public transport system, but not in terms of inter-regional rail (which is a complete failure in this country) or even most Inter-City services, but in terms of high-capacity commuting.

This is were rail transport can really prove itself as a winnner and finally esacape the social welfare image it has always had in this county, and which is what led to the lack of investment over the past decades. People like Alan French and Fr MacGrieal from their letters to the Times seem to be still lost in this "Starving Black Babies in Africa" concept of rail transport investment that only by handouts and Governmental benevolence can railways survive in Ireland.

I do not want to see rail transport in this country being looked upon as some form of social welfare as it gives rail transport a bad name and prevents futher investment. The WRC is the very zenith of this rail welfare investment culture and it's not good for the image of rail transport.

I want to see a day when right wing economists are demanding rail investment in Ireland and not priest's shaking the T21 poorbox. This way we might avoid the Harcourt Street closings from now on, or the 1987 "no more investment in Rail" speeches of the future. The only way we'll get this is by prioritising the high-capacity commuter rail lines to the top of the T21 food chain.

Personally, the more I read that letter from MacGrail to the Times and the Dev-era style "pounding the pulpit" nature of it, I find it sickening an offensive. The McCann Report was doctored for political ends to make the WRC look far, far, far better than it was, and to keep the taxpayers of this country from finding what an albatross they would be supporting - this is cold reality of the matter and there is no escaping this. The Times reported the facts as they were. As yet, not one single pro-WRC spokespeson has addressed this absolutely damning reality surrounding the McCann Report and what it's real conculsion were.

Tough, if the preist can't deal with it. Ireland is no longer under the yoke of the Papal Nuncio and the IT is perfectly entitiled to print what they wish and besides, they backed-up their opinion with facts and the Freedom of Information Act and all the 'pro-WRC at any cost' crowd have done since then in rebuttle is to hoist their on-tap, fantasy victim complexes futher up the flagpole.

Sorry, but if that is how we are to develop rail transport in Ireland then railways are truly knackered in this country.

Anways, this all is naval gazing as the whole Grand Trunk Social Justice Route WRC gig was dealth a fatal blow by the Irish Times. The truth always comes out and spoofers always get exposed. Frank McDonald using the Freedom of Information act proved that Sligo-Limerick WRC really was an unviable joke and that Pat McCann agreed and his honest and direct statements were removed from the final draft because it was not the right kind of truth some wanted to hear. Frankly, the people behind the doctoring of the McCann Report are no better than the Charlie Haughey's, screwing the taxpayers by hiding the realities of a Euro 10 million PA operating subsidy from us all for their own crass political gains.

but don't just take his word for it, as we have been here before:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1887786&postcount=7

P11 Comms
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Join Date: Feb 2004
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The Athlone-Mullingar line is the key to developing seriously major rail services into the West of Ireland not just the Midlands.

As for the Western Rail Corridor, the West of Ireland already has the highest concentration of operating pasenger rail lines in the country and the west of Ireland has more airports per population than anywhere else in Europe.

The Western Rail Corridor is a joke from Sligo to Limerick for three trains a day filled with grannies on free travel passes to refill their holy water bottles at Knock and imaginary railfeight that does not exsist.

Now Galway to Limerick via Ennis... That's a "Western Rail Corridor" worth talking about about. 100,000 at one end and 200,000 at the other and 30,000 in the middle over a realitively short distance. That's some serious potenial for the future.
Last edited by P11 Comms : 03-09-2004 at 00:21.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1887786&postcount=7

See - the truth will always come out in the end.

corktina

Tuam: the solution to the WRC causing massive road delays in Tuam is surely a bypass which eliminates any road/rail conflicts....and failing that, surely modern systems would minimise the delays at crossings anyway á lá Luas....

nollaig

across the road from the station, there was a sugar beet factory at one time too there. Well at least I was told it was once a farmers co-op, but it might have been something else, but essentially it's the brownfield site just north of the station. It would be prime development land if the commuter rail link (proper and direct, not the Athenry shuffle) went ahead.

Still have no idea where you are talking about and I know Tuam pretty damn well. Where is this busy by-pass??? Are you talking about Purcell/Stockwell road???

There is the old N17 on about a half of a mile further north and then some new houses and one again past that. Then the countryside starts again.

This is confusing me even more, where the hell is this?

markf909

A good letter in Todays Times,

Madam, - I wish to respond to the criticism of the article by Frank McDonald and of your Editorial which raised the issue of the sustainability of the proposed Western Rail Corridor.

Frank McDonald has been criticised by Lisa McAllister of the Western Development Commission and by Fr Mícheál McGréil. Ms McAllister and Fr McGréil, however, were both unable to address the central issue which is the viability of the railway. Nobody has yet made a convincing business case for the reopening of the line.

I walked the entire rail line between Collooney and Claremorris in the mid-1990s while researching its potential use as a linear park. What is immediately obvious is that there is a level crossing every two miles. This would mean either significant additional costs or speed restrictions. The line also runs to Athenry, so a train switch would be needed if one were travelling to Galway. This would mean that a train journey from Sligo to Galway would take between three and four hours, minimum.

Both Bus Éireann and Feda O'Donnell operate excellent bus services between Sligo and Galway.

Feda O'Donnell's buses take two hours for the trip and charge €10.

Why would anybody in his/her right mind choose to travel from Sligo to Galway by train when they could get there in almost half the time by travelling by bus?

My belief is that Frank McDonald, who is very pro-rail, is correct in his questioning the need for the Western Rail Corridor.

He is certainly correct in asking that a solid business case be made before a decision is made to proceed with the project. - Yours, etc,

FELIM O'ROURKE, Lecturer in Economics, IT Sligo, Ballinode, Sligo.

paulm17781

markf909 wrote:

A good letter in Todays Times,

Nice to see some sense prevail. I'm sure he'll be burned as a heretic for this. :rolleyes:

markf909

paulm17781 wrote:

Nice to see some sense prevail. I'm sure he'll be burned as a heretic for this.

Absolutely, it nicely encapsulates my own view on the WRC.
I am completely in favour of rail and rail re-openings. My single bone of contention with the WRC is that is hasn't been evaluated in the same way as the Midleton and Navan projects.
You have Cork City Council developing the CASP, Cullen telling Meath Co. Co. to zone high density along Navan - Clonsilla but along the WRC the rail unfiendly bungalow blitz continues.

paulm17781

Markf909 - That is exactly my stance on it too.

corktina

contrary to what some think, Im in favour of rail expansion too.But there isnt much point pouring into a project that will be little used and a big burden on the public purse......A well-used rail link (such as Navan and Middleton hopefully) would be very worthwhile even if loss-making...

Victor

But Frank McDonald lives in Temple Bar (Dublin 2)!

DerekP11

Some timetable stats regarding the WRC.

In 1913, the trip from Limerick to Ennis took 61 minutes with 6 stops en route by steam train. (The line had been open since 1859.)

In 2006 it takes approx. 45 minutes with no stops with a DMU Railcar.(recently relaid) Work it out.

In 1913, Ennis to Athenry took 1 hour and 25 minutes serving all 5 stops. Athenry to Tuam took 39 minutes serving one stop. Tuam to Claremorris took 59 minutes serving 3 stops enroute. Claremorris to Colooney took a whooping 1 hour 55 minutes serving 7 stations along the way.

The journey times can be compared with the current Ennis - Limerick run and its previous timings. Note that the additional journey times from Athenry to Galway and from Collooney to Sligo have not been included.

I do know that posters here and on IRN have actually got the 1974 timetable which lists the timings for the passenger train that ran from Limerick to Claremorris and ultimately Ballina. If they're brave enough, maybe they'd like to post the 1976 timings, so we can compare them to 1913.. This would add some contemporary facts to the debate. The 1913 timings compare very well with the original 19th century timetable for the route and this is allowing for advancements in motive power. However the current Ennis - Limerick timings and the 1913 comparison tell the real tale of this hopeless route in terms of its role in a 21st century transport infrastructure. It doesn't matter what track you put on it or what type of rolling stock, it was built badly in the first place and its route is hoplessly out of touch with best practice for creating inter city route options.

To the chosen few, please put up the 1975 passenger timetable for the route and show the people here why it was ceased due to a £250,000 a year loss. I know CIE are a bunch of halfwits, but even this amount of money in the 70s was criminal.You couldn't really blame them.

Finally, when the passenger service ended on the WRC in '76, supporters went to Dublin and accused CIE of introducing new trains in the east at the expense of the west. I know my CIE history and I can safely assume that these morons were referring to the then 4 year old MK2s (supertrain) that were already in service on selected services to the west. The next "new train" introduced on the network were the MK3s/DARTs in1983/84. In 1976, no part of the rail network was decent. But that didn't stop the moaning anti east campaigners in the west having a go as usual.

Advice for pro WRC folks. Learn your rail history before you start into the victm complex routine. We've all suffered.

NOTE: I can back up all the points made with reference material.

westtip

spacetweek wrote:

You must be a complete cynic then to think that there is a conspiracy theory linking NTR and CIE which prevents CIE reopening rail lines that jeopardise toll roads. :rolleyes: What's the link between the two companies?

Thank you - yes I am a complete cynic, is it possible not to be a cynic living in Ireland these days? The link is one of political philosophy borrowed from M.Thatcher. They (the pro PPP government) run down the train service so everyone complains about it - and build up confidence in the private sector by bleating on that the only thing that works is PPPs (yeh right look at the M50 toll bridge -working well for whom), the whole point is being lost in this debate on rail development, by those who impose upon us that we should be trying to think that rail networks should commercially "wipe their faces", that is total bull****, the whole point about public sector transport is that it should move people efficiently and quickly - the measure of success of a rail system is how well it is run, not how much it makes. If an efficient railway loses moeny so what, it is moving people around the country who are making money and generating wealth in their activities for the good of the society we live in. You either think public transport is a service to help society get on with its living or you view it as a commercial activity which should as a I say "wipe its face" I am firmly in the first camp.

Transport21 Fan

This was classic Dublin 4 balderdash; replete with the infuriating condescension that is so often employed by those who want to deprive the people of the West of Ireland of their basic entitlements.

Does this basic entitlement include automatic level crossings on both ends of this front yard?

Photo of the Western Rail Corridor taken at Curry, Co. Sligo 15 minutes ago.

Transport21 Fan

above you can see more clearly were the eh. " vital inter-city" mainline approachs the front yard.

Completely bonkers isn't it.

SeanW

We must send a bunch of these pictures off to Martin C.

sameoldname

T21fan, thats the best thing I've ever seen!
Forget Cullen, send it to Wot. I wonder do the family living there support the re-opening?

markf909

Brilliant T21, now thats what you call preserving the alignment.;)

Diaspora

Before you all go culchie bashing bear in mind that an almost identical situation occured in relation to the once proposed Shangannah route at Shankhill where DLR Co Co granted permission in 2000 for a domestic extension that was directly in the path of the route as then envisaged as being a metro extension.

BTW good work T21 your image highlights the poor planning administered by particular County Councils although looking at the gate and lack of PVc windows the house doesn't look particularly new.

Was the car registered to Dublin or Galway?

DerekP11

Absolute class Thomas.

The one of many( but the best yet) photos that WOT didn't include on their web site.

So considering that Transport 21 is providing funds to the "fencing off" of this line, how the hell will they manage it? Will we see people unable to access their homes? I doubt it. Its so easy to make an "announcement" in Dublin castle based on the hidden truths and lies of various campaigners. While its funny, its also sickening. Examples of this are to be found all along the Claremorris - Collooney stretch of the "line".

I'll quote you Thomas.

"The truth will set you free"

But, while these examples demonstrate how the "Burma Road" is all but dead and has no support from County Councils, lets not forget that the rest of the WRC (that hasn't been subjected to wayward planning decisions) is still a line that has serious drawbacks in terms of operational capability.

In my earlier post I referenced the most recent timings that I had access to. Will the WOT campaign "deliver" a new rail service to the various stops that were mentioned? Adrahan? and the 7 others between Ennis and Claremorris? Perhaps some of these stops will be omitted due to "no demand" or included and subsequently add to the journey time. Its chicken and egg on this one. A "community" campaign should do as it says on the tin.

I can't wait for the next installment of this comedic masterpiece, as Ballybrophy - Limerick and Limerick - Waterford, rot further in the ground and still try to handle trains. And lets not forget that Navan is subjected to a further Scoping study, eventhough this was already done in 1999. Im looking at the report right now. As one half of the "double act" that dared to question the WRC, Im still laughing at how our politicians are mapping out this great rail network for us. Whoops! Sorry. I meant to say that they're mapping it out for themselves, in line with a time frame that allows them to get away with it. But the facts are in front of us if we search for them. Navan was promised in 1999 with a 5 year delivery. Then again in 2000 with a 10 year delivery. In 2005, that was pushed back by another 5 years leaving us with another 10 year delivery. The quick win option via Drogheda was rediculed by an IE representative due to the "Dept. of finance" not countenencing a spend on it, due to the eventual reopening of Navan - Clonsilla!

And some people have the cheek to say that the Navan reopening isn't in competition with the WRC? Wake up!

If Transport 21 is to be believed, then part of the WRC will be open (all nice and new) while "existing" operating rail lines like the Limerick - Ballybrophy - Waterford/Rosslare are in the throws of death and traffic chaos on the N3 from Navan is getting worse.

Maybe Im just in a different world, but this doesn't make any kind of sense to me.

Transport21 Fan

Diaspora wrote:

Before you all go culchie bashing

Nobody is "culchie bashing".

Massive hidden costs are an unescapable reality of the WRC, including maybe dozens of houses which will have to be purchased and demolished. countless numbers of roads will have to be lowered, embankments raised to deal with the 30 years of tarmac and home ownership, and for what?? 750 passengers a day when most of the buses on the route are half filled.

I am totally in favour of massive public transport investment in the West, but this victorian tramway buried a meter and half below roads and driveways being reopened is not it.

Victor

What if Meath gave the West a gift of the M3? You get on at Ennis, pay, go to Athenry, pay again and then you go on to Galway.

Ham'nd'egger

Diaspora wrote:

Before you all go culchie bashing bear in mind that an almost identical situation occured in relation to the once proposed Shangannah route at Shankhill where DLR Co Co granted permission in 2000 for a domestic extension that was directly in the path of the route as then envisaged as being a metro extension.

BTW good work T21 your image highlights the poor planning administered by particular County Councils although looking at the gate and lack of PVc windows the house doesn't look particularly new.

Was the car registered to Dublin or Galway?

This house was more than likely a gatehouse at some stage of it's life, hence it's being beside the track alignment. One can hardly blame WOT, Irish Rail etc for the householder spilling down a bit of tarmac to park a car on, especially if the line has been inactive since God knows when (And doubtless, this is done without an permission from Irish Rail or the local councils. I am sure that similar breaches exists on the Clonsilla Navan alignment as well; there was a few breaches of the Harcourt Street line when the Luas was relaid, so I believe.

Mind you, the way the Platform 11 goons are probably taking this picture, you may assume there is orphanages being ripped down for the bidding of WOT. :rolleyes:

dowlingm

Don't worry about it.

Fr. MacGreil will visit every householder on behalf of the Western Intercounty Railway Committee and tell them it's in the interest of the oppressed West that the train rolls through. They will of course burst into tears of joy and break out the bulldozers to tear up those pesky yards and roadways across the Burma Road. No CPOs or anything.


That's how it'll go, I'm sure of it.


I really am.


Honest.

paulm17781

Hamndegger wrote:

Mind you, the way the Platform 11 goons are probably taking this picture, you may assume there is orphanages being ripped down for the bidding of WOT. :rolleyes:

Curse those handsome devils!

We wouldn't be saying things like that. Our arguments are economically based, not victim / accusative based.

dowlingm

In the 50's Limerick-Sligo was timetabled at 5h20/5h45 once daily:

http://www.westontrack.com/history01.htm

One of my prized possessions is a copy of the CIE Passenger Train Timetable for Winter 1958/59, costing 4d (four pence in "old" money, that is). This publication, given to me by Jimmy O'Hara, a Swinford shopkeeper and CIE agent operating the local bus stop at the time, reveals that Swinford along with other towns on "The Burma Road" enjoyed a rail service consisting of one train each way every weekday. The "up" train originated in Sligo at 8.50 a.m. arriving in Limerick at 2.35 p.m., with the "down" train leaving Limerick at 3.15 p.m. and reaching Sligo at 8.35 p.m. Leisurely travel indeed and one can, perhaps, envisage prolonged stops at stations en route, reminiscent perhaps, of that memorable scene at "Castletown Station" (or Ballyglunin, to be precise) in the film "The Quiet Man"

I can't find reference to any later timetables.

DerekP11

Hamndegger wrote:

This house was more than likely a gatehouse at some stage of it's life, hence it's being beside the track alignment. One can hardly blame WOT, Irish Rail etc for the householder spilling down a bit of tarmac to park a car on, especially if the line has been inactive since God knows when (And doubtless, this is done without an permission from Irish Rail or the local councils. I am sure that similar breaches exists on the Clonsilla Navan alignment as well; there was a few breaches of the Harcourt Street line when the Luas was relaid, so I believe.

Mind you, the way the Platform 11 goons are probably taking this picture, you may assume there is orphanages being ripped down for the bidding of WOT. :rolleyes:

1. It was a gate house. I believe its either Drumbaun south or Broher level crossing. P11 have many pictures like this one.

2. Nobody has "blamed" WOT or even Irish Rail.

3. We do not know if the householder has planning permission from Sligo CC or if Irish Rail were consulted. This goes for all the other driveways over the line, including the many newer houses.

4. There are many "breaches" on the Clonsilla - Navan line, but none as serious as those on this section of the WRC. Furthermore, the Navan line was abandoned by CIE, track ripped up and the land sold off. In the early 1990s, CIE attempted to take up the track between Claremorris and Collooney and formerly abandon the section. A "campaigner" in the West of Ireland protested to the then Minister for Transport, Seamus Brennan,(yes him again) and the rotten track remained as nothing more than symbolism. At this point in time we can only assume that the alignment is still in CIE ownership. But this is looking like a very perverse arrangement and in complete contrast to the normal abandonment proceedure.

5. As for the Harcourt Street alignment that the Luas runs on....no breeches like those on the WRC existed. Beyond Sandyford there are many obstacles, such as sports grounds, gardens, extensions, Cherrywood Business park, a School, and a housing estate. While the alignment was protected to some degree by Dublin County Council from the 70s onwards, too much damage had been done. This made the DTO's Platform for change proposal for a metro to Shanganagh Junction along the Harcourt street alignment totally flawed and ill informed. They simply didn't go out and actually look at the site. (A bit like you Ham) Regardless of all this, the alignment had no track and was formally abandoned and sold off in parts.(Quite unlike the WRC)

6. In your eyes P11 may be Goons, but at least we do know what we're talking about in relation to the WRC. We actually left our "Dublin 4 enclaves" and had a look at it. We only deal in fact and don't get carried away just for the sake of it. So the Orphanages are safe.