Western Rail Corridor

gjim

Oh wait, yes, that's how taxation is supposed to work when you aren't moving to an American-style "it's all about me" mentality.

I want a helicoptor to take me to work and back. I want the taxpayer to foot the bill to provide the service. Anyone who questions my right to a helicoptor is suffering from an "all about me" mentality.

It's a topsy turvy world when some loons in a underpopulated part of the country demanding the entire rest of the country pay for them to have expensive rail infrastructure fondly imagine themselves as "community minded" while appartment dwellers in Dublin paying for the construction of a Luas near their homes have a greedy "all about me" mentality.

dermo88

Heres a few threads from Irishrailwaynews from a while ago....a few years, dealing with this, and other topics. Zoney, your support of this is well known, but frankly, its getting far too much coverage. Like the West Clare railway, and the West Cork railway, it only gets attention, because rail enthusiasts love the railways that carry the least. Meanwhile in Dublin, in Meath in Limerick, and Cork....the traffic jams continue.

Frankly speaking, I'd give my right ball to be the CIE chairman and send in the lifting trains for Athenry to Collooney. It would give me nothing but the greatest of pleasure to see the Gardai arrest anyone protesting or trespassing on the track while it was being lifted and that branchline would be gone, never to be heard of again, only in the miserable drunken ramblings of rail enthusiasts on IRRS or RPSI specials. Ernest Shepherd, Colm Creedon and Colourpoint publications can make their money selling books about it.

The real work of delivering a truly viable, modern rail system, carrying plenty of passengers in the places where the passengers actually are can continue.

Should Platform11 apologise in Castlebar

http://groups.msn.com/irishrailwaynews/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=23182&LastModified=4675521117918479361

Back in 2002.....remember this.

Close lines to cut costs

http://groups.msn.com/irishrailwaynews/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=8100&LastModified=4675433836490844793

The real issues....imperfections in the existing network...take a look at Limerick Junction.

The Limerick Junction Issue

http://groups.msn.com/irishrailwaynews/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=5064&LastModified=4675413424241188381

Union warns againts possiblke closures

http://groups.msn.com/irishrailwaynews/general.msnw?action=get_message&ID_Message=1853&ShowDelete=0&ID_CLast=1902&CDir=1

Rail closures (2002)

http://groups.msn.com/irishrailwaynews/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=2005&LastModified=4675390981235603196

Interconnector Tunnel

http://groups.msn.com/irishrailwaynews/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=22997&LastModified=4675544070507760824

Clonsilla Navan

http://groups.msn.com/irishrailwaynews/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=26058&LastModified=4675546992839698099

Meath on Track

http://groups.msn.com/irishrailwaynews/general.msnw?action=get_message&mview=0&ID_Message=27564&LastModified=4675552689998133685

Each and every one of the above is of far more importance, of far more potential, and of far greater importance to the people of Ireland than a wasteful Victorian Tramway. Each one of these represents a bullet in the heart of the Western Railway Corridor. Those who support the Western Railway Corridor should read these, wake up, smell the coffee, and be realistic.

nollaig

because rail enthusiasts love the railways that carry the least. Meanwhile in Dublin, in Meath in Limerick, and Cork....the traffic jams continue.

You make it sound like there are no traffic jams in the west!

Zoney

dermo88 wrote:

Zoney, your support of this is well known, but frankly, its getting far too much coverage.

My support of what? What's been committed to by politicians (we know how much that is worth - hence why I see the need to continue speaking up for it):

• Reopening Ennis-Athenry and having a Limerick-Galway service. That is strangely enough quite reasonable, hence why it is happening.
• Probably in the medium term follow up with Galway-Tuam commuter; which considering the commuting on that corridor is not that odd.

Much as the official line, I see the rest of the route as longer term and specifically strategic transport links rather than something that will be a well-patronised service. I wouldn't see Tuam-Claremorris as unlikely as Claremorris-Collooney (simply due to the current condition of the corridor). I do not agree that supporters of it should be derided or ridiculed; it is a great pity that other local representatives for admittedly more needed projects can't kick up as much a fuss (Meath-on-Track are doing a great job mind you, though the curious resistance of politicians there to rail will probably need a lot more work). WRC are examples of the approach needed in this country to get what you want - it is whoever shouts loudest. I'm not in favour of that but it's the way it is.

I am very much in favour of other projects, particularly Navan link and the Interconnector. However, even if more needed, they are in a different league of project entirely. Reopening Ennis-Athenry is a far smaller job - that is why it is happening sooner!

If Ennis-Athenry were suddenly cancelled tomorrow, that does not mean a positive sign of "now we can focus on the Navan rail link". It would in fact bode ill for such major projects if something the scale of Ennis-Athenry doesn't go ahead.

Schuhart

nollaig wrote:

You make it sound like there are no traffic jams in the west!

I think the point is more that's there's no evidence of a problem for which rail is the solution.

Zoney wrote:

Reopening Ennis-Athenry and having a Limerick-Galway service.

I think the point would be that a Limerick-Galway service might be reasonable, but nothing seems to have been done to substantiate that. We can see where the figures have been done on Cork Midleton and Dunboyne. But Ennis-Athenry seems to be going ahead with no more depth of thought than you and I saying 'I'm sure that they'd have enough traffic to justify it'.

Now, in actual fact, as we know Limerick Ennis is actually more about Dublin Ennis than any local traffic. That, coupled with Limerick Waterford (even allowing for some of the practical criticisms that people make of that service) casts doubt on the feasibilty of Limerick-Galway.

I'm not saying Limerick-Galway shouldn't happen. I'm saying its shouldn't happen just as a sop because a few eejits kicked up a stink about the WRC. If its a good idea it should stand up to scrutiny. Where's the scrutiny?

Zoney

Schuhart wrote:

Where's the scrutiny?

The government generally only bothers to have a project subject to scrutiny if they are trying to get out of doing it. Or if people kick up enough fuss that they have to justify something (witness e-voting commission, though that backfired for them as the commission didn't come back with the public reassurance that they wanted, quite the reverse).

So in this respect, I suppose it is likely that there won't be a u-turn on Ennis-Athenry.

You won't be seeing any scrutiny of the plans for dual carriageway on the N18 Ennis-Athenry either. Why? Because a better transport link is needed, and regardless of what can sufficiently serve traffic volumes it has been decided politically to have a dual carriageway quality link. Quite rightly too. You could end up with parts of the "inter urbans" to Dublin being 2+1 rather than motorway if you based everything just on traffic figures. It's nevertheless necessary to have that standard of transport link (motorway/HQDC) between the countries main economic centres.

OTK

There was scrutiny of the Ennis-Athenry rail link in the form of a feasibility report from Irish Rail. The recommendation of the report was that the line would not be viable, would attract few passengers and compete poorly with the Ennis-Galway road.

You won't be seeing any scrutiny of the plans for dual carriageway on the N18 Ennis-Athenry either. Why? Because a better transport link is needed, and regardless of what can sufficiently serve traffic volumes it has been decided politically to have a dual carriageway quality link. Quite rightly too.

What are you saying here? That it is better to decide the allocation of money on transport infrastructure projects based on politics rather than the projected benefits?

corktina

Ennis to Limerick makes sense because you get two flows...ie Dublin and Limerick passengers ....for the same reason it MAY make sense to open as far as Gort but I dont think there will be much of a demand for a Limerick to Galway service because it will be slow,(stopping at Ennis Gort and Athenry and possibly elsewhere....) and the road journey is quite quick in comparison.....I did North Cork to Oughterad in much less than three hours in a 28 year old car the other day.

It would be interesting to know how much traffic travels from Limerick to Ennis in the mornings.....virtually nil I would guess...

Zoney

corktina wrote:

It would be interesting to know how much traffic travels from Limerick to Ennis in the mornings.....virtually nil I would guess...

Plenty to Shannon though - again a pity that isn't connected. There was a survey carried out (it was quite scary to see people from Charleville commute to Shannon) and a very high percentage of those questioned would have potentially used a rail link were it provided. I forget the additional questions (I think it did ask about how people would connect to the train, P+R etc.) as it must be what, 8 years ago or more. I don't know was it published or who carried it out; I was involved in the summer job dogwork for a week or two of processing the questionnaires. I think it was pretty comprehensive (i.e. calling into workplaces with questionnaires, collecting them again then later).

There are more people than ever working (and indeed living) in Shannon Town as far as I know, not to mention the airport. Bus Éireann provide some phenomenal number of buses a day to the airport (over 100), and again, these are used despite it being a generally unpleasant slow service (esp. at rush hour) and Limerick station not having park and ride or anything (I guess maybe some people using the pick-up on Henry Street park in multi-stories for the day, I don't know?).

This is of course without even considering Ennis (or further north) to Shannon (which is sizeable traffic too).

corktina

i doubt it would transfer to Rail however sizable the potential traffic would be unless there was an intensive service which there wont be. Also with the open skies policy upon us, Shannon may well be heading for a decline.Of course a divertion via Shannon would make the trains even slower. I thought a station and (dreaded bus) shuttle was on the cards for Shannon which would be a better option than a spur.(sixmilebridge wasnt it?). Even better option would b Bus all the way from a P&R on the Limerick Bypass system .

dermo88

Tuam can wait if Navan waits. Thats how I see it, and I am not compromising there.

The Shannon stopover is the old Soviet style "lets support the Wesht" that has made it primitive, backward and protectionist. Its got to go, and if Shannon deserves to survive on its own merits, then it will thrive. The old soviet style protectionism, as shown by decentralisation, the common agricultural policy has got to go. It never done Ireland, or the West any good whatsoever. The WRC will stand as another monument to this, if it is ever built to Sligo.

Victor

Schuhart wrote:

Now, in actual fact, as we know Limerick Ennis is actually more about Dublin Ennis than any local traffic. That, coupled with Limerick Waterford (even allowing for some of the practical criticisms that people make of that service) casts doubt on the feasibilty of Limerick-Galway.

I wonder, is it about Ennis-Dublin or "most of Clare"-Dublin.

Poxyshamrock

Can anyone confirm what type of train will be used for the Limerick to Galway Line? Will it be the new 22000 Class trains?

Zoney

dermo88 wrote:

Tuam can wait if Navan waits. Thats how I see it, and I am not compromising there.

Well, I will start by saying that I don't think Navan should be left waiting; they've waited long enough.

But your statement ignores the situation on the ground where reopening to Tuam just involves a bit of an extensive relay and renovation; whereas to Navan essentially requires a completely new railway alignment that people can't even agree the route for! I accept that if the old route is used, it isn't quite a completely greenfield job, but it is still far more extensive than getting services running on the Tuam line again.

Even if politicians committed to Navan tomorrow though; I really think there's an awful prospect of protracted haggling over the route as they try to figure out how to best facilitate land owners and developers (/cynicism).

dermo88

1. I figure that Limerick to Galway will get 2700/2800 Class DMU's cascaded from the Rosslare and Dublin suburban services. Limerick depot have done an excellent job of taking care of the 2700 Class DMU's. In terms of distances its neither commuter or Intercity, its in a kind of an awkward nowhere land in that regard, and bears a slight similarity to the Dublin to Rosslare line in that respect, on account of it being a medium distance route.

2. I agree on the haggling over the route bit. The reopening of Broadstone has caused a bit of a mess as well, and I'd like to see Broadstone return to its old role as the terminus of the Midland services, if the Double track is expanded to Mullingar and beyond, I think its got a lot of potential. A lot more services are needed in Meath. I reckon that most of the former lines in Meath are a viable proposition now, and that rebuilding them could shield the property market in Meath during a potential downturn, but that is not justification in itself. Increased mobility and fewer cars on the road getting into the capital is.

3. The major blocker for the Meath lines are towns such as Ashbourne and Dunshaughlin. If the formation is away from the town centres, they won't do much good, and they won't attract custom. They'll be about as much use as those "X road" stations of victorian times, or "Parkway" stations in Britain today. They will flatter to deceive, just as the reopening of Craughwell (Loughrea Parkway!!!), and Ardrahan do on the Limerick to Galway line. Its best to get it right first time. The old formation may be cheaper, but even I have my doubts about using it. For example, Hazelhatch is supposed to serve Celbridge, yet its some distance from the town, and Sallins is supposed to serve Naas, yet again, its a fair bit out of it, and the bus services, like almost everything that CIE does are badly coordinated.

Poxyshamrock

dermo88 wrote:

In terms of distances its neither commuter or Intercity, its in a kind of an awkward nowhere land in that regard, and bears a slight similarity to the Dublin to Rosslare line in that respect, on account of it being a medium distance route.

Think of it this way....Galway = City. Limerick = City. A Train Service between these two cities is intercity.

I don't see how we can't get Mark 3's at least if not a Mark 4 here and there. And if we are to get any type of DMU it should be 22000 class.

monument

The people of the west of Ireland demand only TGV Duplexs...

dermo88

A 22000 is overspecced for Limerick to Galway. Its a medium distance route. Its less than 70 miles overall, and has a journey time of 1 hour 50 minutes. The 22000's are best used for the radial routes out of Dublin, and possibly on Clonmel to Dublin direct trains from the Waterford-Limerick Junction route. You'll get a 2 coach set going back and forth 7 times a day for starters, and if that gets filled, then you get a 4 coach set OR a 22000. But its going to have to earn a 22000 set, and thats how it is.

Victor

monument wrote:

The people of the west of Ireland demand only TGV Duplexs...

Tell that to Sligo.

oscarBravo

Sligo's north-west - doesn't count, innit.

Victor

oscarBravo wrote:

Sligo's north-west - doesn't count, innit.

Sorry, I'm referring to the unsuited commuter rail cars that are currently on the Dublin-Sligo line.

Schuhart

Victor wrote:

Sorry, I'm referring to the unsuited commuter rail cars that are currently on the Dublin-Sligo line.

Is this the issue of the commuter rail cars having to be allocated to Sligo becuase local politicians got a bee in their bonnet about Sligo people being insulted at the idea that IE intended to use more suitable, but older, vehicles?

Once you go West transport policy seems to stop being about transport, and turns into who can build the most impressive monument to their ego. Should we just forget the pretence and simply build some Pyramids in Claremorris?

MarkoP11

Schuhart wrote:

Is this the issue of the commuter rail cars having to be allocated to Sligo becuase local politicians got a bee in their bonnet about Sligo people being insulted at the idea that IE intended to use more suitable, but older, vehicles?

Sligo was meant to get Mk3 coaches (1984-1988 vintage) but local politicians went on the war path. Mk3 coach is still the most comfortable to travel in

I haven't heard a word of complaint since the life expired train returned to the 8:55 Sligo Dublin and 17:05 Dublin Sligo, its far from ideal but it does expose the fact there is a serious rolling stock shortage

Depending on how you look at it there is either no rolling stock for extra trains in Dublin (note please the serious overcrowding problem) and trains for the WRC or no trains for the WRC and moderate relief in Dublin with one or two extra trains

D'Peoples Voice

MarkoP11 wrote:

Last on the record comment from IE concerning the WRC said nothing of Tuam or Claremorris, it clearly stated the project was political

750 is the number and it looks quite correct

With the 'Mayo Taoiseach' looking more unlilkely to happen by the day,
and the fact that the Greens have pulled the plug on talks with FF,
it's looks like it's back to FF/PDs and
prioritising worthwhile transport projects and not politically motivated projects!

So democracy does work:D

dowlingm

Well, Claremorris is back on the agenda in the PforG (for Beverly Cooper Flynn perhaps, or to tell Mayo people they don't have to vote Inda to get stuff) but I can live with that to some extent - as long as Collooney is quietly but firmly buried.

Schuhart

It looks to be all that's politically practical. But much can be learned from reflecting on how, in a context where other potentially more useful rail developments are correctly subject to feasibility studies, the WRC sails through without question.

The WRC is useful in telling us something about ourselves, as do the 'Look West' adverts exhorting us to leave urban areas and contribute to ground water pollution by moving to a one-off house in the West.

Victor

I took one of Wesley Johnson's map and updated it and added the railways. The 7,000 figure is his, not mine. I'm not sure as what level a railway / station is viable. Its rather telling on the existing services against no service.

corktina

hmm thats thought provoking isnt it...what are the tw0 towns unserved near the border....quite a strong case surely for rail reinstatement/new build around Dublin and north of the border but no case at all for the WRC

dermo88

Hello corktina, good to see you again. That map is more than thought provoking.

Its a call for the lifting trains to be sent in on Athenry to Collooney.
Its a call for an old (forged...but we won't say anything) closure notice from May 1998, signed and sealed by the CIE chairman and brought to the NEXT meeting of the WRC comittee.
Its a call to those who support the WRC, disband, or Athlone to Westport gets 2600 or 2900 Class Railcars, NOT 5 times a day, just ONCE a day.

I'd give them one month of that treatment, and then I'd meet again.

"Hello, good to see you all again. Do you want 5 trains a day, new shiny 22000's or do you want more of the same?"

If I were transport minister, thats the medicine I'd give them. Thats how I feel. Cromwell, Landlords and the Famine were'nt good enough to eradicate that hand wringing begging bowl syndrome. Instead, these people who lobby for the WRC are killing off viable projects. I'd be like the Devil himself....

"Good afternoon Mr O'Some Irish name that makes me all sound important and pretentious"

I removed myself from the IRN forum after dealing with one sick puppy 3 weeks ago. Which was good fun, but I'd had enough. There are plenty of nice people there, and realistic enthusiasts, but then there are some crazy people who don't look at the overall picture and its TRAIN....all the way. They don't view the train as a product in its context. A transport product in itself.

Which has to be sold to the Government.
Which has to be sold to the Banks who fund it.
Which has to be sold to the passengers who will use it.

If any one of these are not in place, it fails. It has to be seen to be effective, efficient and reliable.

That same product has to compete against Cars, Buses, Aircraft.
That same product has to be attractive.
141's, 121's, and railfreight do not belong in that catagory.

Lets use a horseracing analogy. Anyone who follows horses, bets on them (occasionally), reads a formbook, knows the old conundrum "Course and Distance"

Rail is the course and distance winner on Dublin to Cork.
It is the course and distance winner on DART.
It is a good performer in the greater Dublin Area, and it can be in Cork.
Its a course and distance winner when it hauls freight from Navan.

On other routes it CAN be the course and distance winner, but IE need to get the finger out.

If the preservation movement had an ounce of cop on, instead of dividing, fighting and arguing, they'd realise that if they got together, as one group, they could get the WRC themselves, and it would'nt be such a burden. Instead, its total division, and an Island of 4 Million cannot support 4, 5 or 6 different groups. So an umbrella group of transport enthusiasts could get funding, but 6 different groups fighting over a small pot won't get anything.
________________________________________________________________

But back to that map. That is the legacy of 1957 and 1965, and the legacy of partition.

The rail free areas were served by the ex-GNR. Now, while CIE got investment in the routes that survive today, the ex-GNR wanted investment, asked for investment. Sean Lemass as Taoiseach and also Minister of Industry and Commerce was perfectly willing to approve, sign, and invest. But his Northern counterpart, William Craig (Had a few shares in a road construction and trucking company) did not.

And so, in September 1957, a whole lot of closures took place cutting off Monaghan, Fermanagh, Cavan, from the rail network.

Donegal happened later, but then.....most of the towns there were small. Its also not exactly the kind of place to have railways, dispersed population and all that.

The final one, and something that would NEVER happen in the Republic of Ireland was the closure of Portadown to Derry. That closure sees the largest towns on that map cut off.
________________________________________________________________

Today, what do we see on that map.

Navan, Swords, Ashbourne definitely need a railink.

Maybe one day, talk to the Northern Government about reinstating rail links there. Its a pipe dream, but who knows. I'd lobby for that sooner than WRC.

westtip

dowlingm wrote:

Well, Claremorris is back on the agenda in the PforG (for Beverly Cooper Flynn perhaps, or to tell Mayo people they don't have to vote Inda to get stuff) but I can live with that to some extent - as long as Collooney is quietly but firmly buried.

Good to see this chestnut - WRC thread keeps resurecting itself if only so we can all continue to put down the perfectly rational arguments there are against it. Actually Dowlingm, Claremorris has always been on the agenda as part of T21 - although I think it is a complete waste of time and energy - I live in the West and can see far bette and more meaningful things for the west to argue for. Collooney will remain buried - I refer to the McCann report into the WRC of 2005: http://transport.ie/upload/general/6645-0.pdf

This document which was a working party report to the then MOT Seamus Brennan was pretty clear about the Collooney - Clarmorris section - which no matter how much bleating by WOT occurrs is simply never going to happen - so once again I argue - make this section of track a superb tourist attraction and convert it fo about €40,000 a mile into a first class long distance path and cycle track - this would bring more Tourist Euros to the west than any rail track, and if WOT could open their eyes and see this they would bring themselves more credibility for arguing for this - again I steer anyone interested to http://derbyshire-peakdistrict-co-uk.leia.parcomweb.net/tissingtontrail.htm this trail brings millions of pounds of tourism into the Derbyshire Peak district and this kind of trail could do the same for East Mayo and Sligo but try to explain this kind of thinking to WOT and they just don't gettit.