Western Rail Corridor

Ham'nd'egger

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I was willing to give you a listen, until this rubbish. Honestly, you sound like an intelligent person on some levels, stop trying to fool people with this tripe that some 30 year old light railway track rotting in the ground is the answer to the West of Ireland's prayers and represents a more turnkey project than Navan.

With all due respect, the amount of energy that P11 puts into opposing the WRC does show that there is clearly some friction from P11 towards the WRC getting government backing far earlier that it's own pet projects. I am not for one minute saying that the WRC will carry more Pax than the Navan line; heck I know well that the Navan line is a vital cog in Eastern planning. Indeed, nobody is doubting the need for a link to Navan. What some are doubting is the need for a line in the West, which is unfair to development in the West.

What I am saying is this:-

1) The trackbed is very much intact, and in the case of Claremorris-Tuam-Athenry and Athenry-Ennis-Limerick, it is with the work of the Permanant Way Crew, very much workable to passenger traffic in a matter of time. PW can re-ballast and lay track at the rate of about 2 miles a day at full pace for CWT, with older stock taking much less time based on availability of trackwork. But realistically, the rate of relay would be 1/2-1 mile a day, not a huge amount of track to be relaid given the timespans estimated.

2) The Navan line needs a full relaying process from top to bottom, unlike the WRC. Not being cynical, it's plain fact. Nothing exists from Clonsilla to Navan save the earthen trackbed.

3) If the Navan/Pace line was to magically reopen today, there is no traffic slots for it to run into Dublin, such is the train congestion; Spencer Dock has to come before Navan/Pace. WRC has no such issues to be dealt with as such, so it is more practical to take on for now.

4) I fail to believe that with all the trains and lines with EU stamping on them, no EU monies are to be spent on the Navan line. No two ways about it, I find that to be a load of bulls milk.

5) I also find it hard to believe that nobody here can accept that the WRC has not got some social or spatial value. I don't think any of us will expect a railway to make money, but the value to it's community and the way it opens up Ireland is what is the big point of WRC, not gaining a few votes. FFS, Fianna Fail are shoe in's in the West, it would be cheaper to buy votes by getting people gargled lol

6) I think it ought to be clarified that the "Burma" runs Claremorris to Colloney. Everyone knows it's the hazardous wedge of the line, but odd as it sounds, it's not the section that is wanted back the most!

No line proposed to be re opened has no value put onto it. The poor old WRC won't take all that much to re-open. Can the P11 guys not be happy for the WOT side and welcome them their good fortune?

Navan Junction

Hamndegger wrote:

Now now, Navan, do you actually believe that EU monies won't in any way fund the Navan line? After all the toys that they have given us in the last few years, you actually think this one is going to be paid by a few builders? Levies on houses that are not even twinkles on architect's Macs? Rates on apartments that are not even there? You really must be away with the fairies if you bite that line.

Cork Midleton

markpb

Hamndegger wrote:

5) I also find it hard to believe that nobody here can accept that the WRC has not got some social or spatial value. I don't think any of us will expect a railway to make money, but the value to it's community and the way it opens up Ireland is what is the big point of WRC

I feel you're missing the point a little. No-one has ever claimed the line has no social value - the problem is that, for its cost, it doesn't have enough non-economic value.

Not only is the initial cost very high but, because of the predicted lack of traffic, its ongoing subsidies will be very high as well. If they were lower, or more people were expected to travel on it, it might be worth doing. If you read the report on the WRC, it says exactly that. Similarly, if you read the report on the re-opening of the Pace section, it was decided that it doesn't make sense economically but it's so close that factoring in the social benefits makes it worthwhile overall.

Without a huge subsidy, there are likely to be very few trains each way, possible no more than three. And with only three trains a day, they will probably run too late in the morning and too late in the evening to be much use for commuters - the primary rail users today. This leaves freight which is dubious and other travellers.

If it was money for nothing, the line should be rebuilt to see if all the economic benefits the WRC group have mentioned will happen but we can't. In the absense of any real future telling abilities, all we have are planning (have any of the counties around the WRC made any provision for medium density planning along the line?) and hope. And frankly, I don't like trusting hope when it comes to hundreds of millions of euros.

No line proposed to be re opened has no value put onto it. The poor old WRC won't take all that much to re-open. Can the P11 guys not be happy for the WOT side and welcome them their good fortune?

The poor old WRC? It's comments like that that turn most people away from the WRC. If the WRC had any real arguments for it, the report might have found in its favour. Instead we have a mix of 'poor us in the west', 'businesses might set up', 'ports might reopen' and 'the airport needs it'. Nothing has been done by the county councils to promote any of that, it won't go to knock airport and there are better ways to spend the same money *in the West* that would have more benefits. Other than freight, what advantage does a three times a day train line have over a fleet of modern Bus Eireann buses that could run more often and, because of speed restrictions on the track, would actually be faster?

maxheadroom

Hamndegger wrote:

With all due respect, the amount of energy that P11 puts into opposing the WRC does show that there is clearly some friction from P11 towards the WRC getting government backing far earlier that it's own pet projects.

It has nothing to do with pet projects and everything to do with fairly evaluating projects based on merit. Can you explain why the WRC deserves to be reopened without the kind of intensive studying, land use planning and development levies that projects like Navan, Middleton or Athlone-Mullingar have required (or will require)?

Hamndegger wrote:

1) The trackbed is very much intact, and in the case of Claremorris-Tuam-Athenry and Athenry-Ennis-Limerick, it is with the work of the Permanant Way Crew, very much workable to passenger traffic in a matter of time. PW can re-ballast and lay track at the rate of about 2 miles a day at full pace for CWT, with older stock taking much less time based on availability of trackwork. But realistically, the rate of relay would be 1/2-1 mile a day, not a huge amount of track to be relaid given the timespans estimated.

You do realise that the line is in such an appaliing state that in order to run passenger trains on it they will have to rip up the original line and start from scratch, right?

Hamndegger wrote:

4) I fail to believe that with all the trains and lines with EU stamping on them, no EU monies are to be spent on the Navan line. No two ways about it, I find that to be a load of bulls milk.

Believe it, the only two areas that will recieve any EU structural funds again are the BMW region and the SE region. Ireland is now a net contributor to the European purse.

Hamndegger wrote:

6) I think it ought to be clarified that the "Burma" runs Claremorris to Colloney. Everyone knows it's the hazardous wedge of the line, but odd as it sounds, it's not the section that is wanted back the most!

You sure about that, I remember some reports coming from the WOT direction about the time that a staged reopening from the south was first mooted stating that works should actually start at the northern end...

Hamndegger wrote:

No line proposed to be re opened has no value put onto it. The poor old WRC won't take all that much to re-open. Can the P11 guys not be happy for the WOT side and welcome them their good fortune?

Do you honesty think that 'ah sure its not that expensive and the west needs something' is a good reason to spend 10 million a year every year from the day it opens to pasenger traffic on operating subsidies?

nollaig

Look how many times the WRC crosses the N17 just before it enters Claremorris.

3 times, yeah? Which is quite a few I guess.

Ham'nd'egger

nollaig wrote:

3 times, yeah? Which is quite a few I guess.

Using that logic, it is fair and reasonable to rip up the Dart from Grand Canal Dock to Booterstown.

markf909

Hamndegger wrote:

Using that logic, it is fair and reasonable to rip up the Dart from Grand Canal Dock to Booterstown.

Why? How many times does the Dart cross the N11 at grade?

paulm17781

Hamndegger wrote:

Using that logic, it is fair and reasonable to rip up the Dart from Grand Canal Dock to Booterstown.

The DART carried 26 million people last year. The WRC will not do that in 10 years, if it does open.

Tell me, who do you think will use the WRC?

How many journeys per year?

What benefit will it bring over a decent bus service?

How will it improve the west over let's say, commuter services for Galway and Limerick?

Rather than criticize, why not make a sound case for the WRC other than "Dublin gets everything."

Schuhart

markpb wrote:

I feel you're missing the point a little. No-one has ever claimed the line has no social value - the problem is that, for its cost, it doesn't have enough non-economic value.

I’m not disagreeing with the substance of what you say, but I think there’s a need to use terms with a little more precision.

If something was economically justified, it would mean that all benefits, including social benefits, outweigh all costs. For example, reopening Dunboyne does not make ‘financial’ sense, but the social benefits mean it is economically justified.

In the case of the WRC, it would look to be neither financially nor economically justified. The potential social benefits seem to be:

Convenience of an additional transport option between towns on the route
Improved infrastructure making West an attractive alternative to East
Environmental benefits if use of more polluting modes are reduced
Time savings if mode quicker than alternatives

However, all these social benefits are simply related to the ability of the WRC to attract passengers. If it is slower than bus, it won’t bring time savings. If it attracts few passengers, then it is not providing much convenience or adding to the attractiveness of the West or contributing to the reduction of use of more polluting modes.

There’s really no magic to this, and no hidden ‘intangible’ benefits. If the WRC doesn’t attract many passengers, then the social benefits are just not there and the investment should not be made.

Transport21 Fan

Ham'nd'egger have you seen the Conflicts of Interest thread...be a good lad now, cheers.

Nollaig, the bus from Sligo to Galway on some services stops at Knock and the driver says "Passenger for Tuam change to the bus in front" if you stay on the original bus from Sligo it goes around the back of Tuam and nowhere near the train station. (and yes it crosses over the railway also at ANOTHER level crossing in Tuam itself). I also find it ironic that your entrance onto this thread was declaring that the WRC was needed badly as Tuam had no public transport to Galway and then somebody pointed out that Bus Eireann runs an good Tuam-Galway bus service (and fairly quick too) and even posted up the timetables. which you, the NOW expert on Tuam public bus transport was completely unaware of.

Nice to know that you finally accept that Tuam does have buses service in it.

Ham'nd'egger

Hamndegger wrote:

Using that logic, it is fair and reasonable to rip up the Dart from Grand Canal Dock to Booterstown.

Not to mention the Luas

Ham'nd'egger

markf909 wrote:

Why? How many times does the Dart cross the N11 at grade?

Seeing as you asked,the Dart crosses Lansdown Road, Serpentine Avenue, Sandymount and Sydney Parade stations and the Merrion Gates. 5 times in 2 miles or so, of which the last is more than legendary for the manic disruptions it causes, possibly it is the busiest LC in Ireland in terms of cars crossing it.

markf909

Hamndegger wrote:

Seeing as you asked,the Dart crosses Lansdown Road, Serpentine Avenue, Sandymount and Sydney Parade stations and the Merrion Gates. 5 times in 2 miles or so, of which the last is more than legendary for the manic disruptions it causes, possibly it is the busiest LC in Ireland in terms of cars crossing it.

I think you missed my point. At no stage does the Dart cross a national primary route.
Busy roads yes, but not national roads. The WRC crosses the N17 and the N6 at Claregalway IIRC

Schuhart

Hamndegger wrote:

possibly it is the busiest LC in Ireland in terms of cars crossing it.

But what's your point? Even with level crossings and sharing road space, Dart and Luas contribute by offering a quicker and less polluting alternative to other modes. The WRC cannot offer a quicker alternative to other forms, partly because of all the level crossings on its route.

Why spend money on something so obviously pointless? This not an East/West thing. Any project so obviously without merit should be dropped.

bk

Hamndegger wrote:

Seeing as you asked,the Dart crosses Lansdown Road, Serpentine Avenue, Sandymount and Sydney Parade stations and the Merrion Gates. 5 times in 2 miles or so, of which the last is more than legendary for the manic disruptions it causes, possibly it is the busiest LC in Ireland in terms of cars crossing it.

I believe there are plans in the works to build underpasses under those crossings.

Plus the DART carries 26 million passengers a year.

I'm not a member of P11, just an interested observer, but I've yet to see the WRC supporters give one logical reason why the WRC should be opened.

I'd be happy to hear any from you or anyone else?

Ham'nd'egger

markf909 wrote:

I think you missed my point. At no stage does the Dart cross a national primary route.
Busy roads yes, but not national roads. The WRC crosses the N17 and the N6 at Claregalway IIRC

I didn't miss your point. All I said was that there is more level crossings on a busy line in Dublin than on the N 17; 5 over 3, so on that basis, which one is more "important" is a debate in itself. The rank of road is not really relevant if disturbance is the issue.

Ham'nd'egger

Navan Junction wrote:

Cork Midleton

Cork Midleton

This project encompasses the reopening of the line from Glounthaune to Midleton and the provision of enhanced commuter services in the Cork area. Cork city and county council have to there credit employed effective planning policies to provide development adjacent to the railway line which greatly improves the feasibility of the line.

The project is backed by EU funding...

From the website of Platform11.

paulm17781

Hamndegger wrote:

I didn't miss your point. All I said was that there is more level crossings on a busy line in Dublin than on the N 17; 5 over 3, so on that basis, which one is more "important" is a debate in itself. The rank of road is not really relevant if disturbance is the issue.

Its not relevant as the DART carries 26M p/a. it is a necessary part of Dublin's infrastructure.

Care to answer my questions above?

Navan Junction

Hamndegger wrote:

Cork Midleton

This project encompasses the reopening of the line from Glounthaune to Midleton and the provision of enhanced commuter services in the Cork area. Cork city and county council have to there credit employed effective planning policies to provide development adjacent to the railway line which greatly improves the feasibility of the line.

The project is backed by EU funding...

From the website of Platform11.

Missed my point entirely. Navan isn't recieving EU funding. I was refering to levies.

i won't bother with the bold typeface.

Anyway, I'm off. Enjoy your trip.

MarkoP11

The work on the line at Cork Kent falls under the EU TEN program and is funded or more to the point EU funds can be sought for it and that appears to be the case

The engineering works on the line to Midleton are not EU funded and that is quite clearly stated on the tender issued recently, Does the contract relate to a Project/Programme financed by EU Funds? No

With the exception of the Dublin Cork mainline I am aware of no EU funding available any currently ongoing rail project in the state

Of course Ham'nd'egger you made one fatal mistake in quoting that piece

Cork city and county council have to there credit employed effective planning policies to provide development adjacent to the railway line which greatly improves the feasibility of the line.

Thats the whole problem with the WRC no planning policy

You also left out

The project is backed by EU funding which is at risk it if is not promptly delivered.

The Luas has all its EU funding withdrawn, the DART never got its EC cheque despite it arriving from Brussels. I think at this stage Cork is on edge

nollaig

Nollaig, the bus from Sligo to Galway on some services stops at Knock and the driver says "Passenger for Tuam change to the bus in front" if you stay on the original bus from Sligo it goes around the back of Tuam and nowhere near the train station. (and yes it crosses over the railway also at ANOTHER level crossing in Tuam itself). I also find it ironic that your entrance onto this thread was declaring that the WRC was needed badly as Tuam had no public transport to Galway and then somebody pointed out that Bus Eireann runs an good Tuam-Galway bus service (and fairly quick too) and even posted up the timetables. which you, the NOW expert on Tuam public bus transport was completely unaware of.

Right so there are 2 level crossings in Tuam, not several as you stated earlier. 2 is hardly several, now is it? Its this kind of misleading bull**** that drives me mad. By the back of Tuam, I can only assume you mean the N17.

Look how many times the WRC crosses the N17 just before it enters Claremorris.

Ok, if you are on about the Tuam side, then 3 times. Again, this is a misleading comment. I know you might be talking about the other side so maybe you are right. I knoiw nothing of the line north of claremorris and have never pretended to know anything about it. What I do know about is Tuam.

As for my comments about the buses, I do not remember exactly what I said but my point was not the buses from Tuam-Galway but from Tuam to Dublin, Athlone etc. And I have gotten buses from Tuam to Galway for years. There is also Burkes bus which provide an excellent service between Tuam and Galway. So dont say I dont know about buses between Tuam and Galway because I do.

Schuhart

Is any of this terribly important? The issue hardly depends on the amount of level crossings in the immediate vicinity of Tuam. The key points seem to be:

1. The WRC will be a slow train, and slower than bus between the same locations. The fact that the route passes many level crossings is one of the factors that makes the route slow.

2. The estimated 750 passengers per day for the WRC route seems reasonable and, if anything, optimistic compared to the real world examples of Dublin Westport and Limerick Waterford.

3. The social benefits of the WRC depend entirely on its ability to attract passengers. A largely empty service yields no real benefit and creates costs for others, as it takes resources that could have been used for a useful purpose.

4. Because of the low passenger numbers, the benefits yielded by the WRC bear no relationship to the costs. It costs far more than other projects – in fact a multiple of what it costs to deliver the same benefits elsewhere.

5. Even looking on Tuam in isolation, the service would have to attract roughly double the estimated daily passenger load for the entire WRC to bring equivalent benefits to reopening Dunboyne. The Limerick Ennis experience suggests this is extremely unlikely to happen.

The overall conclusion is that reopening the WRC is simply a complete waste. Now, has any WRC supporter ever addressed any of these points?

maxheadroom

nollaig wrote:

As for my comments about the buses, I do not remember exactly what I said but my point was not the buses from Tuam-Galway but from Tuam to Dublin, Athlone etc. And I have gotten buses from Tuam to Galway for years. There is also Burkes bus which provide an excellent service between Tuam and Galway. So dont say I dont know about buses between Tuam and Galway because I do.

I assume you're comparing this withb a potential rail service from Tuam to Dublin / Athlone etc? If so, why would a slow train to Galway followed by an intercity train be preferable to a fast bus to Galway followed by an intercity train? Surely you aren't suggesting that there would be a direct service from Dublin to Tuam?

Ham'nd'egger

The DART carried 26 million people last year. The WRC will not do that in 10 years, if it does open.

True, but based on the figure we all hear used for the WRC, the 750 a day...

750 passengers per day, that's 5 days a week, and a year has 52 weeks, so equates to 195,000 passenger trips. Nowhere near the 26 million of Dart, but still a hefty amount, not forgetting the fact that there is far less people in the West to use the WRC compared to DART. I think we all can agree that there will be a benefit in additional stations linked to Galway and Westport trains so there will be an halo effect in the whole Western region, not just confined to the WRC directly. As well, let us not forget that both lines will get additional train services in the next few years, so again there will be more convenient times for passengers to use trains. The future is not all doom and gloom out beyond the Shannon.

And yes, it will be nowhere near the numbers of Dart, Luas, Navan etc but put these issues into Pro Rata population numbers and the figures do add up better. Galway has what, 50,000 people in the city? Dublin has 20 times that. Not as many people in the west use trains, but there is longer to travel to train stations, and the services offered by Irish Rail all run to Dublin or nothing. There is no real options, no alternative but to drive or bus it. WRC opens up the west to more tangible services, it's not just a case of going from Sligo to Limerick; there is a few other lines and stations in between.

God bless but everyone laughed when James Horan wanted to build Knock Airport. Ok, it's no Dublin in traffic terms but neither was Dublin 20 years ago. The field of Dreams, "Build it and they will come"

Tell me, who do you think will use the WRC?

Well, Mayo people, Galweigans, Clare and Limerick people for one, not to mention those travelling this side of Ireland. Some elements though the M 50 was a white elephant many moons ago; look at it now. Dart trains are now 4 set instead of the 2 that it began with. Even Ennis Limerick is doing well. Maybe it won't happen like this but given that more people need to go places, with a reasonable frequency then yes people will use it. It is not so much the will not's more think of the what if's that it will offer.

How many journeys per year?

How long is a piece of string? Lets say 3 services each way Westport-Galway so that is 6 train movements. If you have connections, then that opens up a few more towns that have links to Dublin Westport; then a few runs from Athenry working south, again say 3 each way. And assuming the Burma is opened (In time), there could be similar on it. That's at least 18 services a day, giving 12 drivers work (2 per train per day, assuming two trains each section). Then staff on each section for stations, gangers, inspectors, PW crews and you are quickly looking at a small army of bodies.

What benefit will it bring over a decent bus service?

Well off the bat, one railcar set (Two carraiges) can carry 3 bus loads, and with one driver employed for same, there is a staffing economy. In addition, the fuel for one engine would be sigificantly less than said 3 buses. Then, the costing to lay and maintain a railway line are far less than that of a roadway, not to mention far far safer (How many souls die on our roads and on our railways?).

How will it improve the west over let's say, commuter services for Galway and Limerick?

Ever travelled on the N 17, Terryland and Ballybrit about rush hour? It's as bad as Dublin is! I'm sure a hell of a lot of these people would gladly rail it to Tuam, Attymon, Castlebar if they could. I know some West Mayo residents even travel the N 59 rather than travel through some parts of Galway such is the traffic.

Simply put, WRC gives far more options, far far more options to go places. And the benefits associated with the last answer to boot. As well, there is private freight companies preparing to enter the Irish rail market in 2007 so it gives them a half decent access point west of Ireland. I am not for one minute saying they will need this line; but they may well do.

Rather than criticize, why not make a sound case for the WRC other than "Dublin gets everything."

I don't have to make the sound case as such. It's been done and like it or not, the WRC is on the way, and there is little that the begrudgers can do to stop it. Evidentally somebody has made a sound case as the monies are being allocated for same. Same way, monies were allocated for CWT, new push pull sets, railcars, CTC; there is clearly a bigger plan for all of this new investment than just "It needed it". We all can pick other projects that need to be done as well (I'd love to see Mid Ulster opened up to rail again for one) but this one is one that is easily done and evidentally it has some potential.

Schuhart

A lot of writing, but it doesn't take much to boil it down.

Hamndegger wrote:

750 passengers per day, that's 5 days a week, and a year has 52 weeks, so equates to 195,000 passenger trips. Nowhere near the 26 million of Dart, but still a hefty amount, not forgetting the fact that there is far less people in the West to use the WRC compared to DART.

Fine, now how many Dunboyne passengers is a WRC passenger worth. Would you be willing to pay twice as much for one? Three times?

Hamndegger wrote:

I don't have to make the sound case as such.

More like can't make a sound case. The case that got this through was political.

Ham'nd'egger

Schuhart wrote:

A lot of writing, but it doesn't take much to boil it down.

Your right, it doesn't.

WOT have their line. Platform11 don't, and are sucking lemons.

paulm17781

Not bothered quoting your post as it is too long. Surely from your answers you can see that there is no sound investment case and no social case. Do you really think 3 trains a day, which aren't on commuter areas, will be used? If money wasn't an issue I would be all for the WRC. When there are so many more deserving projects, it is disgraceful that it comes first.

Schuhart

Hamndegger wrote:

WOT have their line. Platform11 don't, and are sucking lemons.

I think you really have no appreciation as to why people have a problem with the WRC. You seem to see it in terms of people getting largesse from some bottomless pit of money.

The WRC is about taking money out of your pocket and my pocket and wasting it. In that situation its simply not possible to give WOT a pat on the back and say 'fair play', any more than you could give a pat on the back and say 'fair play' to the people who brought us e voting or PPARS.

paulm17781

Hamndegger wrote:

WOT have their line. Platform11 don't, and are sucking lemons.

Could you stop attacking Platform 11? I am a committee member and I have been nothing but curteous to you, could you give me the same respect?

As for sucking lemons.... If you feel the need to attack us as an organisation at every opportunity, we must be getting some attention somehow.

DerekP11

Hambo, my good man/woman,

You are very much entitled to defend and express the apparent merits of the WRC. Good luck to you. However, there is a common theme emulating from some of your posts and it relates to Platform 11. Ive addressed this before and you chose to ignore it. If you want to go on persisting with a P11 Vs the WRC, theme, then at least have the decency to credit the many members here, who have no association with P11 whatsoever and actually have minds of their own and are quite capable of forming an opinion on the WRC without us.

Just because P11 were the first to publically question the merits of the project, does not mean that we are the "defacto" voice for those who wish to question it themselves. P11 are about many more things than the WRC and we do not expend any unecessary energy on criticising it. Our web site and message board is evidence of that. Some members of P11 do decide to engage in the WRC debate here and thats probably because people like your goodself wish to discuss, ad nauseum, the issue. As PRO of P11, Im here in a capacity to express the opinion of the P11 organisation in relation to the WRC and defend it from misinformed or ill-judged criticism from the likes of you. In your world, it may be "friction", but in the real world its just another day of stating the unchallenged facts again and again, in the hope that someday, you might just understand where we are coming from. No doubt you won't. But careless remarks about P11, don't do you any favours. Read this thread and you can see why......People do think for themselves.

You know who I am, but none of us here know who you are. (conflict of interest thread.) I hope this "power" makes you feel good. Granted, many posters on this thread have not "declared" themselves, but your posts have demonstrated a very similar standpoint to that of WOT and if you are part of that Organisation, then you have done them no favours and perhaps you should come forth and declare yourself as so. But, hey, maybe your not. Maybe you just want to defend and promote the WRC. But either way, you havent offered anything positive in relation the the WRC and I had so much expectation.

Anyway, gotta go, the man from Del Monte is knockin at the door with a consignment of Lemons. We've a lot of members standing by to suck on them.:D