Western Rail Corridor

Judgement Day

Services on the WRC will be provided by railcars but which type? Will there be spare 22000 type inter-city railcars or will the service depend on the awful commuter railcars – I think we all know the answer!
The new 22000 railcars are promoted as the ‘greenest’ trains in Europe – in what sense I wonder? They were built at great expense in South Korea by a Japanese/South Korean consortium and largely paid for by EU funding, and then shipped halfway across the World to Ireland – Very green! Why could they not have been built in Spain (which is in the EU and nearby) by CAF who built the latest generation of railcars for NIR and the Mk IV inter-city stock for the Dublin/Cork line.
They never seem to be shutdown and consume gallons of fuel needlessly all day even when out of service – Very green! At terminal stations like Connolly they cause a great deal of air pollution – whatever happened to the policy of shutting down engines on arrival which applied to locomotives?
The railcars have almost no capacity to carry bicycles – Very green!
IE’s industrial relations are so bad that anywhere the railcars operate all parcels (even internal IE’s mail are carried by private road courier) and even if the staff agreed to deal with parcels traffic there is nowhere to store same so poorly thought out is the design of these units – Very green!

C.I.E.......Complete Incompetence Expected. :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

paulm17781

They never shut down locomotives. Definitely not the MK3. They're less likely to start when shutdown and it's bad for the engine parts. It is also more economical to leave them on than to shut them down and start them up several times a day.

Ckal

KC61 wrote: »

The trains will be operated by railcars, and will operate out from Galway to Athenry, where the driver will switch ends and the train will then continue to Limerick.

There will be no need to switch trains.

At Limerick Junction there is a direct curve linking the line from Limerick to Platform 1, thereby enabling direct Galway/Cork trains should that be required.

Oh, I understand now. Thanks!

And by railcars, do you mean the trains like the blue and green commuter trains?

Victor

The 22000s are 'green' in the sense that new generation diesels are more energy efficient than before and use diesel that produce less sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxides.

"They were built at great expense in South Korea by a Japanese/South Korean consortium" - so? The cost of transport by ship is slight when compared tothe amount of fuel they will use over their lifetime.

"and largely paid for by EU funding," - were they?

"The railcars have almost no capacity to carry bicycles – Very green!" - more bicycle spaces are being fited.

Judgement Day

Never heard of a Mk3 locomotive?? If my poor feeble memory serves me right there used to be signs at both Connolly and Heuston advising drivers to shut down their locomotives on arrival. In other countries (excluding Nth.America) it is common practice to shut down locomotives and railcars when not in use. I think in North America it is to do with using water rather than special coolants in the engines which necessitates leaving them idling. Quite apart from the waste of fuel - 4 gallons an hour in an 071 I seem to recall - the polluting of the atmosphere at enclosed terminal stations is quite atrocious.

Judgement Day

"The railcars have almost no capacity to carry bicycles – Very green!" - more bicycle spaces are being fited.[/quote]


What are they going to do, remove some of the seats??

Any answer to my point about Fastrack?

Not looking for a fight Victor but you are sounding a bit like Barry Kenny.:):)

Sponge Bob

Judgement Day wrote: »

What are they going to do, remove some of the seats??

Any answer to my point about Fastrack?

Not looking for a fight Victor

Listen, its immaterial what railcar/ trainlet they use or how its configured.

1. There are No drivers available in Limerick or in Galway
2. The recruitment of drivers is embargoed

Therefore the service cannot run 6 times a day from early 2009 because it is now too late to recruit drivers and train them up . It is possible that trained drivers could transfer to Galway or Limerick in the interim were Irish Rail to let them.

Ham'nd'egger

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Listen, its immaterial what railcar/ trainlet they use or how its configured.

1. There are No drivers available in Limerick or in Galway
2. The recruitment of drivers is embargoed

Therefore the service cannot run 6 times a day from early 2009 because it is now too late to recruit drivers and train them up . It is possible that trained drivers could transfer to Galway or Limerick in the interim were Irish Rail to let them.

Irish Rail ran internal recruitment campaigns for drivers in Galway three times in the last 18 months in anticipation of additional services to and from the West as well as taking on and training more drivers out of Westport. Galway has a small surplus of drivers in the last few years with the phasing out of freight workings in the area, deployment of drivers from Athlone, Roscommon and Ballinasloe. Cutting times in the west will also open up some additional hours to cover driving slots.

Limerick, as you state is having issues but are also taking on drivers; don't forget that they are taken in house. Under the current training programme, a trainee taken on tomorrow could be passed out before the summer, well in time for the new service.

KC61

It is likely that the service will be operated by the 2700 Class railcar, with the sets currently in use on the Tralee line being redeployed to Limerick where the entire class will be based.

These may be supplemented by a 22000 Class railcar on certain key services.

Judgement Day

So that's it then - almost half a billion Euros are being spent on the WRC and Midleton line reopenings and the service is to be operated with dreadul sardine cans. A few million couldn't have been allocated to provide some quality stock? It's a bit like building a state of the art motorway for buses and then putting on Bianconi's Long Cars (horse drawn) to run services.

If a private company were doing both projects they would have been done for a fraction of the cost and every possible source of revenue would have then been pursued to recoup the cost - bicycles, parcels, express parcels in special converted railcars (the 2700 class with seats removed!!!!)etc.etc.

C.I.E. ..........Courtesy Is Exceptional.

KC61

The 2700 Class can carry bicycles - they all have racking fitted. They can also operate to 75mph, which will mean that they can operate on the WRC at line speed.

The reality is that there is no more rolling stock available, and the Government wasn't going to fund brand new rolling stock for the route.

There is a possibility that the main Galway-Limerick Junction and v.v. services in the morning and evening will use a 22000 Class railcar, with the rest operated by 2700 Class but what other stock would you suggest?

The 2700 Class is currently undergoing a mid-life refurbishment programme, and are viewed as regional railcars, which will operate all regional services out of Limerick, i.e. Limerick-Nenagh-Ballybrophy; Limerick-Limerick Junction; Limerick Junction-Waterford-Rosslare Europort; Limerick-Ennis-Galway, with one set being outbased in Ballina for use on the shuttle to/from Manulla Junction.

This will leave the 2600 Class to operate Mallow-Cork-Cobh/Midleton, and the 2800 and 29000 Class railcars operating the Connolly centred services.

There is talk of bicycle racking being fitted to the 22000 Class also - there may have to be some seating removed to do so however.

Chris_533976

So what kind of services will we see? Is there going to be JUST a Galway - Limerick service, or will they do Galway - Limerick Junction or a Galway - Cork service?

Will all this be scuppered by ludicrous services just from Galway - Limerick with no sensible way of getting to Limerick junction?

KC61

Chris_533976 wrote: »

So what kind of services will we see? Is there going to be JUST a Galway - Limerick service, or will they do Galway - Limerick Junction or a Galway - Cork service?

Will all this be scuppered by ludicrous services just from Galway - Limerick with no sensible way of getting to Limerick junction?

I'm not privy to what exactly is planned, but until a passing loop is installed at Sixmilebridge (this will be part of the Limerick resignalling project), I can certainly say that it won't be possible to have a full clockface service on the route.

I would expect that there will be a mix of:
1) Commuter services
2) Galway-Limerick Junction
3) Galway-Limerick

It is simply not going to be possible to have connections out of every train as I can't see a clockface schedule being possible initially. Hence some will probably terminate in Limerick.

However, it is possible that some may continue to Cork or Waterford.

aliveandkicking

Judgement Day wrote: »

So that's it then - almost half a billion Euros are being spent on the WRC and Midleton line reopenings and the service is to be operated with dreadul sardine cans. A few million couldn't have been allocated to provide some quality stock? It's a bit like building a state of the art motorway for buses and then putting on Bianconi's Long Cars (horse drawn) to run services.
If a private company were doing both projects they would have been done for a fraction of the cost and every possible source of revenue would have then been pursued to recoup the cost - bicycles, parcels, express parcels in special converted railcars (the 2700 class with seats removed!!!!)etc.etc.

C.I.E. ..........Courtesy Is Exceptional.

No it's not because the WRC is far from state of the art. It's a single track curvy route with a line speed of 75mph. What's the point in wasting millions on top quality rolling stock capable of doing 120mph for a line that can do only 75? The railcars are more than adequate.

As for parcels etc., well believe it or not parcels are already getting from Limerick to Galway without any problems as it is. You can't just create artificial demand for a service just because you open a train line. And what makes you think it is economically viable to move parcels by train between the two cities considering it will probably be quicker and cheaper to drive directly? By train you need to load a van, drive to the train station unload the van onto the train, have another van and driver waiting at the other end, load that van etc. whereas without the train you need one van one driver one journey. For such a short journey it is not viable to move parcels by train.

Ham'nd'egger

Chris_533976 wrote: »

So what kind of services will we see? Is there going to be JUST a Galway - Limerick service, or will they do Galway - Limerick Junction or a Galway - Cork service?

Will all this be scuppered by ludicrous services just from Galway - Limerick with no sensible way of getting to Limerick junction?

It will be 7 services a day and it will absorb the Ennis service. As it stands now, Limerick has shuttle links from the Dublin-Cork service about once every two hours each way, all of which meet Ennis departures until 19:30PM. On the outbound Ennis services, they all meet Dublin services save one departure in the evening so the current links are there. It will just be Galway-Limerick service as linking the whole timetable to a Dublin-Cork service opens all services including that towards Galway to delays in the event of a failure anywhere whereas the current shuttle is merely meeting the mainline and can run ahead or late as required.

Chris_533976

Sounds like a bit of a mess to me. To travel from Galway to Cork you need to do Galway - Limerick, Limerick - Limerick Junction and then Limerick Junction to Cork.

With the amount of people who use the Bus Eireann Galway - Cork service you'd think that CIE would want a slice of that pie. With what they're planning, noone will go from the bus service to teh train service.

KC61

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Sounds like a bit of a mess to me. To travel from Galway to Cork you need to do Galway - Limerick, Limerick - Limerick Junction and then Limerick Junction to Cork.

With the amount of people who use the Bus Eireann Galway - Cork service you'd think that CIE would want a slice of that pie. With what they're planning, noone will go from the bus service to teh train service.

Not necessarily, some services may go from Galway direct to Limerick Junction, with one change there for either Cork or Waterford. There may even be direct services to Cork or Waterford from Galway.

We will just have to wait and see, as I the plans have not been finalised yet.

KC61

Hamndegger wrote: »

It will just be Galway-Limerick service as linking the whole timetable to a Dublin-Cork service opens all services including that towards Galway to delays in the event of a failure anywhere whereas the current shuttle is merely meeting the mainline and can run ahead or late as required.

That is not necessarily true - some services may be through Galway-Limerick Junction. This is still in the planning stage and has not been finalised.

Ham'nd'egger

KC61 wrote: »

That is not necessarily true - some services may be through Galway-Limerick Junction. This is still in the planning stage and has not been finalised.

It is the case as it stands and it will be so into the medium term, 2010 at the very earliest. Remember, there is not much window to play with in terms of time changing in the 2009 timetable for Galway given that Dublin-Cork is both the flagship train and the only one on a clock face timetable, it is the least adaptable. There is also a new commuter service to and from Nenagh to schedule, work in Replacement of the signaling and track around Limerick station, delays and padding from the Kildare project works and full introduction of the 22000 set and their better timings will be more crucial elements to sort out before a more practical timetable could be implemented.

That being said, it probably be more beneficial to work through if possible as it will open up the midlands and west to Cork with minimal changes and it would also take pressure off Limerick station which will be stretched with the huge amount of additional traffic passing through

Poxyshamrock

KC61 wrote: »

That is not necessarily true - some services may be through Galway-Limerick Junction. This is still in the planning stage and has not been finalised.

How???

There's no direct curve from Ennis to Limerick Junction.

Judgement Day

aliveandkicking wrote: »

No it's not because the WRC is far from state of the art. It's a single track curvy route with a line speed of 75mph. What's the point in wasting millions on top quality rolling stock capable of doing 120mph for a line that can do only 75? The railcars are more than adequate.

As for parcels etc., well believe it or not parcels are already getting from Limerick to Galway without any problems as it is. You can't just create artificial demand for a service just because you open a train line. And what makes you think it is economically viable to move parcels by train between the two cities considering it will probably be quicker and cheaper to drive directly? By train you need to load a van, drive to the train station unload the van onto the train, have another van and driver waiting at the other end, load that van etc. whereas without the train you need one van one driver one journey. For such a short journey it is not viable to move parcels by train.

You're obviously are not a regular user of 2700 class railcars for long distance travel or you would not talk such nonsense - they are designed for commuting i.e. about 30/40 mins journey time and just because CIE/IE have seen fit to inflict them on Sligo and Rosslare inter-city passengers does not mean they are adequate. They are noisy, either too hot or too cold and have miserably small tables when, indeed, there are any.

My point which you choose to ignore is that having spent almost 500 million on the two lines some thought should have been given to providing stock!!
Your point about trying to create an artificial demand for parcels traffic is completely illogical and with that sort of attitude you should get a job with CIE/IE - you would go far! You might as well say why put on a train service at all given that people have been managing to get between Galway and Limerick without one all these years.

C.I.E. Come In Early and wait all day :P:P:P:P:P:P:P

KC61

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

How???

There's no direct curve from Ennis to Limerick Junction.

The train may well operate from Galway-Athenry-Limerick-Limerick Junction, i.e. a through train from Galway to Limerick Junction.

It would call at Limerick en route.

Judgement Day

aliveandkicking wrote: »

No it's not because the WRC is far from state of the art. It's a single track curvy route with a line speed of 75mph. What's the point in wasting millions on top quality rolling stock capable of doing 120mph for a line that can do only 75? The railcars are more than adequate.

As for parcels etc., well believe it or not parcels are already getting from Limerick to Galway without any problems as it is. You can't just create artificial demand for a service just because you open a train line. And what makes you think it is economically viable to move parcels by train between the two cities considering it will probably be quicker and cheaper to drive directly? By train you need to load a van, drive to the train station unload the van onto the train, have another van and driver waiting at the other end, load that van etc. whereas without the train you need one van one driver one journey. For such a short journey it is not viable to move parcels by train.

Thinking about it again your comments about parcels traffic are even more ridiculous than I first realised. Your arguement about a van driving to a station unloading and then a van meeting the train and unloading and loading another van is patent nonsense. For a start FASTRACK is theoretically designed for the one-off parcel from a customer (individual or company) so a van might not be involved at all at either end - so would would it be cheaper for me to hire a van in Wexford and drive to say Westport rather than send my parcel station to station and have someone collect, or pay a bit extra for delivery (often by station staff or taxi).
In a company situation: A company with parcels for all over Ireland arrives at the station and deposits their parcels which are then forwarded on the next train and dispersed as required to their various destinations - your alternative the driver drives all over Ireland - taking how many days - or the company buys a fleet of vans.

CIE/IE's basic flawed thinking is the same as yours - instead of seeing the railway system as a conveyor belt with trains running empty or full (and better if full) see Fastrack as a nuisance and have priced it out of the market instead of undercutting their rivals which would be easy to do.

I could go on but given that you are probably employed by CIE/IE......


C.I.E.......Crucifies Irish Engineers :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

KC61

Hamndegger wrote: »

It is the case as it stands and it will be so into the medium term, 2010 at the very earliest. Remember, there is not much window to play with in terms of time changing in the 2009 timetable for Galway given that Dublin-Cork is both the flagship train and the only one on a clock face timetable, it is the least adaptable. There is also a new commuter service to and from Nenagh to schedule, work in Replacement of the signaling and track around Limerick station, delays and padding from the Kildare project works and full introduction of the 22000 set and their better timings will be more crucial elements to sort out before a more practical timetable could be implemented.

That being said, it probably be more beneficial to work through if possible as it will open up the midlands and west to Cork with minimal changes and it would also take pressure off Limerick station which will be stretched with the huge amount of additional traffic passing through

I am fully aware of the matters involved in pathing these trains. Nenagh is already scheduled and is not an issue here.

The annual timetable process lasts right up until October each year, and invariably changes over the period running up to October numerous times and even later (esp. if a certain Westmeath deputy gets her spoke in!).

There is nothing to say that at least several of the trains could operate through to Limerick Junction and back to Galway, using extensions of the current service to/from the Junction. In fact I would say it is essential for at least the key morning and evening services.

Nothing is cast into stone!!!

Ham'nd'egger

Judgement Day wrote: »

You're obviously are not a regular user of 2700 class railcars for long distance travel or you would not talk such nonsense - they are designed for commuting i.e. about 30/40 mins journey time and just because CIE/IE have seen fit to inflict them on Sligo and Rosslare inter-city passengers does not mean they are adequate. They are noisy, either too hot or too cold and have miserably small tables when, indeed, there are any.

My point which you choose to ignore is that having spent almost 500 million on the two lines some thought should have been given to providing stock!!
Your point about trying to create an artificial demand for parcels traffic is completely illogical and with that sort of attitude you should get a job with CIE/IE - you would go far! You might as well say why put on a train service at all given that people have been managing to get between Galway and Limerick without one all these years.

C.I.E. Come In Early and wait all day :P:P:P:P:P:P:P

Irish Rail was preparing to use Mark 2 and Mark 3 carriages along with loco haulage on both Sligo and Rosslare services until local politicians kicked up blue murder over the age of them. The company was forced to relent and use "new" railcars" instead, thus cutting back on suburban services that the railcars were meant to serve on.

Judgement Day

Hamndegger wrote: »

Irish Rail was preparing to use Mark 2 and Mark 3 carriages along with loco haulage on both Sligo and Rosslare services until local politicians kicked up blue murder over the age of them. The company was forced to relent and use "new" railcars" instead, thus cutting back on suburban services that the railcars were meant to serve on.

I think that this is something of an Urban Myth which keeps on popping up on message boards such as IRN and Rail Users Ireland but I have yet to see any evidence of CIE/IE ever giving in to public opinion or political pressure. In case you didn't know the Board (aka CIE/IE) have the opposite to the Midas Touch and everything and everyone that they come into contact with turns to s....t - ask Michael Lowry and the crane hire fellow who used to be Chairman.

C.I.E.........Crush In Everybody :D:D:D

Victor

Judgement Day, call me Barry Kenny all you like (honestly, I don't swear that much), but can you tone it down a little?

---

It is proposed to remove a number of seats from 22000s to allow bikes to be carried. I have a rather bad drawing, so I don't know what the details are. Hopefully fold-down seats will be fitted.

Chris_533976 wrote: »

So what kind of services will we see? Is there going to be JUST a Galway - Limerick service, or will they do Galway - Limerick Junction or a Galway - Cork service?

Will all this be scuppered by ludicrous services just from Galway - Limerick with no sensible way of getting to Limerick junction?

I would look for Galway-Limerick Junction and overlap that with Limerick-Waterford.

KC61

Judgement Day wrote: »

My point which you choose to ignore is that having spent almost 500 million on the two lines some thought should have been given to providing stock!!

I'm not sure why any additional stock should be provided for Midleton, given it is a commuter service of only 30 minutes duration?

I would like to think in the longer run newer stock will operate on the WRC, but there may, as I say, still be one 22000 unit yet!

corktina

bear in mind that that figure that they say its costing will include at least some expenditure that would have been made anyway..its not neceesarily NEW money.....accountants have to justify their salaries dont they

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

bear in mind that that figure that they say its costing will include at least some expenditure that would have been made anyway..its not neceesarily NEW money.....accountants have to justify their salaries dont they

No - both the so called 'Western Rail Corridor' and the Cobh Junction/Midleton line were closed and nothing was going to be spent on them. My point all along is that if massive amounts of money are to be poured into rail projects then a maximum return must follow or it will undermine the case for any further investment in similar projects. I just don't think that CIE/IE have any credibilty left as a transport company - a property development company or a demolition company yes but running trains no!!! Some form of privatisation is the only answer.:):)