Western Rail Corridor

Schuhart

nollaig wrote:

Of course, I agree with that. Geez, Havent I said that I believe that it has potential. Surely, you'll agree that the least that should happen is an extensive feasibility study should be carried out to see exactly what the situation is. Surely that isnt asking too much?

As we understand it, a feasibility study was carried out but its being ignored so it is unlikely to be published. I'd certainly agree that the necessary material should be out there in the public domain - if they published the Dunboyne study, then why not publish the WRC one. But the indications are it would not be positive.

nollaig wrote:

If it was properly marketed, Then I'd imagine, around 1000 per week would use it. But again, this is just opinion and I cannot back this up. Just a pure wild guess.

I'd say your wild guess is at least in the same ballpark as both the IE commissioned survey and the Limerick Ennis experience, so I would not quibble with it here. But 200 people per day is hardly enough of a load to be talking about rail. That's only a few busloads. If demand was a couple of thousand a day we might be getting into the zone.

DerekP11

Before I express an opinion, let me first say that P11 is in the process of downsizing its contribution to debates that relate to rail infrastructure projects contained within Transport 21. We will continue to contribute to legitimate public consultation process's that happen in relation to Luas and Metro proposals, and/or "heavy rail projects" but further official commentary on projects that involve no contribution through any form of public consultation, would be futile.(a different route can be taken) This is unfortunate, as every project should have some official mechanism for contribution from interested parties. But we will continue monitoring developments, in the interest of funding priorities. These changes will be reflected on the P11 web site and message boards in due course. We will continue to make resources available to various campaigns that are both contained within and outside of the Transport 21 plan in line with P11 policy.

As P11 were the first to publically question the wisdom of prioritising the WRC, I will always feel compelled to contribute to the debate in a personal manner. Our official position is featured on our web site.

Nollaig, has suggested that the WRC project is very weak on proven statistics and he is right. The entire process of evaluation of the WRC has been a mix of local ,western based, reports,(1981,1990 and 2003), IE Fauber Maunsell report and the much broader strategic Rail Review (2003) and the WRC working group (2005). None of these reports have actually performed an independent and detailed evaluation of the WRC. One could argue that all reports were "biased" to a degree. On a personal level, I have stated this before and the need for a "proper" study by independent consultants that are experienced in the railway sector.

Unfortunetly this has not happened and doesn't look likely, unless the Dept. of Finance, "call it in". Therefore this line in full or in part may go ahead without any form of real evaluation. I find that to be very very incorrect and a waste of tax payers money.

I sympathise with every single detractor of the WRC and those who genuinely would like to see it happen, subject to real facts and not doubts.

If you demand real facts about it, ask a representative of WOT, IE, the Dept. of Transport or your local TD. Point your questions in that direction. Perhaps, then we might see a real study.

In closing, I'll make 2 points.

1. If the WRC goes ahead, an organisation like P11 will still be around to deal with customer issues on it, long after the so called "experts" have gone to ground.(if im still in p11, i'll dish out contact details as thats real accountability)

and

2. The contrasting arguments between the WRC and the proposed Navan line are startling. The WRC debate is quite rightly littered with doubts about passenger numbers and viability, while the Navan argument has now reduced itself to one of whether or not Ashbourne should be included to "strengthen" the case amid huge traffic volumes on the N3.

One wonders how different it might have been, had the actual "rotten" tracks been left in the ground on the original Navan alignment.

Transport21 Fan

as Johnny Cash told us all, "I hear the train a coming...it's coming around the bend"


While on the Sligo train last week I noticed how the train drivers blow the train horns as they approach level crossings for safety reasons. The noise even on a railcar is very loud and I would imagine can be heard some distance away.

I was wondering:

A) Do IE train drivers have to sound the train horn as they approach all level crossings - is it an official requirement?

If so;

wouldn't the vast numbers of level crossings between Tuam and Coolooney essentially result in a sonic tsumani of almost uninterupted train horns everytime a train transverses the line?

So much is made by those who claim they support the WRC on eviornmental grounds (LOL!), but isn't sound pollution also part of the enviormental impact as well. These trains won't run of embankments for much of the journey - they run at grade right up next to hundreds of homes in peaceful Connacht.

The people who live along the WRC generally live in old gate keepers houses which are inches away form the tracks. Their lives will be a living hell if trains every come back from the noise pollution. We are not talking one or two houses here but hundreds and hundreds of families.

Was this major quality of life/environmetal issue considered in the McCann Report? Seems to me that a lot of the reasons people come to the West of Ireland will be destroyed by WestonTrack and their supporters if they get their way.

Also, do the WRC gang with their whole "the people of the West!" hysteria show any kind of consideration for the people of the West who live right up next to these level crossings and their approaches and how they will be driven mad by the sound of trains just outisde the living room window?

Stark

Transport21 Fan wrote:

So much is made by those who claim they support the WRC on eviornmental grounds (LOL!), but isn't sound pollution also part of the enviormental impact as well.

The people who live along the WRC generally live in old gate keepers houses which are inches away form the tracks. There lives will be a living hell if trains every come back from the noise pollution. We are not talking one or two houses here but hundreds and hundreds of families.

Bah, if they complain, we'll put a wind farm there. That'll teach them.

There's a level crossing by Clonsilla train station in the middle of a residential area. I don't think the train sounds the horn every time it passes there. Or maybe it does, but the trains aren't regular enough for it to be an issue.

Transport21 Fan

Stark wrote:

Bah, if they complain, we'll put a wind farm there. That'll teach them.

There's a level crossing by Clonsilla train station in the middle of a residential area. I don't think the train sounds the horn every time it passes there. Or maybe it does, but the trains aren't regular enough for it to be an issue.

Stark, there was always trains at Clonsilla and other locations.

The level crossing on the WRC are very different as the line was built as a light railway. They are only inches from the tracks and there is not one or two of them but hundreds.

I love trains and I would not want to live next to a 2900 railcar or god forbid a freight locomotive outside the living room window.

DerekP11

A similar thread has started on the P11 board about the same issue.(train horns)

Considering that the proposed WRC reopening is meant to be far more superiour to any previous service on it (in this lifetime folks), then the issue of noise/disturbance should be a consideration for residents living along it. We must remember that this line has never seen any serious traffic in the last 80 years and development along its route has been "huge" by western "one of bungalow" standards. I think its a fair point to examine the potential "disturbance" factor of a reopened wrc. I say this, not as an "objector" (despite my well documented commentary on the issue) to the project, but in the interests of fairness.

The Luas projects in Dublin are subjected to "noise/disturbance" factors, under the Environmental Impact Studies. Likewise any further infrastructural developments on our railways will be subjected to something similar.

The WRC has been doing nothing for years. Why should it be "excempt" from basic criteria? The landscape it passes through, has changed considerably. Most notably, the "conversion" of housing alongside the alignment (sorry, can't call it track) and the building of further housing in its vincinity. This "project" that the Government have decided to force down our necks is being presented in the most biased and sneaky way. It borders on absolute "criminality" in terms of public transport provision, through a process of public consultation, study, benefit, viability and implementation.

When the west talks about Dublin "GETTING EVERYTHING", why can't they accept that its evaluated beyond belief, subjected to strict criteria and takes 10 years longer than it should, to solve a problem that is chronic and not merely "trivial".

Schuhart

DerekP11 wrote:

When the west talks about Dublin "GETTING EVERYTHING", why can't they accept that its evaluated beyond belief, subjected to strict criteria and takes 10 years longer than it should, to solve a problem that is chronic and not merely "trivial".

I think its because their women are ugly.

No, really.

shamwari

Ha. Sounds like someone doesn't want a train going past their house. We have a name for that kind of thing where I come from. It's NIMBYism. I wonder which was there first. The house or the alignment? :rolleyes:

jlang

The house was there first. The old alignment didn't go that way. Not sure but I think it might be listed, which is why there's fuss over having to knock it, apart from just NIMBY.

Transport21 Fan

It is looking pretty cool actually and not as cringe-inducing as most living on planet earth expected it to be. The funding and details to be announced at some shindig in the West (as yet not decided) before mid-september I have been told.

basically the line up includes:

• Double tracking from Galway to Athenry with new station at Oranmore. Redevelopment of Galway station with new platforms and MAJOR bus interchange. (excellent)
  
• Brand new station at Athenry with something called a "commuter village" to be constructed next to the station with some private money, and reopening to Tuam fully funded promised within specific timeframe. (not bad)
  
• Reopening of Ennis-Athenry with station at Gort to be reopened. (excellent)
  
• Funding of study on Tuam-Coolooney section. (translation: not going to happen in our lifetime)

Sligo has be bought off with the new Korean DMUs on the Dublin services which they get the first batch of.

No mention of rollingstock orders, probably the old DMUs cascaded from the lines getting the new DMUs will be what will happen - but when the announcement is made we'll find out. There are no plans for freight or Inter-City services on the reopened sections. Will be all commuter orientated and in stages.

All in all, not a mad plan by any means and some of it quite superb. Commuter focussed and the real meat comes before the follys. I have to give WestonTrack the credit for speeding it up with their campaign. Transport21 is looking better and better with each announcement.

Navan Junction

Just reading the above you have me thinking..

I passed through Tuam a few weeks ago and the rush hour traffic was very heavy within the town. And from the Galway direction there was a 2 mile back-up southwards out of the town..

Whilst I can't comment on where in Galway the traffic had come from (ie Ballybrit etc) it did strike me that the reliance on the car was of a similar pattern to Dublin and it's bordering counties, one person commuting per car.

Would the Gort /Athenry / Tuam stretch not be useful for Adamstown style developments along the route for the Galway area?

Lately I've been wondering when the economic draw for immigration would be likely to wear off and from some conversations recently, I think Ireland will be a mini America for another while yet.

Galway (unlike Dublin) has the potential here to plan things right from here on..

And unlike in the Dublin they would seem to have the political will to do it.

I read somewhere that Fr. Mícheál Mac Gréil stopped IÉ lifting the track along the WRC route some time back and that he has been campaigning for it 30 years or so. Apparently he also was behind the campaign to reopen Maynooth station.

As someone else pointed out recently estate agents love to sell houses saying that the are close to railways - maybe some of what is planned, particularly on the Gort - Tuam axis could build up the population sufficiently to make sure the line does see a decent service?

Transport21 Fan

Wasn't it Albert Reyonlds who forced CIE to run commuters trains to Maynooth?

I agree about the potential for Adamstown developments along rail corridors into Galway city. From what I been told this is more or less the rational and justifaction for reopening the above sections.

DerekP11

Navan Junction wrote:

I read somewhere that Fr. Mícheál Mac Gréil stopped IÉ lifting the track along the WRC route some time back and that he has been campaigning for it 30 years or so. Apparently he also was behind the campaign to reopen Maynooth station.

He was behind the campaign to stop CIE lifting the section between Claremorris and Collooney. If memory serves me correctly, it was Seamus Brennan as the Minister responsible, who stopped CIE lifting it and formally abandoning it. However, this had no effect with people actually living along this section. They "invaded" and "plundered" the line regardless and in the local knowledge that it would never reopen. They may be right. CIE turned a blind eye. Its now a poison chalice. Leaving the tracks gained nothing but symbolism and is what keeps the vain hope alive. Locals don't care. Ask them. I did.

As for Mac Greil's involvement with the Maynooth line, if its true, then it would be based on the fact that he worked in the seminary there. With all due respect to his beliefs, his heart may be in the right place, but in my opinion, his understanding of rail transport in Ireland is based on a social inclusion policy, that fails to take account of justifying costs in relation to the amount of people moved. I think this is an outdated view in relation to railways in the 21st century. Even a subsidy, must be justified.

And before anyone starts ranting, my opinion, is based on the fact that Ive read his reports on the WRC,(dating back to 1980) along with his many papers on developing the west of Ireland. Im more or less half his age, so my opinion is different. Accept it.

Navan Junction

DerekP11 wrote:

his heart may be in the right place

Maybe, or maybe it isn't - I don't know having never read his writings or met him.

My point was simply that he has been at it for a very long time.. Guarantee you I wouldn't be at it for the length of time he spent on it..

Anyway, if as T21 fan reckons Galway CoCo build up the population along it near Galway then at least they are thinking in the right way..

monument

If there's nothing firm about Tuam - Claremorris, FF in Mayo might as take up some of the track and stick it up their backsides in advance of next year.

MarkoP11

Sometime in the next month or so the WRC will become the actually become western noise corridor, nothing but noise and hot air and be replaced by a commuter service for Galway city. North of Tuam is dead it would need a works order to reopen to passenger service since numerous level crossing upgrades would be needed, read overbridges/underpass plus CPO/Adverse possession issues north of Claremorris. Its not workable even medium term, there is no freight to make any case. I would note that freight would be dependent on the Limerick Waterford line anyway

Depending on the rumours there will be two tracks to either Oranmore or Athenry (depends on Tuam really), there will be a number of or provision for a number of stations between Athenry and Galway, Oranmore for sure others highly possible, I have seen names and rough locations. Bear in mind the rail line into Galway takes a very direct route straight through the suburbs while the N6 goes roundabout. Tuam may or may not happen quickly but is likely. People will be somewhat surprised by what Galway City council are up to. The rebuild of Galway station is assured once planning issues are resolved and the mock ups look very nice indeed

The good news is finally a passenger driven approach appears to be in the offing focusing on providing a real service to a real demand. I'm very happy with this and that the work I and others did last summer got to the right people and feedback on the ground was positive. There will most likely be cries of decent and sellout when there is no mention of Claremorris, Knock etc but thats life and investment goes where it will really make a difference, if they really want it they need to ban once off housing thats the deal plain and simple McCann said that all logic says that planning is key

Those who held to a common sense realistic approach despite the difficult times it brought should be able to rest easy since it looks like this might actually make a difference without requiring huge ongoing exchequer support

Of course it could all change as the political vote grabbing alterations need to be made as the previous poster has so noted

The only name I have ever seen associated with the Maynooth line during the early 1980's is one Albert Reynolds I can find no other, Albert Reynolds of course used to work for CIE in Co. Leitrim, Dromond possibly as far as I can recall

Navan Junction

Didn't know that.. I could be wrong about Fr Mac Gréil but I did pick that up along the way - not even exactly sure where tbh.. But I had no reason to doubt it..

If I ever meet Albert Reynolds I'll ask..

Diaspora

MarkoP11 wrote:

Albert Reynolds of course used to work for CIE in Co. Leitrim, Dromond possibly as far as I can recall

It was Dromod I once saw an interview where he told the story of an individual who arrived at the station and had enough money for either the train to Dublin or the boat from Dublin to Liverpool and asked Albert was there any plaice in Dublin where he could get a few days work to pay for the boat and have a little money for food. Apparently Albert gave the guy a free ticket on condition that the money be returned when the guy had a job in England and so the story goes the guy was back the next Christmas with the fare. The question is how did a young Albert hide the missing ticket for x number of months? I wonder is IE accounting still that porous? Fair play to him either way I've always admired the human touch especially when it comes to lending vs charity or excuses.

Schuhart

MarkoP11 wrote:

The good news is finally a passenger driven approach appears to be in the offing focusing on providing a real service to a real demand.

Obviously, any worthwhile investment in public transport is to be welcomed. If a nutty, costly and ultimately pointless proposal has been replaced with on based on sound appraisal, then that's to be welcomed.

But I just want to be clear - is this Galway commuter rail proposal based on a sound cost benefit analysis? If we want to see the assessment of Dunboyne, its out there on the web. Similarly, there would appear to be a sound basis for Cork commuter rail development. Is that what's happening here, or is it more a case of hoping that throwing some kind of investment at the West, whether justified or not, will be enough to quieten demands for the full Monty.

MarkoP11

If there is an announcement it won't be very detailed, sadly I fear there will be a heap of money spent without much thought about the revenue but on the other hand a second track to Athenry would be seriously sweet for intercity operations, reduced journey time and improved reliability

The Cork case is extremely solid so much so that the rail end is profitable without subsidy and the numbers are serious 8 million pa

It appears that Galway CC has taken the Midleton success on board, no real point getting excited now but the information looks good and represents a much better option than going with the flawed WRC for WRC sake plan

Navan Junction

Irish Times have a WRC poll today..

Click here

D'Peoples Voice

Navan Junction wrote:

Irish Times have a WRC poll today..

Click here

According to Slice on

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055076895
Here's another poll they ran with the Irish Times- they love their polls all right
If only they could spend more of their time collecting money from people living in the area to pay for it, like those living along the Luas line between Sandyford and Cherrywood have to pay!

[Article]Traffic poll shows need for Mayo rail link

From today's Irish Times by Tim O'Brien


Quote:
A survey has found that 40 per cent of traffic in and out of Galway city through Claregalway originates from or travels to south Mayo, where commuters must wait until 2014 for a rail connection.

The results of the survey, conducted on behalf of Galway County Council, were released ahead of this week's conference on the western rail corridor, to be addressed by Minister for Transport Martin Cullen and Minister for Community, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs Éamon Ó Cuív.

The corridor is a State-owned rail line stretching for 234km from Sligo to Limerick.

Statistics gathered last summer at Milltown, Co Galway, revealed that more than 9,000 vehicles a day were passing through the village on the N17 near the Mayo border. An average of 500 vehicles per hour pass through from 8am-8pm, with an evening peak of 400 vehicles southbound between 6-7pm, and 350 northbound in the same period.

The data, compiled by UK-based Golden River Traffic, showed that up to 36 per cent of traffic entering and exiting Galway city through Claregalway via the N17 throughout the day originates from or travels to the south Mayo area. This rises to more than 40 per cent at peak times.

A previous traffic survey at Claregalway found 700 vehicles travelled from the city each hour. Galway County Council estimates the real figure is closer to over 30,000 a day, when those who try to bypass the congested village by travelling on the "rat runs" are included.

The results surprised West On Track, the lobby group for the western rail corridor.

"It shows that Galway is feeding out as much traffic as it's pulling in," said spokesman Colmán Ó Raghallaigh.

"The figures mean that 2.5 million vehicles a year are passing through a tiny village and yet the people who live there have been told they must wait until 2014 to get a rail service."

During the same period last year, West on Track interviewed 200 motorists along the route, of whom 49.5 per cent were daily commuters. Almost 80 per cent of those surveyed said they would switch to rail if it was available.

Under its blueprint for transport spending, known as Transport 21, the Government has committed to reopening the rail corridor in several phases.

The Ennis to Athenry section is due to open in December 2008 with seven trains a day. The Athenry to Tuam section is next, scheduled to carry passengers by 2011. The line to Claremorris will not reopen until 2014 under the plan. No date has been set for the completion of the corridor to Collooney in Sligo.

Mr Ó Raghallaigh said that of the €16 billion spending provided for in Transport 21, €907 million, or 5.5 per cent, was for projects in the west. One-third of that funding would go towards the rail corridor.

"If they can open 36 miles of rail between Ennis and Athenry in a year and a half, why is it taking eight years to open the 34 miles between Athenry and Claremorris?" asked the teacher from Claremorris.

"We have to get real about this and stop pussyfooting around. If there was a political will, the line to Tuam could be opened within six months of Athenry, as there's no level crossings."

The conference takes place in the McWilliam Park Hotel, Claremorris, next Friday

oscarBravo

D'Peoples Voice wrote:

...those living along the Luas line between Sandyford and Cherrywood have to pay!

They do?

Chris_533976

Wasnt something like that reported in another thread?

Funny how the percentage of people in that misleading statistic at the top of the article has magically gone from 36 to 40%.

Navan Junction

oscarBravo wrote:

They do?

Section 49 levies on new developments - council bills developers, developers pass cost on to home buyers...

Government provides finance knowing that levies will repay part of the construction costs over whatever number of years the levies run for.

OTK

oscarBravo wrote:

They do?

They do.
What's so confusing about paying for something you are going to use?

oscarBravo

I didn't know about Section 49. I can see that the costs will be passed on to new buyers (developers being what they are), but it seems a little imprecise (at best) to claim that the people who live there are paying for it.

SeanW

OTK wrote:

They do.
What's so confusing about paying for something you are going to use?

Very confusing to the WRC brigade it seems, especially their UK trainspotter-supporters.

Victor

Colmán &#211 wrote: »

"We have to get real about this and stop pussyfooting around. If there was a political will, the line to Tuam could be opened within six months of Athenry, as there's no level crossings."

Thats quite telling. Eventually they admit level crossings are a problem.

Navan Junction wrote:

Section 49 levies on new developments - council bills developers, developers pass cost on to home buyers... Government provides finance knowing that levies will repay part of the construction costs over whatever number of years the levies run for.

My problem with how Section 49 has operated so far, is that people outside the zone get the theoretical use of the railway, but don't have to contribute anything. I think every new development west of the Shannon should contribute to the WRC.

Zoney

Victor wrote:

I think every new development west of the Shannon should contribute to the WRC.

Why not go a step further and have everyone in the country contribute, because they might use it, or their friends or relatives might, or they might move to the West to get away from it all. Oh wait, yes, that's how taxation is supposed to work when you aren't moving to an American-style "it's all about me" mentality.

It's like suggesting only sick people pay for hospitals. Or only people with kids pay for schools (tell me, how does the country go forward if we don't keep having kids and educating them well?)

Or toll roads...