Western Rail Corridor

Schuhart

In fairness, the WRC side of the debate seem to be simply reacting to criticisms by making claims that the project will be found to be useful, rather than addressing the actual points being made.

I’d feel a lot more open to their views if, for example, the Western Development Commission’s article specifically addressed the question of what benefit the rail line would bring, given that journey time will be slower than bus. It would also be useful to see some acknowledgement of the kinds of obstacle shown in the photo above, rather than baldly stating ‘the land is in public ownership and there are no planning issues’. Reading that article again, it really is an exercise in 'whatever you say, say nothing'.

It really does look like one of those situations where people adopt stances without properly thinking the thing through, and then feel they have to go on arguing their corner even when sense has clearly left the building.

Diaspora

DerekP11 wrote:

1.
5. As for the Harcourt Street alignment that the Luas runs on....no breeches like those on the WRC existed. Beyond Sandyford there are many obstacles, such as sports grounds, gardens, extensions, Cherrywood Business park, a School, and a housing estate. While the alignment was protected to some degree by Dublin County Council from the 70s onwards, too much damage had been done. This made the DTO's Platform for change proposal for a metro to Shanganagh Junction along the Harcourt street alignment totally flawed and ill informed. They simply didn't go out and actually look at the site.

I have a reasonable knowledge of the alignment and would list the following as obstacles between Sandyford & Shangannagh

1. Foxrock a back garden >> Entirely acquirable
2. Glenamuck Road a 1970's domestic extension it will be acquired
3. Cherrywood an office block alignment can go around
4. Shankill Station lease buyable
5. Shankill Timber yard lease buyable
6. Shankill domestic extension timberrrrrrrrr

They didn't go out on the line but relied on compliance with reservations in previous and current development plans to protect the alignment. I don't think any blame can be attributed to the authors of Platform

DerekP11

Diaspora wrote:

I have a reasonable knowledge of the alignment and would list the following as obstacles between Sandyford & Shangannagh

1. Foxrock a back garden >> Entirely acquirable
2. Glenamuck Road a 1970's domestic extension it will be acquired
3. Cherrywood an office block alignment can go around
4. Shankill Station lease buyable
5. Shankill Timber yard lease buyable
6. Shankill domestic extension timberrrrrrrrr

They didn't go out on the line but relied on compliance with reservations in previous and current development plans to protect the alignment. I don't think any blame can be attributed to the authors of Platform

Lets not get too off topic, but I'll address some of your points.

1. You were with me when we surveyed the alignment.

2. You forgot the housing estate in Shankill towards Shanganagh junction.

3. To "go around" Cherrywood office blocks will require a new crossing of Brides Glen. The RPA are already talking about this.(in relation to Bray/Fassaroe Luas extension) Proper planning would have maintained a right of way to the original crossing which is similar to the 9 arches in Milltown. Poor planning = increased costs for reopening.

4. I didn't blame the DTO for anything. I merely pointed out the simple fact, that they developed a document without prior understanding of what things were like "on the ground". If we had less of this and more field work and real understanding of how things are, then we wouldn't even be discussing the certain section of the WRC.

Planners, ideologists, beaurocrats and some campaigners spend too much time, looking at maps, sitting in the office or local halls, trying to outline a grand plan on certain projects without having a clue as to how things really are. Members of P11 take the time, at their own expense, to actually go out and look.

Diaspora

DerekP11 wrote:

2. You forgot the housing estate in Shankill towards Shanganagh junction.

3. To "go around" Cherrywood office blocks will require a new crossing of Brides Glen. The RPA are already talking about this.(in relation to Bray/Fassaroe Luas extension) Proper planning would have maintained a right of way to the original crossing which is similar to the 9 arches in Milltown. Poor planning = increased costs for reopening.

The housing estate was pretty minor a liitle disturbance money but pretty small in the greater scheme of things

Cherrywood was quite bizarre but I think that it would be doable to retain the original bridge at Brides Glen; the alternative is frightening because not only do you have to build a new route but the viaduct as a protected structure has to be maintained without it generating any benefit other than its astetic and heritage credentials.

BTW

In relation to the WRC I think a full survey of the route should be compiled on a seperate thread with each plot marked out and accounted for where possible or at least a definitive catalogue of exactly how many obstructions we are dealing with.

MarkoP11

The Claremorris Collooney line while closed officially 3/11/1975 and was abandoned it is still owned by CIE thus its not possible legally to have a building or road sitting on it. I have seen plenty of photographs. The local planning authorities should have copped this after all you do need to own the land (or have the explict permission of the owner in legal form) to build on it

Some people deny the facts that these photographs are real, they cry foul of information released under FoI, this is real its not falsified its the truth and some people can't accept this.

The fundamental problem with the WRC is the planning strategy (Or should I say the total lack of one) means there won't be the population in the towns along the line to make it work that combined with slow journey times mean its in trouble. If a proper land use plan was in place to support the line I don't think there would be anyone complaining

If this goes pear shaped as it looks like it will, it will severely negatively impact against all other railway investment as confidence to fund other superior proposals will not be there combined with the fact the DoF will have to stump up the cash to keep ghost trains running

Ham'nd'egger

DerekP11 wrote:

1. It was a gate house. I believe its either Drumbaun south or Broher level crossing. P11 have many pictures like this one.

2. Nobody has "blamed" WOT or even Irish Rail.

3. We do not know if the householder has planning permission from Sligo CC or if Irish Rail were consulted. This goes for all the other driveways over the line, including the many newer houses.

4. There are many "breaches" on the Clonsilla - Navan line, but none as serious as those on this section of the WRC. Furthermore, the Navan line was abandoned by CIE, track ripped up and the land sold off. In the early 1990s, CIE attempted to take up the track between Claremorris and Collooney and formerly abandon the section. A "campaigner" in the West of Ireland protested to the then Minister for Transport, Seamus Brennan,(yes him again) and the rotten track remained as nothing more than symbolism. At this point in time we can only assume that the alignment is still in CIE ownership. But this is looking like a very perverse arrangement and in complete contrast to the normal abandonment proceedure.

5. As for the Harcourt Street alignment that the Luas runs on....no breeches like those on the WRC existed. Beyond Sandyford there are many obstacles, such as sports grounds, gardens, extensions, Cherrywood Business park, a School, and a housing estate. While the alignment was protected to some degree by Dublin County Council from the 70s onwards, too much damage had been done. This made the DTO's Platform for change proposal for a metro to Shanganagh Junction along the Harcourt street alignment totally flawed and ill informed. They simply didn't go out and actually look at the site. (A bit like you Ham) Regardless of all this, the alignment had no track and was formally abandoned and sold off in parts.(Quite unlike the WRC)

6. In your eyes P11 may be Goons, but at least we do know what we're talking about in relation to the WRC. We actually left our "Dublin 4 enclaves" and had a look at it. We only deal in fact and don't get carried away just for the sake of it. So the Orphanages are safe.

Very quickly, let me get back on one or two points here.

1+3) I am quite sure there is a hell of a lot of similar gatehouse such as this one. Any numerical amount you can mention, as a matter of interest? As a point of order, while I don't like the fact that there is anything on the trackbed, nethertheless I would say that it may well be worthwhile seeing do any of these sites have planning permission? Somehow I reckon, they won't, simply because most of the householders have probably felt, no railway, no trains, no problem. Maybe a Train Users Group (Such as Platform 11 or WOT) should bring this to the attention of the relevant authorities as a breach of planning permissons if it is indeed illegal.

2) I am not sure if anyone did or didn't blame any group (Yet lol) but I don't think using these gardens as ammunition or baiting towards the WRT is a good idea.

4) Many breaches are all over the land, we can all agree on that. One thing on the Cavan Leitrim line or Clifden Galway, but any line with a hope of opening by IR is a shame. That said, if a line is closed, then there has to be an assumption that the line will not be re-opened and that the land will be used for other means. Look at Omagh, a thriving station in the 40's, now a shopping centre and by pass. Clones, the Crewe of Ulster AKA St. Tiernan's Park GAA ground. Capwell and Broadstone, now bus garages. If it were up to you and me, the lines would possibly be open still, fact is they are closed and the sites are reused, and a few bob made. Most likely, the only economic use of these sites in years

5) It shoule be remembered that the land was protected on the DSER route only after re-use was mooted in the early 70's, and certainly if it had have been a route to Bray that was intended, then the whole bed would be intact to a much greater extent. I don't know what is on the old trackbed, but that is what you do, fair play to you, I do other things with my time.

6) Fact you may deal with, but to the many who support WOT, at times you come over as being overly envious of them. Do you not support the renewal of railway in Ireland, or is it a more selective choosing of priority, as that is how some do appraise P11, especially WOT fans. I appreciate that Dublin projects move more people, but there is more than Navan in need of railways, even if there is less people to use them.

DerekP11

Hamndegger wrote:

6) Fact you may deal with, but to the many who support WOT, at times you come over as being overly envious of them. Do you not support the renewal of railway in Ireland, or is it a more selective choosing of priority, as that is how some do appraise P11, especially WOT fans. I appreciate that Dublin projects move more people, but there is more than Navan in need of railways, even if there is less people to use them.

Platform 11 supports the promotion of issues that effect rail users on the operating system and the implementation of reopenings where rail can be demonstrated to work to the best of its ability.

The WRC in its proposed guise will not offer any positive additions to the development of railways in this country.

Platform 11 is in no way envious of WOT and its campaign. We are currently involved in more work to bring benefits to rail users in the West of Ireland, than WOT will ever be. Furthermore, we are about more than Navan, when it comes to reopenings. At this point in time we are working on projects that involve a Limerick Commuter service, embracing Nenagh and areas south of the city on disused lines and the development of the Limerick Junction - Waterford line.

In consideration of all this, we still reserve our right to stand over our original assertion that the WRC is not a priority within the overall context of infrastructural projects and is a threat to the implementation of more important rail projects such as Navan. Furthermore our current Government have chosen to ignore the improvement of certain existing lines and the development of commuter services in other areas such as Ballymoate - Sligo, Limerick city and Waterford - New Ross. One could also add to this the Mullingar - Athlone line. Westmeath was told by the Minister for Transport that they would have to plan development along the route before it could get consideration. Meath CC have been told to raise half the cost of the Navan - Clonsilla reopening through levies. Cork planned for nearly 20 years to justify the Midleton reopening. None of this criteria has been applied to the WRC.

If you are just a casual observer and supporter of the WRC, then fair enough, I could excuse your ignorance of the bigger picture. However, if you are a lover of railways and have a genuine interest in the development of rail transport in Ireland, then your support for the WRC needs to be questioned. Theres more to improving Irelands rail network than the WRC. That said, you're entitled to your opinion. And so are P11.

Ham'nd'egger

While I am in no way a hardened campaigner, willing to trug up and down delapadated track beds like P11 members wish to do, that does not essentially mean that you or I or any other user on this board are more or less wanting railway investment in Ireland.

What is true is that the WRC was used by IR as late as in in the 90's (Timber trains were routed through it initially), and as such, it has stragegic use in the rail network.

What is true is that IR saw fit to run trains to Ennis, which is on the WRC.

What is true is that there is many international access points on the WRC that can argue a need to a decent rail service; Shannon Airport, Knock, Limerick and Foynes port, and they can easily be linked to Mayo, Sligo, Roscommon and Leitrim without needing the Burma Road, and who knows, it may well be done as well.

We are all too well aware that one of the problems with our rail network is that much of our lines are fragmented; the WRC links up 4 of our mainlines witout having to resort to running to Portarlington as everything has to at the minute. It will free up a hell of a lot of tracktime if trains can be run without blocking every train to the south as is the case curently. If it can carry extra passenger traffic, brilliant! If it can take oil trains, nice one. Ballast trains, cement, oil, Zinc, or God knows what else, that is a lot of traffic freed up off the track. Which, with one hour Dublin Cork and additional services south, will make a lot of difference.

And don't forget, with the spread of Urbania out of Dublin and the new Western carriageway (Did Ennis really need a motorway to by pass it, I ask you? ), there is surely some central government plan to do something massive in the west that warrants such a plan as the WRT. A nice natural harbour sitting in Limerick, Galway and Sligo; gas and oil destined to be drilled off the west just as the world runs short of crude. A deluge of government office leaving Dublin in due course. There is a far bigger picture than a few votes in P. Flynn's backyard to all of this plan, you know.
Sure, Navan is vital, but only to the Dubs and the locals in the scheme of things. There is a few bigger fish to fry before then, but it will be done.

And lest you doubt me on this, there has been a few defined plans with all of this info in Kingsbridge for a long long time, lads.

Navan Junction

Hamndegger wrote:

Sure, Navan is vital, but only to the Dubs and the locals in the scheme of things. There is a few bigger fish to fry before then, but it will be done.

Jesus, how big does a fish have to be before it is fried?

You know, there are parents missing out on raising their children in Meath. It is creating social problems. The situation for many people in Meath is desperate, Kells even more so. The most vulnerable people in Irish society are being pushed into longer commute times all the time because of inability to afford houses where they grew up.

So divorced from family support in many cases, and with massive mortgages and with long commute times, you think this is all ok? Listen, Navan was promised for 2004. Then it was pushed back to 2010. Now it is 2015.

Navan up until 5-6 years ago WAS only an hour from Dublin. It isn't anymore. I could travel to Galway quicker on some days.

Navan Junction

Hamndegger wrote:

Sure, Navan is vital, but only to the Dubs and the locals

Locals - you mean people in Meath?

By the way, Navan will benefit Dublin, Meath, Cavan and traffic coming from as far away as Enniskilen and Donegal through reduced volumes on the road.

Even people from Sligo would also benefit whilst travelling to Dublin from reduced congestion.

Schuhart

Hamndegger wrote:

There is a far bigger picture than a few votes in P. Flynn's backyard to all of this plan, you know.

With respect, I think this statement is rhetoric rather than reality. In fact, pretending that the WRC is a project of national significance is really far from what the facts of the matter would suggest.

If you do a comparison between the WRC and Dunboyne, what the WRC amounts to is paying about four times as much to move maybe one tenth of the people – even accepting this optimistic figure of 750 per day. It is unreasonable to regard the WRC as being at the races compared to projects that actually provide social benefits in return for the investment made.

The timings information is particular useful. Can any WRC supporter explain why passengers would choose to use a slow train when a faster bus is already available? The specific and real problems with the WRC never seem to be answered, and they really need to be.

paulm17781

Hamndegger wrote:

Sure, Navan is vital, but only to the Dubs and the locals in the scheme of things.

Shall we play the victim card again???

Do you have sound economic arguement for the WRC or is it all based on "Maybe <insert suggestion> will happen"?

There is actually a strong case for Navan. What is the case for the WRC?

Diaspora

Navan Junction wrote:

Locals - you mean people in Meath?

By the way, Navan will benefit Dublin, Meath, Cavan and traffic coming from as far away as Enniskilen and Donegal through reduced volumes on the road.

Even people from Sligo would also benefit whilst travelling to Dublin from reduced congestion.

NJ

I don't accept your argument that the route will benefit people from Sligo having used the route from Cavan via Butlers Bridge & Blacklion to Sligo. The stretch between Butlers Bridge & Blacklion is as poor a road as one will ever see and the upgrades planned for the N4 make that routing the only viable choice.

Navan and its hinterland of Kells Virginia and Oldcastle deserves a rail link to its employment hub on its own merits regardless of the traffic flows from other places. If more employment was located within Co Meath and Drogheda it may be different but in the absence of that a rail link is well overdue

Navan Junction

Diaspora wrote:

I don't accept your argument that the route will benefit people from Sligo

It will benefit anyone that has to travel into Dublin via the N3. Whatever about Sligo even residually, lots of people from counties other than Dublin and Meath would benefit from reduced congestion on the N3.

Diaspora wrote:

If more employment was located within Co Meath and Drogheda it may be different but in the absence of that a rail link is well overdue

Hear, hear

nollaig

Transport 21, Have you seen my question? Where is this busy by-pass in Tuam???

Schuhart

Speaking of Tuam, I've lost a lunchhour from a thought that came from the various remarks comparing WRC to Navan. Can I say in advance that these figures are obviously crude, take no account of ongoing costs and are really just an attempt to have a rule of thumb.

The Dunboyne study seems to involve about €150 million for both track and rolling stock, with the investment yielding a potential 2 million passenger journeys. That works out at about €75 investment per annual journey.

According to the McCann report, the Tuam-Athenry portion of the WRC would cost about €35 million track only. That means that, to yield an equivalent social benefit in terms of journeys, this route would have to see about 466,000 journeys a year (remembering all the time that we’ve made no provision for rolling stock). That’s of the order of maybe 1300 a day (dividing by 365), which seems to be about double the expected load of the whole WRC.

Taking another comparison, this article suggests that about 60,000 travel on the Ennis Limerick route, and a further 80,000 go Ennis Dublin. On the face of it, These figures would raise a question over the ability of Tuam-Athenry to attract the necessary numbers to justify investment (and would nearly make you wonder as to the usefulness of Limerick Ennis, other than as a fig leaf to say ‘yes, we do have suburban rail outside Dublin’.)

Transport21 Fan

nollaig wrote:

Transport 21, Have you seen my question? Where is this busy by-pass in Tuam???

No I hadn't till you I read this. So no need for the cross-questioning the accused mu-lurd.

I meant to say the road around the back of Tuam when you take the bus from Sligo to Galway, they sometimes divert traffic through there instead of going down the main strip beside the train station - that is the "by-pass" I meant. What the name of the road is, I don't know and I don't care as like most people in Ireland, I have no desire to develop a relationship with Tuam beyond looking at it through a car or bus window on my way to either Galway or Sligo, so forgive me on my lack of expertise of the Tuam road network.

As for Ham and Egg's contention that massive freight trains (oil, zinc, etc) will be going by rail between the major commerical ports of Limerick (sold off for apartments) and Sligo (10 full-time port employees, hardly any commerical traffic handled anymore, silted up and ready for apartments and marina redevelopment) is just wishful thinking in the extreme. He makes good points about the overall picture of developing the West and I agree with the thrust of this aspect of his post (except that no way is Dublin too big, that's just a myth), but the WRC ain't part of this. How can 3 VERY SLOW trains a day between Sligo and Limerick half-filled with grannies on free travel passes, which people stuck at level crossings in rural Mayo will be looking at as they rattle by saying stuff like "sure Father MacGriel was a great man wasn't he..." going to develop the West. It almost an insult to the people of the West of Ireland to hold out this false hope to them in many ways. The Irish Times were correct - this is another "draining the Shannon" crass political spoof.

The WRC between Sligo and Limerick is never going to happen, because one look at the condition of the eh, "corridor" north of Tuam makes it instantly clear that it's impossible. Might as well construct a whole new railway line between Galway and Sligo and you know what, I would support that before I would support opening the current line north of Tuam as once you get passed Tuam station the rail line and alaignment is a useless heap of junk.

Spend the money earmarked for north of Tuam on upgrading Drogheda-Navan for passenger service and a commuter rail service on the Dublin line between Sligo and Boyle and forget this crackpot idea.

The photo I posted the other day isn't fake, the McCann report was indeed doctored, and the Irish Times told the truth some people did not want the rest of us to hear...that half a billion Euros for 750 passgeners a day is and obscene waste of taxpayers money and a tragic waste of rail transport resources and infrastruture and the gas thing is that EVERYONE knows this to be the case, even the pro WRC at any cost supporters.

But religious fanatics tend to be like this and for many people this is precisely what the WRC has become. A form of railway dogma they have absolute devotion to no matter what.

nollaig

I meant to say the road around the back of Tuam when you take the bus from Sligo to Galway, they sometimes divert traffic through there instead of going down the main strip beside the train station - that is the "by-pass" I meant. What the name of the road is,

Where the hell are you talking about? There is one place to get the bus to Sligo, beside the train station. And there is only one road to get to it. The only two level crossings in Tuam town are the one beside the train station (which I admit would cause a ****load of problems if the line ever re-opened) and the one on the N17 near the front entrance to the mart and Corrib Oil.

so forgive me on my lack of expertise of the Tuam road network.

Well, maybe you shouldnt start making points when you cant back them up:D

monument

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I think in general I am.

It’s amazing then that you have a large tendency to ignore the fact that all government transport agencies and companies are all controlled by the government.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Contray to some people's thinking, railways in Ireland are not in competition with the motorway/roads programme

Stop talking diversionary nonsense; I was taking about the funding. As in the funding would probably be diverted from road building and other projects in the west, not other rail projects in the east. But I expect you know well what I was talking about.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Rail is actually in competition with bus based public transport

To an extent, it is, but to another extent, it is not. There are many people who see rail as an alternative to there cars, but wouldn’t give the bus a look never mind second look.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Navan will make rail transport in Ireland look good to the politicians, journalists and business leaders (like the Luas and DART does, and this leads to expansion and investment).

And Navan is to be built, so it escapes me why you’re bring the Navan project into this discussion again.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

That rail investment is a form of public transport dole. We need to get away form this mindset and create and develop highly-successful railways on this island….. I believe that railways in Ireland have a fantastic future and can stand on their own feet…. People … seem to be still lost in this "Starving Black Babies in Africa" concept of rail transport investment that only by handouts and Governmental benevolence can railways survive in Ireland.

Right then, so, you’ll be campaigning to government to get them to make Luas pay back construction cost? Or are RPA projects the only ones which should get these kind of hand outs?

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I want to see a day when right wing economists are demanding rail investment in Ireland

At least a few have done so already, so you can stop dreaming about a day that has already passed.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The only way we'll get this is by prioritising the high-capacity commuter rail lines to the top of the T21 food chain.

I disagree. Dart, Luas, and Metro construction, expansion, and upgrades, as well as injections into Dublin Bus, are far more important.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Tough, if the preist can't deal with it. Ireland is no longer under the yoke of the Papal Nuncio and the IT is perfectly entitiled to print what they wish and besides, they backed-up their opinion with facts and the Freedom of Information Act and all the 'pro-WRC at any cost' crowd have done since then in rebuttle is to hoist their on-tap, fantasy victim complexes futher up the flagpole.

I’m no great fan of the Catholic church, but a priest is just as “perfectly entitiled to” express his views as the Irish Times or you or me. Anyway, could you stop attacking people who are not on this board to defend them selves?

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Anways, this all is naval gazing as the whole Grand Trunk Social Justice Route WRC gig was dealth a fatal blow by the Irish Times.

If that is in fact true, you can don’t have any reason to worry about the WRC.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

(except that no way is Dublin too big, that's just a myth),

Dublin is too spread out, not too big. What is needed to be encouraged is higher density within the M50. Widespread low density might work in LA County where there are many work centres, but continuing such is just not manageable in the Greater Dublin Area when everyone is still travelling to relatively few places within a small area. Quite understandably, some people here don’t like to hear stuff like this.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

The WRC between Sligo and Limerick is never going to happen, because one look at the condition of the eh, "corridor" north of Tuam makes it instantly clear that it's impossible.

Again, if that is in fact true, you can don’t have any reason to worry about the WRC.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Spend the money earmarked for north of Tuam on upgrading Drogheda-Navan for passenger service and a commuter rail service on the Dublin line between Sligo and Boyle and forget this crackpot idea.

Even the Irish Times suggests that the money to be used on the WRC would be diverted from other projects in the same area. The way you’re carrying on it sounds like the IT is unquestionable, so is there any chance you’ll drop the “crackpot idea” that any funds for the WRC would be used in the east.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

that half a billion Euros for 750 passgeners a day is and obscene waste of taxpayers money and a tragic waste of rail transport resources and infrastruture and the gas thing is that EVERYONE knows this to be the case, even the pro WRC at any cost supporters.

Wow! Now you’re actually speaking for people you’re arguing against. Are you telepathic? Because their words seam to portray they take issue with the 750 number, far from knowing it “to be the case”.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

But religious fanatics tend to be like this and for many people this is precisely what the WRC has become. A form of railway dogma they have absolute devotion to no matter what.

This is the makeup of most of your post here, it’s always black and white, and you spend most of your time with what amounts to name calling one group or another (on this topic or others). Most of your post are made of sweeping statements of apparent fact, which you try to enforced by actually saying ‘this is fact’.

Ham'nd'egger

Monument, it's like this...

Platform 11 basically want their cake and eat it, as well as the cake of the WRC. And rightly so, they have their issues to support as have WOT, etc etc. It doesn't seem to occur to them though, that other parts of the network need to be developed and enhanced as well, even if it won't make sense on paper or sense to them. There is a lot that could well be gained from WRT, or else Irish Rail would not wish to follow it up. Why, if it is such a loss leader, are the State Railway company willing to back it?

Maybe it's State Policy, trying to give the West a chance to have a decent rail infrastructure. Maybe there is an alternative to everything in Dublin. Maybe it's a pain in the arse to close off all the lines in the West everytime there is relaying or a broken engine, or maybe they actually want additional routes. The WRC does give more than a return Limerick Sligo every day. Ballina-Limerick or Galway would link to the Westport service while linking mid Mayo and Galway to each other, utilising the Manulla set for more than it currently is used for; it could in turn be part of the Galway local service. Meanwhile, a Dublin-Limerick train via Athlone could open up much of Clare directly to the east. And this without the Burma Road being mentioned!

By the way, I mentioned Ports in the west simply because there is potential of several ports to be revitalised and the fact that many entries into the State exist in the West, regardless of how busy or quiet they are. Maybe they can't handle freight due to inability of transport links, maybe it other issues, but again, it's the fact that they are there that is the issue; they can well be utilised better. I am aware of Limerick being talked about rezoning for property, I am aware of Sligo being quiet, but then again, I am aware of Dublin Port being "moved", so why not move it to an existing port with the rail links?

Certainly, a Navan line will carry more passengers than a WRC, but let's play big fish little fish with this for a second... (and lets pretend, for arguement's sake that some fairy Godmother; ie the EU Coffers, who probably are going to pay for both projects)

Small fish=WRC Big Fish=Navan line.

Small Fish=Navan Line Big Fish= Oodles of lines in Europe, like even the Dublin Cork line, or a line in Holland, Germany, France etc etc.

Now, who deserves it more in terms of Pax numbers?

Schuhart

At the risk of butting in, there’s an amount of sense in both Monument's and T21F's posts. I take from Monument’s post that its important to play the ball and not the man. How we might or might not regard priests as a group is irrelevant to the question of rail transport. Likewise, if we regarded footballers or hot air balloonists as persons of impeccable character, that doesn’t mean we’d take any particular heed of them if they announced support for the Navan service. A person’s profession is not of relevance, and lampooning stereotypes does nothing to add to our understanding of an issue.

However, T21F does seem to have a compelling point (stripping away the hyperbole) regarding the lack of any benefits arising from the WRC. Those points have never been answered by any WRC supporter.

We have no idea how the figure of 750 per day was arrived at. But comparison to the Dublin Westport route’s circa 500k suggests its in the right ballpark. Comparison to Limerick Waterford suggests its very optimistic.

The journey time information suggests existing bus services will be far quicker, making it unlikely that the WRC service will be seen as attractive by many.

On the face of it, a proposal to spend millions to provide a slow rail service which is unlikely to attract custom should not be at the table – whether its in Navan, Tullamore or Sligo. That description seems to apply to the WRC, yet it seems to have a strong lobby. I can appreciate that when people feel attacked the instinct is to defend. Hence, the first reaction of a WRC supporter will be to defend their baby. But, as far as can objectively be found, they are just backing the wrong horse.

How do you get people to turn away from a bad idea that they’re fond of?

corktina

oh my god, don't be saying that buses would be more economic, ...I'm getting slaughtered on the railway news site for saying that.....:)

Victor

Hamndegger wrote:

there is surely some central government plan to do something massive in the west that warrants such a plan as the WRT.

Any idea what this government plan might be?

Navan Junction

Hamndegger wrote:

some fairy Godmother; ie the EU Coffers, who probably are going to pay for both projects

Navan is to be 50% funded through imposition of development levies imposed on developments along the route. Approximately €225m must be raised from buyers of new homes along the alignment, probably within a 7 mile radius or more.

Hamndegger wrote:

Small Fish=Navan Line Big Fish= Oodles of lines in Europe, like even the Dublin Cork line, or a line in Holland, Germany, France etc etc. Now, who deserves it more in terms of Pax numbers?

0% funding from Europe. Nothing to do with Europe.

The people of Meath, and particularly Navan and Kells will be bled dry for almost every piece of infrastructure provided.

You miss that every Euro put into Navan Clonsilla by Central Government will be matched by a locally raised Euro.

No one is doing Meath any favours. If the government had kept their 1999 pledge, Meath's bill would only by £30-£40m, Navan would be built by now, but because it was delayed by Government the county must now raise €225m.

Very good of them to push it back to 2015 at the expense of people in Meath.

And equally good of you to tell the people of Meath where their money should be spent.

DerekP11

Hamndegger wrote:

Monument, it's like this...

Platform 11 basically want their cake and eat it, as well as the cake of the WRC. And rightly so, they have their issues to support as have WOT, etc etc. It doesn't seem to occur to them though, that other parts of the network need to be developed and enhanced as well, even if it won't make sense on paper or sense to them. There is a lot that could well be gained from WRT, or else Irish Rail would not wish to follow it up. Why, if it is such a loss leader, are the State Railway company willing to back it? QUOTE]

Ah Hambone, you're having a laugh now. We don't even like cake! As for "it doesn't seem to occur to them though, that other parts of the network need to be developed and enhanced as well"........ you obviously can't read. Try my last post for references to many other areas such as Limerick commuter, Nenagh, limerick - Waterford and even New Ross.

As for Irish Rail "backing this project", you're sadly out of touch with reality. Irish Rail have no say in the matter. It's a directive from the minister for transport, who is the sole shareholder in the company. Had you bothered to actually "educate" yourself as to what is going on, then you would know that the CEO of Irish Rail told the Oireachtas Committee on transport, that they will reopen the WRC so long as construction funds are provided and the "additional subsidy" is funded by the exchequer. The WRC was not part of Irish Rail plans. It has been forced down their throats by politicians. Its a pity that the Phoenix Park tunnel and Navan (to name just some examples) weren't equally forced down their throats.

As for your logic and opinion....I could hibernate for 100 years and we'd never agree. So I suggest you continue to express your opinion on the WRC, but curtail your opinions on P11 and our views on the WRC, as they are far from fact and so wide of the mark, that it makes you look foolish.

Ham'nd'egger

Now now, Navan, do you actually believe that EU monies won't in any way fund the Navan line? After all the toys that they have given us in the last few years, you actually think this one is going to be paid by a few builders? Levies on houses that are not even twinkles on architect's Macs? Rates on apartments that are not even there? You really must be away with the fairies if you bite that line. As for my point on lines in other places being busier, that is the fault of your logic. More people in Germany, they deserve priority over Irish, if density of people is the rule of thumb. With rail travel on the up and up, it is an ideal time for the West to have a decent rail system, same way as the East has.

At least the WRC line, unlike the 40 year closed Navan line, is sitting there, ready to reopen in no time. A contractor cleared the line of weedings late last year, so work is clearly planned. I am sure that a few months with the relaying team will have most of the WRC in action from Galway to Mayo. Meanwhile, all you can do is moan and groan, jealous that somebody else is getting something for their own good.

With regards to Victors question, Decentralisation and National Spatial is alone two public faces of developing outside of Dublin in line with overall governmet policy. The regions are next for major growth, and a decent transport system, railway included will see to it that all parts can be reached with relative ease.

अधिनायक

Here's an alternative way to spend €10m per annum for 750 daily passengers.

Assume 375 return journeys.

Lease 375 X Mercedes S350 Auto LWB @ 2,213.89 each per month.

Allocate them to the first 375 applicants each day.

Total cost €9,962,505 per annum

Now you still have €300m that you didn't spend on a railway to coolooney, so you can divide that up in grants for petrol, insurance, tinted windows whatever.

Same number of passenger journeys - but happier passengers.

Transport21 Fan

Hamndegger wrote:

The WRC does give more than a return Limerick Sligo every day. Ballina-Limerick or Galway would link to the Westport service while linking mid Mayo and Galway to each other, utilising the Manulla set for more than it currently is used for; it could in turn be part of the Galway local service. Meanwhile, a Dublin-Limerick train via Athlone could open up much of Clare directly to the east. And this without the Burma Road being mentioned!

But it's not just the Burma Road part. The victorian light railway engineering starts as soon as the WRC heads north of Tuam station and the level crossings and poor engineering is instantly apparent (not one level crossing between Atherny and Tuam btw). Look how many times the WRC crosses the N17 just before it enters Claremorris. The proposed services you mention from Westport/Ballina/Manulla would all have to use a section of railway between Claremorris and Tuam that's as bad as anything on the Burma Road and perhaps worse for a service aspect as the level crossing are located at much busier roads. As for the Munulla set the IE unions would kill that. They are the biggest enemies of flexible and imaginative railway services in this country. So I would not hold out too much hope for that one.

Hamndegger wrote:

By the way, I mentioned Ports in the west simply because there is potential of several ports to be revitalised and the fact that many entries into the State exist in the West, regardless of how busy or quiet they are.

Just Foynes and in terms of cargo it's a tiny port and the rail links do not go dockside and the line from Foynes to Limerick is in bits and any freight trains would have to get over that before going to Sligo. What's the point really? Other than that there is no other major port in the West capable of handling enough cargo to supply freight trains. Sligo is just about gone. I have not seen a cargo vessel of any kind there in ages and all the port facilities are closed and the railfreight yard hardly used and when it was created terrible HGV gridlock in the town centre - like Cabra depot in Dublin it was a railfreight location which was the cause of the congestion, not the reduction of it. Much better to have a small reailfeight depot on the outskirts of Sligo.

Hamndegger wrote:

Maybe they can't handle freight due to inability of transport links, maybe it other issues, but again, it's the fact that they are there that is the issue; they can well be utilised better. I am aware of Limerick being talked about rezoning for property, I am aware of Sligo being quiet, but then again, I am aware of Dublin Port being "moved", so why not move it to an existing port with the rail links?

No argument there. But I am not a reader of the future, but am I only the only person pessimistic enough to see when Dublin Port is moved that it'll be 100% truck served? I mean, do you trust CIE enough to do this and if not there, then what chance Foynes or railfreight to any other port?

Hamndegger wrote:

Certainly, a Navan line will carry more passengers than a WRC, but let's play big fish little fish with this for a second... (and lets pretend, for arguement's sake that some fairy Godmother; ie the EU Coffers, who probably are going to pay for both projects)

Small fish=WRC Big Fish=Navan line.

Small Fish=Navan Line Big Fish= Oodles of lines in Europe, like even the Dublin Cork line, or a line in Holland, Germany, France etc etc.

Now, who deserves it more in terms of Pax numbers?

That's not going to fly in terms of justifying the WRC north of Athenry. You're bending relaity in order to justify the unjustifiable.

DerekP11

Hamndegger wrote:

Now now, Navan, do you actually believe that EU monies won't in any way fund the Navan line? After all the toys that they have given us in the last few years, you actually think this one is going to be paid by a few builders? Levies on houses that are not even twinkles on architect's Macs? Rates on apartments that are not even there? You really must be away with the fairies if you bite that line. As for my point on lines in other places being busier, that is the fault of your logic. More people in Germany, they deserve priority over Irish, if density of people is the rule of thumb. With rail travel on the up and up, it is an ideal time for the West to have a decent rail system, same way as the East has.

At least the WRC line, unlike the 40 year closed Navan line, is sitting there, ready to reopen in no time. A contractor cleared the line of weedings late last year, so work is clearly planned. I am sure that a few months with the relaying team will have most of the WRC in action from Galway to Mayo. Meanwhile, all you can do is moan and groan, jealous that somebody else is getting something for their own good.

With regards to Victors question, Decentralisation and National Spatial is alone two public faces of developing outside of Dublin in line with overall governmet policy. The regions are next for major growth, and a decent transport system, railway included will see to it that all parts can be reached with relative ease.

That is perhaps the most rediculous and inciteful post on this thread, in terms of real debate on the issue. Honestly, Ham N Cheese, do you read your posts before they go live? Have you read the entire thread? Do you access all debate on the WRC? Are you informed about all the background to the WRC controversy? Let me think.........Answer = No.

Any chance you could offer us some real facts to debate?

Transport21 Fan

Hamndegger wrote:

Now now, Navan, do you actually believe that EU monies won't in any way fund the Navan line? After all the toys that they have given us in the last few years, you actually think this one is going to be paid by a few builders? Levies on houses that are not even twinkles on architect's Macs? Rates on apartments that are not even there? You really must be away with the fairies if you bite that line. As for my point on lines in other places being busier, that is the fault of your logic. More people in Germany, they deserve priority over Irish, if density of people is the rule of thumb. With rail travel on the up and up, it is an ideal time for the West to have a decent rail system, same way as the East has.

At least the WRC line, unlike the 40 year closed Navan line, is sitting there, ready to reopen in no time. A contractor cleared the line of weedings late last year, so work is clearly planned. I am sure that a few months with the relaying team will have most of the WRC in action from Galway to Mayo. Meanwhile, all you can do is moan and groan, jealous that somebody else is getting something for their own good.

With regards to Victors question, Decentralisation and National Spatial is alone two public faces of developing outside of Dublin in line with overall governmet policy. The regions are next for major growth, and a decent transport system, railway included will see to it that all parts can be reached with relative ease.

I was willing to give you a listen, until this rubbish. Honestly, you sound like an intelligent person on some levels, stop trying to fool people with this tripe that some 30 year old light railway track rotting in the ground is the answer to the West of Ireland's prayers and represents a more turnkey project than Navan.