Western Rail Corridor

Victor

corktina wrote:

...what are the tw0 towns unserved near the border

Cavan and Enniskillen.

dermo88

There are several towns close to the border that lost their rail connections, and they'll never get them back.

The seeds for their loss were made over a century ago, through having private companies involved in their construction, rather than State regulation combined with public investment, which is the way forward.

On the Northern Ireland side, we have Armagh (1957), Strabane (1965), Enniskillen (1957). These are large towns by the standards of the Republic, and population densities there are much greater.

On the Southern side, we have Cavan (1947/1960), Navan (1958) and Monaghan (1960).

Lets look back at the reality at what caused their loss.

Who on earth would trust rail transport after the Emergency, with its coal shortages and delays. Winter 1947, again, Coal shortages.

Totally unreliable. High fares by the standards and wages of the time, it was cheaper to drive, use a bus, or a car. Standards of service were dreadful by the standards of the time.

The lines also went through mountainous terrain. The lines had lots of level crossings, high fixed operational costs, and there only social purpose at the time was to take emigrants to the boat.

It was a poor country. Secondary schooling was a rare priviledge, and third level education was almost unheard of. So it has to be looked at in the context of the time.

I keep posting on the WRC chestnut to kill it.

I want Navan to go ahead, and also see viable rail projects go ahead.
I want the existing network to thrive, succeed, and when thats good enough, expand, where possible.
If rail enthusiasts want expansion in underpopulated areas, let them pay for it. Get Lottery funding, or tourism board funding, some form of private finance.

However, the state owned monopoly framework killed rail transport just as easily as private sector involvement. Somewhere in between, lies the solution.

Fast forward to 2007.

Due to the Gordian knot of our planning laws, its difficult to get any major project implemented. Roads are relatively easy, theres plenty of expertise on building roads. Railways, on the other hand are a much more difficult matter, and when they are built, they better do the job, and carry passengers.

If there was no railways in Ireland today, there is possible justification for two Intercity routes, and a lot more rail in the Dublin area.

As for the clamour for the WRC, it is symptomatic of having too much money, and not enough sense. But, no doubt, you'll see plenty of coverage on a British Railway magazine on it. To the people in Mayo and Sligo, its irrelevant.

You won't see much coverage by the same magazines on Metronorth, Navan, or Metrowest when they are built. Thats because they will be functional, sterile and boringly reliable. They won't go through nice scenery. They will be doing a mundane job. Bringing commuters to computers, and thats what we really need.

Zoney

dermo88 wrote:

As for the clamour for the WRC, it is symptomatic of having too much money, and not enough sense. But, no doubt, you'll see plenty of coverage on a British Railway magazine on it. To the people in Mayo and Sligo, its irrelevant.

If there hadn't been clamour for the WRC we wouldn't be getting a rail link between two cities; Limerick and Galway, along a route that for road is being upgraded to dual carriageway and has over 30 bus services a day. That's despite the quite frankly hellish bus service taking two and a quarter hours to travel 105 km.

To the people in Dublin, the rest of the country is irrelevant, despite the fact that the converse is not true (I do not think that anyone who has been to Dublin disputes the need for a heck of a lot more dedicated transport links than two mangy Luas lines).

monument

Zoney wrote:

To the people in Dublin, the rest of the country is irrelevant, despite the fact that the converse is not true (I do not think that anyone who has been to Dublin disputes the need for a heck of a lot more dedicated transport links than two mangy Luas lines).

The problem is that is not quite true at all. People see Dublin getting a few tram and metro lines and say Dublin gets everything etc etc

MLM

monument wrote:

The problem is that is not quite true at all. People see Dublin getting a few tram and metro lines and say Dublin gets everything etc etc

Out of the 34 billion euro that is being spent on Transport 21, over 20 billion is going to the Greater Dublin Area. Per capita that does seem a little lopsided.

dermo88

Zoney

"To the people in Dublin, the rest of the country is irrelevant"

I'm from Dublin. Lets face facts.

Dublin, population 500,000 Circa 1967
Dublin, population 1,500.000 today

What does that tell you.

It tells you plenty of people came from the countryside, married each other, married Dubliners, lived and worked in the greater Dublin area, and had more Dubliners, or dare I saw "Half Dubliners". The vast majority of Dubliners have ties to the rest of the country. We are Irish first, and Dubliners second. Down in Mayo, unfortunately, and in some counties, its county first, and nation second.

Thats hardly the legacy that Tone, Pearse, or even....dare I say, Dr CS Andrews, who fought in the war of independence, wanted

Your latest quotation, "To the people in Dublin, the rest of the country is irrelevant" will be used in evidence against every argument you make on Irishrailwaynews, Platform11, and wherever I encounter an argument from you.

You remember the last one I hammered you with.

"Dublin is an aberration that needs to be tamed"

I suggest you engage your brain, before you engage the anti-pale mouth, or at least, edit the remark, or adjust it to something that is fact, as opposed to a very nasty, poisonous opinion.

I half support the WRC. The half thats likely to work. The Southern half.

The rest.....get rid of it, lift it and leave it. Your argument is on a siding to nowhere. I could describe what I think of your opinions, but your not significant enough to warrant, or risk a ban, and you never will be until you read the Intermediate Certificate Geography textbook, and have scraped together your pocket money for an N Gauge trainset.

Instead of doing that, you expect the taxpayer to indulge your fantasies. Well, reality is harsh, and I did use a picture of Father Dougal to descibe such opinions on public transport.

Now run along now, and play trains somewhere else. There are plenty of places in the third world that need your help and assistance. Where the railways are rotting and underused. Nigeria....population 100 Million. Go on the missions, then you'll know social justice.

You are the weakest link...........goodbye.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Schuhart

monument wrote:

Zoney wrote:

To the people in Dublin, the rest of the country is irrelevant, despite the fact that the converse is not true (I do not think that anyone who has been to Dublin disputes the need for a heck of a lot more dedicated transport links than two mangy Luas lines).

The problem is that is not quite true at all. People see Dublin getting a few tram and metro lines and say Dublin gets everything etc etc

This kind of thing is not hard to find. Investment in Dublin is resented and questioned. Ironically, comments like this

Minister Brennan is insisting that no section of the line can be reopened until the sums are done because it is taxpayers' money which is at stake. Kiltimagh man Joe Kelly wondered if there was such rigorous value-for-money examination of projects like the Luas and Metro.

are reported unchallenged when we know that the case is pretty much the opposite – the WRC is proceeding despite analysis suggesting its pointless, ahead of projects that analysis suggests would serve a purpose.

MLM wrote:

Out of the 34 billion euro that is being spent on Transport 21, over 20 billion is going to the Greater Dublin Area. Per capita that does seem a little lopsided.

Alternatively, it simply reflects that Dublin has a wider need to fill. Dublin tends to get public investment only after the need becomes undeniable.

Lets also recall that Transport 21 hasn't actually been delivered yet.

D'Peoples Voice

MLM wrote:

Out of the 34 billion euro that is being spent on Transport 21, over 20 billion is going to the Greater Dublin Area. Per capita that does seem a little lopsided.

Right coming from an economics background, what you are saying is flawed.
you seem to be saying that the government should divide out the money across the regions FIRST, then evaluate whatever investments exist within those regions given the money constraints.

the net effect of such an approach is that everywhere gets the cheapest possible option and nothing is done right!

OTK

MLM wrote:

Out of the 34 billion euro that is being spent on Transport 21, over 20 billion is going to the Greater Dublin Area. Per capita that does seem a little lopsided.

Yes, and have you noticed how little the department of the marine spends in Offaly and Westmeath? It's completely unjust and unbalanced.

For public transport to attract passengers it needs to connect places with concentrations of people. Yes we can build public transport in open countryside but nobody will use it. Check out Clonmel-Waterford to see the zero benefit that an unpopular train service can provide.

If the West wants a modal shift from road to rail they would need to start concentrating development around their railway stations. But they are doing precisely the opposite. Their representative, Eamon O'Cuiv has vociferously campaigned for their housing to be as dispersed as possible.

corktina

sorting out the transport problems of Dublin and surrounds are of paramount importance to ALL of us. If Dublin is strangled , then we all will suffer....

Cork (our second city) is tiny compared to Greater Dublin and it's traffic problems really arent too serious and everywhere else has a proportionately smaller problem.

WE ALL need More public Transport to and in Dublin, a Bigger and better airport for Dublin,...

Zebra3

OTK wrote:

If the West wants a modal shift from road to rail they would need to start concentrating development around their railway stations. But they are doing precisely the opposite. Their representative, Eamon O'Cuiv has vociferously campaigned for their housing to be as dispersed as possible.

Yep, if the people of the west wanna justify something as wasteful as the WRC, which politican will tell them that one off housing is at an end and that they all need to go and live in apartment blocks like the ones at Ashtown.

dermo88

Let me point out a few facts about many of the lobbyists for this scheme.

Turbotim is a moderator on Irishrailwaynews, and he lives in Leighton Buzzard. Last time I looked at a map, I did not see any station called Leighton Buzzard anywhere in Ireland.

He is not an Irish taxpayer, he is not an Irish resident, he has absolutely no right whatsoever to be advising on Irish affairs.

Colman O'Raghallaigh
Father Mac'Greil.

Is that smug self important pompous use of the Irish language an attempt to get favours from the West of Ireland set? If so, most of us can see through that veneer of crap.

A Helfner MGWR, of Irishrailwaynews

Last time I checked, New Jersey was a suburb some......5,000km west of Galway. One more down.....any more volunteers? I'm having fun now.

Your toast. Every last one of you. I'll discredit you and that scheme forever.

corktina

good point dermo.....our children wont thank us for saddling them with a white elephant to pay for when the celtic tiger has gone to the dogs.....the WRC wont bring prosperity to the west, but i have to agree a long distance footpath might....

SeanW

MLM wrote:

Out of the 34 billion euro that is being spent on Transport 21, over 20 billion is going to the Greater Dublin Area. Per capita that does seem a little lopsided.

No, its just fulfilling a desperate need. Like Dublin Airport for example, which was built with a main airport runway of only 2.637 km. The shortest of any capital city in Europe. But Shannon's is almost a kilometre longer. Why? A decision was taken by governments in the past to hold back and mutilate Dublin and its infrastructure at every turn. Of which the Shannon whingers lobby/trade union mafia is a prime example. As is the current WRC brigade who's hell bent on wasting taxpayers money on a financial black hole that will forever destroy the case for any further investment in railways in Ireland. I can just hear the Sean Barretts of this world gleaming "sure didn't ye get a railway through Mayo ... it was a disaster - and now ye want another one going to Navan?"

Face facts Zoney, MLM a good deal of T21 is public transport. And its mostly in Dublin that public transport is needed. You want to rebuild a pointless Victorian tramway through the middle of nowhere that only serves a couple of small towns and one-off houses, you need a better reason than "Dublin gets everything." Because it doesn't.

dermo88

Awwww.....please don't be mean, don't take their dreams away.

Heres the halfway house. This is what works.

Of course it can be built, but guess what, NOT in the form that burdens taxpayers. They CAN Have a railway, and they can have trains. BUT it needs to be in a different form.

There are plenty of them in Wales and England. The Ffestiniog railway, Tallyllyn railway, etc etc. ALL going through underpopulated areas, making money, getting small tax concessions and lottery funding, and bringing in tourists at relatively little burden to the taxpayer.

They are registered charities. However, the problem is, the preservation movement on railways is fragmented.

The RPSI, ITG, IRRS, MRSI, IRN, need to get together and buy Athenry to Tuam from IE for a nominal price. The problem is, ALL these organisations fight with each other. One hates Diesels, the other has no expertise in steam, etc etc, etc.......(rolls eyes).

It can be rebuilt with second hand jointed track.

That way, they get their toy in the West of Ireland. The rest of us get to travel on modern trains, and if regular commuters want to use it, they can.

MLM

SeanW wrote:

Face facts Zoney, MLM a good deal of T21 is public transport. And its mostly in Dublin that public transport is needed. You want to rebuild a pointless Victorian tramway through the middle of nowhere that only serves a couple of small towns and one-off houses, you need a better reason than "Dublin gets everything." Because it doesn't.

Just for the record, I don't believe there is a current need to extend the WRC north of Galway. Galway and Limerick should be linked by rail. Anything beyond that should be re-examined in the long term.
The problem with Dublin is, it is one of the worst planned cities in Europe, a situation which has created problems that will cost billions to fix. If you go by this country's track record in delivering infrastructure, a lot of this will be wasted. The most obvious example: spending 600 million euro to remove toll booths on the M50. This is a sum of money that could have provided our four main regional cities with state of the art public transport networks, that are as badly needed as any public transport requirement in the capital.
Unfortunately, as has already been mentioned, calling for the northern section of the WRC to be re-opened diverts attention from valid and viable regional public transport requirements.

Yoda

Just for the record, I do beieve that there is a need to extend the WRC north of Galway, to Claremorris. The line is there. Connecting the Westport-Dublin line to a line going south to Shannon seems to me to be to be very sensible in terms of transport infrastructure. Tuam has many people who commute to Galway, and refurbishing the connection from Claremorris to Tuam is hardly as wasteful as the toll-booths you mention.

The line from Claremorris to Sligo is problematic. *That* is the northern section of the WRC.

Schuhart

Yoda wrote:

Just for the record, I do beieve that there is a need to extend the WRC north of Galway, to Claremorris. .... Tuam has many people who commute to Galway, and refurbishing the connection from Claremorris to Tuam is hardly as wasteful as the toll-booths you mention.

I think the problem comes from the word ‘belief’. This is not something that requires belief. The numbers just don’t add up for the WRC. There also seems to be a deliberate confusion of people ‘living in Tuam’ commuting to Galway and people living in one off houses all over South Mayo who may end up creating traffic in Galway but are (truly) not really potential rail users. Why there is this preference for myth and fiction over simply addressing the world we live in is beyond me.

We’ve had that in discussion here before, including the laughable case of a Farmer’s Journal article on the WRC where someone is quoted complaining about the journey time of their Claremorris-Galway commute by car, apparently unaware than the WRC commute time would actually be longer – before we even get into the practical limitations of the proposed service.

Was it worth €600 million to buy out the Westlink toll? I honestly don’t know, but I think there is a need to recognise that this is a cost that arises because of the historical attempt to do Dublin ‘on the cheap’. The idea that this is evidence of largesse poured into the capital just doesn’t hold up to scrutiny, particularly as we understand that ultimately M50 users will be paying a barrier free toll. There seems a great willingness to seize on any headline figure (be it Westlink or Luas) as if this in and of itself is proof of Dublin getting special treatment whereas its more correctly seen as the inherited cost of past neglect.

Does €600 for Westlink bring fewer benefits per € than Tuam or Claremorris? To be honest, I don’t think that can be safely assumed without seeing real figures on Westlink. Whenever the toll barriers are actually lifted and barrier free tolling is in place (bearing in mind the toll is still being charged – its always being important to challenge the idea that poor farmers in Mayo are being rackrented to buy out a bridge for plutocratic Dubs to drive over in the SUVs) I expect we’ll see a lot of people moving quicker. We won’t see that on the WRC. Which is the greater benefit? Certainly, it’s not something that can be determined on the basis of ‘belief’.

The WRC offers no benefit at all at great cost. The McCann Report, the political attempt to find some justification for doing it, blatantly avoided the question of what benefits could be expected. Its value is purely iconic. If people want belief and icon worship, why can’t they stick to religion?

MLM

Yoda wrote:

Just for the record, I do beieve that there is a need to extend the WRC north of Galway, to Claremorris. The line is there. Connecting the Westport-Dublin line to a line going south to Shannon seems to me to be to be very sensible in terms of transport infrastructure. Tuam has many people who commute to Galway, and refurbishing the connection from Claremorris to Tuam is hardly as wasteful as the toll-booths you mention.

The line from Claremorris to Sligo is problematic. *That* is the northern section of the WRC.

Tuam to Galway might be feasible as a commuter service, also serving Athenry, and Oranmore. Extending it to Claremorris would offer inter-city services between Galway, Ballina and Westport. I honestly don't think there is a sizeable population to justify running such a service. Perhaps in about 10 or 15 years time the issue could be revisited.
WRC supporters should look south rather than north for viability. Concentrating on running a service from Galway to Limerick, and continuing on as a through service to Rosslare Harbour would have much more potential in the long term. You connect Galway, Limerick and, Waterford; major urban centres. You offer connecting services to Cork, possibly with a small number of Cork to Galway through services. Clonmel is properly included in the country's rail network. There is a direct connection to Rosslare Europort. The oppertunity exists to augment potential suburban services in the greater Waterford and Limerick areas. In effect you substantially increase the potential rail users of the WRC.

Yoda

Schuhart wrote:

I think the problem comes from the word ‘belief’. This is not something that requires belief. The numbers just don’t add up for the WRC.

There is a distinction between short-term and long-term planning. But putting off the development for another few decades (in the shadow of Peak Oil) is short-sighted. And the towns in the West are growing.

There also seems to be a deliberate confusion of people ‘living in Tuam’ commuting to Galway and people living in one off houses all over South Mayo who may end up creating traffic in Galway but are (truly) not really potential rail users.

"One-off housing" is just a trope. You follow it up with a "myth or fiction" trope and that isn't discussion, it's dismissal. Ballina and Westport and their catchment areas are not filled with high-density apartment blocks, no. But neither is most of the Dublin area. Dublin is growing in L.A.-style sprawl. And no one here in the West disputes the need for more and better lines in Dublin.

We’ve had that in discussion here before, including the laughable case of a Farmer’s Journal article on the WRC where someone is quoted complaining about the journey time of their Claremorris-Galway commute by car, apparently unaware than the WRC commute time would actually be longer – before we even get into the practical limitations of the proposed service.

Living west of Westport, I can tell you that I would prefer a longer but comfortable and safe relaxed journey to Galway over the "shorter" far more dangerous journey over the two narrow overcrowded roads that lead there. And it's not just Galway. If the journey led to Limerick, it would link Westport and Ballina and Castlebar and Claremorris to Shannon and Roslare.

The WRC offers no benefit at all at great cost.

Rail transport infrastructure is for our country, for the long-term, for its residents and tourists. Our country is rich enough to get up to Claremorris. Stopping at Athenry makes no sense. It's the infrastructure.

Yoda

MLM wrote:

Tuam to Galway might be feasible as a commuter service, also serving Athenry, and Oranmore. Extending it to Claremorris would offer inter-city services between Galway, Ballina and Westport. I honestly don't think there is a sizeable population to justify running such a service. Perhaps in about 10 or 15 years time the issue could be revisited.

We will not be so rich in 10 or 15 years.

WRC supporters should look south rather than north for viability. Concentrating on running a service from Galway to Limerick, and continuing on as a through service to Rosslare Harbour would have much more potential in the long term.

Sure. And connect Ballina and Westport and Castlebar and Claremorris and Ballyhaunis and Castlerea and Tuam to that network.

You connect Galway, Limerick and, Waterford; major urban centres. You offer connecting services to Cork, possibly with a small number of Cork to Galway through services. Clonmel is properly included in the country's rail network. There is a direct connection to Rosslare Europort.

Sure. And connect Ballina and Westport and Castlebar and Claremorris and Ballyhaunis and Castlerea and Tuam to that network.

The oppertunity exists to augment potential suburban services in the greater Waterford and Limerick areas. In effect you substantially increase the potential rail users of the WRC.

Sure. And connect Ballina and Westport and Castlebar and Claremorris and Ballyhaunis and Castlerea and Tuam to that network.

I don't see a serious argument against some sort of Claremorris-Athenry rail service.

Schuhart

Yoda wrote:

But putting off the development for another few decades (in the shadow of Peak Oil) is short-sighted.

Not really. Opting for a dispersed settlement pattern is short sighted, but that seems to be the choice of people in the West. I frankly don't understand how you can dismiss the relevance of that choice to the non-viability of rail as a 'trope'. I worry that language is about to lose its meaning.

Yoda wrote:

And no one here in the West disputes the need for more and better lines in Dublin.

I'm not sure that you are correct to say no-one in the West disputes the need for public investment in Dublin. However, the key point is it cannot be disputed. The fact that rail investment in Dublin makes sense does not create an entitlement to rail investment in areas where it does not make sense.

Yoda wrote:

I can tell you that I would prefer a longer but comfortable and safe relaxed journey to Galway over the "shorter" far more dangerous journey over the two narrow overcrowded roads that lead there.

Are you suggesting that we should reopen the WRC just for you? If rail is justified, it needs loads of people needing to make the same journey. That's just not present in the situation.

Can I also invite you to reflect on how the statement you make (which may be well-intented) looks like papering over the cracks when you consider how you are responding to a comment I've made relating to someone seeing the WRC as a solution for their daily commute. Try the full article Here's a relevant quote

When Ann Melia moved from Dublin to Claremorris, Co Mayo, in 1999, she hoped to find a better quality of life in rural Ireland. However, with a gruelling 88-mile daily drive to work in Galway City, the mother of two says "the jury is out". And all because of the lack of a commuter rail service in the west.

"When you travel 440 miles a week, there isn't much left of you," she explained. "In 1999, I'd leave Claremorris at 7.30am and be in Galway for 8.20am. My journey now takes me one hour and 10 minutes. I leave the house at 6.30am and I'm now waking up at 5.15am every morning. Am I going to have to get up at 4.15am next? It's absurd."

Does this sound to you like someone happy about taking a longer journey ten times a week? Can you see why I might read your comments as window dressing? Can you also appreciate how many of us scratch our heads at how anyone thinks a 440 mile weekly commute is sustainable under any conditions? Ditto why one-off housing is more than a 'trope'?

Yoda wrote:

Rail transport infrastructure is for our country, for the long-term, for its residents and tourists. Our country is rich enough to get up to Claremorris. Stopping at Athenry makes no sense. It's the infrastructure.

I dare say we could afford to extend a railway across Achill Sound. That doesn't mean it makes sense. You seem to be retreating into generalities, which suggests (to my admittedly suspicious mind) that you know your case falls apart once we push past rhetoric and actually ask how many bums on seats this service will see. Kyoto or Peak Oil or regional development are not assisted by running empty diesel railcars up and down the West.

MLM

Yoda wrote:

We will not be so rich in 10 or 15 years.Sure. And connect Ballina and Westport and Castlebar and Claremorris and Ballyhaunis and Castlerea and Tuam to that network.

I don't see a serious argument against some sort of Claremorris-Athenry rail service.

I'd love to see this happen, but even the combined population of these areas barely matches that of Waterford city. There is simply not enough people to justify a service.
I think the way forward for the country is to concentrate regional development in the main cities of Cork, Limerick, Galway, and Waterford, and strenghten transport links between them.

RedPlanet

Schuhart wrote:

...you know your case falls apart once we push past rhetoric and actually ask how many bums on seats this service will see.

Is it a particular requirement of yours that public transport be self-sustaining, from an economical point of view? Or is subsidized public transport ok in your book?

dermo88

It needs subsidies, and bums on seats. All public transport needs some form of subsidy to . Right now, Bus Eireann does a far better job that the WRC ever will on the routes radiating from Galway. The WRC in Mayo would be a clear loser over course and distance.

If you want to get from Mayo Rosslare by train, you travel via Dublin. Thats a 7 hour journey. If you go via Limerick, its a 7 hour journey. You can already get from Mayo to Cork and Waterford via Portarlington and Kildare respectively, but your poor little head found that too awkward to grasp.

If thats a reflection of the intelligence out there in Mayo, then maybe you do need the WRC to employ the thick and unemployable. But its a rather expensive social employment scheme. You need stunts like decentralisation to sustain you.

Of course, we could close all the railways in Mayo, and then you really would have reason to moan, complain and wring your paws. It would probably be the best thing for the rest of the country. From the county that spawned P Flynn the misogynist, his daughter Beverley Flynn .....and Charles J Haughey, let us use a wonderful word that the Mayo people gave the world.

Boycott the WRC. The WRC is part of the Mayo doctrine that will join Beverley Flynn shortly. Its bankrupt. Pity you don't see that, but its fun mocking you.

I'd rather you said THANKS, to the taxpaying part of the country that sustained you while you and your ilk continued to defraud the wealth through oversized 419 scams such as Knock Airport, the Shannon stopover and the Common Agricultural Policy. Instead, its "we want more". We have fostered a culture of dependency that needs to be replaced by a culture of sustainability.

Schuhart

RedPlanet wrote:

Is it a particular requirement of yours that public transport be self-sustaining, from an economical point of view? Or is subsidized public transport ok in your book?

You'll notice I said 'bums on seats' and not profit. I don't see a problem with subisidy where its economically justified.

The next bit will sound pedantic, but there's actually a point at issue that frequently gets confused. When you say 'economical' I think you mean 'financial'. This confusion is relevant as generally people don't expect public transport to meet its own running costs out of its fares (although Luas is presumably an honourable exception to that). In other words, they don't expect it to be financially justified.

Economics, on the other hand, takes account of all costs and benefits, including social costs and benefits. Once built, Luas would seem to be financially sustainable. DART is not (so far as I know) financially viable but I'd suspect its economically justified as carting several million passengers about reasonably quickly is a strong social benefit. To assist the measurement of social benefits, values are assigned to travel time to allow a project to be appraised with some degree of objectivity. WRC simply fails that kind of objective test, meaning it is neither financially nor economically justified as the social benefits just aren't there.

So much for the science bit. The bottom line is, when you talk about public transport, the social benefit depends on how many bums on seats you get. No bums on seats means no social benefit. It really is as simple as that.

SeanW

RedPlanet wrote:

Is it a particular requirement of yours that public transport be self-sustaining, from an economical point of view? Or is subsidized public transport ok in your book?

No. It just has to attract passengers (or freight) traffic, and make some kind of sense. Railway projects need to be assessed properly on how many passengers they're going to carry, a.k.a "bums on seats."

That is the case I expect WRC supporters to make, flawlessly, for each proposed section.

Victor

MLM wrote:

Out of the 34 billion euro that is being spent on Transport 21, over 20 billion is going to the Greater Dublin Area. Per capita that does seem a little lopsided.

Do you have the breakdown? I've yet to find it.

---

dermo88 wrote:

If thats a reflection of the intelligence out there in Mayo

Dermo, even witty insults aren't allowed, please tone it down.

MLM

Victor wrote:

Do you have the breakdown? I've yet to find it.

---

Couldn't find the exact link, but I did find Brian Lenihan claiming that 16 of the 34 billion was to be spent on public transport. Now if you minus the 1 billion that the non GDA public transport projects will cost; and add a billion for the M50 upgrade, 600 million for the toll booths, and a billion for the airport, you get close to that figure. If you include the cost of the M3, the outer orbital route, and the eastern by-pass, you are well over the 20 billion.
Here's the Brian Lenihan link.http://www.brianlenihan.ie/transport.pdf