Western Rail Corridor

ga2re2t

Schuhart wrote: »

I'm unconvinced that a service with an average speed of 35 miles an hour will be attractive compared to road.

I'm presuming that the 35 mph (56 km/h) figure is a station to station average, i.e. from Ceannt in Galway to Limerick? If so it's not so bad cos I would imagine it's not much better by road. Good aul Google Maps currently works it out at about 67 km/h or 42 mph by road ( see here ), and that's not taking heavy traffic into account.

The added bonus of the train is that the journey is much more comfortable and you can get some quality sleep time or reading time. I'm too lazy to go through all the posts in this thread to see if a table of expected travel times have been posted, so if somebody knows them off hand I'd really appreciate a recap. Say, the following:
Ballina - Tuam
Tuam - Athenry
Tuam - Galway
Galway - Ennis
Galway - Limerick

Schuhart

ga2re2t wrote: »

I'm presuming that the 35 mph (56 km/h) figure is a station to station average, i.e. from Ceannt in Galway to Limerick? If so it's not so bad cos I would imagine it's not much better by road. Good aul Google Maps currently works it out at about 67 km/h or 42 mph by road ( see here ), and that's not taking heavy traffic into account.

As I understand it, the expectation is that the road journey will continue to reduce in time. Hence, your comparison will be between a rail journey of approaching two hours versus a road journey of a bit over one hour.

The proof of the pudding will be the eating. But I feel the facts of the matter are pretty clear and if you truly think there's a gain involved in having a journey time between Galway and Limerick that's so long you could get a good sleep in, I'd frankly wonder if you are really thinking about the issue at all.

invincibleirish

Time issues win above all.

if a car journey is twice as quick as the train then car wins every time.

Propellerhead

Schuhart wrote: »

As I understand it, the expectation is that the road journey will continue to reduce in time. Hence, your comparison will be between a rail journey of approaching two hours versus a road journey of a bit over one hour.

The proof of the pudding will be the eating. But I feel the facts of the matter are pretty clear and if you truly think there's a gain involved in having a journey time between Galway and Limerick that's so long you could get a good sleep in, I'd frankly wonder if you are really thinking about the issue at all.

There are no facts to assess until a service is timetabled.

Schuhart

Propellerhead wrote: »

There are no facts to assess until a service is timetabled.

This is simply evasion. We don't need a timetable to know that a service travelling at this speed will not be attractive. The assessment that this is the case, and that the service will be unattractive compared to road, has already been made by the Department of Transport.

That assessment seems to be overruled on political grounds. What I cannot understand is why people seem to want to be fooled.

ga2re2t

Schuhart wrote: »

As I understand it, the expectation is that the road journey will continue to reduce in time. Hence, your comparison will be between a rail journey of approaching two hours versus a road journey of a bit over one hour.

The proof of the pudding will be the eating. But I feel the facts of the matter are pretty clear and if you truly think there's a gain involved in having a journey time between Galway and Limerick that's so long you could get a good sleep in, I'd frankly wonder if you are really thinking about the issue at all.

Nope, I'm not really thinking too much about the issue at all. I'm on boards.ie, where I can rant a bit, make a few opinions and read those of other posters. If I want to be really serious then I'd go onto a specialist forum such as RUI.

But I am thinking a little bit. I know a heck of a lot about commuting. I'm currently commuting 1hr15 minutes by car to work (in France). Public transport would take me about 2hrs 30 mins cos there's no direct route, instead it's tram+train+metro+metro. If I could take a direct train that would take 1hr 45 mins or so, then I would more than likely take that option more often. In practice I'd probably do 3 days by train, 2 days by car, or something like that. 1hr15 minutes in a car is 1hr15mins wasted. 1hr45 mins in a train is 1hr45mins to do something practical.

As Propellerhead has said, there are no facts to assess until a service is timetabled. What will the times be? How do you know that the road journey time will reduce? Will bottlenecks at the city outskirts wipe out much of that extra time gained by using motorway? What will the price of petrol/diesel be in 2 years time?

I'm not an advocate of the WRC, I have never supported it. It is a diversion of money from more important projects. But it's being built and it will have practical social merits.

Schuhart

ga2re2t wrote: »

1hr15 minutes in a car is 1hr15mins wasted. 1hr45 mins in a train is 1hr45mins to do something practical.

I think this statement is unrealistic, particularly if you have commuters in mind, as the train limits you to a schedule and a location. That's fine when you can move large numbers of commuters from pretty much where they are to pretty much where they want to go faster than they can do otherwise. But that's not what the proposed service here will do.

ga2re2t wrote: »

As Propellerhead has said, there are no facts to assess until a service is timetabled.

There are. The article I linked above is one (which confirms the view that the service will not be attractive compared to road). If you really want to dig into it, proposed timetables have been posted up by West=On=Track, the lobby behind the WRC.

ga2re2t wrote: »

I'm not an advocate of the WRC, I have never supported it. It is a diversion of money from more important projects. But it's being built and it will have practical social merits.

You were doing fine until you said 'and it will have practical social merits'. The practical social merit of a rail service is if it moves large numbers of people around faster than they could do otherwise. The WRC won't do that, so it has no practical social merit.

It really is as simple as that. There's no 'intangible' benefit at stake here. It simply does come down to how many bums on seats the service gets, and how much quicker it shifts them.

ga2re2t

The unfortunate reality, Schuhart, is that the line from Ennis to Athenry is currently being built and will likely be operational by the end of 2009. The battle is lost, logic didn't vanquish the sentimental West of Ireland politics and, excuse the pun, but the train has left the station, so to speak!

Complaining about how crap you (and sometimes I for that matter) think the Limerick - Galway service will be is going to fall overwhemingly on deaf ears. If you disagree with the WRC then I'm afraid you're going to have to focus your attention on the line north of Athenry.

As for the Ennis-Athenry section, I think it's time for people like you, who are looking for a more logical rail policy in Ireland, to move on and see what can be done with what we've got. The simple fact is that Limerick and Galway (Ireland's 3rd and 4th largest cities respecitvely) should be connected by rail, but it would have been preferable to attack that issue once more important ones had been sorted out (the Interconnector, Cork suburban rail, Navan line). Anyhows, I've ranted way too much here. I went ahead and looked up some further info on the subject. Here's what I found:

The Limerick to Galway route along the WRC measures approximately 118 km of rail

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=1790632

Assuming an average speed of 35 mph (56 km/h)

Limerick - Ennis = 40 km (43 mins)
Limerick - Athenry = 97 km (1hr 43 mins)
Limerick - Galway = 118 km (2hrs 6 mins)

Limerick - Ennis is currently timetabled as being a 40 minute journey (60 km/h average).

West-on-Track have published the following estimate:
Limerick - Galway 1hr 45 mins (67 km/h average)

http://www.westontrack.com/timetable20.htm

Inconsistencies??

KC61

ga2re2t wrote: »

The unfortunate reality, Schuhart, is that the line from Ennis to Athenry is currently being built and will likely be operational by the end of 2009. The battle is lost, logic didn't vanquish the sentimental West of Ireland politics and, excuse the pun, but the train has left the station, so to speak!

Complaining about how crap you (and sometimes I for that matter) think the Limerick - Galway service will be is going to fall overwhemingly on deaf ears. If you disagree with the WRC then I'm afraid you're going to have to focus your attention on the line north of Athenry.

As for the Ennis-Athenry section, I think it's time for people like you, who are looking for a more logical rail policy in Ireland, to move on and see what can be done with what we've got. The simple fact is that Limerick and Galway (Ireland's 3rd and 4th largest cities respecitvely) should be connected by rail, but it would have been preferable to attack that issue once more important ones had been sorted out (the Interconnector, Cork suburban rail, Navan line). Anyhows, I've ranted way too much here. I went ahead and looked up some further info on the subject. Here's what I found:

The Limerick to Galway route along the WRC measures approximately 118 km of rail

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=1790632

Assuming an average speed of 35 mph (56 km/h)

Limerick - Ennis = 40 km (43 mins)
Limerick - Athenry = 97 km (1hr 43 mins)
Limerick - Galway = 118 km (2hrs 6 mins)

Limerick - Ennis is currently timetabled as being a 40 minute journey (60 km/h average).

West-on-Track have published the following estimate:
Limerick - Galway 1hr 45 mins (67 km/h average)

http://www.westontrack.com/timetable20.htm

Inconsistencies??

Initially I understand that the trains will take under 2 hours to travel from Limerick to Galway, but with further private level crossing eliminations (not all of them will apparently be eliminated when the line reopens), the speed should increase, reducing the journey time further. Some of these services will probably continue to Limerick Junction to offer onward connections.

The lack of double track from Athenry to Galway and the lack of a passing loop at Sixmilebridge will restrict timetabling options significantly. There is some talk of the twin track section out of Galway being extended somewhat, and the Sixmilebridge loop will follow as part of the Limerick station resignalling project (due in 2010 I believe).

Consequently, it will not (I believe) be possible to offer direct connections (i.e. 5/10 mins) at Limerick for Limerick Junction and beyond from every train to/from Galway. This will be alleviated somewhat once the Sixmilebridge passing loop is installed.

Ham'nd'egger

The trip from Limerick to Athenry is 60 1/2 miles. There isn't many speed restrictions save for a small section in and around Limerick station and a bridge over the River Fergus approaching Ennis; this has been the subject of replacement recently so it will raise speeds. Ennis to Limerick is allowed 40 minutes at present. It is usually done in less than 30 minutes it can and should be cut to 35 minutes for the trip on WRC, including a stop in Sixmilebridge. Gort is 18 miles down the line; Ardrahan and Craughwell a further 7 and 6 miles further respectively.

With a top permitted speed of 70MPH and an allowance of 4 minutes per station for boarding, braking and acceleration, circa 70 minutes would be a reasonable time to get to Athenry inclusive of stops.

Ham'nd'egger

KC61 wrote: »

Initially I understand that the trains will take under 2 hours to travel from Limerick to Galway, but with further private level crossing eliminations (not all of them will apparently be eliminated when the line reopens), the speed should increase, reducing the journey time further. Some of these services will probably continue to Limerick Junction to offer onward connections.

The lack of double track from Athenry to Galway and the lack of a passing loop at Sixmilebridge will restrict timetabling options significantly. There is some talk of the twin track section out of Galway being extended somewhat, and the Sixmilebridge loop will follow as part of the Limerick station resignalling project (due in 2010 I believe).

Consequently, it will not (I believe) be possible to offer direct connections (i.e. 5/10 mins) at Limerick for Limerick Junction and beyond from every train to/from Galway. This will be alleviated somewhat once the Sixmilebridge passing loop is installed.

Gort will get a loop, KC; it is in situ already. Ennis has one as it is and these should suffice.

On double tracking the line into Galway, this used to be the case from Oranmore. The line was double tracked in the past so space is there; however to utilize the maximum of this; Galway should be in a position to make use of it's second platform in order to justify two trains in station limits.

Zoney

I still maintain that it only has to be more attractive than bus to benefit Limerick, Galway, Ennis and the region.

I also maintain that it is indeed likely to be more attractive. The bus service currently takes at least 2 hours, and indeed can even be worse than the timetabled 2hrs15 to 2hrs25 in the morning/evening if it hits peak traffic at Limerick or Galway. The motorway will not help the bus service, as the buses cannot go faster, and will actually end up travelling a longer distance if they use it. Traffic volumes on the roads are only going to grow, especially with motorway between the two population centres.

KC61

Hamndegger wrote: »

Gort will get a loop, KC; it is in situ already. Ennis has one as it is and these should suffice.

On double tracking the line into Galway, this used to be the case from Oranmore. The line was double tracked in the past so space is there; however to utilize the maximum of this; Galway should be in a position to make use of it's second platform in order to justify two trains in station limits.

H & E I am well aware of the infrastructure on the WRC, but having sat down and examined the scheduling possibilities, I have to say that if you wish to have full connections at Limerick (given that trains will be constrained by the timings of Dublin/Galway services between Athenry and Galway and v.v.) the lack of a loop at Sixmilebridge will make it rather difficult (if not impossible) to ensure connections at Limerick out of every train - it certainly won't be possible to operate a perfect clockface schedule.

For information, the estimate of just under 2 hours end to end is that of IÉ themselves.

ga2re2t

Zoney wrote: »

I still maintain that it only has to be more attractive than bus to benefit Limerick, Galway, Ennis and the region.

The only thing is, bus services are usually much more door to door (e.g. multiple stops on the city outskirts) and will be cheaper. The Limerick-Galway route will really need to be no more than a 1hr 30min journey before it looks truly attractive, especially to non-commuters. 118 km should be easily done in that time, in all honesty, even with the reversing at Athenry, shouldn't it?

invincibleirish

Are there many Commuters going to Limerick from north of Ennis, and many Galway/Limerick Commuters? (who arent already using the hourly 51 bus or driving?)

if bus and train are taking the same time, going from the same place in Limerick to the same place in Galway, and assuming Bus is cheaper, then who is going to use the train?

Schuhart

ga2re2t wrote: »

The unfortunate reality, Schuhart, is that the line from Ennis to Athenry is currently being built and will likely be operational by the end of 2009. The battle is lost, logic didn't vanquish the sentimental West of Ireland politics and, excuse the pun, but the train has left the station, so to speak!

Indeed, but you’ll appreciate I said much the same thing just a few posts before yours

Schuhart wrote: »

Not that it matters, as the damn thing is being built and will be spun as a success, no matter how paltry the passenger numbers. They'll just add them up over a long enough period to make it look like a big number, like they do with Limerick Ennis.

The only reason I’m here at all is because a few are still trying to pretend there’s some content to this proposal. If someone says ‘look, there’s an urgent political need for the Government to be doing something, anything, all over Clare because of Aer Lingus pulling out of Shannon. If the trains are empty, it will do political good because the politicians see it as like trying to calm a neurotic woman. If the money is a complete waste, it means we really love them. If the carriages were full, they’d be miffed as we were only doing it because there was a point to it.’ then I’ll absolutely agree.

ga2re2t wrote: »

The only thing is, bus services are usually much more door to door (e.g. multiple stops on the city outskirts) and will be cheaper.

That is, of course, the point. It has to be worth your while to get to the rail station, and then add your rail journey time on top of that, assuming your destination is close to the station at the far end.

ga2re2t wrote: »

The Limerick-Galway route will really need to be no more than a 1hr 30min journey before it looks truly attractive, especially to non-commuters. 118 km should be easily done in that time, in all honesty, even with the reversing at Athenry, shouldn't it?

Judging from the material posted here, it doesn't look to be 'easily'. IE's estimate is just under two hours. From what I can gather, Athenry to Galway is timetabled at twenty minutes. You have Ham'nd'egger calculation that 70 minutes to Athenry is feasible, but that seems to be optimistic compared to what IE say.

It would look to me like a very optimistic estimate would suggest 1 hour 30 min could be possible, but certainly not 'easily'.

KC61

I would expect that split times would be something like:
Limerick-Ennis: 35 minutes
Ennis-Gort: 25 minutes
Gort - Athenry: 30 minutes
Athenry: 5 minute turnaround
Athenry-Galway: 15 minutes

Allowing for station stops, that gives an overall running time of between 1 hour 50 and 1 hour 55 minutes.

Zoney

invincibleirish wrote: »

if bus and train are taking the same time, going from the same place in Limerick to the same place in Galway, and assuming Bus is cheaper, then who is going to use the train?

The bus is likely to take a longer and variable time depending on traffic (it's already timetabled at up to 2hrs25 in some cases), also getting worse rather than better as car numbers continue to increase (some parts of the national network are seeing 10% year on year traffic growth). Also, train is more comfortable and not so much "wasted time".

In those scenarios, it seems likely some people will travel by train unless it is very high priced. Also, it is likely there will be people who will travel by train but who would do anything to avoid travelling by bus.

markf909

Will this impact on the WRC?

http://www.galwaynews.ie/3376-state-runs-out-cash-n17


What would the people of the west prefer given an either/or choice?

OTK

Zoney wrote: »

The bus is likely to take a longer and variable time depending on traffic (it's already timetabled at up to 2hrs25 in some cases).

Citylink provide an hourly service that's timetabled for two hours all day. Limerick and Galway could improve bus lanes to further reduce these times. I can't see the train competing with this speed and frequency.

invincibleirish

Surely with the road upgrades between Limerick/Galway and adoption of some clever bus lanes the bus could conceivably easily break 2 hours between the 2 cities.

this goes with the point i made already, if you are one of the many people who will be commuting between Limerick/Galway on a regular basis (:p) and your options are a slow expensive train, or a cheap bus, both averaging similar times between the 2 points, then bus wil prove a far more attractive option.

The WRC with its many loops, hills, reversing and whatever else sounds like a recipe for frequent interruptions of service.

do we have any idea after the initial cost of building the thing how much subvention will be required?

Ham'nd'egger

invincibleirish wrote: »

Are there many Commuters going to Limerick from north of Ennis, and many Galway/Limerick Commuters? (who arent already using the hourly 51 bus or driving?)

if bus and train are taking the same time, going from the same place in Limerick to the same place in Galway, and assuming Bus is cheaper, then who is going to use the train?

The last figures I heard was over 600 commuters a day. http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0207/rail.html

That equates to over 8,000 a week and some 400,000 a year, assuming all trips made are returns. Not bad between two stations at all.

invincibleirish

Hamndegger wrote: »

The last figures I heard was over 600 commuters a day. http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0207/rail.html

That equates to over 8,000 a week and some 400,000 a year, assuming all trips made are returns. Not bad between two stations at all.

the figures you quote are Ennis-Limerick, 600 is pretty poor given the number of services on the timetable.

Ham'nd'egger

invincibleirish wrote: »

the figures you quote are Ennis-Limerick, 600 is pretty poor given the number of services on the timetable.

600+ people in and back out between just two stations actually isn't too bad at all. Outside of Dublin's commuter lines, the figures would compare well for a shuttle service between two set points. This number will increase when the line to Athenry opens along with the extra stations.

Tadhg17

How many people would go from Cobh-Cork and back on a daily basis(excluding intermediate stations). Would it be more/less than 600 a day?

Ham'nd'egger

Tadhg17 wrote: »

How many people would go from Cobh-Cork and back on a daily basis(excluding intermediate stations). Would it be more/less than 600 a day?

I would expect to be far higher than 600. As far as I know, there isn't a direct bus service from Cork to Cobh hence it's good train links.

Chris_533976

No, there is definately no bus service from Cork to Cobh. Incidentally, there is no bus station in Cobh and the only bus is an unofficial one that runs round the town occasionally.

ga2re2t

invincibleirish wrote: »

this goes with the point i made already, if you are one of the many people who will be commuting between Limerick/Galway on a regular basis (:p) and your options are a slow expensive train, or a cheap bus, both averaging similar times between the 2 points, then bus wil prove a far more attractive option.

To some people, time is money, and as many people find it difficult to work (i.e. read and use a laptop) on a bus, then the cost of the train is a mute point to such people. I suppose it all boils down to the profile of those people who will use the WRC. Will they primarily be "business folk" who can reap the benefits of working on the train, or will the majority of passengers not gain anything from taking the train?

Has the cost of a ticket from Limerick to Galway been estimated? How do they compare to the bus?
Bus Eireann:
Single: 12.60
Midweek return: 20.00
Adult 10 journey: 54.90

Citylink:
Single: 12.00
Day return: 14.00
Month return: 17.00

IE prices for Clara(Offaly) to Galway (about the same distance as Limerick-Galway):
Single: 17.30
Day return: 17.30
Monthly return: 30.50

How will monthly and annual tickets compare?

KC61

ga2re2t wrote: »

To some people, time is money, and as many people find it difficult to work (i.e. read and use a laptop) on a bus, then the cost of the train is a mute point to such people. I suppose it all boils down to the profile of those people who will use the WRC. Will they primarily be "business folk" who can reap the benefits of working on the train, or will the majority of passengers not gain anything from taking the train?

Has the cost of a ticket from Limerick to Galway been estimated? How do they compare to the bus?
Bus Eireann:
Single: 12.60
Midweek return: 20.00
Adult 10 journey: 54.90

Citylink:
Single: 12.00
Day return: 14.00
Month return: 17.00

IE prices for Clara(Offaly) to Galway (about the same distance as Limerick-Galway):
Single: 17.30
Day return: 17.30
Monthly return: 30.50

How will monthly and annual tickets compare?

IÉ have yet to establish a fares structure, but will probably have a lower fare than usual to promote the route.

paulm17781

KC61 wrote: »

IÉ have yet to establish a fares structure, but will probably have a lower fare than usual to promote the route.

Ah good. Extra subsidy to flog a dead horse.