Western Rail Corridor

corktina

Schuhart wrote:

The WRC is about taking money out of your pocket and my pocket and wasting it. .

that says it for me.....

Transport21 Fan

Am I the only person who thinks there is going to be a silent scrapping of the WRC as outlined in T21 after the general election?

When you look at the work that is going into Midleton and then apply the same level of detail and costs towards Ennis-Athenry (which is the same thing on a much huger scale), then the Ennis-Athenry section seems very inexpensive by comparision. Something is not right here.

Either there is going to be a "revision" of the project after the election, or it'll be relaid on the cheap for a really lousy service like Limerick-Rosslare. This will fail to produce the decent service and therefore the passenger numbers (especially with the curve from Ennis pointing the wrong direction at Athenry ala Ballybrophy) and the Government will then announce that the WRC has failed to produce the passenger numbers and scrap the rest of the project to Claremorris.

Seems to me that with the money they are spending on Ennis-Athenry the proposed Limerick-Galway service is doomed to failure no matter what - it'll be typical 'sure it's a train isn't it!' CIE crap.

Anyone else starting to see the wood from the trees and what Cullen and Co. may be really up to with including the WRC in T21? If so, then it's a pretty brilliant strategy.

Schuhart

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Am I the only person who thinks there is going to be a silent scrapping of the WRC as outlined in T21 after the general election?

Given the probably that necessity will require a scaling down of decentralisation, and the fact that the leader of Fine Gael is from Mayo and publically committed both to decentralisation to Knock Airport and restoration of the full WRC, I would feel that there will be a political need to be seen to be doing lots of stuff in Mayo before, during and after the election.

Transport21 Fan wrote:

This will fail to produce the decent service and therefore the passenger numbers (especially with the curve from Ennis pointing the wrong direction at Athenry ala Ballybrophy) and the Government will then announce that the WRC has failed to produce the passenger numbers and scrap the rest of the project to Claremorris.

I would expect that the usage of the service will be irrelevant. Limerick-Waterford is not doing much business, yet there's no evidence of that causing any change of approach. If Athenry produces few passengers, the spin will be 'sure we always said the synergies would not be seen until the whole line is opened'. Any level of patronage will be spun as a success - 'Rail usage has increased by 1000% since the line opened' even if this percentage converts into one person driving to Athymon once a month increasing to ten people getting on the train in Athenry once a month.

monument

Transport21 Fan wrote:

Seems to me that with the money they are spending on Ennis-Athenry the proposed Limerick-Galway service is doomed to failure no matter what - it'll be typical 'sure it's a train isn't it!' CIE crap.

My god, have you not said once if not a number of times that you are in favour of the Galway – Limerick section? Now even it is “doomed to failure no matter what”!!!

This is more of what I was talking about in my last post, more black and white (“no matter what”), and sweeping statements of apparent fact, you go even further this time, you’re back tracking on past post which made your stance out to be balanced.

Now you’re even bringing your CIE grievances into the topic.

SeanW

I'm sure T21-fan will speak for himself when he gets the chance, but, my understanding of his view is that simply relaying the line as it stands will do feck all.

I and others have heard talk of 50 MPH running from Athenry to Ennis, similar to the existing Ennis-Limerick line. That quite frankly is lame, and there's no point in doing this at all unless it is to be done right, and a 19th century line reopened to a bare minimum standard isn't "right" it's just a reopening for the sake of it.

dowlingm

here's the thing.

Let's say IE opened Athenry-Tuam. Let's assume some other things - that the timings were convenient (see Nenagh) and that Tuam station carpark was chocka with punters sick of the bus. Let's assume that some kind of IR dispute didn't annoy said punters (see Mallow today) and that ridership was persistently high over a 12 month period. Let's also assume that some clued up individual decided to correlate car park regos and Taxsaver pass addresses and found a lot of these commuters were coming from within Claremorris' catchment rather than Tuam's.

Let's also assume a reasonably priced and effective method was found (maybe with a new alignment) to avoid the level crossing issues noted in Tuam such that extending to Claremorris was feasible and desirable. Let's assume Mayo Council got behind it and stuck some money into upgrading the network. How many Platform 11 types would oppose this? I think the answer is "not many". The same with extending Claremorris to Swinford, Swinford to Tubbercurry, Tubbercurry to Collooney. Nobody I can think of in P11 would oppose a successful WRC and urge its closure - so long as the success could be measured in happy punters, cars off the road, and a subsidy that was reasonable.

Here's the flip side. Supposing IE went did the above but the figures north of Tuam were disastrous. Worse than Limerick-Waterford. How many WRC people would say - "bloody hell, we've gone and created a disaster here. There's red ink all over the shop. Tumbleweed is blowing through Tubbercurry station. We should ask the Minister and IE to reduce service and concentrate on the bits that actually have custom." Would they act in the National Interest (TM)?

As a Dublin developer might say about receipts - "would they f*ck".

paulm17781

Dowlingm wrote:

Let's also assume a reasonably priced and effective method was found (maybe with a new alignment) to avoid the level crossing issues noted in Tuam such that extending to Claremorris was feasible and desirable. Let's assume Mayo Council got behind it and stuck some money into upgrading the network. How many Platform 11 types would oppose this? I think the answer is "not many". The same with extending Claremorris to Swinford, Swinford to Tubbercurry, Tubbercurry to Collooney. Nobody I can think of in P11 would oppose a successful WRC and urge its closure - so long as the success could be measured in happy punters, cars off the road, and a subsidy that was reasonable.

Spot on.

Transport21 Fan

SeanW wrote:

I'm sure T21-fan will speak for himself when he gets the chance, but, my understanding of his view is that simply relaying the line as it stands will do feck all.

You got it in one Sean.

Ham'nd'egger

monument wrote:

My god, have you not said once if not a number of times that you are in favour of the Galway – Limerick section? Now even it is “doomed to failure no matter what”!!!

This is more of what I was talking about in my last post, more black and white (“no matter what”), and sweeping statements of apparent fact, you go even further this time, you’re back tracking on past post which made your stance out to be balanced.

Now you’re even bringing your CIE grievances into the topic.

That's the whole theme of this, Monument. Grieveances and bitter feelings.

It's all sour grapes, not getting their way, we want this and that, and we will scream and scream till we are blue in the face! All one has to do is look at the P 11 forums and see how anti this anti that they all are. They won't look at any good in this project, simply because it's not what they want.

All you need do is look at their Navan campaign. The line is included in Transport 21 and next thing you know, they want Kingscourt and Oldcastle (Where?) as well. What next, Cattle wagons, loose coupled goods, the Fintona Tram? Drumm Cars? Or heaven forbid, Metro Vicks C Class revivals?

John R

Hamndegger wrote:

That's the whole theme of this, Monument. Grieveances and bitter feelings.

There is a lot of that, mainly from some people in the West who think that because a rail line is built in Dublin then they are somehow being hard done by if one isn't opened in their region.

Hamndegger wrote:

It's all sour grapes, not getting their way, we want this and that, and we will scream and scream till we are blue in the face! All one has to do is look at the P 11 forums and see how anti this anti that they all are. They won't look at any good in this project, simply because it's not what they want.

Are you actually reading ANY of their replies? They have clearly stated their reasons for not supporting the WRC and given equally clear conditions they believe should be met before a rail line in that area is a reasonable proposal.

If you believe they are wrong how about you answer their criticisms of the project rather than trying to sling mud at them. I can tell you now that the approach you are taking impresses nobody here, we have read it all many times before.

Hamndegger wrote:

All you need do is look at their Navan campaign. The line is included in Transport 21 and next thing you know, they want Kingscourt and Oldcastle (Where?) as well. What next, Cattle wagons, loose coupled goods, the Fintona Tram? Drumm Cars? Or heaven forbid, Metro Vicks C Class revivals?

AFAIK any mention of opening beyond Navan on their messageboards is merely a discussion between posters and not necessarily P11 policy. The fact you may not have heard about a particular town does not mean it is not worthy of consideration, there are plenty of towns in Leinster that 10 years ago barely warranted a once-a-week bus that are now growing at enormous rates to levels where rail links are a realistic option.

markpb

Hamndegger wrote:

That's the whole theme of this, Monument. Grieveances and bitter feelings.

It's all sour grapes, not getting their way, we want this and that, and we will scream and scream till we are blue in the face! All one has to do is look at the P 11 forums and see how anti this anti that they all are. They won't look at any good in this project, simply because it's not what they want.

All you need do is look at their Navan campaign. The line is included in Transport 21 and next thing you know, they want Kingscourt and Oldcastle (Where?) as well. What next, Cattle wagons, loose coupled goods, the Fintona Tram? Drumm Cars? Or heaven forbid, Metro Vicks C Class revivals?

I don't see any point in continuing this discussion with you because you never bother to answer anyone's questions with serious answers, you cite constantly to some sort of P11 embitterment which no-one else notices and you pull stuff like the Kingscourt extension (which P11 have constantly said should not be done) out of the air and wave it around, showing your own lack of willingness to listen, be reasonable or debate on any proper level.

There are good reasons why the WRC should be done and equally good reasons why it should not. Those reasons have nothing to do with P11, Navan or lemon sucking anti-culchie rail fans but you dont wan't to hear them because you believe the west needs "the poor old WRC".

Navan Junction

Hamndegger wrote:

The line is included in Transport 21 and next thing you know, they want Kingscourt and Oldcastle (Where?) as well.

Probably aimed at MOT rather than P11? If at MOT then maybe a few points should be clarified.

Meath on Track would like to see Kingscourt maintained to prevent abandonment, and to preserve the Kells alignment.

Remember Kingscourt had it's last train but just 5 years ago before it's closure, and had substantial works carried out on it. Preserving the line makes sense.

Kells appears in the context of infrastructure beyond Transport 21 on the Meath on Track site. And re preserving alignments (even to Oldcastle) I doubt you would have a problem with that.

What is said on forums tends to individual opinion so maybe even in the context of what is or isn't in P11 forums, I wouldn't be in too much of a hurry to put it as any group's position.

Hamndegger wrote:

What next, Cattle wagons, loose coupled goods, the Fintona Tram? Drumm Cars? Or heaven forbid, Metro Vicks C Class revivals?

Eh, no thanks. More suited to heritage than a commuter project, not that there is any harm in that.

But maybe you have a point - maybe Navan does have heritage and tourism potential. Close enough to Dublin, in the county regarded as Ireland's heritage capital....

Good thinking Bosco - that's the type of logic that makes a railway viable.;)

DerekP11

Hamndegger wrote:

That's the whole theme of this, Monument. Grieveances and bitter feelings.

It's all sour grapes, not getting their way, we want this and that, and we will scream and scream till we are blue in the face! All one has to do is look at the P 11 forums and see how anti this anti that they all are. They won't look at any good in this project, simply because it's not what they want.

All you need do is look at their Navan campaign. The line is included in Transport 21 and next thing you know, they want Kingscourt and Oldcastle (Where?) as well. What next, Cattle wagons, loose coupled goods, the Fintona Tram? Drumm Cars? Or heaven forbid, Metro Vicks C Class revivals?

Grievences? Bitter feelings? Sour grapes? Bit hypocritical, don't you think?(However,your knowledge of fuit is becoming very apparent. Well done. Its good for you.)

Glad to see you read the P11 forums. The more the merrier.

As for our "Navan campaign". Can you please point out where P11 advocated the reopening of the Kingscourt and Oldcastle lines? This is news to me.

The rest of your post was just drivel from an idle mind that is hell bent on having an ineffective "go", at P11. You ignore the sensible posts, but I'll try again anyway. If you have a problem with P11, then join our board and discuss it there to your hearts content. Stop boring non-P11 members on this forum, with your pitiful and irrelevent rants against the organisation. If that option isn't good enough for you then give me a call and I'll discuss "your" grievences with you. We could even meet and have an open and frank discussion about the WRC. Your views, my views and the policy of P11. As PRO, I always do my best to make myself available,always listen to both sides of an argument and actually have the ability to "agree to differ", which is something I did at a meeting with WOT last year.

In the meantime, keep eating the fruit and reading the P11 forums. The P11 witchdoctor assures me that this is a healthy regime.

Schuhart

monument wrote:

My god, have you not said once if not a number of times that you are in favour of the Galway – Limerick section? Now even it is “doomed to failure no matter what”

I think Monument has made some good and valid points on the thread, and in this post I think has half stumbled on a point worth exploring.

There seems to be a tendancy in a lot of the pro-WRC posts (and similar debates) to give a sort of iconic significance to the reopening of the line. Some of the posts have a stream of consciousness feel. 'Rail is good. Develop the West is good. Therefore rail in the West is good.' without much thought to the concrete proposition that the WRC represents which is more 'slow train no good for nobody, East or West.'

If the WRC is seen as an icon, then no-one really bothers about quality. I think this springs from T21F's post. Possibly a rail line linking Galway to Limerick would be a useful addition to regional infrastructure, if it allowed people to move between the two cities much quicker than by road. Possibly the way to deliver that is by ignoring the existing rail lines, picking a new route and all the expense that goes with it. So maybe we'd end up spending a couple of hundred million just linking the two cities. But at least there would be something to show for it - i.e. a genuinely fast transport link.

I take Monument's post that WRC supporters will get defensive if they feel 'outsiders' are talking down to them (and I hope that's not putting words in your mouth - I took that to be your point in an earlier post.) At the same time, the WOT campaign looks to be massively misdirected. If the campaign is incapable of internal reform, what engagement is possible to suggest its needs a change in focus? Because if developing the West is truly something they want to see, surely they would prefer to working at something that might actually achieve a result.

After rambling on this long, I'd better post it and see what happens.

DerekP11

Schuhart,

Your post is excellent and really addresses the concept that linking Limerick and Galway by rail, should be looked at in terms of a system that delivers a speed driven product. The current road route (N18) is actually shorter than the existing rail alignment. With planned investment, it will become a very efficient mode of transport for the private car and bus. Any competing rail service must, at the very least match, the road journey. We'll have to wait for the Ennis - Athenry WRC section to happen before we can judge conclusively.(but history suggests otherwise) As the Government have signalled their intention to reopen this line, one can only assume that the words, "it links Limerick and Galway", have "inspired" our politicians. However, while it does indeed link the two cities, (by default) a deviation around ardrahan would have been a useful consideration. (my Oranmore transport hub suggestion, earlier in this thread is an example of that)

Overall, the lack of a real study into the potential of the WRC and the benefits of realigning or re-routing parts of it, has contributed to the negative debate about its proposed reopening. A study in this area would be a visionary development for public transport along the west coast. Unfortunetly, WOT didn't explore this aspect. It appears to be generally accepted that because the line is where it is, that this is enough.

There have been many comparisons to the proposed reopening of the Navan line in recent weeks. P11 supports this endeavour as a matter of expediancy, because, Navan is currently generating a huge amount of Dublin bound traffic and the original line was specifically built to "link" Dublin and Navan. P11 has even proposed running limited services via Drogheda on the existing infrastructure as a short term money saving venture that delivers immediate results. This proposal has met a brick wall, yet the cost of doing it is actually less than reopening Ennis - Athenry.(P11 estimated 60 million, including new stations. All based on IE records)) But IE have claimed it would cost €100 million!! According to T21, Ennis - Athenry is costing approx. €75 million!!!! The Navan - Drogheda section is shorter than Ennis - Athenry and is operational. Somethings not right somewhere.

In my opinion, the WRC should be subjected to an independent study that looks at planning, the current route and possible deviations that would contribute to its success. Its appearance as a major infrastructural project within T21, without any professional evaluation exploring all options, is a sign that politicians continue to influence rail projects. (every report, including the "undoctored" McCann report found too many faults with it.)That is not the way to do things and will always be to the detriment of immediate and easier justified rail projects.

The WRC as it is, will never be an integrated and efficient mode of transport. Id love to see it done right and take its turn in line, with more pressing issues across the rail development spectrum. But as things stand, P11 have no choice but to question its potential and promote other projects ahead of it.

gjim

750 passengers per day, that's 5 days a week, and a year has 52 weeks, so equates to 195,000 passenger trips. Nowhere near the 26 million of Dart, but still a hefty amount

Cop yourself on. The capital costs alone of the project will mean that each of the 200k journeys a year will effectively be subsidised to the tune of 80 euros each. Assuming an operating loss per year of 10m, that's another 50 euros per passenger journey, giving a grand total of 130 euros per passenger per journey. This is nothing less than a joke and anyone who defends it is a gobsh*te. It would literally be cheaper for the government to pay for someone to operate a helicoper service offering trips between Sligo and Galway for a tenner. If this actually goes ahead, it deserves to be criticised as one of the most stupid government projects of the last ten years.

Ham'nd'egger

gjim wrote:

Cop yourself on. The capital costs alone of the project will mean that each of the 200k journeys a year will effectively be subsidised to the tune of 80 euros each. Assuming an operating loss per year of 10m, that's another 50 euros per passenger journey, giving a grand total of 130 euros per passenger per journey. This is nothing less than a joke and anyone who defends it is a gobsh*te. It would literally be cheaper for the government to pay for someone to operate a helicoper service offering trips between Sligo and Galway for a tenner. If this actually goes ahead, it deserves to be criticised as one of the most stupid government projects of the last ten years.

The whole point about the WRC is that it is not going to be a profit making cash exercise, though it does need a certain amount of trade in to justify itself. If we assume the average fare paid by 195,000 pax is €20, the receipts for the line will be €3.9 million.

Not a lot in the barrel mind, but the greater part of the WRC is that we need to take into account the passengers who will use the line will travel via the mainlines off it, eg Galway, Limerick, Westport or (eventually Sligo) to access other parts of the network. So, say, people in Tuam or Gort or Swinford or whereever it is on the WRC can use rail to get to Dublin, Waterford, Cork, etc without needing to part travel on bus to meet the train. The south will be opened up to the west and mid west. As it is, if you needed to travel to say, Westport to Cork, you are changing at Portarlington and waiting until God knows when for a connection. Ditto Ennis to Mullingar, ditto Tobercurry to Limerick. It should allow more areas to be connected to the network and it should give them better choice as to where they can travel to by rail (meaning more passengers), and hopefully it will take a lot of cars off the roads, a plus in environmental eyes.

It is the openings and potential flexibility it gives to rail users, and more importantly, potential rail users in Ireland that the WRC will be good, in my opinion, as well as opening up the West a little more. I am certain that there is a greater good in opening the line that was neglected when it was closed, a good that report after report wasn't asked to brief on. We are looking at huge rises in train frequency on all lines in the next 3 years so extra services again has got to be a good thing, even if it will cost more cash. And while I will say that there is plenty of lines that need to be opened again, like Navan and Middleton, this will be a good move for the West and Ireland given time.

See, I can be constructive at times, guys.... Can I have my P 11 baseball cap now?

gjim

he whole point about the WRC is that it is not going to be a profit making cash exercise, though it does need a certain amount of trade in to justify itself. If we assume the average fare paid by 195,000 pax is €20, the receipts for the line will be €3.9 million.

Sure, nobody is suggesting that rail has to be run at a financial profit but 130 euro per passenger journey???? It is simply indefensible - just think about it. You could give every man, woman and child in Mayo AND Roscommon a free return flight to the south of France EVERY YEAR. My helicoptor suggestion was only half a joke; such a service would be cheaper for the government, at least six times faster and could provide a more frequent service than the WRC. You could provide every household in Mayo, Galway and Roscommon with free broadband and still have change. This is the level of folly involved with this project. I spend a lot of time in Mayo and Galway - I've a lot of family from and living there - and no-one will use this thing. The west is simply f*cked if this is the sort of thing they blow government largess on. It's so indefensible, I'm immediately suspicious of the motives of anyone defending it. It will do nothing for the west and will seriously damage the cause of rail in the country.

dowlingm

when the Mk4s are fully deployed it's likely Westport-Cork connections will get better - as it is connections via Portarlington can be less than six hours -

Westport-Portarlington 18:05 20:54
Portarlington-Cork 21:42 23:50 [5h45 total]

Westport-Claremorris-Athenry-Limerick-Limerick Junction-Cork will be hard pressed to make less than that unless there is a cross-country no-change service. At the moment there isn't even direct Cork-Limerick.

Transport21 Fan

I know who Ham and Egger is now. It's can't be anybody else really.

Back to planet earth...

I was reading Modern Railways today and there was a very interesting article by Dick Fearn were he talks about "there is now a major debate on the Western Rail Corridor raging in Ireland". He sounded almost relieved that some sense in some quarters is finally prevailing.

In the same issue interstingly enough is a piece about reopening a closed railway line from Milton Keynes to Cambridge/Oxford. Apart from the fact the region is already very heavily populated, there was also some stats relating to the numbers of new houses being planned in these towns along the route of the closed railway line and they were absolutely collossal figures by Irish standards (even by Dublin/Leinster figures) and yet the case to reopen this line is still only just talk with the UK government being only lukewarm about the idea.

Compared to the WRC the Milton Keynes-Cambridge/Oxford rail corridor reaches a massive commuting population and yet, it still has not made the convincing case for reopening. It really goes to show how absolutely bonkers the WRC idea is overall.

Ham'nd'egger

Transport21 Fan wrote:

I know who Ham and Egger is now. It's can't be anybody else really..

Ok, give you 3 guesses then, €20 if your right:cool:

DerekP11

Hamndegger wrote:

Ok, give you 3 guesses then, €20 if your right:cool:

I don't need three guesses. Please don't tempt me. You won't do yourself any favours, if your "exposed".

I'd quit now, if I were you.

murphaph

I wonder what passenger projections egger would make for us?




Let's all go to the lobby, let's all go to the lobby, let's all go to the lobby, to get ourselves some snacks.

paulm17781

Hamndegger wrote:

See, I can be constructive at times, guys.... Can I have my P 11 baseball cap now?

Care to explain your anti-P11 agenda yet? I have asked you to chill out and show us the same respect we've shown you but you'd rather have your rants. Well done, have a lollipop.

Transport21 Fan

Hamndegger wrote:

Ok, give you 3 guesses then, €20 if your right:cool:

You would have to earn €20 first.

Ham'nd'egger

DerekP11 wrote:

I don't need three guesses. Please don't tempt me. You won't do yourself any favours, if your "exposed".

I'd quit now, if I were you.

No, by all means, guess away and expose me. Might just make it €30 if your feeling brave...

dermo88

Ham N Egger

If you are so careful about the small matter of 30 Euro, then I find it contradictory that you are so willing to waste of someone elses 300 Million Euro or more on a project that will bring a railway through a region that will generate little or no demand.

You have no credibility, and if you support this project then you have clearly got the financial accountability of Robert Maxwell smoking a spliff.

Meanwhile, the people of Navan are told to wait, and have to stump up development levies DESPITE having paid for it many times over with road taxes, stamp duty, VAT, and income tax already, the people in Dublin are crammed into their trains, and you continue on your victimised deprived rural Mayo agenda. Take a hint, and cop on. Railways work where people live, and people travel where they want to travel. Railways do not work because you plant a line in a sparsely populated region, and you expect people to use it because its there. The people in that region will use the mode of travel best suited to their needs. For local journeys to their shops from their houses, often 2 or 3 km from town, the majority will use cars.

They won't be hopping on a bicycle and putting their bike in the railcar or guards van and going mountain biking, or the likes.

The sooner someone in Heuston decides to dispatch a lifting train to remove this, the better. Can you imagine the clamour today if the North Kerry branch line was never lifted in 1988. I dread to think about it.

corktina

dermo88 wrote:

Ham N Egger

If you are so careful about the small matter of 30 Euro, then I find it contradictory that you are so willing to waste of someone elses 300 Million Euro or more on a project that will bring a railway through a region that will generate little or no demand.

You have no credibility, and if you support this project then you have clearly got the financial accountability of Robert Maxwell smoking a spliff.

Meanwhile, the people of Navan are told to wait, and have to stump up development levies DESPITE having paid for it many times over with road taxes, stamp duty, VAT, and income tax already, the people in Dublin are crammed into their trains, and you continue on your victimised deprived rural Mayo agenda. Take a hint, and cop on. Railways work where people live, and people travel where they want to travel. Railways do not work because you plant a line in a sparsely populated region, and you expect people to use it because its there. The people in that region will use the mode of travel best suited to their needs. For local journeys to their shops from their houses, often 2 or 3 km from town, the majority will use cars.

They won't be hopping on a bicycle and putting their bike in the railcar or guards van and going mountain biking, or the likes.

The sooner someone in Heuston decides to dispatch a lifting train to remove this, the better. Can you imagine the clamour today if the North Kerry branch line was never lifted in 1988. I dread to think about it.

absolutely!

gobdaw

Just a random thought, and crayons on maps stuff.

If it makes sense to join Sligo by rail to Limerick, etc as per West-on Track (and for me, the jury is still very much out), would it not make much more sense to provide that connection via an entirely new alignment direct from Sligo to Ballina. The Burma Road alignment requires a new track plus unknown remedial work to the track bed. CPO/squatters rights/driveways/excessive level crossings/low train speed attainability has all been identified as minuses with the Claremorris/Collonney section of the WRC. The Claremorris southward sections are less contentious. The poor population density would be addressed by direct from Sligo to Ballina. These locations should generate a higher passenger demand having a better population cluster (Sligo 19,735; Ballina 9,647 as of 2002). Such a route could continue via Ballina/Claremorris to Athenry, Ennis and Limerick.

Always assuming that real demand exists for such a route
.
Consideration of this idea by is probably not likely seeing as how the Mullingar/Athlone line is still a non-runner with better population cluster and better economic and social value.

popebenny16

It's nice to go on holidays for a few weeks and find this thread is still going, like Coronation Street, it'll always be with us.

But it's nice that ham and egger has joined us and I'm looking forward with great expecation to seeing the financial, ecominic and social benifits of the line. Now, the real ones, not the sort you'd find on the back of a John Hynde Postcard or in the world of dreams.

EG, I think it was H&E who said above (couldnt be bothered to check) that the National Spacial Strategy and the Government Decentralisation Plans will be one of the reasons why the WRC will be such a winning success.

Firstly, The NSS was destroryed by the decentralisation plan, for the latter contradicts the former withiut the NSS any WRC is doomed.

Secondly, have a look at what the Civil Servants who post here think of Decentralistion over on the politics board.

Thirdly, remember that the hubs in the NSS are already served by rail links.

Fourthy remember that only a minute amount of Civil Servants want to move.

My personal view is that we have to think about what railways are supposed to do. They are supposed to move lots of people and lots of things. At the moment the T21 plan and the Government intentions are that phase one of the WRC get the go aahead, and I think that is fine, it fulfills the criterea of moving an apprecable amount of people. Afterwards I just doen see the criteria being fulfilled, which is a pity but there you go.

Navan, meanwhile, deserves it more than phase two of the WRC even on enviromental grounds alone. Limerick-Nenagh-Roscrea deserve it more as well but for other reasons. Very slowly we are seeing the emergance of a decent rail system in Ireland, both heavy and light. the only problem is that politics is getting in the way.

I look forward to the day when passengers on the WRC phase one start contacting Platform11 wondering why their 2700 railcar breaks down, is late, is cold and why the seats numb their arses and the underfloor engine deafens their ears - we will be there to help, after all the politicans have buggered off, believe me.