Western Rail Corridor

Schuhart

nollaig wrote:

There is a bypass road planned which would eliminate 1 (maybe two???) of those level crossings, but the bypass would cross the rail line at another point. It wont be built for yers anyways but you'd wonder do the people writing reports etc. about the wrc know these things?

I know that the issue of the number of level crossings has been given a certain promenance. However, surely the key issue is that the expected volumes simply would not justify the investment, or even any part of it. You could double the expected volumes and still not really have a case. Which leaves me still wondering the basis for your confidence in the usefulness of reopening the line to Tuam. Can you elaborate?

Ham'nd'egger

Transport21 Fan wrote:

There was still the odd freight train back in the 1990's.

The initial runnings of the timber trains were via Tuam, Ennis and Clonmel into Waterford, until a little bird let slip that the Athlone route was somewhat quicker. Some bagged trains also ran this line to Ballina via Galway and Tuam, and liners would have been diverted this way during track maintainance.

On a sidenote, the last Guinness train left Westport recently, thus bring the frieght traffic in Mayo to 3 timers a day ex Westport and 2 from Ballina. Ballina also receives Oil trains which I understand come in about once a week.

Transport21 Fan

Hamndegger wrote:

The initial runnings of the timber trains were via Tuam, Ennis and Clonmel into Waterford, until a little bird let slip that the Athlone route was somewhat quicker.

Which is why the WRC is not needed for freight access. The current network does the job fine.

I think it's more or less universally accepted by this point that railreight is dead in Ireland and never coming back.

It's all commuter rail from now on, and why not - the IE network has no other long term function really. If any part the WRC has an reason to reopen, then commuters it is. Same for rest of the network.

Ham'nd'egger

Transport21, distance wise it is longer, but the logic in going via Limerick was so that engines and wagons were able to be changed over in Limerick instead of relying on Inchicore all the time; as well it utilised quieter track and freed up slots on the Kildare corridor.

As it stands, there is not a lot of freight left on any part of the network. As a nation, we don't have all that much heavy ore and mineral traffic; Navan being the sole notable exception. Timber nowadays makes up the most of the traffic, Beer is finished in September, Beet a year earlier. That said, I am aware that at least one international freight haulage company are intending to enter the rail freight market here at some stage in 2007, I wil try find out more on it when I can.

Navan Junction

Hamndegger wrote:

As a nation, we don't have all that much heavy ore and mineral traffic; Navan being the sole notable exception.

And that has already closed down once in the last few years, though in fairness it was up to 4 trains each a way a few months ago.

Zinc is at a premium at the moment, but as shown by the 25 year wait for zinc to become a scarce commodity, the future is uncertain..

It's ironic that Navan Drogheda is the busiest line in the country for freight, and they won't stick a few passenger trains on it.

MarkoP11

Distance wise its only 15-20 miles
Its way faster via Athlone since the track is good and speed limits are 70+ mph so freight can run at full speed which is 50mph if lucky
Its cheaper via Athlone and Portalington since the line is open anyway, freight is hemorrhaging money
There are weight restrictions on the WRC /Limerick Waterford which restrict locomotive type and speed
Ballina freight services go via Kildare and on to Waterford and doesn't reach Inchicore or effect suburban services
Oil trains exist only for internal deliveries, not revenue earning
Waterford is still a loco depot changing locomotives there is normal

I know the private company and despite claims elsewhere they are a tiny player and don't in fact operate freight trains in the UK

Navan Junction

Schuhart wrote:

There was an item on RTE 2 news yesterday - something about people cycling some rail based contraption from Ennis to Sligo as part of the campaign. I can't see anything on the RTE website about it, but the Green Party seemed to have something to do with it.

Irish Times, 22.07.06

'RAIL BIKE' ON WESTERN CORRIDOR

Madam, - Cllr Brian Meaney, in promoting his "rail bike" publicity stunt along the Western Rail Corridor route (The Irish Times, July 13th), is guilty, at the very least, of gross irresponsibility.

Our principal concern is not even the fact that a dormant line, like Ennis-Athenry where this stunt was staged, could have Iarnród Éireann track inspection or maintenance vehicles operating, or the impact of his actions on public road level crossings or main line trains at Athenry or Claremorris.

Instead, our greatest concern is the appalling example set by an elected representative in trespassing on a railway line, when we commit considerable resources to preventing trespass, particularly amongst the young.

No young person viewing the photos or TV footage of this ridiculous publicity stunt will differentiate between a line that is used or disused, and his actions appear to legitimise trespass and stunts of a similar nature amongst the minds of the more impressionable. Trespass can kill or maim, and has done so many times in the past.

It is the families and friends of the victims and our staff, and not Cllr Meaney, that have had to face the aftermath of such horrific incidents, so perhaps it is easier for him to disregard these concerns in his pursuit of publicity. It is depressing that a councillor in his 40s must be given the same message as a 14-year-old: railway lines are not playgrounds. - Yours, etc,

BARRY KENNY, Manager, Corporate Communications, Iarnród Éireann, Connolly Station, Dublin 1.

Schuhart

Is it just me, or does the wikipedia article on the WRC seem to have been infected by a dose of verbatim quotes from WOT? I remember looking at it a while back, and feeling the entry was a reasonably balanced account which really just set out the opposing perspectives on the project without judgement. When you consider how daft the proposal is, giving equal weight to both sides was an act of supreme kindness.

I looked in now just to see if anyone had added anything about the papers released under Freedom of Information, and the entry seemed to have changed with an amount of undigested quotes giving the usual WOT confusion that if something is not economically justified, it means the social benefits are not there either.

Am I losing it? Is it just that my perception of the WRC has hardened or is the entry now biased?

oscarBravo

Navan Junction wrote:

Instead, our greatest concern is the appalling example set by an elected representative in trespassing on a railway line, when we commit considerable resources to preventing trespass, particularly amongst the young.

...

BARRY KENNY, Manager, Corporate Communications, Iarnród Éireann, Connolly Station, Dublin 1.

Whoah. I saw a news story on the Greens' stunt last week sometime, and I'm certain they said they'd obtained permission from Iarnród Éireann for it. Were they lying, or is IÉ confused?

MarkoP11

They asked and were refused as far as I know

Point to note is the one of the top cause of delays is people being struck by trains

Transport21 Fan

Bravo Barry Kenny!

Although I have little respect for the toxic and destructive general culture within the CIE rail unions as a whole, I do have the greatest of sympathy for any train driver who hits either a sucide jumper or hits a tresspasser. It must be a horrible thing to come to terms with as a human body will explode into a millions pieces upon impact by a train moving over 80KMs and I have heard stories of drivers in the USA being splattered with human entrails and blood in some cases. I can't imainge how a person could go back to work driving a train after such a thing.

I know behind every suicide train jumper there is another human tragic story which brings a person to this point, but maybe in their final moments it they could see the trauma they are inflicting on the train driver before the do it.

Anyways, that letter by Barry Kenny is spot on. I am glad he gave it up large to these railbike crusties good and proper. He is sounding more and more like me everyday. One more thing to check off on the list I made out in 2003.

I always knew I would be running railways in this country one day. I am just amazed that it happened so soon.

lostexpectation

a rail bike on the WRC when did this happen pics/ links


this sorta thing ? http://www.hellskitchenmuseum.com/bike.htm

nollaig

I know that the issue of the number of level crossings has been given a certain promenance. However, surely the key issue is that the expected volumes simply would not justify the investment, or even any part of it. You could double the expected volumes and still not really have a case. Which leaves me still wondering the basis for your confidence in the usefulness of reopening the line to Tuam. Can you elaborate?

Well, in the census of 2002, Tuam had a population of 5847. It has grown quite substantially since then, Are the new census figures out???
If you look at the current Westport - Dublin line, Only Castlebar, Athlone & Tullamore have larger populations. Tullamore really is the only one where people would commute from, yeah? There would be people from Tullamore commuting to Dublin. If Tuam opened and if the trains run at times which would make commuting to Galway reletively easy, then surely it would work??? There is a big big incentive for peopleto get the train as in the last year or so, traffic has got considerably worse in Tuam to add to the misery that already existed around the Claregalway area. Buses between Galway & Tuam are often well packed with people, could a train offer a more comfortable (& quicker??, I dont know how long would it take a train to travel from Tuam to Athenry?) method of getting to work? I think many would take that option. Train stations are ideally located in Tuam & Galway, so why not?

But I do not know how many passengers are required to justify it? How much would it cost for to re-open the line between Athenry & Tuam? How many new staff would be required? Stuff like that, I jhave no idea about.

dowlingm

Tuam "rural area" (which is Tuam, its suburbs and hinterlands) was 27,514 in 2002. It is now 30,688.

Tuam Urban went down from 3,104 to 2,743, Tuam Rural rose from 3,465 to 4,805 (both of these are included in the 30688 figure).

Page 72 of the preliminary 2006 report at cso.ie.

Schuhart

nollaig wrote:

But I do not know how many passengers are required to justify it? How much would it cost for to re-open the line between Athenry & Tuam? How many new staff would be required? Stuff like that, I jhave no idea about.

I'll try to set it out again.

The McCann report suggests that it would cost 35 million to reinstate the Athenry-Tuam portion of the WRC.

If this investment was to be as worthwhile as the reinstatement of the Dunboyne rail line, then you would need to see, pro rata, about 500,000 journeys per annum. So I would suggest if you want a ballpark figure to carry around in your head, its a few hundred thousand.

Now, if you take the precedent of Limerick-Ennis it would see to attract about 50,000 bona fide commuters. The rest of the traffic relates to Ennis-Dublin. So, ballpark, this is suggestive that Tuam might have about a tenth of what would be regarded as a viable passenger load.

And, as has been pointed out, Dunboyne is not expected to break even financially. I take it Limerick-Ennis make no money either, but I don't know if any figures are published on that. Buses, on the other hand, run without any subsidy so they are really the first port of call as a public transport option. When that option is exhausted you might then look to other methods.

I also think that planning for long distance commutes like this is hardly a basis for proper regional development. It only encourages the type of sprawl that has us wondering how to manage a 'Dublin' that spreads all over Leinster.

So, on the face of it, there's no reason either for confidence in the feasibility of Tuam-Galway, or any feeling of it being desireable as a development.

nollaig

The McCann report suggests that it would cost 35 million to reinstate the Athenry-Tuam portion of the WRC.

But this just brings me back to where did they get this figure from? Is there any contributor here that could even give me a rough breakdown on how it could cost this much? I have to say that I'm astonished it could cost so much. Then again, I know nothing about implementing a new railway line, so i'm sure theres costs that I havent even thought about.

Now, if you take the precedent of Limerick-Ennis it would see to attract about 50,000 bona fide commuters. The rest of the traffic relates to Ennis-Dublin. So, ballpark, this is suggestive that Tuam might have about a tenth of what would be regarded as a viable passenger load.

Could the same not be said about Tuam-Dublin???

I also think that planning for long distance commutes like this is hardly a basis for proper regional development. It only encourages the type of sprawl that has us wondering how to manage a 'Dublin' that spreads all over Leinster.

Tuam - Galway is hardly a long distance commute???

Schuhart

nollaig wrote:

But this just brings me back to where did they get this figure from? Is there any contributor here that could even give me a rough breakdown on how it could cost this much? I have to say that I'm astonished it could cost so much. Then again, I know nothing about implementing a new railway line, so i'm sure theres costs that I havent even thought about.

Can I point out that no-one is contesting this figure, so it hardly needs that much scrutiny.

nollaig wrote:

Could the same not be said about Tuam-Dublin???

How do people get to Dublin from Tuam at present? What advantage would rail offer over that?

nollaig wrote:

Tuam - Galway is hardly a long distance commute???

Yes, I'm suggesting 20 miles is too long to commute. The fact that we could contemplate that as a reasonable distance sort of shows how out of line our perceptions have got.

nollaig

Can I point out that no-one is contesting this figure, so it hardly needs that much scrutiny.

Well, I am contesting it! So, actually I think it does require so much scrutiny. As I said, i know nothing about re-opening railway lines and the costs associated with it. But Just because, a report says a figure without backing it up, then I am simply not oging to believe it. I'd also like to know that after the initial cost of re-opening it, how much would it cost to run? If you omit the initial start-up costs, then how many passengers are required to make it viable?

How do people get to Dublin from Tuam at present? What advantage would rail offer over that?

I'd imagine most would drive to Galway, get the train from there. Therefore, advantage would be to avoid major traffic delay and parking problems as well as a reduced journey time. I admit though, that not many would use the rail service from Tuam - Dublin regularly, Just like, not many use the rail service from Westport/Claremorris/Castlebar regularly.

Yes, I'm suggesting 20 miles is too long to commute. The fact that we could contemplate that as a reasonable distance sort of shows how out of line our perceptions have got.

Well, Whether you like it or not, People are commuting over 20 miles. So I dont really see your point here.

corktina

i would say most Tuam people wantint to go to Dublin by rial would drive to Athenry to catch the train....however I would say that far more would just drive to Dublin.....hardly a long journey is it......and motorway gets longer all the time....

Schuhart

nollaig wrote:

Well, I am contesting it!

With respect, you seem to be advocating the reopening of the Tuam rail line without any justification, and simply contesting generally accepted facts when they suggest no justification is possible. Do I take it that you have no reason to support the reopening of the Tuam rail line, other than people in Tuam would like to have the rail line as a totem. That’s all very well, but it hardly convinces innocent bystanders of the need to commit funding to it.

nollaig wrote:

I admit though, that not many would use the rail service from Tuam - Dublin regularly.

I have no problem accepting this.

nollaig wrote:

Just like, not many use the rail service from Westport/Claremorris/Castlebar regularly.

Indeed, some have questioned the need for quite so many little used stops on our existing mainline rail services.

nollaig wrote:

People are commuting over 20 miles. So I dont really see your point here.

The point is that not enough people are doing it to justify catering for it with a rail service and, in any case, the real need is to put public transport solutions into the cities which should be where future population growth is concentrated.

Little Fecker

Schuhart wrote:

And, as has been pointed out, Dunboyne is not expected to break even financially. I take it Limerick-Ennis make no money either, but I don't know if any figures are published on that. Buses, on the other hand, run without any subsidy so they are really the first port of call as a public transport option. When that option is exhausted you might then look to other methods.

Buses do run with a subsidy. It is the tax money put in to building and maintaining the roads. This is usually conveniently forgotten by anti rail advocates. For an apples to apples comparison the operational costs of running a train minus the rail costs should be compared to the operational costs of running a bus minus the road costs. Alternatively include the rail and road costs into the equation - rail 1.5 million a mile, roads 3 to 10 million a mile

Schuhart

The tax money collected in VRT, motor tax and fuel duties more than covers the cost of building and maintaining the roads, even before tolling is considered. This is usually conveniently forgotten by anti road advocates.

I cannot speak for everyone who thinks the WRC is pure bunkum, but I can say I'm not an anti rail advocate. I'm an anti wasting taxpayers money on things that are simply stupid.

nollaig

The point is that not enough people are doing it to justify catering for it with a rail service

Hmm, Well, this goes back to my first point, How many pople are required to justify it?

With respect, you seem to be advocating the reopening of the Tuam rail line without any justification, and simply contesting generally accepted facts when they suggest no justification is possible.

What generally accepted facts?

Schuhart

nollaig wrote:

Hmm, Well, this goes back to my first point, How many pople are required to justify it?

I’ve already suggested to you, most recently in this post above that a ballpark rule of thumb would be a few hundred thousand for the level of investment required. I’ve also suggested that, in addition to the IE commissioned study, practical experience of Limerick Ennis suggests that you won’t see the colour of that in Tuam. I don’t understand the need for me to keep repeating this point.

nollaig wrote:

What generally accepted facts?

The figure of €35 million stated in McCann does not seem to be contested by IE or WOT, who participated in the review, or P11. In fact, apart from you I’m not aware of anyone feeling it is an unreasonable estimate, and your only reason for querying it seems to be that you can appreciate it is too much to pay for the likely benefit.

There seems to be reasonable information available that suggests the WRC, or any part of it, is simply pointless. On the other hand, you seem to have no basis for your earlier expressed confidence that reopening the Tuam line would make sense.

nollaig

I’ve already suggested to you, most recently in this post above that a ballpark rule of thumb would be a few hundred thousand for the level of investment required. I’ve also suggested that, in addition to the IE commissioned study, practical experience of Limerick Ennis suggests that you won’t see the colour of that in Tuam. I don’t understand the need for me to keep repeating this point.

But Once again, Where does this figure come from? Has an extensive feasibilty study been carried out to come to this figure??? I have no problem with the WRC not being re-opened, if I could see pure facts in front of me. However, my opinion is that a properly marketed service that could cater for commuters between Tuam & galway could be a success.

The figure of €35 million stated in McCann does not seem to be contested by IE or WOT, who participated in the review, or P11. In fact, apart from you I’m not aware of anyone feeling it is an unreasonable estimate, and your only reason for querying it seems to be that you can appreciate it is too much to pay for the likely benefit.

No, My reason for querying it is that, the report does not say how it came to this figure. Like I said before, I have no idea of the costs of re-opening a line. Which is why I would like to see exactly what costs what and how this figure can be got.

Schuhart

nollaig wrote:

But Once again, Where does this figure come from? Has an extensive feasibilty study been carried out to come to this figure???

As we understand it, the estimate was made by a transport consultancy engaged by IE. Again, given the practical experience of Limerick-Ennis and Limerick-Waterford, is there any rational reason for questioning it? Why do you believe Tuam is likely to produce far more Galway bound travellers than Ennis produces Limerick bound travellers?

nollaig wrote:

I have no problem with the WRC not being re-opened, if I could see pure facts in front of me.

Its actually the other way round. Unless someone can show there is a case for opening, it should remain closed.

nollaig wrote:

No, My reason for querying it is that, the report does not say how it came to this figure. Like I said before, I have no idea of the costs of re-opening a line. Which is why I would like to see exactly what costs what and how this figure can be got.

You are simply making this needlessly obscure. If West On Track, the campaign most associated with WRC advocacy, were parties to this report, then there is simply no reason to believe it to be an overestimate.

nollaig wrote:

However, my opinion is that a properly marketed service that could cater for commuters between Tuam & galway could be a success.

Again, what is the basis of that opinion?

D'Peoples Voice

nollaig wrote:

But Once again, Where does this figure come from? Has an extensive feasibilty study been carried out to come to this figure??? I have no problem with the WRC not being re-opened, if I could see pure facts in front of me. However, my opinion is that a properly marketed service that could cater for commuters between Tuam & galway could be a success.

From my geography Tuam is not between Claremorris to Collooney, so why is that being discussed here?
For what it's worth, my whole opinion of the Western Rail corridor has changed, My attitude is now, if people in the West want it, let a private operator build and run the line on their behalf!
The majority of people in Ireland think it's a waste of money so they shouldn't have to pay for it, either for it's construciton or for any subvention for that matter! Subvention what am I talking about, WOT say it'll be a success, it won't need a subvention. In fact WOT say it'll be such a good investment, perhaps investors in the west might sell their properties and invest in the line! I'd love to see the level of interest involved!

nollaig

As we understand it, the estimate was made by a transport consultancy engaged by IE. Again, given the practical experience of Limerick-Ennis and Limerick-Waterford, is there any rational reason for questioning it? Why do you believe Tuam is likely to produce far more Galway bound travellers than Ennis produces Limerick bound travellers?

I hate repeating myself, But I need to see figures. All you can offer me is **** like somebody said this and somebody said that! If a consultancy firm was hired to estimate the cost of opening the rail to Tuam, then surely some of the experts here could say some facts. And have a breakdown of why exactly they came to this estimate.

Its actually the other way round. Unless someone can show there is a case for opening, it should remain closed.

Fair enough point, Not exactly a million miles away from what I was saying

You are simply making this needlessly obscure. If West On Track, the campaign most associated with WRC advocacy, were parties to this report, then there is simply no reason to believe it to be an overestimate.

Again, I dont give a **** about WOT and what they think. Have I said I believe it to be an overestimate? Nope, I have not got an idea. Certainly, It would appear a little steep but as I am not an expert in this area, I cant say. I just dont like figures being bandied about the place without being able to see where they came from.

Again, what is the basis of that opinion?

Again, i dont have any facts. I can only talk from my own experience. I have already mentioned that many commuters from the Tuam area would avail of a good rail service of it could save them the hooros of the N17. Other than that, There is nothing, It just brings me back to how many passnegers would it require to justify it?

The point is that not enough people are doing it to justify catering for it with a rail service and, in any case, the real need is to put public transport solutions into the cities which should be where future population growth is concentrated.

Ok, So what public transport solutions would you put in place?

From my geography Tuam is not between Claremorris to Collooney, so why is that being discussed here?

So So True!

Schuhart

nollaig wrote:

Fair enough point, Not exactly a million miles away from what I was saying

The point is your statement above seemed to suggest that you would support Tuam reopening unless someone could prove it was a bad idea. I'm suggesting, and hopefully you accept, that Tuam should only open if it can be shown to be a useful development. Seeing as how you don't seem to have a case for reopening the line, I take you accept that - unless someone turns up with a convincing case - you agree it should remain closed.

how many passnegers would it require to justify it?

I've already given my answer to that. Perhaps you could answer this. How many passengers do you think would use it?

nollaig

The point is your statement above seemed to suggest that you would support Tuam reopening unless someone could prove it was a bad idea. I'm suggesting, and hopefully you accept, that Tuam should only open if it can be shown to be a useful development. Seeing as how you don't seem to have a case for reopening the line, I take you accept that - unless someone turns up with a convincing case - you agree it should remain closed.

Of course, I agree with that. Geez, Havent I said that I believe that it has potential. Surely, you'll agree that the least that should happen is an extensive feasibility study should be carried out to see exactly what the situation is. Surely that isnt asking too much?

Perhaps you could answer this. How many passengers do you think would use it?

If it was properly marketed, Then I'd imagine, around 1000 per week would use it. But again, this is just opinion and I cannot back this up. Just a pure wild guess.